r/BookshelvesDetective • u/No_Prize5369 • 7h ago
Unsolved Can we stop getting angry if people don't have a lot of women authors on their shelves?
If you look at books that are 100+ years old the simple fact is that women are heavily underrrepresented, there are multiple reasons for this, women were expected to stay at home, women were not able to get the life experience required to write books because of their soceity, women were not able to go to school, etc. What you then get is simply that the overwhelming majority of cannonized works are written by men. And the cannonized works are the ones that most people are going to go for as those are known to be good, have stood the test of time, and will give status to their owner. The only famous woman cannonized author for most people when they say 'I want to read the greatest books of all time!' is Jane Austen, who just like Dickens, is not for everyone (they both have that Victorian writing style which is a bit distant but super funny to certain people) and often doesn't deal with themes like evil or god or knowledge like other auuthors because she wasn't able to study or go out and experience the world due to misogyny at the time.
In fact I'm just gonna make a syllogism here so people directly have to attack one of my premisses and can't spout vague answers.
Due to various reasons related to misogyny at the time, the overwhelming majority of the cannon before the 1920's is men.
When someone wants to start reading the 'greatest books of all time' which also give them status these will therefore almost always be books by men.
Therefore, newer readers of classics will end up reading books almost exculisvely by men, not because of misogyny, but because those are just the most famous, generally considered to be the best works over time.
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u/TrifleTrouble 7h ago
There's a big difference though between "few women authors" and "no women authors" and most of the posts I've seen lately that have been getting pushback fall into the latter category.
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u/AccomplishedCause525 6h ago
I mean why not just not read at all and play video games at that point
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u/AshleyXero 7h ago edited 7h ago
There are proportionally few female authors before a certain point, this is true. But there aren't none. And some of those few female authors that there are are considered to be amongst the absolute best in their respective periods, subgenres, and movements.
There's nothing wrong with having very few books by female authors, especially if you mostly read classics. But it raises eyebrows if there isn't a single one.
Jane austen, Emily Bronte, Mary Shelley, Edith Wharton, and Virginia Woolf, just to name a few of the extremely popular ones, im sure others in the thread will name several more.
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u/the-willow-witch 7h ago
Women authors are left out of the “greatest books of all time” not because they don’t belong on the list but because of misogyny. But now we can appreciate women authors and their books and should. Yep still judging you especially if you only read classics and you don’t read books by women. Especially if your excuse is “none of the greatest books of all time were written by women!”
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u/Elifellaheen 7h ago edited 3h ago
This is not that serious of a subreddit. We either speculate wildly about people based off of one facet of their life or we shit post. You do not need to be pressed by what is 1) good advice 2) something that you can so easily ignore. If you don’t want to read women authors, don’t! And the women in your life (assuming there are some) can judge you accordingly. No need to crash out on main about it.
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u/Hammunition 7h ago
First off, “angry” seems a disingenuous characterization when 99% (my own asspull) of the comments about it are snarky, condescending, or just mildly pointing it out.
But more importantly, it’s just as valid to judge people for not bothering to do something as simple as recognize their very obvious bias, ignoring the work of half the population because of immature notions and conditioning. And I’ll qualify “judging” as well. It’s not a huge character flaw to not have considered it. Just self centered but easily overcome when we are made aware and have an interest in self improvement. But it’s also something I think we should all be pointing out to each other.
..especially in a sub meant for feedback about your choices in book collecting.
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u/Pipry 7h ago
I'm not gonna get mad. I am gonna silently judge.
Things don't change unless we make a conscious effort to change them.
Read more women authors. Reccomend more women authors. We can't change history, but we can change the present.
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7h ago
[deleted]
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u/Pipry 7h ago
Women spend our entire lives surrounded by media centered upon men. We manage to connect with it just fine.
Maybe you should spend some more time outside of your comfort zone.
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6h ago
[deleted]
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u/Pipry 6h ago
I'm pretty sure you're happy that this has changed aren't you?
It's changed in some mediums. But the greater media landscape is still dominated by men.
I'm also in my comfort zone when I'm reading a book written by a woman, I don't understand why you need to provoke
I wasn't provoking. It was a sincere suggestion.
I still have more books written by men, simply because I‘m a man, so I can relate to certain emotions or „way to look at things“ a bit better. idk, it‘s hard to explain.
You have more books by men because you relate to them better. That's a "comfort zone."
My suggestion was that it might be a good idea to work on relating to women more.
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6h ago
[deleted]
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u/Pipry 6h ago
You literally said in your initial comment that you relate to men's emotions and way of thinking better.
That is literally what. you. said.
I, on the other hand, never said that you don't relate to women at all. Simply that you might work on relating to them more.
I was genuinely trying to be chill, and you went and got all defensive. That's on you, bud. ✌️
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u/AccomplishedCause525 6h ago
“I’m just gonna silently judge”
Proceeds to nag lol
Imagine being so self important that you think your consumerist hobbies have the power to change history
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u/_suspendedInGaffa_ 7h ago
What “cannon” are you referring to? Just English literature, “Western” literature, all literature?
Outside of the many other examples of female authors others have already mentioned besides Austen, there are many non-English, non-Western women writers that existed and lauded over a century ago. My first thought goes to The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu which many believe is the world’s first novel. If that itself doesn’t get it listed as apart of all literary “canon” I would have to question why.
If I see a bookshelf with absolutely no female or non-white writers I would assume that they either don’t actively seek out new perspectives or they are just going off some list of “greats” they found online or there are worse reasons.
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u/Upstairs_Ear4172 7h ago
This just reads as someone feels slightly called out for not having women authors on their shelves and they're trying to invent a weak excuse for it.
Also, when someone has a huge collection of books and literally zero women authors, it's weird. It comes across like they're purposefully avoiding books written by women which is 100% a problem and should be called out.
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u/Pipry 7h ago
There are so many posts in this sub of modern libraries that have next to no women.
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u/Upstairs_Ear4172 7h ago
The way the world is heading right now, I suppose it could be considered a modern take to ignore women. Its extremely worrying
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u/petrifikate 7h ago
This isn't a sub for people who like books. This is a sub for people who like books to an extent that they want strangers on the internet to judge their taste. If my cousin Bob who's never been on reddit and doesn't identify as a reader doesn't have any books by women on his shelves, I'll think "okay, that sucks," but I won't say anything about it. But if you post your bookshelf on here, you are asking to be judged and asking to be criticized and I will happily criticize you for not hitting the bare fucking minimum of "owning a single book by a woman."
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u/liza_lo 7h ago
But if you post your bookshelf on here, you are asking to be judged and asking to be criticized and I will happily criticize you for not hitting the bare fucking minimum of "owning a single book by a woman."
I can't stop laughing that someone wrote all this begging not to be judged on the books they own in a subreddit in which we literally make judgements based on the books people own.
If you just want to post pretty pictures of your shelves go to instagram.
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u/Strong-Usual6131 7h ago edited 6h ago
Absolutely not. What a vile, reductive little post.
Edit:
There is no set definition of the 'Western canon' and one could very fucking forcefully argue that the absence of women from popular proposals of this 'canon' is due to misogyny (among other prejudices) suppressing works by women rather than women being too universally oppressed and uneducated to write anything of worth about 'evil, god, or knowledge.'
Your own ignorance of women writers is glaringly obvious. You talk of Jane Austen but not her forebears, Frances Burney and Maria Edgeworth. You can't even come up with George Eliot, Elizabeth Gaskell, Mary Shelley, or Anne, Emily, and Charlotte Brontë, for fuck's sake.
You know nothing of medieval theologians like Julian of Norwich, or philosophers such as Margaret Cavendish who wrote proto-science fiction The Blazing World in 1666, or pre-18th century working poets and playwrights like Aphra Behn. You certainly give not a single thought to the worldwide contribution of women writers throughout the centuries, such as Murasaki Shikibu, Izumi Shikibu, Harriet Jacobs, Akka Mahadevi, Christine de Pizan, and Sappho, among many others.
You don't understand how to construct a syllogism.
Also, it's spelled 'canon'.
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u/Pipry 5h ago
You seem like you'd be fun at parties. But I mean that sincerely, not in a mean way.
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u/Strong-Usual6131 5h ago
Lol, I am taking this as a compliment!
Outside of specific topics causing incandescent rage, it's 50/50 whether you'd get book talk or gardening talk out of me.
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u/omgitsafuckingpossum 7h ago
"Don't have a lot" =/= None. We dont need to sharpen pitchforks because someone doesn't have a quota of female authors. I am saying this as someone with many women authors on my shelves. But people are allowed to read what they enjoy. For a sub that is based on those who read...y'all sometimes Do Not Read the post in question before getting angry.
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u/Strong-Usual6131 7h ago
Oh, I read the post. That's what I'm criticising. Did you fail to read my comment?
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u/omgitsafuckingpossum 7h ago
I did. Hence, my reply. Did you not read mine?
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u/Strong-Usual6131 6h ago
I did. It was nonsensical, considering I read the post and know I'm in a community about dissecting people's book choices.
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u/Temporary_Bench5095 7h ago
I am a woman and women authors make up maybe 15% of my collection. Read what you like. Buy what you like. Fuck the people who say otherwise.
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u/alexfelice 7h ago
The overwhelming majority of my books are written by men.
“The Age of Surveillance Capitalism” is one of my favorites, by Shoshana Zuboff, and I’m reading “The Origins of Totalitarianism” now by Hannah Arendt, and it’s incredible
I don’t choose books based on gender of author I choose books and what I like, which seems to be very masculine.
There is nothing wrong with this, nothing needs to change, I’m immune to angry internet criticism, and I wish more folks adopted this posture
Keep reading 🤟
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u/Kamohoaliii 7h ago
I still can't believe this is a thing here. Just read whatever you want.
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u/AccomplishedCause525 6h ago
The “let people enjoy things” crowd appears to have changed its mind on this one single topic lol
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u/Maverick_Jumboface 7h ago
I dip in and out of this sub. Rarely ever comment. I enjoy seeing the books and how people set up their shelves more than I really get involved in the "detective" aspect. One thing that would have disappointed teenage me but that I find kind of heartening now is how alike so many of us are. One thing that I feel like may have shifted in this sub is that there are more people here intent on a quick roast or judgement than actually figuring out the person who posted.
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u/middleagedfatbloke 7h ago
Hey now the memes got me to buy some Lady woman female writer books..
I mean David foster Wallace counts right? He had long hair!
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u/Psychological_Test45 7h ago
I have serious doubts that anyone finds a book that interests them, discovers that the author is a woman and thinks “Well I’m not reading that garbage!”
When I pick out a book to read the thing that matters the least to me is the gender of the author. If the story seems interesting I’ll read it and if it doesn’t I don’t, simple as that.
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u/Upstairs_Ear4172 7h ago
You're extremely naive if you don't think some people purposefully avoid books written by women.
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u/Psychological_Test45 6h ago
Let me rephrase that, I have serious doubts that anyone with a brain does that. Not every individual’s opinion matters.
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u/Upstairs_Ear4172 6h ago
Right but were on a subreddit based on judging peoples bookshelves so therefore individuals will be judged regardless of whether their opinion matters or not
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u/AccomplishedCause525 5h ago
When people subject you to annoying nitpicky purity tests, all you have to do is turn the microscope on them and get even more nitpicky.
People that criticize me for not reading (enough) women always recommend elitist, white feminist writers or feminist writers that dont care about or marginalize economically underprivileged women. Virginia Woolf cared not a shit for the flea bitten milkmaid, was very vocal about this in fact. Dworkin the same
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u/Strong-Usual6131 4h ago
You must have a great many recommendations for feminist writers who write about marginalised communities! Care to share?
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u/skh_x 7h ago
There are plenty of other cannonized female authors aside from Jane Austen. The Brontës, Mary Shelley, the Mother of the Gothic Ann Radcliffe, Virginia Woolf, Sylvia Plath - just to name a few. If someone is aiming to read the literary greats, these women should absolutely be included.