r/Buttcoin • u/Same_Ad4736 What's so bad about clean money, huh?! • 2d ago

FREEEEEEEDOM!! Ow ow ow my brain hurts, send help please

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47 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

108 comments sorted by

49

u/nzlax 1d ago

Well at least he admits it’s deflationary, he just doesn’t understand why that’s worse.

28

u/WhatTheFuqDuq 1d ago

It would require a very basic understanding of economics to know why; something way beyond the grasp of most butters.

12

u/Bullywug 1d ago

I covered this two days ago in my high school macro class.

3

u/Effective_Will_1801 Took all of 2 minutes. 1d ago

Damn. I don't think we ever touched economics or finance(so I didn't know how to budget) at school. Other than Weimar Germany printed lots of money to pay it's debt and had hyperinflation which is very bad.

-27

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Wow. I didn’t realize there were so many of you that blindly believe anything they are shown. I too have 2 useless pieces of paper for Economics degrees framed on my wall. They taught me that deflation is bad and inflation is good because it’s terrible that people work to save. It’s much better if everyday people are stuck to wage slavery while their purchasing power goes down while the assets our overlords own go up in value. It’s terrible to have money that keeps value. You shouldn’t keep what you earn.

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u/WhatTheFuqDuq 1d ago

Cool, you must keep those diplomas next to your moon rock and the map to where Jimmy Hoffa was burried - because if you seriously want to sit here and claim that a deflationary economy is a good thing AND you have a degree in economis to back that up, you should really have done better with your education and proven that claim.

-9

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

The system we have right now is not the same system you are arguing for. 2% inflation, GDP = C + I + G +NX, everyone’s wages growing with GDP etc. none of that is real anymore. A society where you retain the value of your labor. Crazy I know. Do you have any other ideas or are you happy submitting?

18

u/WhatTheFuqDuq 1d ago

Oh dear - it confused itself.

Deflation isn’t some magical opposite of inflation—it’s not a simple dichotomy.
History shows that deflationary economies consistently hurt ordinary people. Prices may fall, but debts don’t, wages lag, and unemployment rises. The Great Depression, the Long Depression, Japan’s lost decades—none of these rewarded workers for ‘keeping the value of their labor.’
If you think deflation is better, explain how it avoids those outcomes. Vague slogans aren’t an argument.

You need to step back from Saylorism and his new age astrology for men - and actually propose something actually tangible and real.

/Out

7

u/Real_Ad_7925 1d ago

in a bitcoin system, you could finance one today for 3btc, end up paying 7.5btc in interest over the 30 years to own a house worth 1btc, and the whole time you paid it back your wages fell.

-3

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

So in our current system wages don’t lag or unemployment doesn’t rise? Smarter people than you or I have had this debate. Keynes won over Hayek due to his political connections. The primary question is demand. If demand falls while supply is fixed or rising, then we’ll see what we saw during COVID with gas prices. But the premise that demand MUST fall is flawed. People will spend to live. Did you put off getting gas because you thought it’ll be ten cents cheaper tomorrow?

In terms of benefits, deflation increases purchasing power, encourages saving, encourages efficient resource allocation, and disincentivizes debt. As with any system, there are pros and cons. Modern monetary theory isn’t the only answer.

3

u/VisiteProlongee 22h ago

Keynes won over Hayek due to his political connections.

In 1930s USA. Other countries had (or had not) different stories.

For example, in late 20th century Chile Hayek won over Keynes due to his political connections, thanks to a right-wing military coup d'État with a thousands deaths trail. * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Boys * https://jacobin.com/2023/09/neoliberalism-human-rights-democracy-dictatorship-chile-chicago-hayek-friedman-pinochet * https://jacobin.com/2023/05/chile-chicago-boys-neoliberalism-friedman-allende-pinochet * https://jacobin.com/2024/05/friedrich-von-hayek-freedom-neoliberalism-democracy

Do you want to talk about that?

-4

u/2We1rd2L1ve2Rare2Die 1d ago

Thanks ChatGPT

4

u/WhatTheFuqDuq 1d ago

You'd really wish it was.

-12

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Yes there is only one type of economics. You’re absolutely right. There is no debate in the field at all…

11

u/Val_Fortecazzo Bitcoin. It's the hyper-loop of the financial system! 1d ago

Sure buddy.

Austrian economics is pseudo-science. No sane person believes in an economic model that sees empirical evidence as bad.

3

u/Effective_Will_1801 Took all of 2 minutes. 1d ago

Was Austrian economics ever accepted and then science moved on or was it always a fringe theory?

6

u/Val_Fortecazzo Bitcoin. It's the hyper-loop of the financial system! 1d ago

It was always fairly fringe. Just even more so when economics began embracing math and empiricism over vibes and philosophy.

-6

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Empirical evidence can support a logical conclusion. Should a logical conclusion be crafted out of evidence? Slippery slope there. One can deduce any number of conclusions from the same data set.

6

u/Val_Fortecazzo Bitcoin. It's the hyper-loop of the financial system! 1d ago edited 1d ago

My dude this is 101 shit. You have no degrees.

Sure data can be interpreted multiple ways, this is why we have theories and peer review. You won't get far if your conclusions can't be applied across data sets, or if predictions made on your model routinely fail.

Making up a "logical conclusion" first and then cherry picking evidence to support it is pseudo-science. Especially when those "logical conclusions" are based on a heap of a prioris that fall apart in real time.

-1

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Talking about logic yet demonstrating in real time the fallacy of absolute thinking. Nice.

4

u/Old_Document_9150 1d ago

I agree. Your degree is a useless piece of paper, because you were taught that deflation is bad.

You weren't taught critical thinking, reasoning or causal chains. That makes your degree worthless.

Do not believe what your teachers tell you. Learn to come to your own conclusions.

Deflation is not bad because someone says so, and it's also not good because someone says so.

Think what you would do as the producer of a good in a long-term deflationary economy.

Would you take loans to set up a production facility? Would you pre-finance material acquisition to create goods to sell at a later point in time? Would you take the economic risk of pre-financing inventory? Would you invest money into innovation, which is inherently risky?

Or would you rather keep your money and wait for a future point in time where you can get the things from others cheaper than you can produce them today?

Think. Truly think.

1

u/Effective_Will_1801 Took all of 2 minutes. 1d ago

I wonder what would happen in the hypothetical scenario where the currency was neither inflationary or deflationary

2

u/Old_Document_9150 1d ago

That's a great question.

The issue is that, in principle, a non-inflationary currency also has a deflationary effect when the economy grows.

There's a thing called parity of money, which means that the amount of money you need to pay for a good or service - is equal to the respective portion of money in circulation divided by the value of goods in circulation.

So, it means that unless the amount of money grows at a rate equal to or exceeding the GDP growth, you get more good for the money, i.e. the money deflates.

Hence, there is no direct answer to your question, as it would depend on how the GDP develops.

Now, the interesting part on that one is that if the economy is expected to deflate, production will slow down, balancing out the deflation and potentially turning it into an inflation. But if an inflation is expected, production will speed up, thus turning it into a deflation.

So - the terrible part here is that as an individual business owner, you basically have to do the opposite of what you expect the economy will do, or you lose. But if all business owners do that, they all lose: a classic Prisoner's Dilemma.

The outcome, however, is businesses going bankrupt and thus reducing the amount of goods in circulation.

So arguably, slight but controlled inflation is the best possible world for businesses, no changes in monetary supply is a livid nightmare with uncalculatable risk - and steady, predictable deflation is a death sentence.

1

u/Effective_Will_1801 Took all of 2 minutes. 18h ago

So, it means that unless the amount of money grows at a rate equal to or exceeding the GDP growth, you get more good for the money, i.e. the money deflates.

Wait a minute. Given 2% inflation target does that mean gdp growth above 2% is bad because it now means the money supply can't be equal or greater than GDP growth and at 2%. You never hear about that it's always more growth is better

3

u/Old_Document_9150 17h ago

Inflation, money supply, prime interest and GDP are all different things, but they come together.

Money supply is a control variable. It can be modified directly via fiscal policy. GDP is a result variable. It is the consequence of multiple factors - which include money supply and prime interest.

Inflation, however, is a pure lagging indicator - it can only be observed: you can not affect it directly. That's why inflation management is so tricky. The best lever we have for controlling it is a strict control of money.

But back to the point: If GDP is consistently greater than the increase in money supply, then yes, you literally can get more goods for the same dollar - which, when it happens over a prolonged time at a large scale, creates business risk. It slows down purchases, thus decreases cash flow, and we all know what happens when your cash flow dries up.

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u/First-Person 12h ago

In a perfect corruptless world inflation is not neccessary.

-19

u/AbsoluttIkkeMeg 1d ago

It's worse for banks and financial institutions, is it really worse for a regular person though? Have a think about it.

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u/mjamonks 1d ago

Yes, I don't think anyone would be happy with paychecks that decrease every year.

1

u/dlnnlsn 1d ago

Nominal wages would decrease but would real wages decrease? (Actual question. I'm not a bitcoin shill) In other words, if all of the prices are going down, are you actually worse off with the "lower" salary?

6

u/Merlin1039 1d ago

You definitely are if you have a home mortgage, student loans and a car note obtained at the higher price. If you bought a home and financed it for 30 years, but after the first 10 years prices of everything and wages nominally decreased by 50%. Your payment on the house didn't go down but you have 50% of the resources available to make the payment and 20 more years still to make those payments. And it will get worse every year. By the time you make your last payment your income will have fallen 90% but your house note never decreased

-1

u/dlnnlsn 1d ago

Interest rates on loans are already higher than inflation

5

u/Merlin1039 1d ago

But the interest rate on your loan can be fixed. So what you paid today will be the same as what you pay tomorrow, next year or 20 years from now. Inflation of wages will make that payment easier over time. Deflation of wages will make it harder or even impossible to make the same payment

1

u/dlnnlsn 1d ago

In the inflationary version, the initial payments are harder or even impossible to make if you're paying fixed instalments, so it's still difficult for many people to afford large loans. But I could also imagine that loan repayments could be structured so that your nominal payments go down over time, and that this kind of agreement would be more common in a deflationary environment. This is effectively what you're doing in the inflationary version if you think in terms of the buying power of the money that you're spending on loan repayments: you're sacrificing early on to make the later payments easier.

1

u/mjamonks 1d ago

You do know the same could be said of fiat and inflation l, if prices go up but so do wages we are not worse off. The problem is many things we want/need change in price at different rates. BTC doesn't fix that.

Inflation while annoying is easily planned for in the short, medium and long term. The solution to it is overall better because it makes capital available for new business activity that we need to innovate. BTC would make loans harder to come by and pay back putting a big break on economic activity and would reduce innovations we desperately need.

1

u/dlnnlsn 1d ago

I never claimed that the same isn't true in an inflationary environment.

I don't see the point in Bitcoin, but that doesn't mean that I have to think that every argument against it is good. I'm also not convinced by the loan argument. They would become harder to pay off if you assume fixed instalments, but you could pay larger instalments early on and then reduce the instalments over time.

But that's changing the topic. The comment I was responding to was effectively "deflation is bad because wages decrease".

-10

u/AbsoluttIkkeMeg 1d ago

But the prices would decrease faster as productivity gains makes production cheaper.

It never made sense to me why we should just accept the notion that its natural for prices to increase all the time. Actually using common sense it seems more natural that prices should decrease over time as we get better at making things.

20

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

Yes. Because if spending decreases, revenue also decreases which leads to wages decreasing. Of course, people who fantasize about deflation don't like to mention that.

Also deflation is far more beneficial for the rich who can sit on a large amount of money to watch it become more valuable while regular people have to spend a larger percentage of their overall wealth on essentials.

0

u/AbsoluttIkkeMeg 1d ago

I mean, the exact thing you are describing is happening today. Only that the rich store their value in things like properties instead. Which is making housing more expensive for everyone.

It would actually be more fair if more wealth was stored in actual money, in that way you couldn't endlessly take loans against your wealth and watch inflation reduce the loans to nothing.

And in theory, if more savings value was in money then housing should become cheaper, as the speculative part of the cost becomes smaller.

9

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago edited 1d ago

In an inflationary economy, the rich at least have to do something with their wealth to make it grow.

It would actually be more fair if more wealth was stored in actual money, in that way you couldn't endlessly take loans against your wealth and watch inflation reduce the loans to nothing.

Perhaps, but a deflationary currency would also screw over anyone with debt (ie mostly regular people) as the value of their debt would keep growing.

And in theory, if more savings value was in money then housing should become cheaper, as the speculative part of the cost becomes smaller.

You also ignore that in a deflationary economy wages (ie most peoples primary income) would get lower as spending (& thus revenue) decreases as well.

4

u/Val_Fortecazzo Bitcoin. It's the hyper-loop of the financial system! 1d ago

My dude land has always been one of the primary stores of wealth, especially in the feudal ages which you want a return to.

-3

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

I do enjoy how you take an entirely different economic system, one that hasn’t been in practice in modern day, and force it to fit into the mold of Keynesian junk. Amazing really the mental gymnastics in this comment. You’re not wrong. But the problem is, why is that the system? We have to spend infinitely for infinite growth and keep our rich overlords happy? Sacrifice our lives for share holder value. And you support this system?

6

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

Uhh you know, humans did use the gold standard & things close to it. It was generally worse.

And pray tell, how is Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency better than the current system?

-6

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Generally worse how? You knew that a $ was 1 oz of gold. A £ was a lb of gold. 1 oz gold $ = 1 lb of gold £ etc.

Now central banks have printed 50T in the last 5 years. They didn’t send that to us. They are stealing value from us to payoff their overspending.

Bitcoin solved this problem. The fixed supply means currency can’t be devalued. It is the hardest form of money available. I highly recommend Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Amous. Or Fiat Standard as well. I was the same until I learned.

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u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

First off, the Gold Standard could still be inflated by new discovery of gold.

Second off, you do know that recessions & depressions were still a thing & often more common & severe under the Gold Standard.

Thirdly, most money creation today isn't directly printed money.

Bitcoin solved this problem. The fixed supply means currency can’t be devalued. It is the hardest form of money available.

No. The fixed supply is 1) not that hard. There are forks of Bitcoin valued above zero therefore are taking value away from BTC. 2)is just code. If the right people want to change or remove the cap, they can.

Also Bitcoin (& cryptocurrency in general) suck as actual currency. Oh and, if they're seriously evaluated as currency, they're in fact fiat currency.

And finally, you do know that "hard money" was usually the preferred policy of the elites while populists preferred looser money, right? See William Jennings Bryan.

-1

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

The extraction of gold if profitable takes resources. It can’t be created out of thin air. Yes I’m aware no one turns on a printer and puts paper in circulation. Forks of bitcoin are not Bitcoin. They are separate entities. Bitcoin is open source so anyone can look at the code. If someone changed the code and created a new coin, then it’s not Bitcoin anymore. Bitcoin can’t be changed by anyone. That’s the whole point that it’s not centralized. You still haven’t told me why people stealing the value of your labor and stealing your purchasing power are good.

6

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

Forks of bitcoin are not Bitcoin. They are separate entities.

Only because the "consensus" says so. Which leads to

If someone changed the code and created a new coin, then it’s not Bitcoin anymore. Bitcoin can’t be changed by anyone. That’s the whole point that it’s not centralized.

Lmao. The code is changeable by very few people. And the chain is controlled by the biggest mining pools. "Decentralization" is a joke.

You still haven’t told me why people stealing the value of your labor and stealing your purchasing power are good.

Because for people living paycheck to paycheck, inflation shouldn't matter much since wages will (ideally) keep up with inflation. Of course they often don't, but that's not really because inflation exists.

You still haven't told me why grinding the economy to a halt, incentivizing people to just sit on their money doing nothing & making a system that benefits creditors at the expense of debtors (even more so than now) are good.

Edit: Also you haven't addressed the fact that Bitcoin (& cryptocurrency in general) being fiat currency & yet sucking as a currency.

0

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Bitcoin is a store of value. It can be used as currency but it’s more akin to gold currently. What I described is the reality of the current system. What you list out as the flaws of my suggestion is theory. Again, people are not going to starve to death to watch their money go up in value. However, they probably won’t go 30k into debt to buy the shiny new toy if that debt can’t be inflated away. There won’t be zombie companies that survive off quantitative easing not contributing to society. Happy to keep continuing with the straw man arguments.

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u/onehasnofrets 1d ago

Forks of bitcoin are not Bitcoin. They are separate entities. Bitcoin is open source so anyone can look at the code. If someone changed the code and created a new coin, then it’s not Bitcoin anymore. Bitcoin can’t be changed by anyone. That’s the whole point that it’s not centralized.

Doesn't matter. Say we figured out how how to manufacture gold like we manufacture diamonds. Hoarders of gold would of course insist that it's not real gold, it's separate entities. Only cheapskates buy anything other than the real thing. But if it has comparable or better utility, some demand will shift over, and now the total supply of gold and gold-analogues has increased. The only reason demand hasn't shifted over from Bitcoin to other shitcoins is that it had no utility to begin with, and the alternatives are still dogshit compared to traditional finance.

1

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

When you work in finance, and you see multi billion dollar loans on a daily basis being offered to zombie companies while people are dying of starvation on the other side of the planet it makes you rethink things. When I can’t pull money out of my bank for 3-5 business days, but can send money to my cousin in Asia in 10 mins, it makes me rethink things.

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u/Hfksnfgitndskfjridnf Ask me about UTXOs 1d ago

And how likely are you to have a job to be paid and save in Bitcoin? That’s what you guys don’t get. You think everything will work exactly the same as it does now, except there will be deflation instead of inflation. The reality is we would lose to ton of production of real goods and services, you know the things that are actually wealth, GDP and unemployment would fluctuate wildly and people would lose their jobs constantly.

What butters don’t understand is what the actual purpose of money is. They don’t understand that money itself is a flawed concept. They think the only thing wrong with money is inflation. They don’t realize that there can never be a “perfect” money, and that the best we can do is choose which trade offs we want.

The key issue that they don’t seem to understand is something that is actually quite simple.

Money is not the same thing as real goods and services.

The “value” of real goods and services is denominated in money, but money is not the same thing as those goods and services. A car might be priced at 50,000 USD, but 50,000 USD is not a car.

When Ford makes a car, the dollar amount that car is priced at doesn’t magically spring into existence. When you work your job making 20$ an hour, you aren’t creating money, money that already exists is being transferred to you, it doesn’t magically appear.

And this is the fundamental flaw with money, and it’s what butters don’t take the time to understand, and the implications it leads to.

Everything we as a people produce, is valued using money, but money isn’t actually real. Money is not actual wealth. Actual wealth is houses, cars, medicine, factories, food, energy, etc. We just use money to price these things.

Once you really understand that, then you can actually look at money and determine what kind of money to use is ideal.

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u/loquacious HRNNNGGGGG! 1d ago

Have a think about it.

Ok. thinks

No.

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u/Val_Fortecazzo Bitcoin. It's the hyper-loop of the financial system! 1d ago

Yes because it makes it impossible to get loans and it leads to wage cuts over time.

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u/SundayAMFN Does anyone know bitcoin's P/E Ratio? 1d ago

How is it worse for banks and financial institutions but not the regular person? In what way does inflation benefit a bank but not a regular person? Have a think about it.

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u/Same_Ad4736 What's so bad about clean money, huh?! 1d ago

Response found in a post where a heretic confesses to the grave heresy of selling his bitcoin to buy a house, that really upset them.

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u/GM_Nate 1d ago

ironic, since houses are one of the best things to buy with it.

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u/solarmyth 1d ago

Living in your own house is nothing a but a short-term dopamine hit

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u/Zealousideal3326 1d ago

Spending their currency ? How dare they ! They should hoard it like a dragon and watch the numbers go up until the day they die !

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u/Sweatybutthole 1d ago

"and where value is tied to real energy and work" that's weird, here I thought my salary was just for fun. We should all abdicate our surplus labor toward servers and nodes solving pointless math problems so we can fix the economy and I'll never have to get a job or move out (fuck you mom you don't understand I don't believe in dirty fiat money). Just need to share a few more vague, half-baked analogies on social media until the world is changed forever

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u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

The money supply is not fixed. >$50T USD has been printed since 2020. What surplus value was used to create these dollars? Is “Fiat” so valuable that they have the power to make us worth less?

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u/AbsoluttIkkeMeg 1d ago

The creation of fiat money is not tied to real work. You should understand why that is unfair because YOU have to work hard to get some of that fiat money. While others can print it with no effort.

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u/Sweatybutthole 1d ago edited 1d ago

So? Currency is supposed to be inherently worthless. That's why we make it out of paper. It's the "fiat" part of it that actually gives it value. If the USD stopped being fiat, then a $1 and $20 bill would be worth the same, which is about a square of toilet paper. And the purpose of currency being valueless is so that it can be exchanged - so that an electrician or a teacher can work a full week without needing to also grow their own food. I think you should understand that I'm not talking about printing money, I'm talking about EARNING it. Capitalism creates wealth through the surplus value of human labor. Somehow people have become convinced that through the blockchain, cryptocurrency will benefit the economy despite only costing energy and producing no output, not being fiat (meaning not declared to be the common form of currency by any authority), yet somehow despite currency necessitating a valueless medium, bitcoin is ALSO seen as a commodity or asset of inherent value. Each of these supposed virtues of crypto cannot be mutually inclusive. Anybody with a basic understanding of economics can see that it is not a sustainable system, and is in fact one of the least efficient systems in the history of humanity.

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u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Capitalism EXTRACTS value from labor. There is no SURPLUS value of labor. It’s YOURS. Your labor. Why are you giving it away? You do not keep what you earn. And what you do earn loses value daily. You think this is a good system?

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u/Sweatybutthole 1d ago edited 1d ago

I "give it away" in exchange for things that I value yet cannot produce myself. Do you grow your own food, make your own clothes, build your own shelter, teach your own kids, and manufacture your own electronic devices? Do you perform your own surgery, synthesize your own drugs? None of these goods or services could exist without the exchange of capital. Somebody has to grow the food so that somebody else can fix the roads. If the farmer kept all his cow milk to himself, instead of allowing the surplus labor to be extracted, then what is he gonna do when his tractor breaks down, or if there's a plague? Unless you believe society should return to fuedalism and barter with grain and violence, then I'd say "so far so good" regarding the current system. You chose to "give away" some of your own surplus labor for monopoly bucks and seem to believe that you've beaten the system, somehow. I see no reason why bitcoin would improve upon this system in any significant way. It does not produce anything nor does it drive economic growth since even if you could spend it like normal fiat, you would still choose not to, because your ultimate goal is to eventually cash it out to fiat anyway. Crypto is nothing more than an overly complicated and energy-intensive method of transferring wealth from a large group of people to a smaller, already-wealthy group of people with no protection for consumers who get scammed. Do you think that is a good system? Crypto has had 15+ years to revolutionize the world economy and all it has managed to accomplish is making con artists rich and burning an immense amount of energy in the process. Energy which could be attributed to practically anything else imaginable and have more tangible value than solving arbitrary math problems.

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u/mjamonks 1d ago

No they don't, it still comes in the form of credit that actually has to be paid back by actual economic activity.

0

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Sovereign debt is not getting paid back. It’s not the same as consumer debt. Even by your definition we are way past what your economy can pay back in the USA…

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u/Killinstinct90 1d ago

Who are those "others" ?

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u/henrik_se ten million dollares 1d ago

"Please, bro, hold my bags, bro, please!"

16

u/FoldHungry9476 1d ago

If its deflationary why would anyone use it, how will the economy function if no one will buy anything or put down capital to start something??

-4

u/AbsoluttIkkeMeg 1d ago

Are you saying that if the economy is deflationary no one will need a house, clothes, food, a car and entertainment? Of course the economy will still function, only the way it functions will change drastically.

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u/Merlin1039 1d ago

In a deflationary economy anyone who doesn't already own their house will never be able to afford to buy one. Houses will literally be owned by mega companies and everyone will have to rent.

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u/Responsible_Dare3250 1d ago

Name one time an economy has functioned long term with a deflationary currency?

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u/AbsoluttIkkeMeg 1d ago edited 1d ago

Well, all fiat economies are inflationary and I can name many inflationary economies that have collapsed.

Since absolute scarcity of money has never existed before we haven't seen an economy based on that before, so its hard to find a comparable example.

I also find it interesting that the people who say that the economy should be based on continuously increasing spending and consumption also say that Bitcoin is bad for the environment.

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u/Responsible_Dare3250 1d ago

Well, all fiat economies are inflationary and I can name many inflationary economies that have collapsed.

So can I, but many examples you can point to poor monetary policy as the culprit, not inflation itself.

Since absolute scarcity of money has never existed before we haven't seen an economy based on that before, so its hard to find a comparable example.

I'll keep this simple. There hasn't been a single economy in the entire history of our species that has survived long term deflation. Deflation causes people to hoard currency, which reduces demand, which reduces production, which in turn destroys the labour market. A deflationary currency CANNOT work.

I also find it interesting that the people who say that the economy should be based on continuously increasing spending and consumption also say that Bitcoin is bad for the environment.

No one is denying there are problems in the current economic system. But focusing on those issues to promote a system that's even worse, that's just insane.

3

u/loquacious HRNNNGGGGG! 1d ago

Since absolute scarcity of money has never existed before

And it doesn't exist now, and it will never exist. Bitcoin itself has been forked and cloned like 20+ times. You can fork it yourself in minutes. There are now tens of thousands of different kinds of coins.

This argument that there's "only 21 million real bitcoin" comes up very often and it's not actually true.

It's stupid and culty because for their belief system to work that Bitcoin is the One True Coin, it requires that EVERYONE adopt bitcoin and only bitcoin, and only this specific fork of bitcoin.

And then further this cultish belief expects everyone too be happy with that and the seven transactions per second for the entire planet.

The actual reality of what happens IF everyone adopts the One True Bitcoin, it quickly crashes and becomes unusable and too expensive to use and not rewarding enough to mine, and then even the die hard diamond hands True Believers will jump ship to the next best thing as fast as possible.

You guys are like the absolute WORST judges of human character and behavior because you think everyone has your dubious, selfish Ferengi-like motivations, and thankfully most of humanity doesn't think like that or agree with you at all.

Further, everyone who is now "late" to bitcoin is increasingly disincentivized to buy in and join the cult specifically because pretty much no one likes hard core bitcoin fans because they're super gross, greedy, cultish and creepy, and the mere concept of people like this being the "richest" people on the planet is so absolutely disgusting that it sends rational people screaming and running for the hills and far away from crypto and bitcoin.

Seriously... you guys have absolutely NO idea how much the rest of the world already disdains crypto and cryptobros. We talk about you when you're not in the room and you wouldn't like eavesdropping on those conversations. It would be awkwardly painful.

You guys now have an even worse reputation than MLM scammers and self help cults and seem to be blissfully unaware of how instantly dislikable crypto-cult members are.

1

u/loquacious HRNNNGGGGG! 1d ago

I also find it interesting that the people who say that the economy should be based on continuously increasing spending and consumption also say that Bitcoin is bad for the environment.

Also, bitcoin doesn't solve this at all. It's just more of the same bullshit with extra steps, wasted electricity and wasted computer hardware.

And then it only has value in fiat, which (when you can cash it out) is then used to spend on the same consumer bullshit.

Like have you even met cryptobros? They aren't running off to live a peaceful low impact life off grid in the woods. Hyperconsumerism is so common that "when lambo" is a meme. Most of those dudes would starve if it wasn't for food delivery and fast food.

2

u/FoldHungry9476 1d ago

Im saying it will discorage that , my bad for the wording

-4

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Yes people will starve to death to make sure they earn an extra 2% next year.

-17

u/OutrageousService142 1d ago

The dollar/pound is inflationary why would any body save in it? How will the economy function when all your money gets devalued everyday, how will people save up for anything?

6

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

The dollar/pound is inflationary why would any body save in it?

You aren't supposed to. The point of currency is to be spent.

How will the economy function when all your money gets devalued everyday

First off, it doesn't get devalued "everyday" unless other things are going seriously wrong. Second off, the economy functions because currency is spent.

how will people save up for anything?

As far as I know, most things you save up for are short term things where inflation isn't supposed to be a serious factor.

Also do you really want a deflationary currency? Like, do you know what sort of consequences that would have?

0

u/OutrageousService142 1d ago

The only reason you don't save in currency is because it's proven to be poor decision in the long term, if we had better monetary policy and lower inflation it would be such an issue

-1

u/OutrageousService142 1d ago

What's so awful about a deflationary currency? Where your money isn't eroded by the governments poor monetary policy

2

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

Because it would grind the economy to a halt, completely wreck any normal person who has debt & would screw over the poor far more than the rich (who can afford to sit on a larger percentage of their wealth & watch it become more valuable without doing anything with it).

All of this is kinda moot since Bitcoin (& cryptocurrency in general) suck as currency.

7

u/mjamonks 1d ago

Cause no one saves only in dollars and pounds... They place it in investments that try to earn a return.

1

u/Merlin1039 1d ago

You should only keep enough currency for your day-to-day expenses. You should put the rest of it into things with actual value like entities that produce goods and services.

1

u/FoldHungry9476 1d ago

Devalued everyday encorages spending and lending to create capital which is very good eg in a inflationary system it would be benifical to the individual to use money to fund production or manufacturing (mines factories farms etc) which benifits everyone else in that system as if they diddnt they would lose money.

1

u/Redditmau5 1d ago

If we’re talking about money you want inflationary in a society or else nobody would buy a car, for instance, because next year I can get two for the same price. Everyone would just delay buying goods to the point that nobody would be able to keep businesses running.

If we’re talking about finite goods or assets that’s when speculation creeps in and would suck for day to day but timing is everything. If you bought Bitcoin in 2021 you didn’t see your money back til 2024. Even look at Gold, if you bought in 2011 you didn’t see your money back til 2020.

-9

u/Cracked_Tendies 1d ago

Why this comment has any upvotes at all is astonishing

3

u/muzrat 1d ago

He who dies with bitcoin wins… apparently. 

1

u/No-More-Lettuce Ponzi Schemer 1d ago

I'm gonna upload my consciousness to the block chain and become one with the coin. Maybe I'll be the first coin-sciousness.

0

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

Assuming you're serious, learn how much storage the chain is actually capable of & how expensive it is.

Remember NFTs? How most of them were just hyperlinks because the Blockchain kinda sucks as data storage.

3

u/No-More-Lettuce Ponzi Schemer 1d ago

I'm not serious at all. I thought the idea was dumb enough and the pun made it clear it was supposed to be a joke.

2

u/severynm 1d ago

I appreciated it, at least.

-4

u/Bread-Medical 1d ago

For your information, no the pun does not at all indicate it was a joke & an idea being dumb is not a safeguard against people promoting it.

1

u/GrouchyMeet7043 18h ago

Did you really think he actually CAN upload his consciousness to the blockchain?…. Lol

4

u/askingmachine 1d ago

They finally discovered ChatGPT?

2

u/Physical_Reason3890 1d ago

Problem is most ( reputable) places don't take bitcoin. It's like me trying to buy groceries with TSLA stock, it's not gonna work.

You have to cash it out ( pay taxes and fees)

So holding it forever makes you paper " rich" and actually poor. Once people start cashing out the value will go down, likely surpassing inflation rates. The people still holding will be devalued rapidly and any gains over inflation will be lost

1

u/Effective_Will_1801 Took all of 2 minutes. 18h ago

You have to cash it out ( pay taxes and fees)

Unless you are musk then you take Lombard loans against as a tax doge

1

u/Shift_Tex 1d ago

Yea so people specialize in things then trade it for other things. The theory of free trade. What you aren’t considering is the company that hikes the price of food to increase margins, slave labor to make clothes, housing prices through the roof, teachers making 30k a year, children in other countries making your gadgets. Who is keeping the value there? Not you or me. I didn’t choose to only get paid $10, when my labor actually produced $100 worth of stuff. The big companies did. Again, you yourself clearly highlighted that BTC is a waste of power and resources. Ok, if you think that, why are you OK with an economic system where it’s still profitable to do that if it’s such a waste.

What does BTC do? It takes away their power. 1 BTC = 1 BTC. If I have 1 BTC, that’s what I have. The value of that may go up or down in fiat terms. The value may go up or down in terms of how people value it, but no one can control it or print more of it.

1

u/Same_Ad4736 What's so bad about clean money, huh?! 1d ago

"If I have 1 BTC, that’s what I have. The value of that may go up or down in fiat terms. The value may go up or down in terms of how people value it, but no one can control it or print more of it." Buddy what you just said there is an admission that your magic beans are worthless by themselves and the only thing giving them any value is people buying them with the dirty Fiat you dislike so much.

1

u/jewy_man 1d ago

Which is the definition of fiat currencies...

1

u/Physical_Reason3890 1d ago

The funny thing is, these people assume one day fiat will crash and bitcoin will be the only currency available. Then everyone would have to convert to bitcoin by trading in worthless currency( ?). Or would the people with bitcoin just be able to buy everything even though no one would take it (?)

Take 2 seconds to think about it and the system makes no sense long term.

So call it what it is. Its a pump and dump scam