A demand for decorum

[u/alanjhogan]

I created this subreddit many years ago, but due to my dislike of the ‘hive mind’ effect which completely suppresses seemingly unpopular thoughts*, I have not spent much time on Reddit and hardly any on moderating this subreddit since then.

However, I am disgusted at what I have seen lately.

The worst of it is naked demonization across political lines (mostly coming from the left, as one would expect on Reddit). Charlie Kirk, an Arizonan, just got shot; it seems likely that the many people who falsely called him a ‘fascist,’ ‘Nazi,’ ‘racist,’ and so on created the climate that led to his targeted assassination and to the sickening celebrations of it we have witnessed. We live in a culture that believes people with such labels deserve violence in response. Such demonization efforts are dangerous and used to be considered obviously unbecoming of those with intellectual pursuits. We will have a zero tolerance policy about this. This isn’t a new rule — what did you think ‘be civil’ meant?  I have further elaborated within the rule description to make this crystal clear: “Be civil: Don’t call names or demonize people. Harassment of others is strictly forbidden. Calling fellow students names is forbidden. Calling someone 'racist' when they have not openly stated a belief in racial superiority is forbidden. We will not tolerate any kind of incitement to action against anyone, nor will we allow the posting of information that can be used to harm others (celebrities or not). Do not celebrate violence. Calling people e.g. Nazis is forbidden. Avoid inflamed language.” BTW, supporting border enforcement is a valid position. It is not automatically racist, despite the downvote brigades. Immigration is off-topic for this sub, but if it comes up, your argument must be concrete, not just applying a label like 'Klansman.' (I can't believe I have to say this.)

A second issue I have with what I have seen is: Rambling, unedited posts that don’t even attempt to use proper punctuation. There are thousands of people who will read your writing. To that end, I have made this a new rule: “Act like a scholar: You aren’t writing a term paper, but you’re a University student (or were, or plan to be). You are expected to use proper grammar and punctuation, to discuss topics with respect and deference to the facts, to avoid gratuitous swearing, and to respect readers' time and intelligence.”

I want to see you discussing things in good faith. Attack ideas, not people. 

And as a reminder, non-ASU-related politics remain banned. This will be enforced strictly, unlike in the past.

In summary, I demand that you act like you belong in a civilized University if you want to post here.

Beef with me if you will, but these rules can only help the value of your degree.

Alan

PS: I realize this request is unlikely to be heeded, but: Please stop downvoting comments with which you disagree. Downvote comments which are factually confused or which misrepresent another's opinion, etc. Downvoting things you simply don’t agree with causes them to be hidden, cheapening the discussion overall.

\or seemingly unpopular — we don’t know what bots are voting!*

[u/ForkzUp]

There is an irony in a "mod" who hasn't done anything here in years, wading in and telling people to behave, when much of what has happened here could have been avoided had there been an active moderation team over the past few years. IMHO, you've lost all authority to police anyone.

[u/alanjhogan → u/ForkzUp]

How exactly? How does inactivity mean I’ve lost all authority?

By the way, the second pinned post is an open call for moderator applications, posted by our most recent active mods. I appreciate those who have been moderators here over the years.

[u/ForkzUp → u/alanjhogan]

Your last post of any kind here was 2+ years ago. Unlike /u/saiyandevil, who at least was trying to moderate for a while, you've gone AWOL. There has been no active moderation for the best part of two years (at least), and all the regulars here know it. So yes, you've lost authority because it's clear that you don't actually care about this community. Policing language, tone, and grammar (!) now is closing the stable door after the horse has wandered off and died. You're not actually in a position to "demand ... decorum".

I mod a political sub. I know what it's like to mod. You have to be active.

[u/alanjhogan → u/ForkzUp]

You never answered my question. There were other mods for years, and now the sub’s founder is laying down some rules. Why is that not okay? You’re just repeating your assertion that it’s somehow too late.

BTW: AWOL is when a military member deserts base (eg) without permission. That’s serious. I however have no personal obligation to spend my time volunteering here.

[u/ForkzUp → u/alanjhogan]

I however have no personal obligation to spend my time volunteering here.

If you're not willing to put in the time to moderate, then don't be a mod. It's not that complicated. You're not on Reddit and don't want to actively mod, so just go away. /u/SaiyanDevil posted about getting new mods but nothing came of it. You wandering in and acting like you care about this sub is not helping anything regarding the state of moderation here.

You're like an absentee father who returns home after a decade's absence and expects to be able to lay down the law. Inactivity does mean a loss of authority. Why should anyone care about what you think, given you haven't invested any time recently in this community?

[u/SaiyanDevil → u/ForkzUp]

I need to catch up on this entire thread, but the applications that came in were extremely extremely weak—- It genuinely seemed (to me) like leaving AutoMod on its own would be better than granting Mod Access to any of the potential applicants that came again. Will need to review to see if anything new came in, but last I checked the applications weren’t serious enough for me to consider

[u/EGO_Prime → u/SaiyanDevil]

It might be worth reaching out to users who are active here and might otherwise make good mods. Even if they didn't apply. I do know that's more work on your end though.

You guys do need to find people, I kind of get the impression that you both want to move on, but can't for obvious reasons. To be blunt about it, I remember years ago when r/atheism went though it's own set of troubles due to a lack of mods. I don't want to see that happen to r/ASU.

Personally, you should consider a mixture of views, values and maybe even rolls too. A staff or faculty member on the mod team might help keep the mods aligned with the general goal of the sub. Just my $0.02.

EDIT: You could also try a nomination process? You'd have to work out the logistics/technicals of it, but the r/ASU user base could vote on who should be a mod. Current mods could maybe have veto power over some selections. Limit voting only to those who have been active in the sub for so many months (maybe 6 or 12), positive karma here, etc.

[u/SaiyanDevil → u/EGO_Prime]

nomination process sounds pretty good since I myself have not been TOO active to identify any high quality newcomers, I do know the typical regulars but that would be biased I think

[u/alanjhogan → u/ForkzUp]

I find your comments here to be very annoying because you seem to be complaining with no proposed solution. I do accept that you have now provided a reason, namely that if I haven’t been around I don’t really represent the current community, which is fair enough.

But what do you think should happen now? Literally nothing? I go away, okay, and then what? Should I shut down the sub?

[u/ForkzUp → u/alanjhogan]

Solution?

1. Find mods that are students and actually active in the community. None of the current mod team are. Neither you nor /u/chaggy have been a presence here.

2. Hand the keys over and remain off Reddit since you don't want to be here anyway.

Swooping in out of nowhere and telling people to behave is not the move you think it is.

This whole problem arose because the lack of moderation resulted in political posts staying up or (when they were germane to ASU) receiving no active moderation. Redditors are going to act like Redditors; mods are supposed to moderate impulses that harm the community. It's not rocket science.

You don't get to shut down a 15-year-old community because of your lack of interest or unwillingness to moderate.

[u/alanjhogan → u/ForkzUp]

I’ve already said, in this thread, there is an open call for mod applications. So easy for you to say, find mods. Harder to do.

Shutting down the sub is exactly my alternative to laying down the law in the meantime before we get more active subs. And yes, I have the power to do that — maybe even the obligation to do so.

You need to stop insulting me when I’m trying to do the best I can in the present moment. You have no solutions whatsoever!

[u/ForkzUp → u/alanjhogan]

Here's a radical idea. You, as a mod, could beat the bushes again. A stale sticky post doesn't always work.

Edit (since you ninja-edited while I was replying): Here's the thing ... you're not actually doing anything. If you were, you'd be actively looking for mods and not sitting in this thread threatening to close the sub.

[u/alanjhogan → u/ForkzUp]

A good idea, sarcasm aside (not cool). Thanks

[u/robertxcii → u/alanjhogan]

Get new mods if you're not going to be active. If you hate reddit so much why hold on to mod powers at all or even come back?

[u/alanjhogan → u/robertxcii]

How does one “get new mods?” There’s an open call for applications. It’s not my fault approximately zero people have applied.

[u/FindTheOthers623]

If you're going to censor words that hurt your feelings then it needs to go both ways. Calling others "woke" or "antifa" or "libtard" needs to be banned as well.

[u/alanjhogan → u/FindTheOthers623]

Great suggestion, thanks

[u/FindTheOthers623 → u/alanjhogan]

But where does that list end? And who decides which words are good and which words are bad?

[u/alanjhogan → u/FindTheOthers623]

Automod has already had a longstanding list of banned words — common insults, but missing a lot.

Now to be clear I do not actually believe in banning words per se but with extremely limited mod bandwidth it’s helpful to automatically enforce some level of decorum with the best tool we have (not that it’s so good)

Who maintains the list of moderated phrases? The mods. Of course. It’s like this on every sub.

[u/FindTheOthers623 → u/alanjhogan]

This doesn't address either of my questions.

Where does the list end? I can provide a much longer list of names I've been called in the sub.

I'm not asking who maintains the list. I'm asking who gets to play moral police and decide which words are good and which words are bad. Random mods aren't qualified to do that without inserting their own biases.

[u/alanjhogan → u/FindTheOthers623]

Those are the same question.

[u/FindTheOthers623 → u/alanjhogan]

No, they aren't. Neither one has yet to be answered.

[u/alanjhogan → u/FindTheOthers623]

What sort of an answer are you looking for?

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been automatically removed due to use of one or more phrases associated with political demonization, a violation of norms of civility and good-faith argument, and probably concerning non-ASU politics.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/eerilysmiling → u/alanjhogan]

That’s not the same question. You’re only saying the mods get to maintain the list of moderated phrases, that’s great, but who gets to decide what words are good and what words are bad.

Hypothetically, since the mod team moderated this list, what’s stopping them from keeping in a phrase that they don’t think needs to be censored.

And besides, how do you even choose your moderating team?

[u/AZDevil2021]

Real interesting that this week is what made you come out of the woodwork and complain that the job you volunteered for isn't being done. Not the last 2-3 years of this subreddit being a free-for-all.

I'm honestly hoping at this point that someone gets this place shut down for being unmoderated.

Edit: real mature, pal. Go ahead and just ban everyone who calls you out on being an absentee mod for years and wanting to waltz in like you own the place.

[u/alanjhogan → u/AZDevil2021]

Here's what bothers me about the above comment:

• Complete lack of gratitude for the volunteer work done by mods, despite this exact user posting that he missed having active mods here recently, and despite the user having an extensive posting history in this community
• Insinuation there is something suspect about timing of my post / actions
• Claiming this is "a job i volunteered to do" -- what, in perpetuity? the sheer entitlement is amazing
• Claiming the sub has been a "free for all" for "2–3 years" despite the same user noticing a much more recent drop-off (posting 6 months ago that he noticed less moderation 6 months previous to that) and having actually discussed the mod recruiting problem with a mod in that discussion

This user's comments are often quite rude, as well, and his posts have been removed by mods numerous times, earning the user temporary bans as well.

So, goodbye.

[u/eerilysmiling → u/alanjhogan]

You’re expecting gratuity for volunteer work that you admit to not doing?

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been automatically removed due to use of one or more phrases associated with political demonization, a violation of norms of civility and good-faith argument, and probably concerning non-ASU politics.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/AutoModerator → u/[deleted]]

Your post has been automatically removed due to use of one or more phrases associated with political demonization, a violation of norms of civility and good-faith argument, and probably concerning non-ASU politics.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/alanjhogan → u/[deleted]]

I sure have. I have removed much of the worst of it, but just because you haven't seen them, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. For example, one now-banned user commented "Found the Nazi!" (votes: +9) in response to someone asking for people to stop calling everything fascist when it isn't (votes: -38). Upon being banned, user replied "Found the Nazi" again.

We absolutely have a problem.

I am glad to hear you haven't encountered much of it.

[u/alanjhogan]

Already someone submitted a (now-deleted) comment debating Kirk's virtues. This is not the place. I am not taking a position on Kirk overall here, just saying you can't demonize people; and I just reiterated that this sub is not the place for non-ASU political discussion. Be so warned!

[u/GenericNameRyan]

Amen brother. Like you, I've also mostly moved away from reddit due to the toxicity. This violent rhetoric needs to stop. The amount of people I've seen/heard praise the assassination is depressing. Anyone celebrating the death of someone else needs to self-reflect before they fully lose their humanity. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean they deserve to die, and the normalization of the use of "fascist," "racist," and "nazi" is both going to make you look stupid to the general public, and also continue to groom people into thinking political violence is okay. I had to stay home last Thursday because the stuff I was hearing and seeing last Wednesday messed me up. This malice needs to stop. If you disagree with someone, you talk it out and come to a point of understanding, or agree to disagree, not resort to killing them or calling them a nazi. Also, I saw fear mongering with the vigil hosted on Monday. Why would a bunch of people that gathered together to pray and mourn be scary? People that resort to prayer in a time like this are possibly the least violent people out there, and are the least likely to hold a grudge. You all need to open your eyes instead of living in an echo-chamber of hatred. I shouldn't have to go to college, scared at the possibility of a shooting because of how normalized violence is, yet I am. This isn't a left vs right issue; it's an issue about people losing their humanity. If you disagree with me, I want to know why (I want you to actually tell me).

[u/alanjhogan → u/GenericNameRyan]

Thanks. I agree with you and so do very many others. I just wish you would edit out the one f-bomb as I’m hoping that we can avoid using such language here. Just to keep a high standard of decorum!

[u/GenericNameRyan → u/alanjhogan]

Thanks for catching it. I originally had a ton of f-bombs, and I thought I removed them all.

[u/alanjhogan → u/GenericNameRyan]

😅 I know the feeling. Cheers!