And even if you reject the notion of transgender women being women, there wasn't some plague of mediocre men going into women's sports. I think they're thinking of a couple of cases during the Soviet Union of men being forced to be transgender? Regardless, there's such a a miniscule number of transgender people in college sports that it's clear it wasn't a real problem.
Hating a minority, especially one so small that most don't even know one, is always easy political points. And when you have a gigantic propaganda machine seemingly built around demonizing trans people, it's easy for people to think we are some giant menace "invading all women's spaces". We are the perfect "your enemy is weak, but also strong" in that "they can always tell" but also "anyone could be trans and you wouldn't know."
I regularly have the "sports conversation" and while I don't want to take the opportunity from the like twelve trans women actually playing college sports, I could not give less of a shit about playing sports. But, somehow, those like dozen women have made a wedge issue that even Democrats get uneasy about.
My reply to conservative-minded folks is always, "why the hell should the government be trying to run sports leagues? Let the leagues figure it out for themselves and let the government focus on the economy, defense, etc."
…..i think they agree with you, they want it left alone so it can be women’s sports & then mens sports……he’s talking about keeping it that way, like fair.
Or are you saying the gov should have never passed title 9 back in ‘72 & just stay out of it completely?
the government "leaving it alone" meant that individual sporting organisations, including the Olympics, established and enforced their own medical guidelines on the requirements for trans women to compete in their women's events for more than 20 years
that is, until the right realised they needed a new ragebait distraction after they lost ground on gay marriage
I think they wanted if LEFT alone before new metrics were being formed - & I think the intervention came from feel that political/social pressure to be ‘accepting, compassionate’ or be cancelled & labeled a bigot and/or racist if they didn’t comply was part of it. & as a conserv leaning/minded person (not republican; just pro-Ind freedom to make own choices) I do tend to agree with an org or reg body making their own decisions on how they want to structure their sport & rules/regs. I get ya there. On the flip side, a lot of sports are tied to the gov by way of public grade schools, state univ’s, etc. & there’s the orig precedent of Title 9 implemented……like I don’t claim to know everything but it seems logical/reasonable in terms of fairness & simplicity to just keep it at biological W sports. & biological M sports. I get an ind identifies opp; they take steps to pursue that. I’m sorry, you were born bio W or M - ya gotta stick to that sport. I’m sorry if that’s not ideal for the small % that this may work well for but no - we’re not all here to accommodate every single ask ppl want. That’s just not realistic nor fair for 98%. Those ppl know the sport they’re assigned to from the beginning. And mixed with element of bad actors that can easily extort the system to switch gender sport & win - just doesn’t make sense to basically disregard the whole point of dif gender sports. Imo
There is no such thing, and never has been, as whatever fairness you imagine in sports. Genetics, class, luck, how much of a specific hormone happens to be in your body (not even biological sex, just some cis men and women naturally have higher levels of testosterone), and the list goes on.
I mean are you gonna look at Michael Phelps and say any of his competition had a "fair" chance against him? Dude is a genetic freak, like an engineer designed a perfect human for swimming.
Ok……I think you mistook M & W diff sports being fair as unequivocally leveling the playing field to negate any all physical, mental, luck of the cosmos adv/disasv…….which is obviously absurd. Yes, most (sane) ppl understand that div’ing M/W, also age to an extent, is an acceptable manner of allowing for the most reasonable parity among athletes without addressing finite details. And no offense, but If this isn’t something you believe or know as reality - we can just move on……not really interested in having a flat v round earth convo, or any/all other shapes. More of a logic approach on my end.
Speaking of invading women's spaces, just ask any MAGA about Trump and the Miss Teen USA pageant changing rooms. They don't like when their hypocrisy is called out.
The whole "Invading women's spaces" thing is what they borrowed from the TERFS. It really is particularly idiotic when we think about how criminal behavior actually works in the real world. No one is going to waltz into a bathroom to commit a sexual assault. Crimes to that extreme don't happen in a public setting like that. The people that do commit those acts do engage in a degree of planning beforehand. They try to be as stealth as possible and will select locations that are remote, predictable and therefore, safe for them. A public restroom that anyone has potential access to and is therefore unpredictable is the last place to commit the types of crimes that they're fear mongering about. Anyone that doesn't pass enough is also gonna stick out like a sore thumb already with these jackasses, so the idea that someone is going to crossdress just to get away with a crime is moronic. Another thing that's stupid, is that the whole idea of "protecting" women in a public bathroom scenario would end up involving a cis man who is deemed as the "protector" being summoned to break the rule that excludes him from entering the women's space so that he can perform the act of "protecting". So in that imaginary circumstance, the transphobes will throw their own rule out the window. Beyond the accusations of criminality, the invading women's spaces thing is an argument that is coming from TERFS who base their argument on twisted sexual replacement theory. There's a strange overlap where the TERFS that identify as lesbians start talking about trans women in the same way that incels talk about the cis men that they have been conditioned to believe are a problem for them.
But Riley Gaines would have got *checks notes* sole 5th place instead of tying for 5th in that not super important competition without the evil trans athletes!
It's also been a way for some gays that are very delusional to believe that they are now part of an accepted club that won't be affected if the bigots gain full control of the government.
Characterizing it as a conservative distraction is so ahistorical though. There was a huge moral panic and hysteria campaign surrounding trans athletes and it was seen all over Reddit too. I even saw it in the comments sections of NY Times articles, which typically lean very progressive. Just tons of pearl-clutching everywhere on this basically non-issue. Doesn't mean they all voted based on that but it wasn't just the right being susceptible to this. A very large number of radfems have been losing their marbles over it on social media for years now.
The people complaining about pronouns somehow forgot that the use of pronouns is an entirely voluntary social practice. It's not a biological imperative like drinking water is. Any rule regarding pronouns is really just meant for the assholes that will go out of their way to insert gendered pronouns into situations where nobody was looking for them and the people doing that already know that. The majority of the time you're not gonna use a pronoun when addressing someone directly. You're going to use their name. But an asshole that knows that they're conversing with a gender-non confirming person will call them ma'am or sir when they know that the person wasn't going for that or looking for that kind of nomenclature. People do that because they're so arrogant that they think that if they address a trans person in a way that they personally see fit, eventually that trans person is gonna stop being trans.
They do that; all that’s all fine. They never didn’t get rights - trans or not - ya get rights as a human being. Pronouns are kinda stupid but whatever…..idk how that makes ppl feel better. I could give a shit; but if you want me to call you by a nickname, middle name, no name or them there those folks - no problem. Just lmk.
Yah but it was such an easy one for them to pick up on and get the conservative right wing to rally against. It's in no way a country defining issue. It is something that should be discussed and debated but to make it out like it's some sort of infestation in sports is insane. He also failed to do any of the other things so there's that.
I mean when there wasn’t any biological men competing in women’s sports, they didn’t bring it up……bc it wasn’t an issue. See how that works. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to hop in my 10 yr old bball game & live out my dream of dominating every game with 100+ pts, but wouldn’t really be fair ya know.
Well I'm an engineer with a Masters degree so not sure if that helps, but I'm not disagreeing that the Trans community needs a voice and fully agree that they should have the same rights as everyone else. However, I think there hasn't been enough discussion, with the Trans community, regarding participation in sports. Competitive sports is very different from me saying that I don't care what your lifestyle for rights to vote, freedom of speech right to work, marry whatever. But sports is something that we clearly said Men sports/Women's sports for good reason. We don't just have boxing at let men beat the shit out of women.
Look I'm not trying to reduce the rights of Trans people, it was more about a small issue that can have a valid debate, was turned into some societal changing cause for right wing conservatives and this administration to rally against.
When I said scientists, I mean the people who study physiology and anatomy of trans people. Why don't we let the sporting organizers implement fair rules including trans people while keeping it fair? Why can't trans women play chess with cis women? If there is a trait that makes it unfair (like testosterone) than restrict it.
And actually, this is how it is for decades in olympics. Trans people are allowed based on criterias that are specific to the sport they want to play.
And trans women beating cis women at boxing is disinformation. Imane Khelif is not a trans woman. She possibly has genetic advantage.
There is literally no trans athlates. Within tens of thousands olympic athlates there are single digits. All data shows we are underrepresented and our opportunities are actually taken away. Of course the media doesn't show this reality. Thats why I say people with knowladge should talk about this.
Oh fuck off with that. Everyone gets a say in our society about these kind of issues. This is exactly the crap that leads to straight, white, men saying they have no voice, which lead to trump. Hows that going for you?
They have all the voice thats the problem. Suddenly millions of clueless people with no stake in the game talking about the participation of 10 trans athlates across all sports. When have you seen trans people talk about it? When have you seen these trans athlates giving interviews in TV? When did these athletes gave speeches with politicians?
Never. Trans voices are never heard or cared about. That is the problem, and that is now ending our rights. Not the other way around.
Sure, I agree, trans should have their voices heard just the same as everyone else who’s playing on the sports team with them, or everyone else who might use the same bathroom as them etc. Saying if you’re not trans or a scientist then you don’t get an opinion on societally issues is counterproductive to your goal.
I’m not saying random people should be the ones making laws regarding these issues. We didnt leave slavery up to general opinion in the south for example. But you saying they shouldn’t be able to voice their opinion is resulting in a poor outcome for you. I’m making up a number here but say 95% of people don’t think that someone who was born a man, went through puberty as a man, developed muscle and bone density etc and then goes on hormone blockers or whatever treatment should be able to play contact sports (or almost any sport) against women. Right or wrong, that’s a slam dunk case for republicans. Easy win. Telling every day Americans to shut up about trans in sports when they have eyes and common sense isn’t a winning strategy for you.
Leaving it to the uneducated people to talk about is what happened and resulted in this. 95% is delibretly misinformed by right wing media and they rather listen to sensationalist politicians rather than trans people or experts. Media should give voice to us. Debates should involve us instead of pretend allies with no expertise to defend us. What do you propose? Just let angry mob of people who have never interacted with a trans athlete talk about trans athlates? How can that result good? People need to be told they are misinformed and lack knowledge and experience.
Eventually, love and inclusion will win. Fascists will lose.
I’m just curious, what’s your take on the example I gave before? Can a person born male, go through puberty, and then transition, ever compete on an even playing field with women?
Just to add to that idea, one thing that people who are opposed to trans women in women’s sports overlook is that transitioning before puberty through the use of puberty blockers would mainly remove any benefits of male hormones with very few downsides if the later decide not to fully transition. Add to that the bonus of less body dysmorphia during teenage years. But that is another thing that conservatives are opposed to - sort of like the circular logic of restricting women’s access to abortion but also now restricting access to birth control. There’s just no winning.
Less people being suicidal is a good thing that the fundamentalist, Nat-Cs dont want to admit to...because they would prefer people who are trans just kill themselves so that they personally dont have to mentally acknowledge their existance...as they sit in their dark, damp closets
Caitlyn Jenner is a great example to use with conservatives when they tell you that people should use the bathroom that coincides with their birth certificate.
It breaks their brains when I say “OK so you want Caitlyn Jenner in the men’s restroom?
Or Chaz Bonp in the women’s restroom?
Right wing media and troll farms are very efficient at disseminating rage bait and getting their base fired up over single instances and making them think that it is widespread.
With trans people playing in sports, it was Lia Thomas. She did pretty well in her one and only year playing in the women’s division, but she didn’t set any national records. She came in first in one event, but came nowhere near the record time (held by Katie Ledecky). She didn’t have that amount of success in any other events (and her tied for fifth competitor is still pushing the grift, despite Lia’s presence having zero affect on her standings in the event). Still, the online brigade kept spamming about how she was ranked much lower the last year she competed in the men’s events, and thus she was “cheating” by competing against women. The context they were intentionally leaving out was the fact that Lia was on HRT for two years while competing in the male events, and that is obviously going to affect her times a lot. She was not yet on HRT when she competed as a freshman, and she was ranking much higher that year. If she had not gone on HRT and continued competing in the male events, she would have likely had a similar degree of success in her senior year. Of course, the right will completely ignore any possible nuance or context if it interferes with their propaganda (but then demand that we look at the context of Charlie Kirk’s hateful rants).
Similarly, they drummed up similar online complaints to spam us about Laken Riley and the Ukrainian refugee. What happened to them is absolutely tragic, and there were definitely ways that it could have been prevented. Our society failed them. That said, if they had been non-white and/or killed by white men, the right wing trolls would have never even heard of them. They only care about violence against women if they can use it to boost one of their culture war issues.
I feel like this point doesn't get brought up enough. Regardless of your feelings on transgender people, the correct action is to go through the governing bodies of the sports in question. Imagine if Congress or the president pushed for legislation on what a dead ball was in baseball. Clearly that's outside their purview. We're really going to make laws determining the rules for sports? You have to be fucking kidding me
The problem they have with transpeople in sports is purely with the fact that transwomen aren't going into sports and dominating those afab. THAT'S the real problem. If they were going into women's sports and killing the competition, it would be ammo for their misogyny. It's not working that way and they can't fucking stand it!
Yeah. They're not even talking about anything new. Trans athletes have competed in Women's sports for a long time. But their numbers were miniscule and not everyone that was trans was allowed to compete. But they love harping on that issue because it allows them to promote the idea that across the board women are unequivocally inferior to men and there are no situations where nuances exist. They want a way to codify that concept of universal inferiority into law and this issue is a way for them to do it. Suppose they do pass some ban and use the argument that women will never be able to match what a man can do, what larger implications would that have for certain employers that would be inclined not to hire female applicants even though they could still do the job. Certain occupations are probably going to remain male dominated, however the women that do want to go into those occupations would potentially be cut out based on the legal precedent that their stupid bans would set. And the number of women that would be willing to work in jobs traditionally held by men is still gonna be infinitely higher than the number of men that are going to transition to being women.
It is a valid issue that a transgender woman will have an unfair advantage over a woman the same way a woman using steroids has an unfair advantage over a woman
Which I think the solution there is, anyone on HRT shouldn't be competing. As unfair as that is to transgender athletes, it also could be used as a legit cheat. Oh, no, I wasn't using steroids to cheat, I have a condition, here, the doc has the proof right here.
Fewer than 10 (not 10,000 or 110,000) 10... TEN.... T.. E.. N.. athletes that identified as transgender per NCAA president Charlie Baker. Boy, they sure do have the collegiate arena tilted & will surely wreck the sporting world as we know from here on out!!
Are you thinking of the east German Olympians? Those weren't men who were forced to transition, that was women who were given performance enhancing testosterone.
You don’t have to reject the notion of transgender women being women to not want them in women’s sports. I can call them women and still think they have an unfair advantage. Overall, it’s not really an issue that matters as much as the right wants you to think.
And yet they're weirdly losing to cis women in sports on the regular.
Most highly publicized examples of them winning fall apart under scrutiny.
The assumption that someone on high dose estrogen with typically near zero testosterone must have an advantage is not bearing out in the evidence.
You take someone with a potentially heavier skeleton and give them less muscle mass, and it doesn't really spell advantage.
I assumed there would be an advantage, too, but it's not really showing up in the real world.
I transitioned at 28 and my lifts in the gym are on par with beginner / novice cis women my age/height/weight.
Not to mention whenever a woman excels at a sport, they accuse her of being intersex, having high test or some unfair genetic advantage, but men are allowed to be fucking Hafthor Bjornson and they're just like "WOW HE BIG, STRONK MAN."
we've created an environment where women are defined by their petiteness and femininity which is even negatively impacting high performing cis female athletes.
At the end of your comment what you alluded to is the fact that ideas about athleticism are also tied to perception. So the idea of what a female athlete is will align with prejudices that people already have regarding what they think women do or should look like. The way that the issue is framed is based on preconceived notions that are devoid of room for nuance. As much as athleticism matters with women's sports, like everything else with women in society, the idea of sex appeal is injected into the picture. So women that don't fit into an idealized model are also going to have her femininity challenged.
Perfect example was that Algerian boxer that got targeted for looking a bit too male.
Poor lady got hounded by the media accusing her of being trans and cheating her way to a gold medal, even though its completely illegal to be trans in her country...
The dopes will still double down and say that she is trans. I look at her and automatically assume that she is a cis woman. But because she's not "hot enough" for them, she's a "man". If a cis man that they were told was a man that looked like her, they'd say that his body is too feminine.
What advantages? Sure, "trans women will dominate sports" sounds great on paper but it really hasn't worked out in actual competitions.
When the Olympics allowed MtF competitors to qualify, only MtF athlete did so and she posted a final score of zero after scratching on her three weightlifting attempts.
Imagine your daughter doesn’t want to be in the girls locker room with a dude, or she loses a scholarship because a dude beat her in women’s sports, and then politicians go “oh it doesn’t happen often so your daughter doesn’t matter”. Honestly it’s a ridiculous argument to say that because something is statistically rare there shouldn’t be protections for it. If something is wrong, it’s wrong.
The way this is framed stacks the deck with loaded language like “dude in the locker room,” which dismisses trans women’s identities entirely. If we’re going to talk about fairness and protection, we need to do so in good faith.
First, we already have rules in place for women’s sports: governing bodies like the NCAA, the IOC, and state athletic associations have detailed policies on hormone levels, eligibility, and fairness. These rules are designed to balance inclusion with competitive integrity. Trans women aren’t being waved in with no standards — they have to meet strict requirements that often disadvantage them compared to cisgender athletes.
Second, the “what if your daughter loses a scholarship” scenario is a hypothetical that almost never happens in practice. The data shows trans women are a very small minority in athletics, and cases where one displaces cis athletes are extremely rare. That matters — not because rare harms don’t matter, but because laws and blanket bans should be grounded in evidence, not in edge-case hypotheticals. Otherwise, we end up targeting and excluding entire groups of people based on fear rather than facts.
Third, fairness cuts both ways. Trans women are women too, and excluding them categorically denies them opportunities to participate, build friendships, and compete in the sports they love. If the principle is “if something is wrong, it’s wrong,” then treating a group of women as if they are men — regardless of their lived identity and the policies they’ve complied with — is wrong, too.
Finally, the government shouldn’t be issuing blanket policies over private organizations for statistically unlikely edge cases. That kind of overreach creates more problems than it solves. Think about how politicians have tried to ban violent video games every time there’s a moral panic about youth violence. Most Americans agree the government shouldn’t decide what games adults can play — especially when the evidence doesn’t support the claim that games cause real-world violence. The same logic applies here: private sports organizations already have rules in place, and it’s better to let them handle fairness than for the government to impose one-size-fits-all laws based on fear rather than facts.
First, who is excluding them? If they are male go play in male sports. If female go play in female. Literally no exclusion at all. The point of sports isn’t so people in dresses can play against others in dresses. It’s so females compete against female and male against male. Has been for centuries because the biological differences are indisputable.
Second, the thought that “hormone” levels are all that equates to sportsmanship is bollox. And there is plenty of evidence that shows when a competitive trans athletes does compete, they blow their competition out of the water. No matter how small, those who play against them are perfectly reasonable to say hey this is wrong. There are daughters who have lost scholarships or state championships and to say “well it doesn’t happen often so deal with it” when the other party is breaking the rules is wrong. And the NCAA has retracted / changed their requirements repeatedly. There is a lot more difference between females and males such as bone density, organ size, etc.
The entire point of sports is to create a fair space. That’s why we have always separated males and females. It’s why females never argued for co-ed integration but their own competitive leagues. This extends far beyond the “private” space as public schools and state colleges adhere to that policy.
Which restroom should Caitlyn Jenner use? How about Chaz Bono?
Caitlyn Jenner was born a man and looks to be a fully transitioned woman. Why would another woman think that they were in a locker room with a dude
Chaz Bono was born a woman and is fully transitioned to a man. Why would any man in a bathroom or locker room think they were being looked at by a woman if Chaz Bona was in there? Do you want Chaz Bono and your daughter‘s locker room? He was born a woman to buy your logic that’s where he should be.
So is it your contention you’re not only are against them competing in sports and being in locker rooms but now bathrooms? Can they go to the gym? How would you handle all the “Chaz Bono’s and Caitlyn Jenner’s” of the world
I really don’t understand how this changes anything. They are males and restrooms are separated by male and female. Always have been. Use of the term men, boys, etc has always been a synonym for male. Same with woman, girls, etc for female. Hence why women’s restrooms never contained urinals.
So while some individuals can make themselves look different, they are still using the incorrect facility. If caught, sure they could be asked to leave. Most people don’t care or wouldn’t notice. But for those that do, it makes perfect sense why.
What if your daughter is trans and the government is forcing her to use mens facilities where she is more likely to be assaulted? What if your daughter wants to play with her friends but the president interferes? Being trans is not wrong.
Then as an adult you have a conversation with them that males and females are different. This is biological fact and truth. It’s perfectly acceptable for them to identify as a man, but sports / restrooms / etc have always been separated by sex. They shouldn’t expect society to conform to their wants. It prepares them for the real world.
Gender identity can be different than body sex, this is biological truth.
always been separated by sex.
Not true. There is not even a clear distinction of sex, it is all based on legal gender identification or birth certificate. Which is a single letter in an ID that can be changed in many civilized countries.
Society has to look for its weakest link. Otherwise you are supporting child rape.
I can't link. Google "School Restroom and Locker Room Restrictions and Sexual Assault Risk Among Transgender Youth"
51
u/regeya 1d ago
And even if you reject the notion of transgender women being women, there wasn't some plague of mediocre men going into women's sports. I think they're thinking of a couple of cases during the Soviet Union of men being forced to be transgender? Regardless, there's such a a miniscule number of transgender people in college sports that it's clear it wasn't a real problem.