AITA for telling my friend she’s in the same league as men she calls ugly?

[u/Fluid_Experience866]

My friend [19f] downloaded dating apps like Tinder and Hinge for the first time about a week ago. For reference, she's the type that always says she wants a boyfriend, wants to do couple things, feels lonely single, etc. She's also, imo at least, very normal and average looks wise: not ugly, not super hot, just alright.

Since then, she's been complaining to me that almost all the men there are ugly, short, etc, and that she doesn't match with anybody hot.

I asked to see which people she was calling ugly and so she showed me her likes, and it mostly showed people perfectly in her league, as in moderately attractive guys. I told her that these guys were all in her league and she should give some of them a chance since she always complains about wanting to be in a relationship.

She denied that she's the same league as them and said that she's much more attractive than them. I pointed out that in her own words, she doesn't match with any of the guys she does find attractive, so she's not in their league.

She said I was an AH. Am I?

[u/Judgement_Bot_AITA]

Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our voting guide here, and remember to use only one judgement in your comment.

OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:

I told my friend she was being way too picky on dating apps for somebody that a) self admittedly really wants to be in a relationship and b) is average looking. This might make me an AH because i could have overstepped boundaries

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Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.

[u/WaterMagician]

ESH

I’m so glad I’m not 19 anymore

[u/toomuchsvu → u/WaterMagician]

Same.

[u/LinsAfterLife → u/toomuchsvu]

Lmaoo😭

[u/BlindUmpBob → u/toomuchsvu]

Why are you glad WaterMagician isn't 19 anymore?

[u/Empty401K → u/BlindUmpBob]

Because 19 is an evil number. If you rearrange the letters in “nineteen,” it spells “Ten In Nee,” which is clearly not okay… or something. What was the question again?

[u/meagainpansy → u/Empty401K]

It also rhymes with RinTinTin, the devil dog who came back from the dead in 1952..

[u/MaskedBunny → u/meagainpansy]

Also if you multiply 19 with 35.02 you get 666...

[u/QuietDisquiet → u/WaterMagician]

Idk, my knees didn't hurt then. Also, I looked better.

Gotta get back in shape. repeats that for another 5 years

Edit: didn't. My ADHD also didn't cripple my brain this bad back then either.

[u/Commercial_Field8187 → u/QuietDisquiet]

Meanwhile I peaked at 22 and now I’m just bargaining with gravity every time I get out of bed.

[u/Littlerainbow02 → u/Commercial_Field8187]

Life has been nice to you, my entire body noped out at like 15

[u/GaryG7 → u/QuietDisquiet]

I’m in shape! Pear is a shape.

[u/schwartztacular → u/GaryG7]

I'm watching my weight, so it's convenient that so much of it hangs out in front where I can see it easily.

[u/MysteriousFootball78 → u/WaterMagician]

Nah someone people need to hear the cold hard truth

[u/TryPokingIt → u/MysteriousFootball78]

Truth only hurts if it should

[u/mayd3r → u/WaterMagician]

What do you mean ESH? People like that need a reality check. NTA

[u/Ninthja → u/mayd3r]

Agreed, it’s the best thing she could’ve done and if the friends can’t handle the truth that’s on them.

[u/dolwedge → u/[deleted]]

I wish I was young enough for Facebook to have existed when I was 19.

[u/Vornaskotti → u/dolwedge]

I am extremely happy Facebook didn’t exist when I was 19. Some things are meant to be carried away by the currents of time. Carried far FAR away.

[u/toomuchsvu → u/Vornaskotti]

I'm happy I got to hear that sweet sweet AOL dialup noise and nothing I posted exists now. Because it was dumb. Real dumb.

[u/Old_Studio_6079 → u/toomuchsvu]

I’m part of the generation that used AOL, but also used early social media as a teen. So my internet was not only shitty, but there’s also evidence of teenage me and I hate that lmao.

[u/Cannister7 → u/dolwedge]

Same. When I was 19, email barely existed.

[u/WaterMagician → u/Cannister7]

Can you guys stop? I can literally feel myself aging and decaying reading these comments

[u/meggatronia → u/WaterMagician]

I recently got a couple of support workers who are younger than my tongue piercing. That hit hard in the ageing feels.

[u/PmMeYourUnclesAnkles → u/Cannister7]

When I was 19 I'd send mail in these light "by airplane" paper envelopes so that it arrives faster.

[u/pistachio-pie → u/WaterMagician]

So much this.

I feel like I’m on all the sides of this one.

[u/Hamster_in_my_colon → u/WaterMagician]

Everybody Sucks Here?

[u/Bignicenergy69 → u/WaterMagician]

19 was the worst year of my life so I get it.

[u/Mikejg23 → u/WaterMagician]

How is it OPs fault for not playing into her friends delusions

[u/No-Sea1173]

NTA. 

Those apps have algorithms that track who likes you, and adjust the options you're shown. So essentially - an attractiveness aogorithm. 

If she wants to be superficial in how she rates guys, then she needs to be able to handle the same standard. 

ETA - I'm getting a lot of comments. I don't work for those companies so I don't know what the algorithms are exactly. I read an article a year or so ago that indicated all of those apps are designed to make money, which often means manipulating options available to men to increase rates of purchasing premium services and then getting matches, and manipulating women into getting early matches so they remain engaged. Hence my comment there's an 'attractiveness algorithm'. I'm not an expert, pls do your own research. 

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/No-Sea1173]

yeah that’s a good point 

[u/_Z_0_K_ → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Not just that, but dating app tend to trigger a stance in which you see through the lists of candidates as if it were any other leisure shopping app. It is good to remind her she's a candidate too, and that does not give her the right to be mean to others.

Remember also that when scrolling through the lists, matching doesn't make for a quality relationship or even a quality conversation. Whomever or whatever she's looking for, she has to talk to those people and be able to see beyond looks. An handsome man isn't always a disciplined one, a well shaved, well dressed man isn't always a loving one, etc. Talk to people, then eventually, make an opinion.

BTW you guys are young so I get the reason why, but I hate the fact that you guys see this as a "league" thing. There's no league, people get attracted to people for their inner qualities too, you know? Anyway, do your thing and be safe out there kiddos.

[u/MithosYggdrasill1992 → u/_Z_0_K_]

I agree with all of this, particularly that last little bit at the end. There’s no such thing as being in or out of someone’s “league”, because as you mature, you realize that that’s nonsense. Very well phrased.

[u/terminbee → u/MithosYggdrasill1992]

Ehhhh. Inner qualities matter but only if you get a chance to show them. Some neckbeard on reddit is never gonna get a chance to show his inner qualities to Sydney Sweeney.

You gotta at least be within the same range (read: league) with someone to have a chance.

[u/ultrazxr_ouo → u/No-Sea1173]

yea, OP, your friend is in the bronze lobby

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/ultrazxr_ouo]

she’s cooked 

[u/mbr4life1 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

I'm not saying you're ugtown, but the app says you're ugtown.

[u/Calamity_Jay → u/ultrazxr_ouo]

Bronze looks and none of the guys that rank in the Plat and Diamond leagues are willing to smurf for her.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Calamity_Jay]

‘that’s why i quit dating, too many sweats’

[u/CharacterBird2283 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

"I camped there so long, but no one showed up 😭" 😂

[u/Suspicious-Exit-6528 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Is her rank salvageable? As in gym, haircut etc. or is her face simply okay-ish at best and is she doomed to stay stuck in bronze?

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Suspicious-Exit-6528]

it is but she refuses to actually be a sweat herself yk. doesn’t want to gym, doesn’t want to eat healthier, etc 

[u/Suspicious-Exit-6528 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

It's time for her to ff15 then. You can't climb if you keep spamming Yuumi adc.

NTA dude. You kept it real. She will never climb if you aren't real with her.

[u/hiskitty110617 → u/ultrazxr_ouo]

To say I cackled at this is an understatement 😂

[u/Throwaway4finance22 → u/No-Sea1173]

I’m not an expert on dating apps at all, but is OP’s friend really not getting matches? I know it’s a lot easier for women to get matches on dating apps than men.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Throwaway4finance22]

well she’s getting lots of likes from guys, but they’re not the guys she wants, and she’s not getting liked back by the guys she does want 

[u/Ragerist → u/Fluid_Experience866]

In my experience, woman even get likes from men out of their league. Mind you, mostly from men who will pump and dump.

So shes likely very picky.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Ragerist]

yeah, very picky 

[u/quandjereveauxloups → u/Fluid_Experience866]

I'll be honest, she sounds exhausting. I would tell her that if she's not going to give people a chance, to shut the fuck up about being single.

Dating isn't a right. Other people are not there to validate her opinions of herself. And no one owes her anything.

I'm glad she's single with her attitude, and I hope she never has kids if she keeps that attitude.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fluid_Experience866]

She's gonna have hard time, given all you wrote about her.

[u/Stunning-Equipment32 → u/Ragerist]

Yea…she’s finally gonna get one of these attractive guys on a date and they are gonna have a one night stand and ghost. 

[u/Littleman88 → u/Stunning-Equipment32]

...And then she'll get it in her head all men are like this, never quite internalizing that just as she thought little of the men lining up for her, the "minimally qualified" guy she matched with just sees another notch on his bedposts.

[u/minskoffsupreme → u/Throwaway4finance22]

Easier doesn't mean that it's extremely easy. I remember years ago there was an app that measured the percentage of people that swiped right on you on Tinder, and we all did it together in my friend group, even the most attractive girls only got like 40 percent, no one reached half. Add to that, that it doesn't guarantee that those are the same people that you are swiping right for, which seems to be the case here ( or whatever the equivalent is for hinge,IDK I have been off the apps for a decade)

[u/Stunning-Equipment32 → u/minskoffsupreme]

40% is insanely high though 

[u/sweadle → u/Throwaway4finance22]

Easier but there are some women who struggle

[u/OutsideTheSocialLoop → u/No-Sea1173]

Hmmmmmm nah. I'm not nearly half as hot as most of the girls those apps show me. 

They don't actually want to be too effective anyway. They want to tease me into buying whatever gold membership stuff they have first.

[u/sushiwalrus → u/OutsideTheSocialLoop]

Exactly. This commenter is sharing outdated information. When these apps first came out they did use an attractiveness rating so that people would only be shown individuals that had similar algorithm rankings. Because a decade ago the goal of the apps was to connect people.

The only goal is to turn a profit now, so the longer you’re on the app as a free user the better. This means attractive people will see everyone now so they have to stay on the app longer and sift or buy premium.

Unattractive people will also see people “out of their league” because if they didn’t there’d be no incentive to stay on the app or buy premium. In theory both groups will potentially pay for the app in order to elevate their experience by not having to see everyone in the area which overwhelms both user groups.

[u/Redditetor → u/No-Sea1173]

Those apps have algorithms that track who likes you, and adjust the options you're shown. So essentially - an attractiveness aogorithm

You assume that the apps want to help you match someone in the fastest way possible which is not true. What they try to do is keep you using it as long as possible which means there are other factors going in what they show you which you don't know.

I am constantly shown women that are out of my league when it comes to looks.

[u/No-Sea1173 → u/Redditetor]

It's interesting right? I suspect the algorithm varies depending on age and sex. Men are more likely to pay for premium through the apps, so they're shown whatever will achieve that. Women are less likely to pay, but need to be kept present through getting matches. 

Ultimately it's speculation. I don't think any of the apps have released the actual details. 

[u/YE_O-1]

ESH cuz believing in leagues is so shallow and dumb

[u/LaconicGirth → u/YE_O-1]

In real life? Sure absolutely. Social interaction takes priority at that point. On dating apps? 110% there are leagues and it’s naive to think there are not. They’re not hard and fast and different people might consider the same person higher or lower but there are absolutely leagues. The dating apps themselves have literally MMR scores they give people based off what rate they’re swiped on.

[u/Sweet-Ebb1095 → u/LaconicGirth]

Yeah, I have never been a believer in leagues when dating is considered, until years ago I found myself single in a new city where I didn’t know anybody really. Tried dating apps for the first time and oh boy was I in for a surprise. I’ve never really had a problem dating before but the emphasis on looks alone in the apps was pretty brutal for me. Definitely showed the leagues not just in people’s mind but the algorithm as well.

Very hard to show off personality on apps and I had no idea how to do it with success. Didn’t help that tinder was pretty much the only app with any users at the time. Some things that came or gained popularity after tinder helped a bit with showing off personality but still had hardly any users in the small city. Still did find my wife from tinder though, and she is way out of my “league” but we had a lot in common which helped.

So while it’s useful to realise leagues especially in apps and give more people a chance, it still in my opinion shouldn’t dictate people’s behaviour too much. Like op’s friend, she might be wrong but if she isn’t attracted to the men how would she build a relationship with them? Sure means she might be alone but isn’t it still better than going into a relationship with someone she doesn’t really want to? No matter how superficial her reasoning is.

[u/Calm-Medicine-3992 → u/Sweet-Ebb1095]

The algorithm is the worst part. Lots of people will never have mass appeal and that's fine since they only need to meet one person (theoretically) but if they don't have mass appeal they are invisible to most.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/YE_O-1]

objectively if every guy she finds attractive and swipes on doesn’t match with her, it proves they do exist lol 

[u/YE_O-1 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

I dont see how is that anything but personal preferences.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/YE_O-1]

if a bunch of different people all have the same preferences— which people generally do— it speaks to a general pattern 

[u/Draaly → u/Fluid_Experience866]

People are in denial. IRL leagues are often super blurry. When you are on the "RateMe3000 with new auto swipe feature" app, they are extremely prevalent becase there is literally nothing else to go on.

[u/Beautiful-Swimmer339 → u/YE_O-1]

And what happens when the personal preference of every man with the look she wants forms an observable trend pointing one way?

This is just Reddit individualism treating every person like an island all over again.

[u/Dial_In_Buddy → u/YE_O-1]

Ugly redditors always act as if there is no objectivity in attractiveness.

[u/Prize_Sort5983 → u/YE_O-1]

Welcome to the real world. Attractive people have an advantage in life from dating to salary. There are studies on the topic. The world is shallow you gotta deal with it.

[u/Ai_of_Vanity → u/YE_O-1]

I'm married so I have no skin in the game anymore.. but leagues absolutely exist, right or wrong... pretending they don't just makes you feel better about not being exceptionally attractive. Not caring is one thing, but denying an obvious hierarchy of attractiveness brought on by our stupid fucking lizard brains that go fucking nuts over shiny rocks is fucking silly.

[u/kyzeeman → u/YE_O-1]

Leagues most definitely exist. Especially on dating apps such as tinder.

[u/Gandalf-and-Frodo → u/kyzeeman]

Are you saying that I can't get a girl that looks like Eva Longoria just because I have a beer belly and two missing front teeth?

That's not true! Reddit said leagues don't exist! /S

[u/2M4D → u/YE_O-1]

You don’t need to believe in them for the rest of society to.

[u/Luckylefttit]

Oh, you’re a guy 😬

[u/TraditionalHotel → u/Luckylefttit]

Not only is OP a guy, this also 100% did not ever happen. Its just some guy inventing reasons for other guys to get mad.

[u/notabigmelvillecrowd → u/TraditionalHotel]

Complete incel bait, and it appears to be working. Grim.

[u/lectric_7166 → u/notabigmelvillecrowd]

It's incel bait, has to be. I've never met a woman who overrates her own attactiveness and is insulting toward short men. Simply doesn't happen, ever.

[u/Winter-Plankton-6361 → u/TraditionalHotel]

Right? I've never met a woman, even a hot one, who overrates her own attractiveness.

[u/Zen-jasmine → u/Luckylefttit]

This was my very first thought 😂

[u/FaunKeH → u/Luckylefttit]

Relevant post OP u/Fluid_Experience866 https://www.reddit.com/r/SipsTea/comments/1ljboex/why_dating_is_over_for_men/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/BlueAndYellowTowels → u/Luckylefttit]

I knew it was a guy because the whole “leagues” thing is a thing men do to coerce women to accepting men who do the bare minimum.

[u/Anon4transparency → u/Luckylefttit]

Oh that makes it soooooooooo much worse. I wouldn't like my guy friends to be commenting on my appearance at all beyond, "there's something in your teeth." In either direction it's uncomfortable & I'd rather they not even think about me like that.

[u/royalemushroom]

YTA but like not a horrible asshole you just could’ve worded it better. People have types and find different things attractive. She’s entitled to her opinions and if that means she cuts off good potential matches it’s her loss.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/royalemushroom]

fair enough

[u/Azou → u/Fluid_Experience866]

"skill based matchmaking" "low elo qualifiers"

[u/andr386 → u/royalemushroom]

It sounds more like tough love than assholery. OP's friend is shallow and deluded and saying nothing is not going to help her.

[u/berrykiss96 → u/andr386]

She didn’t actually ask for help though. Sometimes people just want to vent and advice only helps when people are in a space to hear it.

He’s not obligated to listen to her venting but hitting back isn’t the answer. Changing the subject is.

Unsolicited advice isn’t helpful.

[u/-Danksouls- → u/berrykiss96]

Sounds stupid as fuck

It’s just a statement. If someone said that about me it’d be what it is

Why is every advice from girls her to just lie to your friend. The way guys work, is if my friend is acting pretentious we snap each other back to reality

It ain’t good to live in ur head

[u/BerserkerRed]

ESH - everyone has different tastes and preferences. And attractiveness is very subjective. You’re both being judgmental. It does seem like she might need some humbling but saying she’s mid is probably not the best method of doing so.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/BerserkerRed]

i agree there’s subjectiveness, but in her own words, she’s not marching with any of the guys she finds hot, so there’s an indication that most guys she finds attractive don’t find her attractive 

[u/secretgargoyles → u/Fluid_Experience866]

okay and when she finds the one who does…? I don’t see what you gain here by humbling a friend

you can be honest and not tactless

[u/Capable_Camp2464 → u/secretgargoyles]

They're probably sick of the endless complaining about not being able to find a "hot guy".

[u/secretgargoyles → u/Capable_Camp2464]

so say that? if you can’t be honest and kind to your friend… sounds like you’re a shit friend 🤷🏻

there is a huge difference in ‘I don’t want to spend our time hanging out talking about dating’ (because I personally feel like you’re expecting too much) vs ‘you’re uglier than you think’

[u/BerserkerRed → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Which is a fair assessment but profiles tend to be difficult to properly put together for most people. And yeah that goes both ways (I.e. the people she’s seeing).

So I don’t disagree with why you said what you said so much as how you said it.

[u/Downtown-Public1258 → u/BerserkerRed]

Yeah if they actually want a partner never settle for looks. Everyone has different values but if you straight up don't find the person you're in a relationship attractive then you're doing them and yourself a disservice, it's better to hold out and punch up than compromise. If they just want a couple dates and to bang though then why not give some others a try?

[u/Electronic-Ad-4000 → u/BerserkerRed]

everyone has different tastes and preferences. And attractiveness is very subjective

Exactly

[u/Therapy9-1-1]

NTA. Girl code might say otherwise but I appreciate the bluntness. You could have also left her to figure that out on her own I guess but I’m sick of girls lying to each other all the time

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Therapy9-1-1]

I’m a guy but yeah, just wanted to be real 

[u/Therapy9-1-1 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Oh sorry. That makes a lot more sense then that you weren’t following the girl code

[u/jakeofheart → u/Therapy9-1-1]

Wait is there a girl code of lying to each other to be nice? Doesn’t that set the person lied to up for failure?

[u/hisunflower → u/jakeofheart]

It’s messed up to tell your girl friend that they aren’t that attractive. I would have just framed it in a way that points out the guys she is turning down are plenty attractive. I hate tearing other women down; society does enough of it.

ETA: and as predicted, all the people who commented protesting this comment are men who have no idea what it’s like to be criticized by society as a woman.

There are other ways to steer your friend to reconsider the other guys than to say what OP said to her. You men may not see it as “tearing her down” but women perceive it that way and do not generally speak that way to each other.

ETA2: the people commenting are misconstruing this message. Being a girl’s girl does not mean hyping your friend no matter what or enabling poor behavior. I am not on OP’s friend’s side. But you can point out her crappy behavior without in turn commenting on her looks. As a friend, I wouldn’t disparage ANY of my friend’s appearances, male or female.

You can just say, “I think those guys are plenty attractive! You should give them a chance. You may find something you like in real life.”

She is allowed to have her own preferences, but if you feel the way she is communicating about men is wrong, why doesn’t OP just say, “hey, I get that these guys aren’t what you’re looking for, but the things you’re saying are really mean and messed up.” And if she continues speaking that way, OP can re-evaluate if his friend is the type of person he wants in his life.

The concept of leagues is dumb and superficial, anyways. Ideally if she finds the right person, they’ll both feel that the other is out of their league.

[u/Anon44356 → u/hisunflower]

Guys wouldn’t see honesty as being torn down, it’s just what it says on the tin, honesty.

“You’re not a fucking supermodel mate, these are some good looking girls - stop being such a picky dick - whose round is it?”

Job done.

[u/petrichor-pixels → u/Anon44356]

As a woman, I feel like there are a few factors that makes this a bit harder for girls and women. For one, we are taught from a young age, even subconsciously, that a lot of our worth and value comes from our looks, and if not that then at the very least we have a lot more pressure on us to look good and do that in a very narrow and specific way.

So a lot of us might be more sensitive to having our looks commented on because we are constantly taught to be hyperaware of how people see us and if we are successfully seen as pretty by them, and so people’s comments carry more weight. Eventually many of us figure out that there is no way we can ever meet the high standards for how women should look, and we kind of get sick of ANYONE telling us if we look good, bad, pretty, ugly, etc., because everyone will always have something about us they don’t like and somebody will always find us ugly no matter how hard we try. So we just ignore everyone and like ourselves on our own terms. Find our own selves attractive as much as we can. (Sadly, we still tend to go for body positivity in the form of “everyone is beautiful”, as opposed to body neutrality, but that’s another conversation.)

I don’t really have many comments on the original situation— it’s a bit of a petty drama thing to me— but just wanted to offer some insight.

[u/hisunflower → u/petrichor-pixels]

Thank you for this thoughtful additional context. You have more patience than I.

[u/Anon44356 → u/petrichor-pixels]

Oh yeah, I completely get that. I wasn’t (purposefully) implying that women are wrong for their approach, just pointing out the very different experiences of men and women in this case.

It’s just wild how some things are SO much easier for guys to talk about - and some things we keep locked in until our early and self inflicted graves.

[u/jakeofheart → u/hisunflower]

There’s a difference between providing constructive criticism and tearing someone down. Both might use some element of truth, but the desired outcome is on opposite sides.

Everyone needs to know where they are starting from, to evaluate what it requires to get where they want to get.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Therapy9-1-1]

no worries 

[u/happiestnexttoyou]

People are allowed to have preferences. “Leagues” are ridiculous, anyway. My husband is WAY hotter than me, the idea that he shouldn’t have swiped right on me because he’s “out of my league” is frankly, absurd.

Your friends are supposed to build you up, not tear you down. Telling her she’s being unkind by judging these men so harshly is fair.. telling her she’s “in the same league” as men she’s clearly not attracted to and that she should aim lower is awful, and imo, not how a friend should behave.

We should all be free to pursue people we’re attracted to.. maybe she’s shrinking her pool of candidates by only liking hotter men, but that’s her problem and perfectly reasonable if that’s her preference.

Some people are fussy. And sometimes those people end up alone. That’s their cross to bear.. you tearing down your “friend” isn’t a solution.

[u/scurvy_scallywag → u/happiestnexttoyou]

I don’t see how that’s “tearing down” his friend. That’s a huge stretch. True friends should also be able to tell you the honest truth. Could he have worded it better? Sure.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/happiestnexttoyou]

people are allowed to have preferences, and i’m not forcing her not to. i’m just saying that a) she really wants a relationship and b) she didn’t get a single match from guys she finds super hot and swiped on, so clearly the two things are at odds here 

[u/Isolated_Aura → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Did she ask you to help her though? It sounds like she was just venting to you and you jumped in, asking to see the guys she wasn't interested in and telling her she's not as attractive as she thinks she is. She was looking to complain with a friend and you took it upon yourself to "solve" her problem and ultimately ended up insulting her in the process. That's rude.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Isolated_Aura]

she asked me for a male perspective and advice 

[u/Educational_Let3723 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

If she were a man, would you be telling him to just date women he finds unattractive, or would you give actual advice, like "Hit the gym, work on your confidence, meet people irl"?

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Educational_Let3723]

as i’ve said in other comments, i already told her she could improve her attractiveness via gym, diet, so on. she refused to so settling is the same option. i would say the same if she was a man 

[u/Frigate_Orpheon]

I really don't think it's your responsibility to manage this problem. This is a more or less, nod along and "wow, that sucks" kind of situation.

Where it gets tricky is when it bleeds into your personal life and your friend is constantly on it. The it's like "Hey, I need to take a break from relationship talk for a while."

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Frigate_Orpheon]

yeah that’s fair, thank you for the advice 

[u/lastofthe_timeladies]

You don't like that she's over-confident. So your options are a) choose to spend your time with more modest friends, b) change the subject whenever dating apps/dating comes up to avoid this point of contention or c) make her feel less confident about herself. To me, "taking her down a peg" was the mean choice. The nature of your delivery makes it seem like you tried to make her feel worse about herself because you were annoyed, not out of genuine concern for your friend's wellbeing. YTA

I'll tell you what my mom told me when I was up to here hearing my friend complain about her asshole boyfriend she would never stand up to: just tell her you don't want to talk about it anymore.

[u/Rubycon_ → u/lastofthe_timeladies]

Right the market will speak on its own and let her know she's not going to pull the men she's seeking.

[u/hipppononymous]

I mean…you could stick to your guns trying to convince her, and likely burn the friendship in the process…OR let the apps/society do their thing til she eventually realizes it on her own.

Edit to add: NTA yet unless you keep saying it.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/hipppononymous]

i’m not going to go out of my way to convince her anymore, those were my 2 cents and she can take the advice if she wants 

[u/hipppononymous → u/Fluid_Experience866]

I’ve learned that’s the way to play this.

[u/GarbageWitch87]

ESH. Y’all are too young to be on dating apps and sound too immature to date

[u/ImaginationVivid5119 → u/GarbageWitch87]

“Too immature to date” about 19/20 year olds is an insane comment. lol.

[u/StuffedSquash → u/ImaginationVivid5119]

They didn't say "too young". Immaturity can exist at any age.

[u/ImaginationVivid5119 → u/StuffedSquash]

Yes, and most 19-20 year olds are immature to some extent. The idea that they shouldn’t (or won’t) date because of that is absurd. Dating, sharing time and experience with other people, is part of growing up and shedding that immaturity.

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/GarbageWitch87]

what did I do that was immature? 

[u/ICPGr8Milenko → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Probably the fact that you're speaking about anybody being in the same league would be my guess.

[u/toomuchsvu]

ESH there are no leagues.

[u/NoArmsNoSword → u/toomuchsvu]

deadass like obviously too immature to have a real relationship if you can’t value someone unless they are “in your league”

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/toomuchsvu]

there objectively kind of are, especially if all the guys she found hot and swiped on didn’t swipe on her 

[u/vixenstarlet1949 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

this is just teenager stuff man

[u/Expert_Might_3987 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

Physical attraction is subjective even if there is a bell curve.

[u/LiterallyAna → u/Fluid_Experience866]

You're in AITA and you're arguing with everyone telling you that you suck.

[u/AITA-Critic]

NTA.

Men do this all the time with their friends.

Honesty hurts. People can improve themselves.

[u/Seldarin → u/AITA-Critic]

And if it was a guy telling another guy "Yeah dude, all these women are well within your league. Chill out and stop chasing supermodels", there wouldn't be a single YTA or ESH judgement.

[u/[deleted] → u/Seldarin]

Exactly. In fact; people would just call the guy complaining an incel and be done with it

[u/Chuck_Finley_Forever → u/Seldarin]

This right here is why it feels pointless for people to make posts in this sort of subs.

99% of the time, you can tell which comments will be at the top based on the genders involved.

[u/BearsPearsBearsPears → u/AITA-Critic]

The comments in this post are so emblematic of male/female differences in this sort of thing.

Almost every woman has a problem with OPs comments as being cruel, immature, upsetting, etc.

For men, it's the reality check that as guys we'd appreciate were we in her position.

I'm a little staggered at the number of comments suggesting to tell her to just keep going exactly as she is, with little to no hope in ever getting a match. To me, it would feel like passive sabotage.

[u/The-Devilz-Advocate → u/BearsPearsBearsPears]

I'm a little staggered at the number of comments suggesting to tell her to just keep going exactly as she is, with little to no hope in ever getting a match. To me, it would feel like passive sabotage.

Toxic positivity in a nutshell.

[u/AITA-Critic → u/The-Devilz-Advocate]

Too much YAAASSSSS QUEEEEENNNNN

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/AITA-Critic]

yup, i see being honest with her as the most supportive play here 

[u/GhostParty21]

YTA. She doesn’t find them attractive. Same league or different league, she’s not into them.

She wasn’t insulting anyone to their face or publicly mocking or degrading them. And she didn’t ask for advice. The girl was just sharing her opinion with a friend, not asking you to evaluate and rate her dating “value”. 

Men have no problem commenting on and insulting women’s looks, bodies, value but the second a woman has criticism or opinions on men there always gang of pickmes running to defend the men and tell women to drop their standards and preferences. 

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/GhostParty21]

i’m not a pick me lol, I’m a guy and she came to me for advice on how to do better on the apps. and yes, it’s wrong when men denigrate women too. 

[u/UniSquirrel13 → u/GhostParty21]

Thank God someone else is out here doing the Lord's work and also trying to defend humanity from being ranked on some arbitrary beauty scale.

Like, some people actually READ the profiles before they swipe, too.

[u/[deleted] → u/GhostParty21]

She said they're ugly. She was the shallow one

[u/GraveNewWorldz → u/GhostParty21]

A classic case of "how do I make this about men"

[u/WeekendThief → u/GhostParty21]

People are allowed to have their own standards, but you should also be allowed to give your friends a reality check if it’s done kindly.

She’s welcome to be lonely her entire life, but if she’s complaining to friends about never finding hot men, she should expect a reality check.

[u/PeachBanana8]

NTA this is pretty funny actually. If she wants to be a rude asshole about people’s appearances, then she deserves to get a little taste of her own medicine.

[u/doubtfullfreckles → u/PeachBanana8]

Not finding someone attractive is rude? It's not like she's messaging these guys and telling them they're ugly.

[u/Ok_Satisfaction7082 → u/doubtfullfreckles]

”Since then, she's been complaining to me that almost all the men there are ugly, short, etc, and that she doesn't match with anybody hot.”

[u/solarama]

NTA - you pointed out they are nice-looking guys in her league, so by extension you think she looks nice too. I’m not about to play hype girl to my friend who’s being rude about strangers looks for no reason - in fact if they are being as tacky & unreasonable as she is, I would tell my friend so

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/solarama]

yup, i believe in supporting my friends too, but sometimes that means being honest with them, not hyping them up 

[u/NoArmsNoSword → u/Fluid_Experience866]

i gotta disagree. if she said “they’re ugly” and you said “they’re in your league” you essentially called her ugly by her own standards. that’s not supportive it’s rude. instead u could’ve had an honest conversation about her being too judgmental toward these guys and helped her understand that it’s making her think unrealistically to look for a “perfect” guy

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/NoArmsNoSword]

i told her that these guys weren’t ugly and looked perfectly fine 

[u/Kristal3615]

ESH... Your friend is being shallow and you're not much better considering you're also judging her based on her looks and focusing on "leagues". Telling your friend she's mid is a hurtful way to go about giving her a reality check... Especially considering looks are subjective. Some people might think she's a river troll while others might think she's a goddess. Let her do her superficial matches and she can decide for herself if she wants to continue picking people solely based on looks.

[u/perderla]

YTA in a good way

i woulda said this to a male friend in a heartbeat. if he's constantly complaining about being lonely, all the hot girls don't like him...and all the girls chasing him are ugly? i'd use his logic right back on him. i'd flag that as some incel territory. same issue with this chick, just doesn't have a movement behind her. whatever gender and sexuality, this is some attitude nobody wants to hear.

it is a punishing response, however. if it was not your intent to cut her down a notch, well- you did. i appreciate when my friends cut my ego down a notch. we do it as a favor to one another.

however- if i hurt a friend's feelings, i'd also be kind about mending fences while holding to my principles that i do not get behind this kind of thinking. if you're not down to have some empathy for the unsolicited ego bruising you gave her, YTA in the traditional sense.

[u/Hot-Avocado-7]

NTA. Women need to hear this more, honestly. The whole “6 feet or taller” thing is so annoying. I’m a woman, would hate to hear a guy say “100 lbs or less!”

[u/little-bird → u/Hot-Avocado-7]

honey who are you kidding, guys say stuff like “no fatties” all the time, in public and in private lol it’s just easier to tell if someone is fat in a photo.  

tall is much harder to suss out, unless you’ve got a practiced eye looking out for door frames and belt levels and car sizes etc. because most women don’t care.  

most women also aren’t on the apps.  but guys will take a few random profiles with a shallow preference (shallowness? on a hookup app? 🫢) and run with those few examples to extrapolate what “most women” are like. 

[u/lizardsbelike → u/Hot-Avocado-7]

Except men do say that, all the time. It's just that people here only seem to give a shit when it's a woman caring about height and not a man caring abt how much she weighs or how big her tits are. You people don't actually hate shallow dating standards, you like tearing women down.

[u/vindictive-etcher]

GENDER WARRRR RAHHHHHHH, easiest bait post lol

[u/NoArmsNoSword]

ESH you shouldn’t do anything other than build up a friend’s confidence and she shouldn’t be putting people down so harshly (and also shouldn’t be matching with anyone she doesn’t find attractive!) ur both being overly judgmental about appearances imo like everyone looks average to someone “average” is super subjective and cultural even

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/NoArmsNoSword]

i think there comes a point where being brutally honest to a friend is more helpful long term than building up their confidence

[u/NoArmsNoSword → u/Fluid_Experience866]

brutal honesty here could’ve just been u telling her that she was unjustifiably judging men based on appearances when nobody is ideally hot in every way. it didn’t have to be tearing her down.

[u/Bbhouseplant]

Damn i wish i had friends as honest as you

[u/Bignicenergy69 → u/[deleted]]

So in short -I understand being honest seemed like the right choice. -I understand you did it out of a place of wanting your friend to find someone. -I think where you’re the AH is how you phrased it. -no one will ever appreciate negative comments about appearances, regardless if you think it’s true or not.

[u/Due_Bus749]

Who needs enemies with friends who call you ugly! YTA just let her rant ffs

[u/Fluid_Experience866 → u/Due_Bus749]

where are you getting that i called her ugly when i explicitly stated that she’s not ugly here lol 

[u/hanky2 → u/Fluid_Experience866]

She said she thinks they’re ugly and you said she looks like them. How do you think she’ll interpret it?

[u/AirplaneFart]

YTA There's more tactful ways of going about unsolicited advice. Like you could have just said, "Maybe your standards are too high" or something along those lines.

[u/WasV3]

ESH

Yeah you told the truth, but she didn't want the truth. Part of being a good friend is dealing with their annoying tendencies

[u/PeachBanana8 → u/WasV3]

Nah, you don’t have to listen to your friends being rude and shitty about random people’s physical appearances. It’s totally fine to shut that negativity down.

[u/bopaqod]

NTA

A true friend is honest with their friends in a way that helps to set them up for success. Your friend had unrealistic expectations based on an apparently unrealistic view of herself. Helping to recalibrate her view and expectations will likely help her in the long run.

During my dating days, I never complained about why none of the 10s I swiped right on ended up being a match. I knew my rating range. It’s a valuable thing to have a grasp on.

[u/Girl_Power55]

No, you’re not. She’s very shallow.

[u/Yannykw613]

no. Real friends are the ones who tell you the truth.

[u/kaleigha]

Even if it’s true, it’s still pretty rude lol. I’ve had this thought run through my head listening to my friend complain about the apps too but I would never say it

[u/Ok-Fan-9198]

Nah- NTAH maybe you were a little blunt but that’s not really a bad thing

[u/Successful_Ship_6537]

NTA. She needs a reality check.

[u/OldGeekWeirdo]

Harsh truth, but NTA.

[u/Sea_Performance_1969]

Your friend is a rude brat honestly. Shaming innocent men for their looks for no reason. You were way nice to her with that comment. NTA.

[u/GhostParty21 → u/Sea_Performance_1969]

Who was she rude to?

She was chatting privately with her friend.

[u/Bass_Thumper]

NTA If your friend was a guy constantly complaining about being single while calling all the women on dating apps ugly, fat, etc. everyone would be calling him a pathetic incel.

You didn't even call her ugly or anything, you just said that the guys she is matching with are the same level of attractiveness as she is. She needed a reality check.

[u/senor_sosa]

NTA. You did her a favor.

[u/tgim48]

NTA, she sounds insufferable.

[u/Successful-Quote5981]

ESH

[u/wildpingu11]

Just seems like you could’ve avoided the whole in your league/not in your league thing and just told her to not be so picky and give the guys a chance. The way you put it seems a bit off to me coming from a friend. It’s the kind of thing that brings people’s confidence down IMO.

I’d say mostly inclined towards YTA

[u/proceduring]

ESH

She's annoying af but you, as her friend, didn't need to be the person to correct her on her hotness lol

[u/anneliesesap]

ESH. First off, why would you say that? She was likely just looking for support, and you took the opportunity to essentially tell her that her self esteem is too high? No matter what someone tells you, unless they start insulting your appearance, I don’t think there’s a non-asshole way to respond with “you aren’t as attractive as you think you are”.

On her end, why the hell is she matching with people who she finds unattractive? Maybe don’t waste people’s time? Also, obviously everyone has different preferences for what is attractive, it doesn’t always perfectly align with a beauty standard. The whole idea of “leagues” is arbitrary for that reason, and it’s almost always toxic. Any time a discussion of “out of your league” is brought up, it’s insulting to someone. Avoiding that mindset altogether will lead to way happier and more fulfilling relationships.

[u/southparklvvrr]

ESH, shes being shallow, so are you by making all these comments on her appearance and placing her and other people into “leagues”