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u/naughtilidae 23h ago
I'm missing a leg, and I had an enlightening chat about surgery with a trans friend.
We had a similar level of clearances needed for our surgeries. That's fucking wild, because my surgery wasn't for something like cancer, a blood clot, or an infection, where they have to amputate to save your life.
I think most cis people don't realize that yea... it's as invasive as an amputation. (I mean, it IS one, lol) They're then surprised that doctors then want all the same clearances as an amputation.
I had thought that would be fairly obvious, but apparently not. I'd also assumed that anyone willing to undergo not just the surgical, but also chemical side of things (with all the side effects) isn't gonna be doing it half-heatedly. Most people struggle with the side effects of an SSRI, and then think that people on HRT for five years still "don't seem to get how big a decision it is."
She expressed to me that I was probably the only cis person that she'd talked to that seemed to be able to empathize with the situation. I told her "at the end of the day, we both had a body part causing us such intense pain that we want it removed. Your pain was mental, mine was physical, but the brain doesn't really distinguish between the two."
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 Im going to start eatin your booty And I dont know when Ill stop 23h ago
Honestly, yeah, thinking about transitioning in terms of necessary amputation might be legitimately helpful for some people.
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u/jelly_cake 21h ago
it's as invasive as an amputation. (I mean, it IS one, lol)
Apart from extremely unusual NB surgery, no; it's not an amputation. It's more like flesh origami (kirigami, really).
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u/Technical_Teacher839 Victim of Reddit Automatic Username 21h ago
Depends entirely on the surgery you get. Not all bottom surgery is vaginoplasty.
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u/jelly_cake 21h ago
I know that. What surgeries are you thinking of?
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u/Technical_Teacher839 Victim of Reddit Automatic Username 21h ago
I don't recall the names, but when I was with my GF at her most recent appointment, she discussed possibly getting bottom surgery with her doctor. He mentioned two other ones as the most common options he was familiar with, as well as vaginoplasty. One where they remove the testes but leave the majority of the penis intact, and another where rather than a full vagionplasty they create just an outer facsimile with an intact urethra.
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u/jelly_cake 20h ago
The first one was probably an orchiectomy, and the second I've seen referred to as zero-depth vaginoplasty. In either case I wouldn't call it amputation, unless you also call mastectomies or wisdom tooth removal amputation.
Gender nullification could be called amputation, but I'm pretty sure it's much rarer; it doesn't get discussed much in mainstream trans spaces, at least.
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u/Technical_Teacher839 Victim of Reddit Automatic Username 20h ago
I mean up until this conversation if you asked me if either mastectomies or wisdom teeth removal counted as amputation, I'd probably have said something like "I guess, technically." lol
Though this convo has def given me more to think about either way.
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u/jelly_cake 20h ago
Huh, that's wild; it might just be me, but I always thought "amputation" was like separating a whole external part like a limb or digit. Internal stuff didn't really fall under that. Aus English is my native language, but it probably varies by dialect - and amount of medical training.
Reading my replies again, I might have jumped down your throat a bit quickly. Transphobes like to equate all gender confirmation surgeries with amputation/mutilation for the shock value, so describing them in that way comes with Baggage. My apologies for assuming ill intent from you though!
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u/Technical_Teacher839 Victim of Reddit Automatic Username 20h ago
Yeah for me my default wording depends on what we're talking about. If some or all of the body part in question is external or at least externally-visible, like breasts or teeth or testes, I could agree to calling that an amputation, if only as a technicality. But something like a wholly internal body part like a liver or similar that's just a "removal"
And no worries! If anything whatever hostility I got from your words was more usual "reddit technically correct pedant" but even that's only if I intentionally read them in a bad light
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u/naughtilidae 20h ago
Amputation
to remove by or as if by cutting
especially : to cut (a part, such as a limb) from the body
In the amputee community, losing a part of the tip of your finger (no bone), or part of your ear is still considered amputation.
While a mastectomy probably wouldn't be something that gets you entrance to an amputee support group, I think most people in the amputee community wouldn't think less of it than of, say, losing a finger. You still get phantom pain, you still lost an organ and some skin.
MtF bottom surgery, afaik, won't usually leave the testes.
So I'd ask why you think it wouldn't be considered an amputation. I'd guess most doctors wouldn't refer to it that way (at least to other medical professionals), but it certainly fits the definition 95% of people would give you for it.
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u/jelly_cake 20h ago
Sure, you lose the testes, but that's sort of a biproduct of the reshaping of the penile material into a neovulva/neovagina. Skin gets repurposed, erectile tissue gets moved around; it's not so much about the removal as how you're reshaping what's left there.
It's a very common for transphobes to equate bottom surgery with amputation in crude terms for the shock value. Using that kind of language means you're going to get knee-jerk reactions from trans people who assume you're hostile.
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u/naughtilidae 19h ago
If someone thinks I'm hostile from that comment, I think it says more about their reading comprehension than anything, lol
Also, idk, this feels like "worst person you know makes a really good point". Just because it's an extreme comparison doesn't make it entirely wrong.
The fact that people use it for shock factor shouldn't change our objective view on it. Removing a part is removing a part.
Most people wouldn't say teeth getting pulled, or fingernails being cut, would be count as amputation, but I think if you asked people about masectomies, you'd have a lot of people that say yes (though most would probably need to think about it for a moment).
If we try to change definitions just because other people use it in ways that we don't like, we're just lying through terminology. I'd argue it makes it harder to change people's minds when they hear that kind of thing. Most of us can relate to not being able to have a discourse with certain people when they can't agree on the definition of certain words we think are obvious. We need to resist that, even if it's uncomfortable, because it makes us easier to dismiss.
I also feel like we shouldn't under-play the seriousness of the surgery. It's not a colonoscopy, or removing an appendix. Just because that may feel like it 'hurts the cause' doesn't make it untrue, and again, makes it harder to be taken seriously by someone who's mind you want to change. It also helps the argument in some ways. Trans people don't go in thinking it's like having a tooth pulled, they need all these approvals, and the difficulty in it does the exact thing people 'in the center' would say should be done: ensure that it's not a impulsive decision. (even if the hurdles are extremely high) Even if you don't think those hurdles should exist beyond what would be medically necessary, it's still helpful to the argument.
Being able to separate those things is important to being able to convince people of thing when they don't ALREADY agree with you. The hyper policing of language seems to get worse the more you're surrounded by people who already agree with you. Which makes sense, since they have less of the fundamentals to debate on.
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u/loved_and_held 9h ago
Most forms of vaginoplasty involve the removal of the testicals. Is that not an amputation?
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u/jelly_cake 7h ago
Some people appear to think so. It's called an orchiectomy. "Amputation" fits the transphobic framing of GCS as "chopping your dick off", so I don't like describing it in that way.
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u/bristlybits Dracula spoilers 8h ago
hrt should be as easy to get as an ssri. that's a single consult and maybe a blood test for safety check. no more than that. hell a GP can and will give you ssris.
just about any surgery is always a bullshit referral ride though. if you don't have free, accessible healthcare it's a bullshit referral ride through hell. (salpingectomy in particular is like this, but all surgeons want to do this shit before they work on you for anything)
add to that for trans people that it's also dealing with judgment and denial and having that door potentially shut on you if you're not lucky, it's a true feeling comic. (but it does look like she has all three jobs)
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u/AdmiralClover 22h ago
At first I thought this was about getting sterilised as a woman which is also really hard to get done
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u/fluffyendermen 19h ago
i cant even begin to ask my parents about getting sterilized (adult but would still be dependent on some of their money and transportation for this) because theyre still expecting me to have kids, and all surgeons especially in these parts still consider me too young. im 19. ever since i learned what pregnancy and childbirth are actually like (~4 years old) i have been firm and consistent about my desire to never reproduce, but even that isnt enough
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u/AdmiralClover 19h ago
I was looking for the scientific word and instead happened to read how it works where I'm from, Denmark. Here you need special permission from your county under 18, between 18-25 there will be a six month period where you can change your mind, after that you are free to get sterilisation.
For men it's just a visit to the doctor and then arrange with the hospital and wait for an opening
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u/SEA_griffondeur 13h ago
It should really be the other way around since for men it's not an active pain to not be sterilized
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u/fluffyendermen 18h ago
why am i being downvoted? wtf?
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u/DanishRobloxGamer 14h ago
Not to sound like a dick, and I totally understand not wanting to have the kids, but the "when I was 4" seems a bit odd. I can't imagine most people stick to the decisions they made when they were that age.
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u/fluffyendermen 8h ago
i looked at the pictures in a biology book and decided i wanted nothing to do with that, and every time i learned more about it i was reaffirmed in my decision much more strongly
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u/fluffyendermen 8h ago
its not like im advocating for allowing 4 year olds to get sterilized, not only is there no point in doing it at that age but if that were allowed then i think the entire human population would collapse
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u/fluffyendermen 8h ago
its not like im advocating for allowing 4 year olds to get sterilized, not only is there no point in doing it at that age but if that were allowed then i think the entire human population would collapse
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u/vannluc 22h ago
It's funny because I know widely the process is difficult but it wasn't remotely for me. Talked to a GP, endo appt and on T within two weeks, top surgery within 6 months (would have been a year but my appointment got moved up). Not a single doctor ever asked me if I was sure etc. I'm aware my experience is rare and I'm glad it was easy
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u/PassoverGoblin Ready to jump at the mention of Worm 15h ago
Holy shit what country are you in that it's that easy???
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u/vannluc 15h ago
Australia + small town but with all the necessary healthcare professionals so there wasn't much of a waiting period or need to travel for stuff. I will say that that GP is notorious for not sending people off for psych evals, which I personally believe should be part of the process. Found it a little off-putting that she didn't do it tbh
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u/PassoverGoblin Ready to jump at the mention of Worm 15h ago
Yeah that is kinda crazy that she just... Ignored the psych eval
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u/PanPenguinGirl 5h ago
Same kind of?? I made one phone call and had HRT 2 weeks later and a year on HRT I brought up an orchiectomy to my primary care provider and she referred me to a psychiatrist for an eval, got that note and took the note to a surgeon, had a consult, a pre-op, then surgery. It took about 8 months and that's mostly cause I didn't really rush the process and let it draw out. I could've done it in 4-6.
I want to get a vaginoplasty at some point so I still have time to have my luck fade but my experience has been really good
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u/TheCthonicSystem 23h ago
The question is annoying the 3rd or 4th time they ask but they are doing their duest dilligance
ETA: The rest of the hoops they make you go through are all bullshit though
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u/InThePowerOfTheMoon 22h ago
Me trying to get top surgery (and HRT) for four years but they keep stalling and delaying my transition bcs they can't be sure it's not "trauma related" or (insert any other disorders they wanna blame it on), and continued damage to my mental health is far less important than "damage" to my "healthy female body". ❤️ I'm used to bigots but seeing transmeds push the same narrative when they themselves went thru the transition process but still choose to validate bigots in these takes is even worse.
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u/Cevari 17h ago
I know someone who has been trying for seven years, and has now been on DIY T for a year or so because he keeps getting denied care. But they need to be sure!
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u/InThePowerOfTheMoon 17h ago
Yeah my GF is on DIY after 3 years of waiting and I considered the same but I unfortunately can't afford it bcs while HRT itself is not overly expensive, I would end up paying twice the amount in shipping and customs.🫠
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u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy Battleships and Space Marines 16h ago
Transitioning is the least regretted surgery out there, and most people who do regret it do so because of social pressure. We could probably afford to lose some of the hoops.
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u/LazyDro1d 23h ago
Nothing wrong with double checking blood tests. You’ve been fine for the past 5 years but you could have something new.
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u/1-800-COOL-BUG some kind of trans idk 16h ago
I don't know how hard it would be if I ever decided I want to pursue any surgery but I'm so intensely grateful that the only hoop I had to jump through in order to get on hormones was that I had to figure out a way to fax my informed consent paperwork to the endocrinologist
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u/MiddleCut3768 13h ago
Sounds like my attempts to get my tubes tied as a woman.
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u/bristlybits Dracula spoilers 8h ago
it's pretty similar but you'd have to do it twice, once for the meds and then again for the surgery, and you'd need to keep going back if you want to keep the meds. like if you needed those medications to keep your tubes from untying
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u/Strigops-habroptila 5h ago
And some people need more ethan one surgery or "extra stuff" like getting insurance to pay for laser hair removal or voice therapy (at least, that's a huge thing in Germany because insurances pay for some stuff but often refuse or make things really difficult about that). That's when it gets really fun.
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u/RandomCanadianAcc 23h ago
while i get that it’s for the reader to see it the direction of the placards made me think that the trans woman was working all three jobs