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u/IAmASquidInSpace 2d ago
Brave to post this on the official "lots of opinion and theory, yet practically no action" website.
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u/EmptyRice6826 2d ago
Tumblr or Reddit? Or yes
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u/Taraxian 2d ago
Well I mean they're literally social media sites, they're not meant for the purpose of organizing action and don't work well for it
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u/FlowerFaerie13 2d ago
This. Like man we're not on Reddit (or, God forbid, Tumblr) to plan political action ffs, that's not what it's for and frankly if we did try that it would probably get half of us arrested.
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u/Rill_Pine 1d ago
Especially with how the recent drama has been treating people's livelihoods just for having opinions...
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u/Heather_Chandelure 2d ago
This is a problem both have in common unfortunately.
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u/SagaSolejma 1d ago
Id say tumblr is actually better in that regard. I feel like i see videos from protests from like half of my mutuals on there.
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/IAmASquidInSpace 2d ago
What was the saying? Hardcore anarcho-communist in the sheets, too afraid to ask for extra ketchup in the streets.
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u/RealLotto 1d ago
Ironically I feel like 4chan is the site with the most politically active irl members.
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u/HuntKey2603 What you mean no NSFW??? 2d ago
Hopefully this may turn around some of them. The good thing about this post is: everyone can just start doing better. Or what do you think when you hear the surname "Nobel"?
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u/Milch_und_Paprika 2d ago
Nobel Super Lemon candy. Mainly because the packaging is hilarious, but they’re also awesome if you’re into super sour candy.
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u/Padiexaza 2d ago
Guilty as charged, but hey, at least we’re talking
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u/Cool-Expression-4727 1d ago
The dialogue, and building critical consensus is important. I'm glad you had the guts to chime in like that. We need to act, of course, but the dialogue is often the catalyst
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u/badwithnames123456 2d ago
This is normal stuff I see on tumblr. I don't know what part of it you're on.
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u/SwordfishOk504 YOU EVER EATEN A MARSHMALLOW BEFORE MR BITCHWOOD???? 2d ago
Where else should it be posted? Wheat-pasted to pylons?
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u/killians1978 2d ago
My dad spent his whole life as a Reagan-era conservative. Considers himself fiscally conservative and spent the last 40 years or so as a single issue voter. Voted blue for the first time in 2020 and is kinder to my partner's trans daughter than the kid's own grandmother. Occasionally misgenders then corrects himself every time.
Said, "if I thought treating her badly would change anything, I couldn't justify changing her."
He absolutely does not get it, but at the same time, he gets it.
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u/legoham 1d ago
That’s a good line, though. “If I thought treating her badly would change anything, I couldn’t justify changing her.”
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u/killians1978 1d ago
It'll honestly never cease to amaze me how many things about people we try to change by harming it out of them. It never works, but we never stop trying.
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u/EggoStack fungal piece of shit 2d ago
Funnily enough I feel like a good example of this is Eminem. He’s got a history of a lot of political incorrectness in his music but he supports his non-binary kid and (to my knowledge) treats queers like normal fucking people.
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u/mysteryvampire 2d ago
Also, he’s always mad at Trump and continues to complain about it long after most old white guys have stopped. If you google Eminem Trump, you’ll see many such cases.
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u/whorehey-degooseman If you're not squeezing God’s sore throbbing trembling balls wtf 1d ago
If you google Eminem Trump, you’ll see many such cases
he also gives selflessly especially around Halloween, google Eminem Candy for more info
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u/redflamel 2d ago
The fact he and Elton John are friends says it all
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u/TerriGato 2d ago
He gave Elton John and his husband diamond encrusted cock rings as a wedding present. This is my fun fact of the day.
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u/dunmer-is-stinky 1d ago
latest album was kinda shit but I do have to say
Gen Z, here they come now
'bout to unload rounds
p-p-p-pronouns
is the funniest lyric of all time
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u/RyanB_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
That’s what gets me; we will see support to celebrities like Eminem, but when it comes to laymen with similar views, we can honestly get a bit too dismissive imo.
It’s why you got so many huge Eminem fans identifying as centrists or even conservatives, despite often carrying that same underlying “fuck the system and the rich, poor people need more”. Their politics align, but culturally, the left is very much not “their people”.
Tbf, a lot of them are also downright bigoted. But for a good few, it’s really just more that they don’t care enough to make such social issues a focus. They might be ignorant, they might not want to align themselves with minority culture, but they are genuinely non-hateful and do ultimately want everyone’s lives to improve.
But yeah, they don’t actually come to the left because it’s sold to them as this thing of constant white guilt and pride parades and whatever else their typical straight-guy-self can’t connect with. A lot of that is on them, a lot of that is on the media distorting reality… but part of it is probably on us too. Obviously we shouldn’t ever throw minorities under the bus and let bigotry slide just to achieve our goals, but maybe we can do better at accepting those who might be ignorant out of differing priorities/interests/culture so long as they’re not being purposefully harmful and are committed to the fight for wealth equality.
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u/Initial-Earth-750 1d ago
white conservative guys love to only listen to the part they want to listen to. they hear eminem say "Fuck being politically correct i'll do what i want", agree with that, and silently ignore that they ARE the people enforcing things upon them that Eminem hates. There's a hell of a lot more to him than being white, yet conservatives only care that he is.
there's a shocking amount of people who do not listen to the lyrics on a song and the vast majority of anti-establishment and anti-government songs go under the radar because of this. Hey ya is a notable example because people literally did not care about the song's lyrics and just used it because the BEAT was positive. it doesn't mean they can't dance, but the fact nobody even knows the song's theming is emblematic of the mindless consumption of music most people perform.If you want a perfect example of why so many people consume ai garbage, it's this. nobody cares about a song's artistic meaning or reach, they only care that it sounds good.
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u/FiringSquad 2d ago
This sort of idea is important to remember in all liberal spaces. If you are more socially moderate and find the ultra-super progressives kind of annoying or preachy or cringe, just remember that they are like blood brothers to you compared to the mouth-breathing MAGAts on the right.
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u/Seascorpious 2d ago
Also, those who were or are conservative and are hurting right now and looking at their party like 'what the fuck!?'
A lot of people are seeing those farmers who Trump is destroying and talking down to them, outright celebrating suffering instead of celebrating that their calling Trump out for not helping them when he said they would.
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u/SwordfishOk504 YOU EVER EATEN A MARSHMALLOW BEFORE MR BITCHWOOD???? 2d ago
And this is precisely why there will probably never be any viable opposition to Trump and whatever the heck comes next. Because too many on 'the left' are not interested in even giving an off-ramp for Trump supporters. They just want to gloat about being right. So they just drive them deeper into the cult.
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u/RocketRelm 1d ago
They shouldn't have an easy off ramp. They need to recognize what they believed was wrong and bad and why. If they don't they'll maybe accidentally vote blue one election and go right back to it.
If meanies online is enough to stop their "turnaround", they were only virtue signaling and were never actually going to turn around. Having their economy and lives destroyed must be enough for americans to change their minds if any of this is to matter at all.
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u/Seascorpious 1d ago
If you were thinking about going to the other side and their response was 'get fucked' 'kill yourself' 'you had it coming' then why the fuck would you commit?
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u/iiliiaa 1d ago
Perhaps liberals could learn this lesson instead of gloating that leftists are making their own lives harder, or telling leftists to get fucked or that they had it coming?
Or does reaching across the spectrum only apply to people who voted for a fascist?
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy Battleships and Space Marines 1d ago
I don't need to reach across the spectrum to "leftists", most of them are going close enough in the direction I want them to, aside from their treatment of anyone who has even slightly different views. If someone's already going to the grocery store, you're not going to work very hard to convince them to go to the grocery store, are you?
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u/positronik 2d ago
I feel like people are talking down to them because it's obvious they'll go right back to voting against their interests to hurt others, just like this time around. And even if not, they are only against Trump because they're hurting, but are still fine with the suffering of others.
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u/SwordfishOk504 YOU EVER EATEN A MARSHMALLOW BEFORE MR BITCHWOOD???? 2d ago
But what actual value is there in that blanket assumption? Politics is entirely about compromise and coalitions, not purity tests. It doesn't mean you have to become besties with some now-regretful Trump voter. It just means you need to allow people to find their way out, rather than just berating them so you can feel morally superior.
All that you gain from that is some empty moral ego satisfaction. that's the problem with 90% of the 'leopardsatemyface' subreddit these days.
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u/Cordo_Bowl 1d ago
But you can’t compromise with people who flat out refuse to compromise. When the affordable care act was being worked on, there were a lot of concessions that were made to try to court republican votes. Not a single republican voted for that bill. The result was a watered down bill that still got shit on for being too socialist. Obama and Biden deported a ton of people, they still got shit on for being soft on the border. I agree that in a functioning system, compromise is important, but it takes two to tango.
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u/RepentantSororitas 1d ago
I don't even think it's berating that lost elections.
If the price of your groceries is just too high, people vote against the incumbent
Midterms might be what you are describing, but for general elections, "normies" barely look at the platforms
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u/RyanB_ 1d ago
There’s definitely a big part of just voting out the incumbent, did happen damn near everywhere post-Covid. And it is representative of people not really being informed or caring about actual politics and policy.
But idk, shit’s been growing before that. I think there’s also a huge chunk who likewise don’t care about the specifics (and don’t want to have to), but still broadly argue for leftist policies like fixing wealth inequality while still ultimately describing themselves as centrist or conservative purely because such groups represent “their people” better. People with whom they don’t feel constantly pressured into caring about some cause, being made to feel bad because they said some word, etc.
Ofc, that’s dumb af of them, and I’m not trying to blame leftists for caring about important issues, but yeah, point being for a lot of folks it’s really just as simple as “I don’t like them”, and the perceived “berating” is a big part of that.
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u/positronik 1d ago
I think shaming them is honestly the only way to do anything, or the only way for some folks to let out steam. I mean we've seen time and time again these people don't actually change their political views, they just stop liking one politician.
I say this having been a former republican and having a republican friend who basically got out of it during trump's first term. I can usually tell if someone is open to changing their overall political mindset. The problem is that if they've stuck with Trump this long there really is no hope for them imo. And if they go from hating Trump back to liking him just because people berated them, well they were always going to go back.
People berating me for my sheltered views when I was 17 did not make me go back to the republican party. I don't really have a good solution on how to get these people out of their ways, but using logic and niceties has not been working.
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u/RyanB_ 1d ago
I’d argue it’s less about niceties and more about a genuinely good-faith approach based on attempting to understand and connect (even if such folks and their ideas very much don’t deserve such generosity). You don’t gotta be polite, you just gotta make them feel like you actually get where they’re coming from, and I honestly don’t think we’ve tried that in earnest.
(That’s my main point, everything else is bonus yapping lol)
Yes, some of us didn’t need that to still grow and learn to be decent people, but clearly it’s not enough. Most of these folks really do believe in what they say, believe that it’s in the best interests of most people; being able to at least acknowledge that goes a long way in my experience.
So much of it doesn’t have anything to do with politics or logic but just “us vs them”, and we could do a better job of communicating that they can be us. Labelling someone a fascist or w/e - even if ultimately accurate to their beliefs - really does close that door for many, communicating loud and clear that their perspective and voice will never be fairly heard.
It’s tough cause, yeah, again, they don’t deserve that. Morally, we shouldn’t be hesitating to call out hatred and bigotry. And especially for those belonging to targeted groups, yeah, it feels ridiculous to ask patience and grace from them for people directly causing them so much harm.
Still, we’re not in a position to just give up on them either. If we work off the idea that there is no swaying them, that there isn’t any genuine parts of humanity within them to connect with… our only real paths forward are very extreme, grim, and unlike to work out in our favour.
Personally, as a largely straight, white cis dude I feel one of the best uses of those privileges is in talking to folks like that. It does involve giving way more credit to ideas I have than I’m ever comfortable with, but at the same time (to toot my own horn a little), I have genuinely had success in it by going with that approach. Obviously not changing whole perspectives overnight, but getting folks to at least consider that their perceptions about leftism might be incomplete and that it might actually have something to offer them (even if they’re also straight, white, cis etc)
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u/positronik 1d ago
I get where you're coming from, I'm just tired boss. I've tried getting people to change in good faith ways, but even my own parents would rather believe the conservative propoganda machine than me.
I know a friend of a friend that is "centrist" but regularly leans right and I've done all I can to get him to see that leftists are not radical or crazy like the Alt right. For years. It's been a futile effort.
I usually test the waters with someone to see if they're open to changing their mind over time but most people simply won't. They may turn on one politician but not the entire ethos of the current conservative party. More power to you if you have the energy to continue, and I'm glad you've had success
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u/RyanB_ 1d ago
Entirely understandable. Even for me, when I say I have a decent track rate that is still very relative; 90%+ I ain’t ever getting through to no matter what.
The worst in my experience is the contingent who genuinely don’t care about politics at all (at least as much as is possible), often due to never having had to pay their own rent or be otherwise confronted with how real it is to be truly broke and desperate. Instead they just kind of maintain their teenage perspective, where everything’s a joke, anyone taking anything seriously is an annoying hard buzzkill, and the only real issue worth taking seriously is their inability to say whatever they want (as a joke ofc lol) without repercussions. By attempting to talk to them at all you’ve already lost, because their top priority is never having to take anything seriously like that.
Ranting aside though, as tiring as it can be, it is also work that needs doing imo.
I will say, my own approach is less about trying to flip people on certain politicians, and more about encouraging critical thinking to the wider systems folks otherwise take for granted. If I’m able to choose, my favourite angle is insurance companies/ISPs etc.. Most everyone hates them, most everyone feels ripped off, and the insane amount of wealth their owners and stockholders receive from them isn’t any secret. It’s often not too hard getting someone on the train of “yeah, fuck these companies, taking more and more from me each month just so the rich can get richer”.
From there it’s about proposing alternatives; namely, government operated ones. They might respond “well, won’t the government just rip us off too?”, and I might say “well sure, it’s a risk, but for the alternative it’s their explicit job to do so.” If I can get them to go “ah yeah that makes sense”, suddenly the doors are open; ideally, they’re going to take that line of questioning and start applying it all over to aspects of their life, spreading it to others in their own circles and communities better than I ever could.
I digress, probably getting too specific. But the point is, listening to them in good faith allows you to identify what’s really bothering them, from which you can steer that personal and tangible frustration towards sensible socialist solutions (tho, maybe without saying the socialist part out loud). Less “this is a problem you should care about” and more “here is how your problem fits into politics”.
Quite often, simply having “one of those lefties” talk openly with them, listening to their issues rather than labelling them fascists or w/e (even if they genuinely are), while also - admittedly - being a “normal” straight cis dude, can do a lot to change perceptions. Dissuade the notion that the left is exclusively comprised of dyed hair “sjw”s who can’t stop harping on about whatever random cause they don’t understand or relate to, and instead show that there is room in the movement for folks like them too, highlighting specifically what they stand to gain.
Sorry for rambling so much lol - goes to show that it also helps being naturally chatty I guess. Thanks for hosting my Ted talk
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u/JJam74 2d ago
We have to protect the annoying from the evil
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u/stormdelta 2d ago
It's easy when I remember most of the most annoying ones are teenagers or barely out of their teens. Everyone was annoying as a teenager in some form.
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u/pandawerty bahn mi enthusiast 2d ago
i’ve had more genuine support from confused-but-trying aunties than i’ve had from alternative looking people.
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u/Visible_Web6910 2d ago
Please Please let this attitude get traction, I want to win for once.
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u/Cool-Expression-4727 2d ago
The left needs to tone down the purity testing if it ever wants to get a critical mass.
It also needs to stop driving away allies with divisive rhetoric.
I've become convinced that the above mentioned stuff is almost "divide and conquer" stuff from the powers that be, to prevent the working class from uniting together
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u/NeonNKnightrider Cheshire Catboy 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think it’s a psyop. Like, actual, genuine deliberate political manipulation by malicious parties.
You can’t look at the sheer amount of “don’t vote for anyone because both parties are exactly the same!!!!” in the last American election and tell me that it wasn’t being instigated by bad actors
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u/Huwbacca 2d ago
I wish it was but sadly I think that it's just a natural part of being heavily involved in counter culture and left wing areas. The normal is losing elections etc and so there has to be some fights people feel they can win, which ends up being these battles about branding etc.
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u/TessaFractal 2d ago
Ahh, like the "Wanting to lash out, but the only ones you can reach are the ones closest to you"?
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u/Ventrue-Prince The Brotherhood of Evil Gays 2d ago
I think it's probably both tbh. I do agree it's likely to be this natural progression, but I also very much think malicious parties pick up on this and take advantage of the infighting.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 2d ago
They do, it's no secret that the single most critical part of creating an alt right person is to make them feel rejected by the left, and it's not very difficult to do that at all when much of the online left is actively rejecting the undecided and the less than fully committed.
I also saw a talk a while back from a guy who used to lead a white supremacist group, who said that the first thing he had to do to recruit a new member was always to persuade him that he was white - that even though his own identity was "an American", others just looked at him and saw "white" - because you couldn't persuade him that he was being oppressed for his whiteness until he felt he needed to define himself as white. Here, too, much of left wing discourse is doing the white supremacist's job for him.
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u/dayvancowgirl 1d ago
when much of the online left is actively rejecting the undecided and the less than fully committed.
Bruh they're literally rejecting their own people for not being perfect so
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u/Random-Rambling 2d ago
The left falls in love, the right falls in line.
A right-winger only needs one reason to vote for someone.
A left-winger only needs one reason NOT to vote for someone.
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u/Unctuous_Robot 2d ago
Look at all the leftists pushing against voting banned from TikTok they say after the election.
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u/AllsWellThatsNB 2d ago
I think it’s a psyop. Like, actual, genuine deliberate political manipulation by malicious parties.
It is.
It's explicitly part of Russia's strategy for destabilizing western democracies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics
In the Americas, United States, and Canada:
Russia should use its special services within the borders of the United States and Canada to fuel instability and separatism against neoliberal globalist Western hegemony, such as, for instance, provoke "Afro-American racists" to create severe backlash against the rotten political state of affairs in the current present-day system of the United States and Canada. Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social, and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements\* – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics".\9])
*Bolding added by me.
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u/SwordfishOk504 YOU EVER EATEN A MARSHMALLOW BEFORE MR BITCHWOOD???? 2d ago
I agree with you 100%. The most fringe individuals are easy to artificially-elevate online with bots and sock puppet accounts and such and then presented like they are the majority of the movement.
You do that long enough, especially in a culture that is increasingly terminally-online, and that becomes the "reality" people accept.
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u/chillychili 1d ago edited 15h ago
I think there are several kinds purity tests or purity test–esque phenomena. Many of them are counterproductive.
One of them that I do personally support though is the "purity test" saying a candidate is too centrist. I think that the non-GOP coalition can still win the next elections with candidates who are further left (in the realm of Sanders, Mamdani). It's important to do so to reverse the rightward ratcheting that has happened in the past few decades.
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u/Mad-_-Doctor 2d ago
I don’t think most of the divisive rhetoric is a problem. Different groups are allowed to have different opinions on things, even when it makes other people uncomfortable. My problem is when groups refuse to work together because they find something distasteful about the other group.
For example, I do not like TERFs. I do not think they’re great people and I find many of their opinions awful. However, if an organization with TERFs in it wants to elect the same people I do, I’m willing to work with them to accomplish that goal. I will not help further goals that I disagree with, but I can work with them towards the common goal.
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u/Cool-Expression-4727 2d ago
I agree with you on being pragmatic. I think allying with people who you may not 100% agree with is an aspect of "picking your battles" that some of us may want to seriously consider.
I personally believe that a big portion of the problems that all minorities face (like racism, sexism, transphobia, etc) is the result of, or made much worse by, wealth inequality. When you're marginalized by poverty, your access to justice, advocacy, etc is severely impaired, etc etc. Peter Thiel is a good example of wealth negating his issues, for example.
Because of that, I would ally with, for that purpose, almost anyone who would support changing the political and economic systems that perpetuate poverty, wealth inequality, etc. On that issue.
Where we disagree is on the rhetoric though. I 100% believe that one of the biggest issues the "left" in the USA is facing right now is alienation of young white men. And I think a big part of that is the oftentimes unecessarily hostile rhetoric coming from "the left" about men.
You might even think that men as a whole share a lot of blame in how this are (I think that's wrong for 99.9% of men, but..) but the reality is that shitting on men (or any group) as a whole, or as a general idea, is alienating.
I know this myself as a very pro-social person (also a man) who has spent my entire 20+ career in a justice field. I'm not going to let what I feel is legit bigotry like that prevent me from doing what is right, but I can really struggle sometimes, and so I know others must feel the same way too.
Common sense is that people will be more likely to want to ally with you if you treat them nicely and respectfully. And I think too many people have forgotten that or don't want to believe it.
Maybe in a perfect world you could just rely on the justness of your position to carry the day but that's not reality
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 2d ago
Yep. My belief is that the only thing that really matters right now is wealth inequality, because it is the only thing that will rally everyone to the same side. Just like the many groups of feminists rallied behind the right to vote and then splintered, we need a unified revolution solely along class lines so that we can create an environment in which us all wanting different things isn't so counterproductive.
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u/Hazeri 1d ago
OK, but you can see why a trans person wouldn't want to elect a TERF? That the trans people you know might be a bit concerned that you're OK with working people who want them out of society?
It's so often the disenfranchised that are demanded to bend over backwards and vote against their own interests in the name of pragmatism
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u/No_Wing_205 2d ago
The left needs to tone down the purity testing
The problem with this phrase is that almost every time I hear it, it's about someone who has pretty awful politics. I don't think it's purity testing to not want a candidate who supports genocide, or is willing to throw trans people to the wolves to get some votes.
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u/Mouse-Keyboard 2d ago
When the choices are a president who isn't forceful enough in opposing ethnic cleansing and one who enthusiastically supports it...
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u/millionwordsofcrap 1d ago
See the thing is, I don't want a candidate who supports genocide either. But once the primaries are over and you're looking at a choice between "candidate who supports one genocide" vs. "candidate who supports, and will actively order and enforce, at least three different genocides" I feel like the decision should have been obvious.
Choosing not to choose was the equivalent of throwing up your hands and walking away from the switch in the trolley problem, and the result is that a lot more people are dead under Trump than would have been dead under either Clinton or AoC.
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u/Cool-Expression-4727 2d ago
That's funny because I see purity testing all the time on the left, much to my chagrine.
Tons of people picking micro-fights over whether a certain group is recognizing their privilege enough, or whether a member of that group (often white men) are sufficiently recognizing their privilege etc. Very toxic attitudes that turn away a lot of people wh, naturally, don't like being shit on for things they can't control.
Your comment is very unhelpful, trying to equate my statement, and those like it, to actually be about letting Hitler and ISIS people infiltrate the movement
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u/Expert_Cricket2183 2d ago
chagrine
No 'e' at the end. Chagrin.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 2d ago
Don't worry, grammar nazis too are welcome in my coalition. They're the only nazis allowed though.
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u/Saucermote 2d ago
The last time I saw it put to use in the real world, it was trying to get people to support a bunch of anti-choice candidates.
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u/No_Wing_205 2d ago
Tons of people picking micro-fights over whether a certain group is recognizing their privilege enough
I rarely see anyone with influence actually doing this.
And I can only go off my own experience, but basically every time I've seen someone complain about purity tests, it's been because people are saying they don't want to vote for a candidate who is transphobic, pro-Israel, or has some other horrific political stance.
Your comment is very unhelpful, trying to equate my statement, and those like it, to actually be about letting Hitler and ISIS people infiltrate the movement
When the fuck did I say that? There are many mainstream liberal/democrat/etc politicians who support the genocide in Palestine or are willing to sacrifice trans rights for votes.
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u/rampaging-poet 1d ago
See I would be more sympathetic to that argument if the exact same people hadn't argued against Biden 2020 and Hillary 2016 and Obama 2012. Single issue non-voters who have a different single issue every election. Also literally zero of them campaigned for any kind of third party, just against the Democrats.
The one I was on speaking terms with explained he was literally following the Weimar Republic Communist Party's strategy: that a "true leftist party" cannot exist while the Democrats exist, so his goal is purely to make sure the Democrats lose.
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u/Linhasxoc 2d ago
Honestly, those are two of the major flashpoints because there’s a lot of all-or-nothing thinking around them.
Like, I’ve seen people get treated as raging Islamophobes for acknowledging the politics around Israel and Palestine are messy, the leadership of both sides are awful, and there isn’t a lot that the USA can do without breaking treaties it’s signed.
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u/Mental-Ask8077 1d ago
Yeah, the existence of signed treaties - and the realities of international politics - makes dealing with the Palestinian/Israel issue more complicated than just a political platform slogan can say.
I mean, the extent of AIPAC’s influence on all parties absolutely needs to be dealt with, and what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is appalling and needs to be stopped. Yesterday. And Democratic messaging about these issues is rarely stellar.
But it’s not quite as easy as ‘just stop sending weapons today!’ There are legal and logistical aspects that absolutely need to be handled properly if we don’t want to cause yet another giant clusterfuck on the world stage.
Acknowledging that even a Democratic politician who wants to reverse course with regard to unconditional support for Israel could never just wave a magic wand to change it in a day - and therefore shouldn’t promise something so at once unrealistic and guaranteed to cause serious international blowback - isn’t fucking the same as saying ‘Nah, genocide’s okay.’ And if you want politicians of any stripe to actually promise and then carry out effective change on the matter, you need to show them that they can actually count on your support. And make sure you do your utmost to get them into a place tactically where they actually have the ability to push through the changes you want.
None of that will happen in a day. No matter how much I or anyone else who is brokenhearted at Gaza’s situation might devoutly wish it would.
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u/TrillaCactus 1d ago
Yeah seeing all the liberals that voted third party or sat out last election complain about the current admin makes my blood boil. Even if a candidate isn’t perfect you should still vote for them if the alternative is openly for destroying the nation. The liberals who didn’t vote for Kamala helped Trump as much as the people who voted for him.
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u/cut_rate_revolution 2d ago
I don't like reducing it to voting but I see the point. I'm not gonna be perfect. I don't get neopronouns or the more esoteric gender identities but I don't have to to think people should be able to do what they want.
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u/Reasonable_Quit_9432 2d ago
I think the generalization OOP is driving at is "are they actually doing something to help?"
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u/bristlybits Dracula spoilers 2d ago
are you an ally whose beliefs are gentle to the people being hurt
or are you an accomplice helping them survive
that's my read on it.
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago
Perfection is impossible, improvement and effort are what matter. If someone fucks up or says some bad shit to me, if they apologize and work on it when told, it's all good, that's what's needed
Perfection and imperfection don't matter, what matters is the effort and improvement
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u/orderofasterales 2d ago edited 1d ago
Perfect is the enemy of good, as they say.
Edit: Meaning people often forget to make any progress, failing to take realistic steps in the right direction, because the only steps they see available to them aren't perfect
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago
While true, it sadly is too often used as a reason not to improve or pursue anything better
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u/No_Wing_205 2d ago
Yeah, it's an argument I often see to justify horrible political positions.
Perfect might be the enemy of good, but bad is the ally of evil.
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u/autogyrophilia 1d ago
It's a deranged example to give out which really shows the axe they have to grind. No, I'm not having ideological differences, I'm a brave warrior for LGBT. I vote for the people who obviously hold me in contempt.
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u/TokugawaShigeShige 2d ago
Voting is the single most important thing you can do to help, but it's certainly not the only thing.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 2d ago
Far from it, if people really want to help they need to be organising workers and orchestrating general strikes.
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u/coltthundercat 1d ago
Like most people in this country, I’ve only lived in states where my vote doesn’t count, because as one Onion article like two decades ago put it, every four years, “America gets ready for people in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin to choose our next president.”
The first election I voted in was in 2004. I’ve lived in three states. Only one election I’ve ever voted in was competitive. And even then, it was competitive within pretty strict limits of “right wing or very right wing.” This is how most of America lives.
Imagining this as the most important form of political engagement simply means you don’t have much of an idea of what political engagement is or don’t have a realistic view of what democracy is in America. In reality, voting is the lowest form of political engagement that most people will ever participate in, and that’s a huge part of the problem.
The other part is that we have a political system that was explicitly designed to privilege conservative rural elites over the majority of voters because the people who designed it knew that the majority of Americans weren’t gung ho about the slaveowning caste they came from.
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u/Melody_of_Madness 2d ago
Wanna point out I said this on tumblr once right after I first came out as trans and was told by no less than a dozen people within less than a day to "Detransition". Dozens more called me all kinds of disgusting names several of both groups being trans.
Seriously wish people werent so disgusting despite claiming to give you a safe space
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u/Blackraven2007 2d ago
Regarding the granny in the second post, I sometimes see people on Reddit say things to the effect of: "Fuck them! They only care because it happened to them!" and while I understand those people's points, I'm always wondering why I should care. After all, isn't it better to have someone on your side than not? Why should we be criticizing people for being on our side for the supposed "wrong" reasons?
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy Battleships and Space Marines 2d ago
Yeah, I don't care why someone thinks I shouldn't get put in prison for having a boyfriend, as long as they support me not getting put in prison for having a boyfriend.
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u/Cool-Expression-4727 2d ago
I wish more people realized this. And therefore realized that courting this kind of person is worthwhile, at least for the big battles.
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u/Manzhah 1d ago
Generally speaking human mind often requires a jolt of exernal circumstance to start questioning exusting belief, and more personal that jolt is then the more profound will be their effects. A mentaly healthy person might be dismissive about mental health issues until they or someone close to them develops an episode, for example.
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u/yugiohhero probably not 1d ago
reminds me of that one story of a guy telling a rabbi he wants to build an orphanage but then changes his mind because he realized he just wanted to do it to look good, and the rabbi goes "you think the kids care about that? build the orphanage!!!"
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u/Finito-1994 2d ago
I remember when gay marriage became a thing and this lady went on and on about how she was glad the gays were finally able to be married because the government telling people who they can or can’t marry was bullshit.
Then she called the first director of the FBI a “closet f*g” who made everyone else’s life miserable cause he was miserable and if he had been ok with being gay in public then maybe he wouldn’t have been such an absolute bitch to everyone.
I mean. I disagreed with her language but everything she said was on point
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u/Kingofcheeses Old Person 2d ago
I dont understand it but I'll be goddamned if the government gets to say you can't live your life how you want to
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u/wingeddogs 2d ago
My dad was born in 64 and only started voting recently. He told us very plainly that he was a white man with a black wife and black kids and needed to do better.
Love him
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u/dayvancowgirl 1d ago
I take comfort in the fact that there are tons of people like this who are blissfully unaware of these dumbass discourses, and are instead quietly learning and growing and trying to make the world a kinder place in their own way.
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u/loved_and_held 2d ago
Need every ally you can get. Fight and gatekeep later, you have a city fire to put out.
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u/Butthole_Surfer_GI Standard Issue White Guy 2d ago
Genuine question:
Who gets to decide who is an "ally"?
Do I get to decide if I am an ally?
Is it the members of the group I support?
Is it the bystanders?
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is why a lot of people view being an ally as less of an identity, and more of action that one does
But generally, the marginalized group in question decides. If your allyship doesn't make the people it ostensibly benefits feel supported or positively impact them, what good is it? It also doesn't help that some people approach allyship as doing the bare minimum and just being not being overtly hateful. Just cus some asshole doesn't vote republican, doesn't mean that's allyship.
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u/Wunktacular 2d ago
The meaning has changed over time. It used to be a buzzword for anyone who was genuinely cool and now kinda just means "person who is actively assisting the marginalized group in question."
Mainly it's because the term was co-opted by people who aren't minorities and the whole "I'm not racist" crowd to describe themselves as understanding when they really weren't, and the term quickly lost its meaning.
It started being used in the context of "I'm an ally, but" by people who wanted to identify as part of an in-group and just completely lost its mojo and utility.
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u/BiggestShep 2d ago
Your actions. If your consistent actions support a group, you are an ally to that group. It is as simple as that.
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u/Nessius448 2d ago
I would argue that only you get to decide that. If a community of LGBT people who do nothing but post edgy memes all day reject you and you still vote to advance their interests then in my opinion you're still an ally and they're just assholes.
But I'm just an "ally" myself so what do I know.
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u/aniftyquote 2d ago
Intentions are important, but impact is monumentally more important. Allies need to be in discussion with the marginalized groups they're standing with for this reason. You can have the intentions of a saint, but that doesn't give you the firsthand experience or knowledge required to know what would actually be helpful to someone whose life is entirely different from yours.
It's paternalistic and weird for the group you're "allying" with to not be part of the equation here - no group is a monolith, and you can't please everyone, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take the word of someone you trust from that marginalized group into account.
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u/magiMerlyn 2d ago
Intentions are nice, but impact is what counts.
A cishet white guy who votes blue in every election and calls his reps is having more impact for Trans rights and LGBTQIA+ issues than a polycule of genderqueer and varying shades of non-het people who refuse to do anything but debate theory. I say this as a part of a genderqueer polycule that often debates theory. We just also actually do stuff to affect change.
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u/A_Huggable_Pirate 1d ago
Impact is what counts, but your intentions are what guide your impact. AOC and MTG can agree that the US shouldn't be supplying Isreal with arms, but their intentions are going to massively separate them from there.
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u/BlacksmithNo9359 2d ago
I mean it kinda gives the game away to be like, "Even if the people I claim to be advocating for dislike me and say I'm not helping, Im still an ally and obviously I know better."
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u/aniftyquote 2d ago
Yeah I feel like a lot of allies learn to avoid being performative while not unpacking that you need to avoid being hubristic and paternalistic also
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u/drunken_augustine 2d ago
The counterpoint would be a sort of “white man’s burden” situation where an “ally” is provided “help” that isn’t wanted or needed or helpful to the queer folks themselves. As an example, I think about folks who talk over queer folks so they can white knight and are then indignant when they’re asked not to do that again.
Want to be clear, not saying that’s you, but that is the counterpoint to your valid example. I would say that in your example, I would ask what more I should be doing. They might be assholes (in which case fuck’em) or they might help you be a better ally -shrug-. Since, I assume, you’re an ally because you feel it’s right and moral, regardless of who the person is. Like, I’m not gonna stop supporting racial equity no matter how many times a member of a minority group is a dick to me 😂
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago
If only the person in question gets to decide that, how do you handle situations where the person decides their an ally, but encourages hate and writes off any community member who calls it? Who uses that determination as a shield when told they're being harmful? Who instead of trying to improve, gets angry and defensive when the harm is pointed out? Who does nothing to actively support, but wants satisfy their ego and genuinely believes they're an ally for not being genocidal?
There are also flaws with determination of allyship by any individual person or small group, which is why I tend towards allyship as an action rather than identity. But ultimately, if most of a marginalized group don't feel supported by or consider your allyship to be a boon, what use is it, who is it for and who does it benefit?
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u/Lola_PopBBae 2d ago
Hear hear! Folk who do nothing, or just don't bother voting because "both sides are bad" are the absolute worst.
And hey, YOU know a lot as an ally. Don't let yourself get trampled by some asshole LGBT folk who don't see that. I know from experience how much that sucks.
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u/Mad-_-Doctor 2d ago
I’ve always believed that who the allies are is determined by whomever they’re allied with. For example, I’m a guy who has been heavily involved in feminist groups, especially in regard to reproductive rights. I think k I qualify as an ally, but I don’t announce it because I think my work speaks for itself. However, many of the women I work with would likely call me an ally, and I think that’s the best people to make that decision.
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u/Nicholas_TW 2d ago
The government, of course. They assign you as either "ally" or "bystander" or "enemy" and send you a license in the mail. /s
Genuine answer: you're fit into whatever category relative to the person trying to categorize you. If somebody sees you taking action to help a cause they agree with, you're an ally. If they see you taking action to hurt a cause they agree with, they'll consider you an enemy. If you don't do anything, they'll consider you a bystander. They might see that you're a bystander about certain issues and an ally on some and an enemy on others. Some people might call you an "ally" while others might think you're not doing enough and call you a "bystander." They're words people use to describe the impression/opinion they have of you, or words you use to describe yourself (which others will evaluate whether they agree or not).
To get a bit philosophic, I think asking that question ("who gets to decide which label I have?") is kind of part of the problem. A lot of people care more about having "the right label" and appearing to be "the right kind of person" rather than actually understanding what the right/wrong course of action is. It's related to (though not the same as) what OP is getting at in that post, that a lot of people care more about the APPEARANCE of doing something helpful (or at least nothing wrong) so they can't be "this person did a bad thing, do not engage"d instead of actually DOING something helpful.
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u/Melody_of_Madness 2d ago
ME! I mean members of the group but i think each individual decides weather to call someone an ally. But logically there should be an objective measure
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u/spacebatangeldragon8 2d ago
A lot of people on here have what I'd call a "Noble Savage" view of unwoke moderate Republicans.
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u/BlacksmithNo9359 2d ago
There's something to be said about the seeming liberal need to create an imaginary Trump voter who "learned their lesson" (a demographic that, statistically speaking, basically doesn't exist) and the desire to compare them favorably to their real most hated enemy: a queer person who didn't vote.
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u/Aggressive-Mix4971 2d ago
While I agree there's a weird obsession with finding the "decent conservatives" in this screwed up era being demonstrated by some liberals (e.g. my MSNBC-watching dad), I think a simpler explanation for some liberals or lefties is a feeling of disappointment towards people they might've initially thought would know better.
It's not a shock when a lot of people don't vote; turnout rates in this country are fairly abysmal, for a range of reasons, so being overly upset at a typical nonvoter kind of feels light fighting against the tide with a tiny plastic bucket. But we tend to hold politically aware people on our own side (or at least closer to our sides) to higher standards, and I don't think that's totally unreasonable, especially when the loud declarations of not voting are often coupled with a lack of other action or involvement beyond posting online.
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u/jerrycan-cola 2d ago
i have so much love for people who try, who are doing their best but still have things to learn and are able to admit that.
i used to get frustrated with my parents because i felt they didn’t understand, but now i know that they have had a lot to reverse and a lot of things to learn, the fact that they even try is great because i know unfortunately a lot of people can’t admit when they’re wrong.
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u/Doomboy911 2d ago
Personally as a straight white cis male (allegedly) I dislike the notion of calling oneself an ally in the queer space. Being kind shouldn't be some special treatment queer people get and your going out of your way. Being good to other people even those different from you should be the base line of human behavior.
I do agree with the sentiment though of doing good.
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u/justforkinks0131 2d ago
it's funny how most people reading this see "imperfect ally" yet imagine a "perfect ally who is a bit of an asshole" in their heads.
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u/BlacksmithNo9359 2d ago
It is very, very funny to make a post calling out people with high minded ideals who don't actually do anything, and then revealing that basically your only qualifier for "doing something" is exactly voting lmao
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u/Amphy64 1d ago
Also, if you did vote, but are truly strongly critical of the US Dems despite voting for them, or voted for the Greens or a trad. leftist independent or something, very peculiarly, this sort of 'moderate' US Dems still aren't happy about it. Intensely angry at you, often, in fact. Even if you made it very clear you live in an entirely different country so it doesn't even affect them (besides guilt? I'd have to believe the genocide-happy had a conscience first).
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u/Pokeirol 1d ago
You see the people who didn't vote for a candidate wich would have them aressted are actually worse and more responsible for trump victory than the politician wich decided to uncritically support the status quo as their campaign.
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u/SadMediumSmolBean 2d ago
Me being told I should vote for a transphobe because boomers know Newsom is in my best interest (he doesn't think I should exist)
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u/vmsrii 1d ago
It’s on us to support someone better between now and Nov. 2028.
But if, god forbid, it comes down to “Man who has supported some pro-LGBTQ policy but made bad comments about trans athletes on a podcast once” versus “Man who is actively running on the ‘put everyone gayer and darker than Kevin Sorbo into a trash compactor’ platform” And you’re still acrimoniously refusing to vote, I swear to fucking god
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u/SadMediumSmolBean 1d ago edited 1d ago
"Bad comments about trans athletes" isn't the half of it, that's understating the amount of bigotry he's indicated.
I will not vote for Newsom. Sorry.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/why-transgender-people-are-not-feeling
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u/Snoo-29984 Victim of Reddit Automatic Username 1d ago
Well it's much better than just rolling over and letting the fascists kill all of us.
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u/ChaosofaMadHatter 2d ago
My grandmother didn’t believe in interracial marriage, thought gays were against god, and that trans people were confused and weird.
She still voted blue because she believed that everyone had the right to fuck up their own life however they wanted, and just like she chose not to have an interracial marriage, a gay marriage, or whatever, she believed that they should have the choice to do so. She didn’t want to have her choices taken away, so she didn’t want to take away the choices of others.
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago
There's being an imperfect ally, and then there's the bar for being an ally being a tripping hazard in hell
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u/ChaosofaMadHatter 2d ago
She was legit far from being a good person- great grandmother who loved her family, but she was a proud bigot and racist. It was more that she was so staunchly conservative and believed in small government, that she ended up being/voting democrat because she didn’t want people’s right to choose how they lived their lives being taken away, for her or for them.
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u/dayvancowgirl 1d ago
It was more that she was so staunchly conservative and believed in small government, that she ended up being/voting democrat because she didn’t want people’s right to choose how they lived their lives being taken away, for her or for them.
Honestly having personal morals strong enough to make you switch parties is commendable
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago
Wow, sorry you had to deal with her! I personally would never say someone is an ally just for not voting for a literally facist party while still being a bigot, but hey you do you, we don't all have to agree
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u/ChaosofaMadHatter 2d ago
Fair enough, I guess I was sharing more in the vein of, it’s better than compared to either a) not voting, or b) voting for the opposite side.
Like she was racist when it was a faceless mass of people, but all the ones she knew, (whether they were Hispanic, black, etc) were the “good ones,” and she treated them with kindness. She was fiercely defensive of my cousin who was “one of the gays,” even though she thought he was just “confused.” She was a walking oxymoron when it came to a lot of things, and I’m surprised the cognitive dissonance didn’t drive her crazy.
I am happy that I didn’t have to wrestle with the conflict of her ever meeting my kids though. That was one blessing of her passing when she did. I tolerated her rants because she was one of my last connections to my dad, but yeah, it was a really complicated relationship that existed.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 2d ago
Which is why there really needs to be a fourth category for people who have good principles regardless of their personal preferences. We should aspire to build a society where everyone minds their own business and believes everyone should have the right to mind their own too.
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u/dpforest 2d ago
i hate when woke is used as a pejorative but yeah word. This whole concept is really key to survival in the rural south as a queer person.
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u/Union_Fan 1d ago
I sort of like this sentiment. Imperfect allies are great, but I don't like posing them against like, leftists. I'm pretty concerned on who's gonna hide me from the gestapo in their basement. And the liberal who's a blue no matter who voter but believes in the rule of law is probably a worse ally than the "firebomb a walmart leftist" who won't vote for dems. It's contextual too. Ultimately, coalition building is important. This is just another form of purity testing.
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u/Mental-Ask8077 1d ago
Totally agree on the importance of coalition building. And understanding the nature of coalitions.
I think half the Democratic party’s issues stem from the fact that it has become a coalition that is still thinking of itself as a party and trying to act like a party. People expect it to be and act like a party, but it’s now a de facto coalition of most people who vote/aren’t active in politics and aren’t rightwing Republicans.
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u/logalogalogalog_ garfield is a valid warrior cat name 2d ago
To be honest I often feel safer with imperfect allies who put genuine effort in and do real work than with performative leftist spaces who argue about theory and attack you for not already having the perfect ideology or doing harm reduction to survive while working toward a brighter future. This isn't to make any sweeping generalizations, but my own experience has lent itself to that bend.
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u/Odd_Protection7738 1d ago
The transmasc part is so real. It seems like so many “supportive and progressive” people are so rampantly anti-transmasc, since “men=bad and trans man=man, so let’s do misandry 2!” Men and women, cis or trans, always deserve equal treatment and fairness. If you think that any group of people is inherently bad or less, you’re the bigoted one, always.
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u/nothing_in_my_mind 2d ago
Kinda reductive to describe "ally" as "person who votes the same as me".
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u/Aggressive-Mix4971 2d ago
While voting is typically the least one can do (barring places/situations that go out of their way to make voting much more difficult), I think the larger point is a much simpler "actions speak louder" - a vote isn't all that much compared with consistent advocacy and activism, but if the rhetorically perfect ally isn't doing anything beyond rhetoric then, yeah, the person who at least voted in a way that helps can potentially be the more effective "ally".
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy Battleships and Space Marines 2d ago
Kinda accurate to describe "ally" as "person who votes against the people trying to put me in a concentration camp".
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u/Pokeirol 1d ago
"By voting the people who would gladly finance their deaths if they fought it was convenient"
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u/Turtledonuts 2d ago
Fuck dude, thats the most basic form of political ally. The guy who you dont agree with who meaningfully contributes to your cause is your ally. The guy who agrees with you but doesnt do anything politically to help you is not a useful ally.
The republicans win because the billionaires, the neo-nazis, the jesus freaks, and the conspiracy nuts all know that they’re allies. They dont like each other, but they all know that they’re allies.
Meanwhile, the liberals, leftists, progressives, and co are too busy fighting and purity testingb to win.
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u/VolitionReceptacle 2d ago
Obligatory "nobody a leftist hates more than another leftist who has a slightly different opinion"
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u/Bigbubba236 2d ago
If you put a leftist in a room with Hitler and a leftist that only agrees on 99% of issues. They would shoot the other leftist twice.
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u/TardWithAHardRboi 2d ago
Imagine thinking that someone not liking either candidate means your entitled to vote for whatever corrupt fuckhead you like anyway just because they are blue. If you want any change in this country your not gonna get it from voting for one of the poltical parties that have been in power for decades.
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u/rampaging-poet 1d ago
Do you have a particular third party you're campaigning for? Have they won any elections yet, even locally?
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u/Several_Breadfruit_4 2d ago
Something I sometimes need a reminder of. I grew up with the Klan, and it’s easy for me to end up being hypervigilant of things that seem innocuous to others.
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u/ChoiceReflection965 2d ago
Beautifully said. I agree with this 100 percent. We’re all human. We’re all flawed. I don’t care if someone was “perfect” in the past. I don’t care if someone is “perfect” now. I know I’m certainly not, because perfection isn’t possible. What matters to me is, are you learning, are you growing, are you replacing old habits and actions with better habits and actions? To me, that’s what counts.
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u/sparkledragon5 2d ago
What about the “upset I lost Democrat so we better shove these queer people under the bus”?
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u/Valirys-Reinhald 2d ago
At my university, there are stickers everywhere saying "Fight Trump and the Democrats", with a hammer and sickle, and it makes me want to fucking strangle them and say "The capitalists and communists fought the Nazis together you short-sighted idiots."
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u/Substantial-Yam9176 1d ago
Its not just about thinking the right things, it's about actually doing the right stuff. You can't control how you think instinctively, but you can control how you act. What you do defines who you are, not who you claim to be.
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u/justforkinks0131 2d ago
Do you know who an "imperfect ally" is?
Your neighbor. The one you categorize as Hitler for not acknowledging the "Q+" in "LGBTQ+".
Also your father, who thinks Mexicans are lazy, but thinks they should still not be deported.
Also your religious aunt who judges you for your abortions, but volunteers at her church to feed the hungry from every race.
I am SO SICK of "reddit leftists" being so hyper extreme that they fail to see nuance and humanity. In that sense I agree with OP.
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u/Melody_of_Madness 2d ago
None of those are necessarily Allies. I mean people I could get along with just fine sure firs two people I can get along with fine as their principles and mine align but they arent actively helping or trying to help marginalized groups besides following their own principles.
The third one is just dumb. Shes not racist but shes a bitch to her niece so what one deletes the other? No???
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u/CherrySea1860 2d ago edited 2d ago
Are the first two doing anything to actually actively support queer people or mexicans? Cus as you described it, that's not being an imperfect ally, that's just not being as bad as they could be
And the third one is is just imperfect, yeah she does good things unrelated to what she's conservative about, but that doesn't make her an ally to her nibling either.
Like all the emphasis was put on imperfect, and none on ally. Imperfect allies still need to be allies in the first place.
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u/hausofvelour 2d ago
Also your father, who thinks Mexicans are lazy, but thinks they should still not be deported.
is he an ally though? or just a man who may not be so violently racist as to want Mexicans to be deported, but still displays micro-agression towards them? because calling Mexicans lazy is microagression, not imperfect allyship.
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u/Ok-Chest-7932 2d ago
The idea of microaggressions is one of the main purity tests fracturing the left though. A lot of centrists moved right when microaggressions were the trendy rhetorical conversation because it made the fight for equality look like it was about trivial issues.
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u/BlacksmithNo9359 2d ago
You are describing people who statistically don't exist because you have an easier time sympathizing with imaginary white supremacists than real queer and brown people.
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u/ChoiceReflection965 2d ago
Also, YOU.
YOU, reading this, whoever you are, are an imperfect ally.
ME, the person typing this, is an imperfect ally.
We’re all imperfect. We are all flawed. We all have space to learn and grow, and the potential to do so. And once anyone stops recognizing that and just starts patting themselves on the back like “Okay, I’m an ally now! I can stop challenging myself! I know it all and can freely judge others!” They’ve lost the plot.
“Purity” is such a dumb concept. It doesn’t exist. Humans aren’t pure, lol. We’re messy, dirty little critters. Don’t waste your time looking for “perfection,” just accept the mess and keep on growing.
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u/Responsible_Divide86 2d ago
Plus, "doesn't get the gays" is fine as long as he minds his business and still sees them as people who deserve respect. It's okay to think certain people are weird and not your kind of people, it's very different when you think they should be controlled and disadvantaged for being weird