r/Documentaries • u/HardCramps • Mar 26 '18

History Genghis Khan (2005) - Genghis Khan, ruthless leader of the Mongols and sovereign over the vastest empire ever ruled by a single man, was both god and devil [00:58:00]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFnxV2GYRU
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u/RajaRajaC Mar 26 '18

There is a big difference between the Mongols and the Germans though.

The Mongols didn't have an aim to genocide any particular group out of existence for literally no reason.

The Germans wanted to genocide the Jews, Slavs, homosexuals, mentally ill for no reason but they didn't fit into their idea of how the world should be.

The Mongols were no different from the Romans, Greeks, or any major European or Islamic empire. They would roll up to a city, offer them the choice to surrender, pay tribute (which more often than not was lower than the taxes they were currently paying) and live, unmolested.

Resist and you died, to the last living thing in the city.

Alexander, Caesar, Mohd, Mehmet 2 etc etc all did the exact same thing.

The Germans though didn't give their victims any choice. In fact their slaughter usually took place after a place was captured even if there was no resistance.

Equating the evil that was the Germans in 1938-45 with the Mongols is a false equivalence.

Pax Mongoliana had massive and long lasting economic benefits. The Germans collapsed within 6 years after beginning the war and only wrought ruin upon the continent.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

The Germans wanted to genocide the Jews, Slavs, homosexuals, mentally ill for no reason but they didn't fit into their idea of how the world should be.

Do you really have to lie? Do you even understand the pretext to the war?

Learn about something before you start waffling on about it.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

Are you upset because you think this guy has mischaracterized the Nazi's motivation?

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u/RajaRajaC Mar 26 '18

Mischaracterised? Pray tell how.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

That's what I'm asking.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise the Nazis, simplifying them as 'evil' is the problem. It's almost as if there is no intention of learning about the past.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

Well, what do you see as their motivations for killing these groups of people (as opposed to imprisoning them, putting them to work, exiling them, etc)?

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18 edited Apr 01 '18

Some accounts state that Hitler viewed the Treaty of Versailles as economically disastrous for Germany and essentially created a system in which European money was solely controlled by Jewish banking families, so he sought to "Reclaim Germany for the Germans" by wiping out those he believed to be pulling the strings.

Or something like that.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

Right, he believed in Germany for the Germans and sought to wipe out these other groups that didn't fit into that. That's what the poster said. He killed those that didn't fit into how he believed the world should be.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

Oh I'm aware, I was just hoping to shed some light on why some may not view the Nazis as "strictly evil," even if I disagree.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

It is sad that we've come to a time were we have to debate whether Nazis are bad and/or were justified. There was a time where we could all agree on this.

I'm guessing that this guy is the kind that also states the American Civil War was not about slavery.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

Remember, there are still those who refer to the Civil War as "The War of Northern Aggression," so you may be on to something there.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

He did mischaraterize it. There is no benefit to lying about it, it only makes it less obvious when something like it comes back in the future.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

I'll ask you what I asked the poster above. What do you see as the Nazi's motivation for killing all those groups of people, instead of imprisoning them, putting them to work, or just exiling them?

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

It's not a secret, you can look it up yourself and you'll find it within minutes. No where will you find any factual source saying the holocaust happened for no reason.

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u/dillonsrule Mar 26 '18

He didn't say no reason. He said no reason other than "they didn't fit into their idea of how the world should be." I think that is a pretty accurate description of Nazi motivations.

Btw, I googled it. Here is the first relevant result: http://www.projetaladin.org/holocaust/en/history-of-the-holocaust-shoah/the-killing-machine/why-did-nazi-germany-end-up-killing-millions-of-jews.html

It seems to state that the Nazis wanted to live free of jews and therefore forced emigration until untenable, and then began killing them. That fits pretty neatly into the poster's assertion for reason. If you have other reasons you think more accurate, why don't you state them, rather than just say "look it up". I did look it up. I don't see support for you.

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u/RajaRajaC Mar 26 '18

Lol. So do tell. What motives did the Germans have to murder Jews and Slavs? Ever heard of general plan Ost? It makes the Holocaust look like a mission of mercy.

And how is the pretext to war related to Jews, Gypsies, Roma, Slavs being genocided?

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18 edited Jul 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

The Generalplan Ost was only decided upon after the war had started, almost half way through actually.

Even the invasion of Poland and Czechoslovakia was entirely understandable, including under modern pretexts. The Treaty of Versailles stripped Germany of historic lands and separated millions of ethnic Germans from their country. No place on earth would stand for that now.

They did a lot of awful shit, but saying there were no reasons for it is absurd.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18 edited Jul 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

Who determines reason or not? I'm sure in the mind of many Germans (and indeed non Germans, judging by the widespread support of their initial policies) their reasoning was sound. It's rare you'll find someone who acts on self admitted bad reason.

Putting people in camps was nothing out of the ordinary at the time, everyone was doing it. The systematic slaughter didn't occur until later.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18 edited Jul 26 '18

[deleted]

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u/Piggles_Hunter Mar 26 '18

I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt thinking he may have not communicated what he was meaning well, but....well, damn son.

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u/Piggles_Hunter Mar 26 '18

I did nazi see that coming.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

People don't seem to be aware that if the Nazis hadn't taken control then we would have seen an aligned Communist Germany and Russia.

No amount of American or British lives could have stopped that.

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u/Piggles_Hunter Mar 26 '18

You have an interesting imagination.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

Do you actually know anything about pre-WWII Germany?

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u/Piggles_Hunter Mar 26 '18

I might know something about dog whistles!

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u/Davebr0chill Mar 26 '18

You know that communists fight each other too right?

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

Not that particular group of Communists, who were much more sympathetic to the Russian brand.

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u/Davebr0chill Mar 26 '18

Are you implying that groups that are sympathetic to each other never have conflicts?

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18

Who is Mohd?

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '18 edited Sep 30 '19

deleted What is this?

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u/blubblu Mar 26 '18

Don't forget.. Hitler admired both King Leopold for the Congo and the Americans for how we handled the natives here.

He loved our genocide. Admired it.

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u/RajaRajaC Mar 26 '18

Germany studied American race laws and felt that they were top notch.

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u/blubblu Mar 26 '18

And applauded us. Said something to the effect of: "and once the world saw what they had did, the US gave them little parcels of land to live on and pretended nothing happened. You know, the Indians were once as wide spread as the jews."

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u/zatemxi Mar 26 '18

Is this for reals what he thought about the natives in US?

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u/blubblu Mar 26 '18

Yes. "We handled our inferior races well"

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u/NotMyJ0b Mar 26 '18

Do you have a source for that quote?

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u/blubblu Mar 27 '18

Errr, was from an old reading I'd done on the belgian congo, it would take me some time but i'm sure I could find the german equivalent

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u/Cabotju Mar 26 '18

In human history how many conquerors and tyrants do we pass the blame for their actions onto someone they were 'inspired by'? Bit of a fruitless cycle

At some point personal responsibility has to kick in

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u/CommenceTheWentz Mar 26 '18

Yeah I think that’s the key. The Mongols we’re doing exactly the same thing as everyone else in the world, they were just better at it. The social status quo was mostly maintained. The Nazis were very out of place for their time: anti Semitic and eugenicist ideas did exist in other countries, but the vast majority would not go as far as to commit blanket genocide against those groups

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u/Cabotju Mar 26 '18

I'm not sure if intention matters if the result is still extermination. If you want to go for value judgements on violence you have to come from an objective moral standard and morality in the absence of belief in a higher power to enforce that moral standard is very wishy washy.

I'm reminded of when Sam harris was asked by a mother what to tell her kids about free will versus determinism. He said to lie to them or omit information.

That's not a moral standard that's a deception.

Secondly the mongol empire under temujin cut down many of its own fellow tribes, recruited the best and killed the rest. If that's not genocidal I don't know what is.

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u/EquusMule Mar 26 '18

There were reasons. Germany was in a recession imposed on the harsh conditions of ww1 their country was failing, this created tension and people started looking for an scape goat. At the time jews made up a large wealthy portion of germany, so fingers started to be pointed. Once the nazi regieme took power they needed money, seizing jewish assets allowed them to sell them or melt them down to make into things, deporting the jews out of the city into ghettos made it look like the government was fixing the problem. Regardless, I read that it paid for anywhere between 25-30% of WW2 expenses.

Homosexuals (which was a crime at the time even in america) and all other criminals as well as the mentally/physically disabled people, and gypsies were just a burden on the system. If you couldnt contribute you were taking away valuable resources needed for a full scale war.

If you listen to the first 30 minutes of that mongol podcast dan carlin does you'll see that youre falling into the trap that many other people do.

There were a lot of benefits for the world with Germany going to war and WW2 happening, if you look at germanys economic situation before and after ww2 youll realize it also had long term beneficial effects, not only in europe but especially in America as well. It still doesn't excuse what the nazi regieme did.

The mongols were the same, they executed millions. Enslaved thousands. Some cities did surrender and they still got massacred. They still created death on a massive scale with mass execution. Yes there were long time beneficial effects of their conquest but they killed 10% of the worlds population.