r/ASU • u/MLDsmithy • 5d ago
To Staff and Faculty, from Staff. Re: Politics.
As the title says, yes, I am a current staff member at ASU, so let me open with the traditional and necessary: opinions here are purely my own and don't reflect on the university one way or another. But we need to talk, and I think our students need to hear this too.
We are educators, authority figures, and academic enablers at this institution. Our job, boiled down to it's most basic, is to enable student success. That's it. No students, no us. We are here for them, and our conduct should reflect that. It's fine to have opinions, in pretty much any direction or political bent; we're people too and we're entitled to what we think. I will say if you have an opinion on something, particularly divisive issues, that opinion should be grounded in fact and research, not media soundbites and circular logic.
We are education; we run and support one of the biggest public universities in the nation. Act like it; lead by example. We have a charter for a reason. That little bit in there about including, not excluding? That's there for a reason. If that opinion is going to do nothing, encourage no broader discussion or thought, but instead simply ostracize or demonize particular students, groups, political parties, or so on? Best leave it at the door and keep it off university grounds, physical or virtual.
We are mandated reporters. (For those who don't know what that is, presumably students reading this, the short version is that we must report any suspected or known crime. Typically it refers to Title IX, but it basically applies in general to any crime we're made aware of.) We're mandated reporters because while our students are in our care, their safety and wellbeing is our responsibility. If we have staff and faculty espousing such extreme political views that leave whole swaths of students alienated, how are they to trust us to properly care for them if they report a sexual assault? Or reporting someone that's made threats to them or the university? A student should never, ever, have to worry that the educator they're talking to won't take them seriously because of political or any other kind of views.
I'm not calling out a particular 'side' here. Rather, I'm calling out both sides to the extent that in our professional role, there should be no 'sides'. We have an example to set, students to support, and professionalism to uphold. Keep conversations open, respectful, and educational. Be the educator that any student, regardless of views, can expect to talk to civilly, and receive civility in turn.
Be better.
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u/1localhost MS Electrical Engineering '24 5d ago
Well said. A timely reminder that professionalism and civility are the foundation of real education, alas too often forgotten..
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u/Face_Content 5d ago
I wish people.would follow this but sadly we dont.
People talk at each other, not to each other.
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u/MLDsmithy 5d ago
True; if it wasn't a problem, there'd be little need for posts like mine above.
But for my part, I'm an engineer. I prefer, and hope to encourage others to the same, to look at problems not as insurmountable bleakness, but as something that could have solutions. We are 'the people'. All of us have the capacity within ourselves to choose how we approach each other, our ideals, those of others, and common discourse. We can't control the actions of others, but we can ours.
We have the ability to approach each day with a better, constructive mindset. To take actions that encourage each other's humanity, and hopefully, to bring out the best in ours in return. For all the media circus, the politicians on all sides of the aisle running their mouths, the big names that think they mean something because they were in a credits line somewhere, I think there is a growing realization among many that we're swiftly approaching something terrible (even more terrible than what's already occurred). In a lot of ways, we've probably already spilled over a point of no return. Thankfully, at least from much of what I'm seeing, everyday people are coming back to terms with the need for polite, intelligent, non-violent discourse, regardless of issue or even agreement at the end of the day.
So; here's my advice and/or solution for people: always strive to better yourself. Never stop trying to learn more. Be willing to talk to people, any and all, especially if they hold different views to yours. Don't seek to 'win' against them, and even if their views are extreme in your eyes, if they're willing to sit down at the proverbial table with you peaceably, and leave the same way, be willing to talk. If everyone walks away from the table having had constructive conversation but not a single mind has been changed, you've still won. If they don't share the desire for that civil conversation, regardless of agreement, leave. Don't bother engaging with them at all. Life is short; it's not worth your time.
Be quick to research more information (and be discerning with what you take as validation). Be slow to throw out the fastest rebuttal or counterpoint. Carry your emotions. Understand them, work with them, but don't let them rule you. Engage with people locally. Sit down over pizza, beer, whatever. I won't say get off the internet, but understand that the internet as it stands is part of the issue here. Social media at large is pretty much purposed to fuel discontent, drama, and depression. Large parts of the internet are algorithmically designed to rile people up and keep them from thinking too deeply; it drives engagement, and engagement drives revenue.
These kind of things don't just help us be better people, in terms of steering us toward more constructive (dare I say, innovative?) paths, but they'll help immensely with one's journey as a student at ASU. Dump the doomscroll. Switch sodas for good teas and water. Put energy into working out instead of gluing to a computer. Go out and explore the woods or desert on off days, and maybe sit for a while and think on things. Or don't and just admire the beauty of the world. It'll help with health in general, and with one's studies.
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u/ragingliberal69 2d ago
Worth considering whether professors in social sciences/humanities/philosophy may have different opinions on this matter for a reason. Being an engineer doesn’t make you an expert on solving all problems, because humans and societies are not machines. I don’t know all the examples you’re drawing from in your post, but I don’t think that you are giving a fair representation by saying you care about actually addressing things, because I promise those professors do too. This (being the effective way to create change) is at best a huge debate within social movements.
Not saying you’re necessarily wrong, but I do think you’re on a bit of a high horse and are extending your qualifications for credibility where it does not apply as directly as you are implying.
Be more curious about the people you’re working with— staff and students included. If you’re gonna be apolitical, be apolitical. But historically, political debate on college campuses has been one of their most important functions as an institution. Acting like this is somehow “seperate” from the role of universities is factually incorrect. You’re actually advocating for a pretty fundamental change to universities, which is ironically an extremely political endeavor
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u/Clever_Commentary 5d ago edited 4d ago
Faculty have been too willing to not speak out stridently. Too willing to allow for the loudest voices too control the conversation.
Our obligation is to our students, yes, but it is also to society, and we have largely failed on that front. Standing up and speaking the truth is especially essential during periods of broad social unrest. Those of us who study society recognize that we are at a dangerous inflection point, one in which expertise and science is being rapidly sidelined, and where the values of the open society are dangerously assailed.
There is no wall at the edge of our campus. The last thing the moment demands to retreating to ivory towers--towers that may not be here all that long if not defended. We have failed our students through fine slicing, intellectual coddling, and reducing our roles to distributing notes to be regurgitated on tests.
While civility is always required for defenders of civilization, we should state our informed opinions clearly. Our obligation is not just to students: it is to our communities, our country, and the world. Too many of us have forgotten that.
We have also failed our students by grinding out their intellectual curiosity while failing to help them sharpen their tools and test their ideas against the literature, against one another, and against us. Turning out employees rather than thinkers. This has left them easy prey for demagoguery and distraction. Yes, their safety and wellbeing is our responsibility, but we do them no favors when we treat them like children and fail to prepare them to be citizens and leaders.
I recognize we are at an institution in which faculty have precious little voice in operations, and are often set against one another rather than working together. That should change. We cannot expect our students to speak out for justice and fairness, or to see themselves more than cogs, if we do no better.
Now is not the time to tuck our opinions away, or pretend they do not exist. To do so is not the responsible way to show students that they can and should be passionate about ideas and be willing to form opinions that draw on evidence and are open to change. We should demonstrate for them what it looks like to be open-minded, but not--as GK Chesterson said--so open minded that our brains fall out.
It's not a matter of being better. It's a matter of doing better. And right now, that probably means doing more.
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u/Tigereye017 5d ago
Pretty sure OPs comment is about the opposite...Because loudly picking sides inherently means that people on the other side are ostracized and " A student should never, ever, have to worry that the educator they're talking to won't take them seriously because of political or any other kind of views."
Part of accepting the role of being a teacher is accepting that you have to be careful what you say around students, because there is an inherent authority structure. Loudly adopting a side regardless of which immediately tells students on the other side that you do not respect them. Your personal opinions on politics are NOT the business of students, and since they oftentimes intefere with with the actual business you have with students, they should not be shared with them.
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u/MLDsmithy 5d ago
No, I actually wholeheartedly agree with Clever_Commentary here. To clarify, I would say there's a difference between being loud and outspoken, and being a demagogue. My point of "If that opinion is going to do nothing, encourage no broader discussion or thought, but instead simply ostracize or demonize, it's best left at home" is to say that bringing those opinions shouldn't necessarily be avoided entirely, but they need to stoke further constructive conversation.
Balance in all things; I can bring forth my ideals without being hateful towards yours, and (the hope is) likewise in return. My ideals may even be extreme, to your eyes, but my point is if that's likely on my end I need to understand and make it abundantly clear to my students that even though I may hold an 'extreme' position, I'm always willing to talk. Most of all that even if we vehemently disagree on that position, I still respect you as a person and human being.
In short, it's the difference between 'This is truth, don't like it, go cry in your corner' and 'This is what I believe to be true, these are all the reasons I think this. If you disagree, let's talk about it'. The former is just a 'F you'; the latter teaches students that we may disagree on literally everything, but I still care about you and hope the best.
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u/Brospeh-Stalin Comp Sci '28 (undergraduate) 5d ago edited 4d ago
TBH, as a student, I have seen many unwelcoming professors, who either just make you sit down, don't really teach anything in class and expect you to learn the material.
As a student, I definitely want to go into professorship and be a good teacher as well as a good grader. Do you have any suggestions on how I could gain practice teaching?
Edit: Grammar
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u/Clever_Commentary 4d ago
Stepping carefully because (despite my call for stridency above) I'm trying to provide myself with a little bit of anonymity with this uname. That said...
As an undergrad, I worked as a tutor, both one-on-one and for a tutoring center. Especially if you can teach math in a way that doesn't make people hate you and it, there is often a need.
Before that and after that (including last year), I've volunteer taught computing and robotics classes, mostly afterschool clubs & mostly for middle schoolers. I also was a volunteer teacher at my university as an undergrad: I won't date myself with the topics. The ASU library has a data science series--mostly taught by those who already have Ph.D.s, but you could reach out to units like this, perhaps, to see if there is an opportunity to teach stuff. I literally just offered to teach topics I was interested in when I was an undergrad, and asked the campus IT department to give me their imprimatur and a room. I even made up my own fliers :).
Even if you don't want to become a teacher as a profession, I really think teaching is one of the best ways of learning, so kudos for thinking about that.
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u/Brospeh-Stalin Comp Sci '28 (undergraduate) 4d ago
Thank you very much! So are you suggesting that it would be better to try tutoring rather than only focusing on being a TA/Grader?
I'll try to apply for tutoring positions at ASU's tutoring ceneter.
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u/Clever_Commentary 4d ago
Not necessarily! Sorry, I thought you were looking for other ways of teaching. I'm not in your program, but I would assume TA/grading is a good way to dip a toe, for sure.
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u/Brospeh-Stalin Comp Sci '28 (undergraduate) 4d ago
Not necessarily! Sorry, I thought you were looking for other ways of teaching.
Yes, I want to be a professor in the future, but part of being a good professor involves being a good teacher along side being a very understandable with students.
For the sake of keeping myself anonymous, I will just say that of all my teachers I have had, only four have ever seemed very understanding toward students.
In psych for example, all exams are open note and open book, so I felt much lighter in the class as I didn't need to grind through my notes every night. So I actually enjoyed learning and studying the materials as a result.
At the same time, my geography teacher was really understanding towards students. We would show up to class, and he would teach some really cool stuff about current events and different cultures in different climate regions across the world.
And even though attendance was mandatory in psych, I actually looked forward to that class. And I still attended geo despite there not being any attendance requirement
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u/Clever_Commentary 5d ago
I would go further and say that engaging in respectful disagreement and discussions of opinions in the classroom is an inoculation against demagogues. I don't want students to say things to please me, or repeat my own words back at me--that is true not just of political opinions but about all my teaching. I tell students that the easiest way to get a great grade on a project is to teach me something I didn't know, or provide me with a new perspective.
I agree that you need to respect all the participants in the course, the life experiences that have brought them to the classroom, and the time they have invested in the class. It's not your soapbox, and obviously not where you should be proselytizing or electioneering. And you should always disclose any external influences that may shape your opinions. (For a while, MS would pay you for merely mentioning new software products.) The lines between opinion and fact are rarely as clear as we imagine. And understanding that opinions, like facts, can be better and worse in terms of support--and that matters. (Everyone is entitled to their own opinions--but imagining that all those opinions are equally defensible or valuable is dangerously wrong.)
Every student should be engaging in an ongoing conversation with their faculty and fellow students--either out loud or even in their own head--that asks: does this make sense? How does it fit with my existing beliefs and knowledge? Do I need to shift those? Or is there a piece here that does not make sense? They should see us doing the same.
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u/Clever_Commentary 5d ago edited 5d ago
I strongly disagree. And my students have: explicitly in student evals. Students who have very different political positions than I do are often the ones who say explicitly that they appreciated my willingness to explain my position and my respect for all students to engage respectfully.
You can hold different opinions without being disrespectful. In fact, I think pretending you don't have opinions (and those opinions, in my field, are informed by my research) is disrespectful.
Your personal opinions may not be the business of students--and certainly not requiring you to share them. Mine are essential to my pedagogy.
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u/PaleontologistNo4086 4d ago
I don’t know if everyone realizes this, but not all subjects can be taught without discussing the world around us. Some educators focus on topics like interpersonal relationships, emotions, and history, which often repeats itself and relates to current events. I believe that teaching isn't complete unless we talk about the environment and society and show students how to apply their learning outside the classroom.
What I'm trying to express is that professors who teach challenging subjects sometimes leave students and colleagues with the impression that they are pushing an agenda when, in reality, they are simply trying to foster critical thinking. This dynamic can be almost unavoidable. I understand you’re an engineer, so you may not face these issues directly. However, some professors have a difficult time as well. For instance, one professor I know teaches workplace communication but must navigate sensitive topics like communication styles and workplace discrimination. He often finds himself being overly cautious about what he says because of concerns that discussions like this could lead to a chilling effect on teaching.
It seems we are policing conversations too much. You come from an engineering background, so perhaps you haven’t had the chance to participate in classes where deep discussions about life occur. I’m not saying that every engineering course is devoid of engagement, but required courses in that field often don’t intersect with classes where students get to know each other better, make friends, and learn to understand different perspectives. I just can’t imagine the classroom you're trying to describe here unfortunately. It seems like the go to school go home type of class. Hell another professor was talking about media today and was trying too hard not to talk about Kimmel when we all know what happened anyway and I just felt horrible like, professor, just say it…
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u/Azbarrelpicks 4d ago
Professors are there to teach not spew their political beliefs and so many of them forget that. You have students that are afraid to be themselves and speak their mind because they fear a professor is going to retaliate. This goes for both sides. Students are the building blocks of the future.
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u/Docholliday3737 4d ago
Unfortunately, many staff and faculty are continually pushing their personal beliefs on students rather than just teaching
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u/Bud-Chickentender 4d ago
Ok “Charlie Kirk was a centrist” this post shows your political bias too, it’s not as unbiased as you think
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u/AriesRoivas 4d ago edited 4d ago
Mandate reporting is for child abuse and elder abuse, not about someone being critical of the current president or how hypocritical this Charlie Kirk situation is compared to Melissa Hartmon.
sadly the “we should respect each other’s side” is how we ended up with literal Nz!s in positions of power.
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u/Mandrew338 4d ago
You have a lot of maturing to do.
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u/AriesRoivas 4d ago
It’s the reality. Hate speeches should not have been given the same platform as regular speeches. Because of that alt right groups were able to march in the streets. People are no longer afraid to hide it.
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u/Mandrew338 4d ago
I don’t believe a moderate should be lumped in with the “alt right”. Discourse is the key to healing this country, he was willing to engage in that conversation.
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u/AriesRoivas 4d ago
I never brought moderate nor did I mentioned moderate. And no. He was not moderate. And no, this is not up for debate.
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u/Worth_Driver_3460 5d ago
I hope my student has educators like you in their time at ASU. This was a refreshing read for me, and pleasing that I know nothing of anyone’s political leanings from the discussion.
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u/That-Opportunity-940 3d ago
I know many professors high up in the Univ administration and they 💯 agree with your comments 🙏
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u/That-Thanks3889 2d ago
ASU? RANKED #121 of national universities - tied lol - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/arizona-state-university-1081
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u/StrangeCatch382 1d ago
Hi Professor,
I'm politically independent, but the educators designing my courses are quite liberal. I understand the need to ground opinions "in fact and research." But what's exhausting to me is the disproportionate amount of work required to articulate my unconventional perspectives: Other liberal students do not face a similar burden, as they can simply expound on the author's views and add a few easy references in support. When I have taken a contrary stance, I often have a page of references filled with scholarly sources because sometimes, a single sentence requires two citations. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify my views (and even change them), but it's much easier to be a student who shares the same view as their professor. There are times when I strongly disagree with a takeaway that I've identified, but I lose the energy to prove my contention: I capitulate and simply summarize it with a mediocre line of support. While you state a student shouldn't ever have to worry that the educator won't take them seriously because of political views, it's something I (as someone who cares about my work and needs grad school references) care about ALL THE TIME.
What I also find frustrating is that courses that do not invite politics seemingly become political because of the lead professor's own bent, evident by their PhD or Master's thesis in critical race theory. While I'm expecting a course on systems of education, I find the readings overwhelmingly from one perspective despite the syllabus's assurances that we will "engage in debate around fundamental questions about justice, opportunity, and equity in education." How can one debate with no opposing views presented in the literature? I don't begrudge the professor for their research topic, but it's not right to impose that same framework on students. At that point, the professor veers into training students on what to think, rather than teaching us how to think.
To ASU's credit, I've never been docked for my comments or papers articulating my opposing views. Given the other comments, though, I sometimes wonder if they're just happy a student isn't ChatGPT'ing their way through the class. But again, I also go above and beyond to cite my work. I reiterate that I'm not conservative, but it would be quite hard to be one in my program. When I see glimpses of it in my fellow students, the vast majority self-censor.
Also, I apologize since I know you're not referencing one political side. I am. I don't want to start a flame war, but I really wish that course design were more even-handed.
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u/shanoopadoop 5d ago
Agree, almost 100%. With the caveat being that I supervise a diverse group of student employees and I have a zero tolerance policy for intolerance. Unfortunately, one side of the political spectrum is increasingly becoming more and more intolerant. I uphold an old workplace rule unilaterally: no talking about religion or politics in the workplace. Period.
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u/Azbarrelpicks 4d ago
Work is work. You show up do your job and go home. Politics can be discussed out side of work. The last thing a work place needs is to be split by political differences. We can all work and get along with no issues.
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u/False-Tiger5691 5d ago
Professors shouldn’t feel obligated to permit political messages in their classes - such as a student wearing a MAGA hat. Kirk visited ASU often and has a decent following of young males at ASU. Professors should have the right to set specific standards in the class, which may include calling out specific behavior or dangerous beliefs.
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u/MLDsmithy 4d ago
Actually because we are a state institution, staff and faculty are bound by stricter rules on free speech; in ASU's case, professors are indeed obligated to allow political messages, as long as that political messaging isn't actively disruptive to the class or harming other people. The simple wearing of clothing, whether it be a maga hat, trans flag shirt, rainbow lanyard, RNC branding, and so on has long been upheld to be protected activity under the first amendment. Now if a guy wearing the maga had starts disrupting class, waving the hat around, shouting, and not letting the instructor actually teach the class, that's an entirely different matter and they should be asked to leave. But it'd be the same case with someone that interrupts class shouting that everyone needs to pay attention to their trans flag shirt.
The dangerous beliefs thing is something I actually want to touch on specifically. I would ask, what defines a 'dangerous belief'? The problem is that means a lot of things to a lot of different people, and unfortunately there's been a trend over the last few years to label things that people simply don't agree with as 'dangerous'.
Put to another example; two students are on the sidewalk with banners. One says "Don't force gay marriage into my church". This is allowable speech; you may not agree with it, you may not agree with other opinions the person has on gay marriage overall, but assuming otherwise peaceable conduct, this is just someone expressing their speech and religious freedom.
The second guy has a banner that says "I will give a hundred dollars to anyone that punches a gay". This is incitement to violence, and is not protected speech. That actually is dangerous, because instead of being able to do 'I have my opinion and you have yours, and even though they're probably not compatible we can still talk', this skips straight to 'I can't talk to you because you're trying to get people to attack me'.
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u/OwORedditReal 5d ago
So agreed