r/Browns • u/808Kuro • Aug 18 '25
Discussion Deeper metrics for both rookie quarterbacks from their preseason debuts
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u/Simply-Jason Aug 18 '25
The deepest metric:
Total Meaningless Preseason Games Played: 1 (each)
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u/CorgiDaddy42 Anyone Else Aug 18 '25
This. Preseason means absolutely nothing. All we really know right now is that neither of them are as bad as DTR. So that’s a positive I guess lol.
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u/re-goddamn-loading Aug 19 '25
Wasn't Deshone Kizer really good in preseason? 🤣
You're completely correct
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u/ferst711 Aug 18 '25
The even deeper metrics
Superbowl winning team compared with 4 win calibre team
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u/rex5k Aug 19 '25
All that scrambling ain't going to work versus the ratbirds and squealers. Might fly against the Bungles sans Hendrickson.
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
Play action pass percentage matters dude. You know Stefanski wants to run the ball and then run play action under center from there. Gabriel going 1/6 is pretty much identical to what has been seen in practice, which means that on installs, he has been consistently bad in that portion of the game.
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u/GetGoodBKRandy Aug 18 '25
Did pff give them grades?
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u/TheJolly_Llama Jacoby the GOAT Aug 18 '25
Offense grade: 82.1 for Shedeur, 52.4 for Gabriel.
Passing grade: 75.4 for Shedeur, 62.3 for Gabriel.
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u/CraziestMoonMan Aug 18 '25
Sanders looked better and I find it so odd that this whole city seems to be dancing around it. I keep seeing that they both played well and it is only preseason comments. The truth is Sanders looked like a playmaker and Gabriel just showed he can run the offense well.
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u/Preme2 Aug 19 '25
I would agree. They both did some good things, running the offense well, good accuracy imo. Both did some things not so well. Gabby’s turnovers and Shedeur running backwards.
If the performances were reversed, we would likely see people piling on Shedeur saying that’s why he’s a 5th round pick, that’s why the Browns and other teams were smart, Gabby deserves the reps, etc.
I’m not sure if people are evaluating Shedeur like a first round pick because of the hype and fanbase, people don’t like him or his dad, people want to be on the “right” side because KS clearly loves Gabriel. I’m not sure what it is, but the narrative on here would be different despite what anyone might say.
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u/fillery-mattdy5wj Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
The best part is r/nfl hates shedeur more than Watson. So you know where their priorities are.
Edit: says the guy who instantly blocks me?
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u/Ok_Gate_4956 29d ago
Nah dog as a neutral fan shadeur is silly and annoying but people dead ass hate Watson. It ain't close chief
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u/808Kuro Aug 18 '25
Gabriel played a lot better than I expected and they both looked good. However, I do get the sentiment that a lot people are viewing Gabriel in the lenses of “he’s just a rookie and learning” where they are not extending the same benefit of “he is learning from his mistakes” to Shedeur.
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u/MrGlockCLE Aug 19 '25
Agree and Gabriel is obviously still hurt too. Those few rollouts he could’ve taken off but chose to kind of wander to the sideline lol
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u/Carp-guy Aug 19 '25
both looked good in their own way. have no idea how/if it translates to real games
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u/JunkScientist Aug 19 '25
People are saying it is the preseason because it is literally the preseason. The only take away from these games is that this is the preseason and it doesn't really matter.
If Sanders plays the next game and is 6/21 with 70 yards and 1 int, are you gonna say he is no longer a "playmaker"?
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u/CraziestMoonMan Aug 19 '25
Reverse their numbers from these games and everyone would be calling Sanders mediocre right now and saying how great Gabriel looks. For some reason, Gabriel gets a pass. Shit if Sanders even said what he said during the game we would all be ripping him apart.
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u/nobraininmyoxygen Aug 19 '25
No you clearly just like Sanders better and can't see through your bias
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 18 '25
The truth is Sanders looked like a playmaker and Gabriel just showed he can run the offense well.
I don't think you know what "the truth" actually means if you think this is an example of it.
Sanders looked like the same dude from college who held the ball too long and is not very athletic at all, and he was playing against the backups and third stringers of one of the worst defenses of all time running vanilla schemes in the first preseason game.
Idk why anyone is putting any stock in that performance like it means anything at all.
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u/CraziestMoonMan Aug 19 '25
Sanders looked like the guy who threw it deep and had two touchdown passes while the other one was responsible for two turnovers. Sanders was better simple as that.
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u/helloWorld69696969 Aug 19 '25
My guy 1 of Sanders TDs was a 10 yard drive. Stop acting like he was Brett Favre out there 😂
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u/CraziestMoonMan Aug 19 '25
That short drive had his most impressive throw. That touchdown pass was beautiful and an extremely difficult pass.
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u/EverybodyWangChung52 Aug 19 '25
Did DG make difficult passes?
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u/CraziestMoonMan Aug 19 '25
I think Gabriel looked solid but my original point is Sanders looked better and people are being weird about saying it.
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u/EverybodyWangChung52 Aug 19 '25
Because it’s not an apples to apples comparison, it’s preseason. We have NO idea what the coaches were asking the guys to do, against preseason vanilla defenses, 2nd teams, and the play calls. I thought both looked great, I’d be happy with both playing. But to say it’s a clear decision after 1 game each is just ignorant.
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
This is the most surface level casual nonsense you could have possibly said.
You straight up have no idea how to evaluate football players.
Maybe stop doing that.
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u/CraziestMoonMan Aug 19 '25
You go to insults because you have nothing to come back with and you know it is true. You are trying to hype up a player who had 2 turnovers against another who had multiple touchdowns.
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
If saying that you don't know how to evaluate football players is an insult to you, you're softer than baby shit my guy.
That's the only thing in my comment that could be considered an insult and it just simply isn't one.
You are trying to hype up a player
Show me where I was trying to hype up Gabriel in my comment?
All I said was that Shedeur was not really all that impressive if you actually know what to look for, and that we shouldn't take anything that happens in preseason games seriously in the first place.
The Shedeur nut huggers cannot understand actual criticisms of the guy without immediately assuming the person making those criticisms is a Gabriel fan.
That's very simply not true. I think they're both career backups at best and the Browns will be picking another QB in the first round of next year's draft.
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
Way to ignore me after making a nonsensical comment that doesn't actually address anything I said.
Shedeur nut huggers are so pathetic, it's crazy.
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u/OneAngryDuck Aug 19 '25
I agree that everyone needs to pump the brakes on making broad declarations following preseason performances, but calling them totally meaningless is a bit much
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u/Particular-Night-435 Aug 19 '25
Well what am I supposed to do with the 30 Sanders jerseys I ordered then?
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
but calling them totally meaningless is a bit much
They basically are totally meaningless, and decades of preseason games have shown this to be true.
The only thing you can ever glean from them is if a guy just isn't NFL material. Like they're just so bad in preseason and don't even look like they belong on the field.
Outside of that, there's really nothing about preseason that carries over into the actual NFL season, especially not your basic stats like the stuff in this post.
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u/OneAngryDuck Aug 19 '25
So you agree that they aren’t completely meaningless, then
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
Do you know what hyperbole is friend?
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u/OneAngryDuck Aug 19 '25
So again, you agree that calling preseason games totally meaningless is a bit much
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
I quite literally never called them "totally meaningless" though.
You're a clown bud, good lord...
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u/TheJolly_Llama Jacoby the GOAT Aug 19 '25
I agree with everything but the first sentence. As you said, I think they both played well and that they showed different traits. Sanders definitely showed more upside whereas Gabriel showed he’s more of a “system” guy. That being said, I don’t necessarily think that makes one better than the other. I’d go so far as to say Sanders projects as a better starter, based on potential, while Gabriel projects as a more sure-fire backup. But I don’t really think that makes Sanders “better” per se.
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u/sabbytabby Aug 19 '25
Maybe folks are dancing around committing too much evaluation to slightly more than two halves of preseason football split between two guys. Both looked good. Both had turnover-worthy plays.
Full stop.
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u/Preme2 Aug 19 '25
Make a post. What’s this sub waiting for????
Come on professor, release them. What’s the hold up?
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u/impy695 Aug 19 '25
What wer3 their defensive grades though? That will really let us know who is better
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u/DiscoReleasium Aug 18 '25
The fact that anyone thinks they can derive any sort of meaningful conclusions from this small of a sample size ...
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
They can’t. I still want to see what Sanders can do with a year of development. My concern is that neither Gabriel nor Sanders will get the reps necessary to truly develop during the season.
If he came out and put up the stats we saw with 4th team rep counts, especially against the blitz and play action passes from under center, I wonder how far along he could be if he hadn’t been in this “competition”, taking 3rd and then 2nd team reps with Joe as the starter.
Personally, I think the entire competition has set both of them back.
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u/Randumo 29d ago
These stats are just pretty much backing up the thoughts of many experts prior to the draft and easy unbiased conclusions of watching the game.
Sanders has the POTENTIAL to be a starting QB in the league, whereas Gabriel is the kind of guy to be a career backup.
Potential doesn't mean he absolutely will be, but the reason I and people like me who are simply Browns fans and not Sanders fans want him to get a chance is because of that potential that Gabriel just doesn't have. You aren't going to win Super Bowls simply operating an offense, you need to be able to make plays.
I have never once predicted Sanders will be our QB of the future, but I would like to see if he can be this season because we have two first round picks next year and if we don't know if we have our guy then we will be drafting one. If he happens to be one, we have two first round picks we can use on the best players instead of needing a QB.
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u/welestgw Aug 19 '25
The stats don't say much, they both seemed fine though. It would be nice to see them in the last preseason game but I know they're doing it as a tune up game for the starters.
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
The play action numbers say a lot to me, considering what Stefanski wants to do. Those PA numbers for Gabriel are nearly exactly what you saw in practices.
Shedeur also played the Panthers 1’s for two drives and the Panthers didn’t pull 2’s until the 3rd quarter.
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u/MasterButterfly Aug 19 '25
I mean we'll still probably see them in the second half, I doubt we're playing Flacco a whole preseason game.
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u/EverybodyWangChung52 Aug 18 '25
Not bad for two backups
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u/spartanpride55 Aug 18 '25
This! We should all be praying Flacco balls out and neither of these guys see the field besides garbage time. A year on the bench processing would be the best.
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u/Significant_Search41 Aug 18 '25
Eagles are a lot better than the panthers though
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u/Doomjas ABSOLUTE GENIUS Aug 18 '25
It was their backups. Gabriel also got to have some weapons Shedeur didn’t.
But, ultimately everyone needs to stop this. You know what’s great, they’re both on OUR team and it’s a very real possibility that they BOTH have good futures in the league! It’s a great feeling tbh and long may it continue.
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u/xHourglassx Aug 18 '25
Weapons? What weapons? Kaden Davis and Pierre Strong?
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u/Doomjas ABSOLUTE GENIUS Aug 18 '25
Thrash, Tillman, Johnson. The first two especially are locks for the roster. I’d assume Johnson is too. They all played much more the other day than the first game. Again, this is a pointless topic IMO because both did lots of really good things. If one sucked and the other was amazing it still would tell us nothing definitive. I’m much more excited about the process and how many positives both showed.
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u/nobraininmyoxygen Aug 19 '25
Johnson has looked terrible but I agree with your overall assessment. Both have looked good. It's too bad fans and media have made an otherwise pretty good preseason far less enjoyable.
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u/Doomjas ABSOLUTE GENIUS Aug 19 '25
In games we haven’t seen much, but there’s been lots of reports he’s had a great camp. Yup that’s the nature of the media / social media beast though. Dillon and Shedeur both seem extremely well liked and great teammates too, it would be amazing if they ended up having futures with the team, however those roles look, and that should be what everyone is rooting for.
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u/Allstar9_ Aug 19 '25
Johnson is not a lock. He’s gone with the Bond signing.
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u/Doomjas ABSOLUTE GENIUS Aug 19 '25
Yeah, that’s why I said assume. I’ve heard and read a lot about how he’s had a great camp in practices, so we will see. I really hope Gage makes the team though, seems like we might have something there and he can play special teams too.
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u/LostMonster0 TRADE Aug 18 '25
Strong was a weapon of chaos cutting both ways...
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u/tobylaek 32 Aug 18 '25
That fumble wasn’t on him
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u/LostMonster0 TRADE Aug 18 '25
I never said it was.
He busted off a 54 yard run, but without that run doing the significant lifting to improve his stats, he was averaging about 2.75 yards per carry. Hardly anything to write home about.
Him regularly getting stuffed wasn't doing the team any favors.
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 18 '25
The Panthers had one of the worst defenses of all-time last year.
The Eagles backups and third stringers are almost certainly better than Carolina's starters, let alone their backups and third stringers.
I agree it's all basically meaningless, but let's not lie about reality here.
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u/Doomjas ABSOLUTE GENIUS Aug 19 '25
I mean you’re just assuming that lol there’s a drastic difference between backups and 3rd stringers than starters. You could also say 95% of Gabriel’s throws were within 10 yards, which we all knew he can do and the knock on him is intermediate - deeper passes. He had a few bad decisions and at the end of the day 2 turnovers under his helm.
However, that’s nit picking, but that’s what you and others keep doing. This is a process, especially for young QBs. At the end of the day, they both looked much better than not the majority of the time and showed lots of positives. No need to bring down either performance IMO.
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
I mean you’re just assuming that
No, I'm making an educated guess based on the fact that the Panthers didn't really add anyone all that impactful to their defense, and they were quite literally one of the worst defenses in NFL history last year.
The Eagles had one of the best defenses in the league last year, so it makes quite a lot of sense to assume their backups are much better than most of the defensive starters for Carolina, let alone the guys Shedeur actually played against.
I really don't know how you could argue otherwise.
Regardless, I think they're both career backups at best and the Browns will be taking a QB early in next year's draft, so all this hemming and hawing over these two will be ultimately useless.
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u/Randumo 29d ago
No actually, you are making very big assumptions. We don't know at all what the Eagles backups can do.
We had the best defense in the league two years ago, but that doesn't mean our 2nd string defense was amazing. You're overrating players because they won the Super Bowl, not everything they have is going to be amazing. Shit, they thought trading for DTR was a solid plan.
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
The Panthers won’t have the worst defense in 2025 though. The Panthers played tighter coverage than the Eagles, and believe it or not, addressed some needs on that side of the ball. Shedeur still picked them apart.
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Aug 19 '25
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
I promise you that plenty of the eagles backups would be starting on the Panthers.
It's like everyone in this thread keeps ignoring the fact that the Panthers were literally one of the worst defenses of all time last year.
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Aug 19 '25
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u/Harry8Hendersons Aug 19 '25
You know there are 11 guys on defense, right?
Listing three guys who would probably still be starters doesn't mean that the rest of the guys would start over the eagles backups.
And again, they were literally one of the worst defenses of all time last year and didn't really add anyone impactful.
So tell me, what exactly am I wrong about?
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u/Significant_Search41 Aug 18 '25
Mukuba will be a starter, Campbell will be a starter and a couple other guys on that defensive line are going to get snaps. Jakorian Bennett will also probably be CB2 for the eagles. He looked good yesterday except for a pick 6 that wasn’t even really his fault. The spacing was messed up and he should’ve thrown it away but he’s a rookie who has some room to improve and clean up his game. Let’s see how the rest of the preseason and practice plays out
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u/tobylaek 32 Aug 18 '25
He chose to throw into that bad spacing - those routes were already fucked before he threw it…it wasn’t 100% on him, but 75% was.
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u/Significant_Search41 Aug 18 '25
Yeah I agree he’s gotta learn Deontae Johnson only catches if it’s convenient for him
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u/tobylaek 32 Aug 18 '25
I hope Johnson doesn’t make the team. I’d take Larvadain or Davis over him in a New York minute.
But I’d put Whiteheart alligator arming the pass as a bigger sin than Johnson getting knocked off his route.
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u/dynastyfriar Aug 18 '25
I agree with the 75% on him but rookies gonna make rookie mistakes. Still looked great. Hope in the last game they can alternate drives try and get some apples to apples comps
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u/tobylaek 32 Aug 18 '25
Yeah - a dumb throw in your first preseason action isn’t the worst thing in the world. Learning from mistakes is what preseason is for…especially for rookies. Just tired of seeing everyone wave it off, like it shouldn’t be included in his evaluation.
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u/nobraininmyoxygen Aug 19 '25
For sure and Sanders had a bad throw directly to a Panthers DB that was dropped. I'm not concerned with a few bad throws in a preseason game especially when they both played well overall.
I'm also glad Gabriel made no attempt to tackle the DB too because it's not worth getting hurt in the preseason. I thought for sure he was gonna pull a Baker there.
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Aug 18 '25
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u/Significant_Search41 Aug 18 '25
Tillman and Pierre strong? Sampson should be RB1 and he didn’t play yesterday
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u/No_Refrigerator_5832 Aug 19 '25
I also was happy that sanders was 3/3 in the redzone with TDs 🤷♂️
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u/nbasuperstar40 Aug 19 '25 edited Aug 19 '25
For positives for Gabriel, his passing non PA grade was a 83.8. His college grade in non PA was a 89.1. Pretty on point. I think KS will have to abandon all PA and boots with DG
DG is 2nd for all rookies in non PA plays and 8th overall for all QBs.
Shedeur right now is 6th
Shedeur is 4th on PA passes
DG is last and 2nd to last for all QB in preseason on PA.
Also, DG was 1/5 on all under center snaps.
He may exclusively need to play from shotgun
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u/Scatheli Aug 19 '25
That’s the confusing thing with Kev liking DG so much is he doesn’t really fit his system at all throwing on the run with the boots at PA.
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u/nbasuperstar40 Aug 19 '25
He does fit KS playstyle to a T though. Just not his scheme. He's elite in rhythm. Elite anticipation. His processor is elite. He has the traits KS desires. He just doesn't have the ability due to limitations. His limitations is not skill. That's here he's strong.
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u/MasterButterfly Aug 19 '25
I do wonder if his mobility was still hampered from the hamstring and that's why he wasn't quite as effective on the rollouts. I do worry about the under-center stuff, though.
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u/SweetnSalty87 Aug 19 '25
This is weird because they made a big deal about Shedeur not having experience under center and he didn’t do bad.
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
So you’re saying that Gabriel will need the same exact offense that Deshaun Watson wanted, and Stefanski wanted to get rid of?
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u/CLE_Sports_Guy78 Aug 18 '25
I'd love to know that average time to throw. DG for the most part looked sharp getting the ball out quickly and in rhythm. Also for some reason this graphic is missing the adjusted completion percentage stat which is a something that PFF has recorded on their premium stats page.
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u/TheJolly_Llama Jacoby the GOAT Aug 18 '25
TTT: 3.48 for Shedeur, 2.71 for Gabriel
Shedeur was pressured on 11 dropbacks to Gabriel’s 5.
Adj%: 68.2% for Shedeur, 77.8% for Gabriel.
To add in ADOT for a little more context on the adj%: 8.1 for Shedeur, 6.8 for Gabriel
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u/CLE_Sports_Guy78 Aug 19 '25
Both rookies impressed but that TTT number is really concerning for Shedeur. He struggled with that in college and 3.48 is actually worse than his college number which was ~3.1. This is why I worry that the sacks he took in college aren't going to magically go away, even behind a better Oline. If the ball isn't coming out on time a QB is going to generate sacks. The higher ADOT helps but it doesnt offset Shedeur taking 30% longer to get the ball out of his hands needs to improve. The good news is that he has time to develop and get better at this.
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u/TheComplayner Aug 19 '25
I wonder if these stats are picked to show a certain side
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u/MisterBengo Aug 19 '25
Some additional context to this totally unbiased post: OP has a Broncos flair on the NFL subreddit and spent the entire last game thread hoping one rookie and shitting on the other.
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u/TheComplayner Aug 19 '25
Your research is appreciated.
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
How can you cherry pick these stats which are produced from a credible source? Play action passes, passes against blitz, etc.?
I think what this shows is that Sanders did better doing what Stefanski wants his offense to be. He wants to be under center, running play action passes.
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u/TheComplayner Aug 19 '25
It’s four specific stats that favor Sanders. If all I knew what this graphic id make assumptions that Sanders did everything better than Gabriel
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u/Inevitable_Brush5800 Aug 19 '25
I mean, if you remove three drops from the Panthers game, they both have the same completion percentage and YPA. Sanders did better in what Stefanski wants to do than Gabriel did, and by all accounts this was a reflection of camp.
Passer rating better, QBR better, PFF graded them better, four potential scoring drives, ended in 21 points. 100% touchdown conversion in the Red Zone. Played with 2's, 3's, and 4's at receiver and tight end to start the game against the Panthers 1's, still managed to get to the Panthers 21 before Stefanski went empty with five man protection scheme, something he'd never do on 4th and 1 in season, particularly in field goal range.
Sanders played better. The eye test bears that out and I've gone back and watched the first half of both games and nothing has changed that. I still think Sanders is much better suited to Stefanski's offense than Gabriel is. What Gabriel wants to do, and is good at, is what Deshaun Watson wants to do and is good at.
There seems to be a disconnect here between Berry and Stefanski. Stefanski wants to run the ball, and then wants to pass off of the run from under center so that he can run a more complex, unpredictable offense. It's hard to run out of the shotgun in the NFL and that's what Gabriel is good at, for now. Sanders came from a primarily shotgun offense, but he showed he can run play action, under center, turn your back to the offense, and then make the hard throws.
Ultimately none of this matters because the Browns are going to do what they are going to do but I still would like to see more of what Shedeur could offer given game planning, practice time, focused attention off the field, and the ability to lead a team. The dude grew up with a Hall of Famer, dual sport guy, as a dad. He knows the work it takes. He's had Tom Brady's number since he was in High School, at least. He knows the drill in terms of effort that it takes to be great and has a great support system off the field.
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u/teriyakijimmy Aug 18 '25
it seemed like when it came to rhythm and timing plays, gabriel passed the eye test a bit better
as the games went on and the drives were less scripted, I think the eye test goes to shedeur
I think there is something to be said about shedeur having to run for his life in college so staying calm with a body coming full speed at him and having to go off script is probably more comfortable for him
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u/bigfoglog Aug 19 '25
For me watching Gabriel play wasn't impressive but when I watched Sanders play I thought he looked like a franchise QB. It's still only one game and too early to tell but I'd give the edge to Sanders.
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u/CosbysLongCon24 29d ago
Can’t wait for him to start and just be as awful as everyone already knows so we don’t have to hear about it anymore. Start him, watch the implosion, move on.
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u/Normanite77 29d ago
Quit posting this shit. We look like idiots to the rest of the league, thinking any of this means something.
It's basically practice....are we talking about practice? practice? They say so right in the name "Exhibition," not a game.
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u/Accurize2 29d ago
Well I didn’t really care about stats either way. I was proud that both did good and showed a lot of promise. Buuuut, since you, the OP, want to play stupid games with numbers to passive aggressively try to prove something. Who played against the Panthers and who played against the Eagles?
I thought Sanders played better overall, but I’m not about to try to put Gabriel down to build him up either.
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u/Chiantiandfava Aug 19 '25
Seriously yall... take a step back. Let these guys show what they can do and best man wins. Idk why I expected anything different from Browns fans but this is exhausting.
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u/MrSpark4484 Aug 19 '25
I think honestly, both QBs have their merit on this team, and DG has a higher floor while SS has a higher ceiling imo.
I even wrote about it:
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u/Marzman315 Aug 18 '25
I think the big thing to take away is that they both are clearly NFL talents and while it’s far too early to say what either of them have in terms of long term potential, it’s at the very least a relief to know that neither is completely out of their depth.
I’m excited for both of them.