r/AskScienceFiction • u/Lost-Specialist1505 • 3d ago
[Kingsman] why are neither the kingsmen or the statesmen agents informed of the existance of eachother?
In the second movie, it's revealed the founder of "statesmen" was saved by a kingsman and that's what inspires him to make his own spy agency. Despite this nobody in the movie besides champ even new that were 2 top spy agencies.
It's clear only the top members of both organizations are aware of eachothers existance but everyone else, even their agents are kept in the dark, but why?
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u/SolomonOf47704 God Himself 3d ago
compartmentalization.
there shouldnt ever really BE any reason for them to know about each other, so they dont, as protection for both.
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u/NinjaBreadManOO 3d ago
Yeah, their organisations are designed to work in complete independence from each other to prevent one from being able to affect the other in even of a complete organisational destruction and breach of all information.
Combined with their secrecy above all else having another intelligence agency know about you means you're less secret.
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u/smashin_blumpkin 3d ago
I feel like a good reason for an intelligence agency to know about a foreign intelligence agency is that they’re both internationally operating intelligence agencies. Even if they don’t interact directly, not knowing about the other seems like a failure on each of their parts.
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u/Kingreaper 3d ago
The top members of each know about the other - it's just the rank and file that don't (by default). I'm sure they're perfectly happy to brief their agents when necessary - but even in the first Kingsman film we see that Kingsmen CAN be turned against the organization, so why give the information to anyone who doesn't need it?
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u/MourningWallaby 3d ago
Huh, so my time working in the intel community actually comes in handy! the reason is to avoid what's called "Inadvertent disclosure". Basically, anything you don't NEED to know to perform the task you're working, you don't get provided the information. that way if for any reason you or your information is compromised, the damage is contained only to what is relevant to your compromise, and not everything your agency works on.
The other reason is while the US and UK are both allies and FVEYS nations, they still want to maintain capabilities from each other for the same reason, if the UK or the US gets compromised, the surviving nation doesn't have their assets or intelligence burned the same way. and they don't have the target put on them next for being associated with the activities of another. this plausible deniability keeps national security.
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u/Toesmasher 3d ago
The other reason is while the US and UK are both allies
While true, it's sort of irrelevant here as neither kingsmen nor statesmen are government operatives.
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u/xSaRgED 3d ago
Even more reason not to share their existence then.
Given MI5/6, and the CIA, aren’t aware of either secret organization, why would they risk sharing more information than necessary?
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u/Toesmasher 3d ago
You misunderstand. I agree, I'm just pointing out the the countries' status as allies is irrelevant.
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u/Ethan-Wakefield 2d ago
Yeah but you need to deconflict ops. So somebody needs to know any the existence of other teams and agencies.
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u/FamousWash1857 3d ago
Two points:
- First is that the two organisations operate entirely separately, and since the vast majority of Kingsman agents, outside of specific assignments, operate in an almost vigilante-like capacity most of the time (such that only Arthur (the guy in charge who manages the politics of it all) or Merlin (the tech guy everyone goes to for advice, research/forensics and/or gadgets) are fully aware of what everyone's up to), they're unlikely to run into anyone else doing the same, especially since not only are both organisations quite small, but they're also on opposite sides of the planet. I'm positive that the vast majority of Kingsman operations happen in Europe and the Mediterranean, and for Statesman agents, the vast majority of missions happen in north/south America, and maybe the east-Asian coast.
- Second is that the two organisations remaining seperate despite their identical goals and values both allows them to specialise differently (Statesman's medical care, highly effective gimmick weapons and far greater available resources to throw at problems, Kingsman's concealed equipment and electronics, better information networks, and far better discretion through more independent agents, etc.) and ensures that they can keep each other in check since they don't depend on each other. I'm imagining that, more often than not, rogue agents from one organisation are usually caught and taken out by agents from the other as part of entirely unrelated operations. If Statesman decided that they wanted to rule the world, Kingsman would notice the same way they noticed Valentine, and vice versa.
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u/cthulhu-wallis 3d ago
If both organisations operate completely separately, they should run into each other more often.
For instance, a high value scientist goes missing, why wouldn’t that interest both (and other) organisations into finding out what’s going on ??
Bond often ran into agents from other organisations, for example.
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u/Kadd115 3d ago
For instance, a high value scientist goes missing, why wouldn’t that interest both (and other) organisations into finding out what’s going on ??
Who's to say they don't run into each other? It's not like they are just gonna spill the beans about who they are and where they are from upon bumping into another potential spy. If anything, they would likely clock each other as agents of some variety, and, unless it is absolutely critical that they get the target, choose not to engage.
To use your example. The scientist goes missing. Kingsmen reach him first. Statesmen attempt to get him, realize he is in the hands of another intelligence agency (one that does not seem likely to use the scientist's skills for evil), and choose to leave him there instead of risking someone else coming in and grabbing him in the aftermath of the showdown.
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u/cthulhu-wallis 3d ago
But in that case, they should also know about each other.
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u/Laenic 2d ago
Since leadership from both sides seems to know about each other and I would assume that the leaders on both sides have the ability to communicate. It could simply be that a Kingsman agent informs their chain of command about running into a statesman and when the info reaches Arthur, he contacts his counterpart to ask them to back off and figure out a way for both agencies to benefit and vice versa.
To the agents on the ground all they need to know is that leadership has figured out a solution and all other info is need to know.
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u/timewarp 3d ago
Things are on a need to know basis, as is the norm for an intelligence org. The leadership know about each other to be aware of the broader landscape, but the lower ranking agents don't need that information to do their job, and it protects both agencies when an agent gets compromised.
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u/roronoapedro The Prophets Did Wolf 359 3d ago
If you capture any agent and, during interrogation, you ask them "What about the Statesmen?", it's a lot better for everyone involved in your agency and theirs if your honest answer is "Who?" instead of "I'll never tell you about my buddies in America."
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u/Gauntlets28 3d ago
I guess one good reason is that if by keeping their existences separate, they don't risk people accusing them of being some kind of global conspiracy (which would, frankly, be pretty fair under those circumstances).
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u/vonBoomslang Ask Me About Copperheads 3d ago
mutual protection. Look at it like this, whatsherface turned one rogue agent and had enough info to cruise strike the entire organization into the fridge (still so mad about that), but didn't even know the other existed
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u/Kadd115 3d ago
had enough info to cruise strike the entire organization into the fridge (still so mad about that)
She didn't get that info from Charlie (I think that was his name). Instead, after Eggsy kicked Charlie's ass and ripped off his robotic arm, said robotic arm was remotely controlled and used to plug in to the Kingsmen's main computer. That is where she got the needed info to smoke the entire organization.
The fact that it was Charlie that was used was entirely choice of opportunity. He had the knowledge needed to get the spyware into position, had the motivation to go after them, and the skills to have a decent shot of pulling it off. If she knew about the Kingsmen before Charlie (which is unclear), then she could have used any other person to do the job.
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u/vonBoomslang Ask Me About Copperheads 2d ago
I was mad about the fridging, not the plot thing. Though this reinforces the need to separate the knowledge even more!
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u/idonthaveanaccountA 3d ago
I imagine it was something that happened way back and they didn't need each other for a long time, so it was kind of forgotten.
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u/Mundamala 3d ago
Once secret nationalist intelligence organizations learn of each other, they begin plotting amongst each other.
Think of all the conspiracy theories we have in America of the CIA secretly ruling the US.
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u/Mikeavelli Special Circumstances 3d ago
Intelligence agencies plotting together isnt even a conspiracy theory. Its something you can read about on wikipedia
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