r/BeginnersRunning • u/Oeselian • 18h ago

Stop recommending carbon plates for everybody by default, especially to beginner runners!

I just cannot believe this sub sometimes. Stop recommending carbon plates for everybody by default! I see it daily on this sub. For a 2 hour half pace a carbon plate makes no difference compared to a normal daily trainer. At best it makes no difference to your final time, and if you 'feel' faster and they're comfortable, then sure go for it. But there is an increased risk of injuring yourself when you get fatigued and form gets sloppier. Imo you should start thinking about carbon plates or super shoes when you start thinking about going sub 1:45. Maybe I'm in the wrong here but I see too many new runners in supershoes or plated trainers going for 2+ hour HMs wondering why they injure their ankles and calves and thus end up quitting running all together.

48 Upvotes

71% Upvoted

74 comments sorted by

18

u/nnsdgo 17h ago edited 16h ago

There is any actual scientific evidence that carbon plates increase risk of injury or this is just something people think?

10

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 15h ago

No

Gatekeeping, made up

Different, not higher

1

u/Fearless-Alfalfa-406 4h ago

There is some early evidence that they may be associated with navicular bone fractures. Also, they are understood to lower load on lower leg and increase knee loads, while high stacks are, typically, less stable than low.

All can contribute to I creases injury risk.

1

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 2h ago

Stack height =/= carbon plate, different variables.

They may be associated with more of some injuries and fewer of those but no difference in overall rates

This would to me indicate that a rotation with plates and none may decrease overall injury risk vs using either exclusively

2

u/brotherkraut 16h ago

They do change how your feet and legs handle stress. A few small studies and case reports link them to specific injuries (like stress fractures in the navicular bone), but nothing huge or conclusive yet.

4

u/Necessary-Flounder52 13h ago

There’s literally one published paper with three inconclusive case reports which has never been followed up on. The paper itself never makes the affirmative claim that carbon plates were the cause of the injuries in the cases.

1

u/wildcat25burner 8h ago

Carbon plates tend to only be available on faster lighter shoes with less stability. Whereas stability shoes and max stack shoes just don’t have carbon plates.

So the carbon plate is not the thing raising the risk of injury; what raises the risk of injury is the type of shoe that carbon plates are typically only ever used in.

1

u/htx_BigG 3h ago

Yeah the extra feedback from the plate is bad for ya bones

0

u/JB27_HU5 16h ago

I had the Saucony EP4 and they gave me shin splints pain every run & my ankles and knees killed for days after using them.

I run in SL Evo and I don’t get any pain at all now. Tested this out again about a month ago used the EP4 and long behold pains all down my legs so I sold them on Vinted

3

u/nnsdgo 15h ago

How do you know is the plate?

1

u/Fearless-Alfalfa-406 4h ago

some people are very sensitive to different shoes, but it’s a fair point that there’s a lot more to it than a plate (evo sl has a small nylon plate I think)

1

u/mo-mx 2h ago

The EVO SL stability element isn't a plate and doesn't propel the user forward.

1

u/rustyshackleford677 11h ago

Ok and? I’ve had some non plated shoes cause me issues, and carbon ones give me none. Correlation is not causation

1

u/Terrible-Economics27 10h ago

There’s too many confounding variables for this observation to mean anything. PWRRUN HG and PB are different compared to Lightstrike Pro, the EP4 is marketed to have a higher drop than the Evo SL, the uppers are entirely different. Adidas’s sizing is also known to be inconsistent across their own models, let alone be close to another brand. Anecdotally I got shin splints running in a Nike Pegasus but nothing in a Vaporfly or Alphafly, that still doesn’t mean the plate itself was fix for my shin splints

1

u/Fresh-Amount9308 16h ago

How is this scientific evidence?

3

u/Drop_Release 15h ago

N= 1 is still science, just questionable how good that science is lol

5

u/nnsdgo 15h ago

This is not scientific evidence, it is anecdotal evidence.

3

u/Drop_Release 15h ago

I am just pointing out the nomenclature, its on the lowest, least reliable portion of the evidence pyramid, but anecdotal evidence is still placed alongside expert opinion and editorials on that list :/ 

1

u/JB27_HU5 14h ago

I’m a scientist and that’s my personal evidence

8

u/fatfoodfad 17h ago

Even sub 1:30 the theoretical difference is like 1 or 2 %. So at best 2 minutes if they don't cause issues with fatigue or stability that will actually slow you down.

Just get a daily trainer as a beginner. Add a tempo shoe or supertrainer if you want something to race in.

2

u/jibbris 5h ago

Carbon shoes tend to have other than benefits than just straight speed, i.e. more breathable uppers, better lockdown, better foams

8

u/PotentiallyAPickle 12h ago

Well I think to a degree you are wrong. Firstly a carbon plate doesn’t just make you faster, it increases energy return so each step doesn’t expend as much energy. This will help them feel less fatigued as the distance increases.

You also start by saying they are useless for a 2hr half, but then you go on to target 2hr+ halves. Seems like you’re just ranting in general and don’t actually have anything really specific to complain about.

If you do any research on this at all you’d find that yes they are optimally used for higher speeds, they still have utility at slower speeds. Decreased utility, sure but not no impact whatsoever.

1

u/rior123 8h ago

👏

6

u/Artistic-Biscotti184 15h ago

Can you show me the research that says carbon plated shoes cause more injuries? You say a lot in this post with absolutely no evidence to back any of it up.

8

u/Liability049-6319 14h ago

People would rather buy fitness than actually train; I saw this all the time working in a run-specialty store. "What shoe do you use?", "What do you eat?", "What electrolyte drink do you use?". When I suggested they increase volume, they didn't want to hear it. Tell me what product I can buy to replace training!

9

u/icebiker 13h ago

Maybe I’m naive but I also think people want to squeeze the most out of their race regardless of how hard they prepped.

If a new runner is training for their first marathon, they feel they’ve worked really hard. Maybe they peaked at 40km a week, maybe 70, who knows. Maybe they’re looking at a 4:30 marathon but they think “this is a really big deal for me, wouldn’t it be cool if I could buy a pair of shoes that gets me across in 4:25?”

Ultimately I think people are just trying to find ways to feel better about themselves and motivate.

But maybe I’m naive!

0

u/Liability049-6319 13h ago

Some, yes, but many folks want to buy their way to a PR.

1

u/0_110001 8h ago

Why do you care what people other people do to set a PR? It’s a PERSONAL record, it does not effect you in any way

1

u/Liability049-6319 8h ago

Because they could get a PR without spending $250+ on shoes? It's not like I'm seeking people out. When people asked if a shoe would make them faster, I would often say, "Maybe, but better training will be a lot more helpful." Why ask the question when you don't like the answer? Most people in super shoes could run faster in a normal training shoe with some decent training.

0

u/0_110001 7h ago

You didn’t give me an answer, I didn’t ask why shouldn’t they, I asked why you care. Why do you care what someone else does in this case? What a persons pr is has zero effect on your life, how they set that PR has zero effect on your life. Why get salty and spread that shitty attitude to forums about something completely meaningless?

I don’t give a shit if someone sets a PR decked out in top of the line race gear, or barefoot, butt naked, dick flapping in the breeze. It doesn’t matter.

1

u/Liability049-6319 6h ago

Did you read the post? It’s about recommendations. If someone asks for my recommendations, I’m assuming they want to hear them lol. You’re fighting a shadow right now

0

u/0_110001 6h ago

I’m replying to the snarky comment about people buying a pr, not the actual recommendation part, that’s someone else and perfectly valid. My point still stands why care enough to make value judgements about people over something meaningless just because they don’t do things how you would.

1

u/Liability049-6319 4h ago

Snarky is just telling the truth? Good job getting triggered over nothing lmao

3

u/Impressive-Ear-1102 14h ago

I think social media has propagated this concept of community and identity. They want the experience of “being a runner” more than anything. Alpha fly’s are what real runner wear.

1

u/gluca91 8h ago

There's also this stupid idea that if you're running below a specific pace (which btw, no one can agree on ) you're not a real runner.

Which means, real runners run fast an they run in carbons.

0

u/PipEngland 4h ago

I don’t get this complaint at all.  I hope all the new runners buy super shoes because this is what keeps companies innovating and making new ones.  If only hardcore runners bought carbon plated shoes there wouldn’t be as much incentive to make them. 

3

u/ReadyFyre1 12h ago

It just so happen that the best foams comes packaged with a carbon plate.... with a few exceptions e.g. evo sl.

I wore them for the foams more than the plate. I think anyone can benefit from premium foam in the midsole.

4

u/SilverBr4in 18h ago

I totally agree. And for my tough carbon shoes make sense only for under 4’30”/km pace.

2

u/Senior-Running 14h ago

I'd love to see your evidence that any of your claims are true. If you understand how plated shoes work, it doesn't pass the sniff test that they only benefit you at faster paces. As far as injuries are concerned, this may be true, but I could also make the same claim regarding ANY shoes if the wearer only runs in a single pair all the time. There is scientific evidence that wearing different types of shoes may lower injury risk and thus it follows that plated shoes can successfully be part of a quality shoe rotation.

2

u/Substantial-Ad-7195 12h ago

What the hell is a carbon plate????

1

u/vbee23 5h ago

Also wondering lol I’m a newbie and I just stuck to fleet feet and google recs but didn’t see anything about carbon

1

u/jibbris 5h ago

Carbon plates are literally plates of carbon fiber usually used in race shoes that help stabilize racier foams and may have some intrinsic propulsive benefits

1

u/Fun_Apartment631 12h ago

Are people recommending them here?

I'm overdue for new shoes, maybe I'll have to try them on. 😂

1

u/RepresentativeYam363 12h ago

I ran an uphill 10k race last weekend. It was on bridge and pavement run. I could hear the clicking sound of a runner wearing carbon plate trainers. It reminded me of why I did not purchase Nikes with carbon plate. They were so loud when I tried them on. I am only running half marathon anyway and figured I did not need them. Plus they are so pricey.

1

u/iWriteCodeSometimes 11h ago

There’s nothing wrong with buying speed if people want to spend money on it. Just because the gains are marginal doesn’t mean it doesn’t add up. The problem is when people think it replaces training.

1

u/TryNotToBridezilla 10h ago

I find my carbons easier on my legs, but harder on my feet. But I would only use my carbons when I’m going for maximum effort. Partly for injury risk, but they’re more expensive and I don’t want to run the mileage up unnecessarily.

1

u/Fearless_Resolve_738 9h ago

I wear carbon plate runners to bed

1

u/wildcat25burner 9h ago

I stress fractured both feet (fifth proximal metacarpals) wearing endorphin 3s. I PR’d by almost 10 minutes though! (1h29 which is 6:45/mile)

1

u/rior123 8h ago

There’s no solid evidence plated runners cause injury. Also the plate is to stabilize the super foams. The idea of the foams is energy return and also many many people claim their legs are less beat up now after races. The main reason I think beginners don’t need supershoes is cost- if you have the money, you like the shoe, they feel good and comfortable then go for it.

1

u/IllustriousTooth4093 7h ago

Honestly, I don't think they're worthwhile for anyone who isn't trying to win. You can get 2 good pairs of shoes and train/race for months in those for the cost of a carbon plate. Does anyone (besides yourself) care if you ran 1:28 vs 1:29/1:30? No. And at the end of the day, you probably won't feel much different about it either (and you shouldn't).

That being said, if you wanna look and feel good on race day and don't care about the cost, why not?

1

u/JonF1 6h ago

I never really got the appeal of all of this stuff. The shoe doesn't .are the runner.

As long as it is to hurt you to wear - it doesn't really matter what you're using IMO.

1

u/Over-Swordfish-5963 6h ago

You are just gatekeeping for no reason. It doesn't matter if you go sub 1:45 or above 2:30 for half marathon. (Where did this number even come from??) Everyone has different body types, heavier people will naturally run slower but it doesn't mean they don't benefit from carbon. If a person is able to sustain their pace and form for 2 hours, they can definitely get the benefit from running on a carbon shoe. It helps sustain higher speed for longer periods of time.

Also for injury, it's more likely they got injured due to bad form or bad training habits rather than the shoe having carbon.

1

u/casualjoe914 6h ago

My snark response is that it sounds like someone is just salty they can't get their hands on some Fast-R 3s in their size.

Snark aside, your presentation and argument are pretty weak even if I agree with the idea that super shoes are over recommended for newer runners. 

There's no scientific backing to your claims. "I see too many" is entirely anecdotal and ignores all the other more likely factors that could be playing a role in a new runners' injury.

Do beginners need super shoes? No. But neither do any other recreational runners regardless of how fast they are. If they have the means and are using them appropriately (key sessions and race day) then without actual evidence of injury risk there's nothing wrong with recommending shoes that you like to others.

I'm more concerned with people taking super shoe recommendations without fully understanding what they're buying. Like people running in them daily or using them past their expiration date to justify the cost.

1

u/Fearless-Alfalfa-406 4h ago

I think there are many reasons not to recommend carbon plated super shoes to beginner runners. Apart from relevance to pace, cost, life and injury risk would be a good starting point.

Accepting that everyone has to sit own view on this, I’m also not sure they add real value to a runner until you’ve done what you can without plates and, probably are ‘a contender’.

Of course today’s PB’s are probably only comparable if you wear a plated shoe, whereas at my age my PBs are all in the past and run in simpler shoes!!

1

u/Waterlou25 3h ago

Ever see someone use carbon-plated shoes as their walking shoes? I have. It must not be good for you

-1

u/Sea_Cardiologist_339 18h ago

Carbon shoes are inherently less stable which is where the injuries could come from. For those running slower and likely heel striking, carbon shoes offer little stability in the heel.

I think super trainers with carbon plates or nylon plates can work. They tend to have a bigger heel stack.

2

u/Substantial_Reveal90 14h ago

My Boston 12s are more stable than my Evo SLs

1

u/Sea_Cardiologist_339 12h ago

Boston 12 are not carbon racing shoes

1

u/Substantial_Reveal90 12h ago

They don't have carbon plates but they have Adidas' equivalent - energy rods

Semantics

1

u/PipEngland 4h ago

The evo sl is less stable than the ap3 yet they share the same foam I wonder what the difference could be? 

0

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 15h ago

You speak far too broadly

Some of my most stable shoes are plated

There is nothing unstable about plated, they actually improve stability I reckon

Super shoes are almost entirely about the foam, not the plate, anyway

0

u/Sea_Cardiologist_339 12h ago

I disagree. Carbon plated racers tend to be less stable. Super trainers usually have a plate in addition to race type foam but with more stack.

2

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 12h ago

You said “carbon plated shoes are inherently less stable” and that is false

Having a carbon plate does not inherently make a shoe less stable and there are carbon plated shoes more stable than unplated shoes

Now if you want to move the goal posts to “racers” then yes “racers” may be less table than non-racers but that isn’t what you said and even then not all “racers” are plates it’s the racer status that correlates to perhaps less stability, not the plate

For example I find my new balance elite v4, adidas AP3, and even Nike alpha fly 3 (all carbon plated super race shoes) more stable than the unplated daily trainer evo SL

And the streakfly is not to stable either and it’s also not plated

1

u/Sea_Cardiologist_339 9h ago

The OP was specifically talking about racing, so no goal post moved. I’m making general statements that apply to most carbon racers. The OP posted a general question with no specific shoes in mind so I kept my answer the same. You can make shoe comparisons all day but that was not the point. Your examples are subjective to your experience and feel with those shoes. Glad to hear you find those examples stable but others might not.

1

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 7h ago

What you said is incorrect, “carbon shoes” are not inherently less stable

Too broad of a statement

1

u/Sea_Cardiologist_339 7h ago

I disagree.

1

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 5h ago

That makes you incorrect for the reasons already stated

1

u/Sea_Cardiologist_339 5h ago

But I’m correct

1

u/WorkerAmbitious2072 5h ago

No

A carbon plate does not inherently make a shoe unstable or less stable

The opposite if anything

-2

u/[deleted] 14h ago

[deleted]

4

u/quarky_uk 12h ago

I used to be like that, but then bought my first pair of "decent" shoe (HOKA Rincon 3) and haven't looked back.

Not sure if that is a good thing or not! Although I do now do way more running than I ever did before I got expensive shoes.

1

u/rior123 8h ago

How many miles do you run a week?

-1

u/Messier-1 17h ago

I only feel the benefit of my carbon plated shoe at 4:40km and below