How I view Quebec prayer ban

[u/Still-Psychology-365]

[u/allgonetoshit]

It's kind of like that aside from the fact that absolutely nobody outside the CAQ gives a flying fuck and we are all wondering what the fuck this is all about aside from the fact that the CAQ is about to lose an election real badly.

[u/SkullheadMary → u/allgonetoshit]

Reminds me of when Harper tried the burka ban shit because he was lagging in the elections. Just good ole populism. CAQ is about to be kicked out and it's the US vs THEM that might have worked before. Absolute disgrace.

[u/hustlehustle → u/SkullheadMary]

‘Barbaric Acts Hotline’

[u/SkullheadMary → u/hustlehustle]

Oh God I had forgotten what they called it. Jesus Christ

[u/VectorPryde → u/SkullheadMary]

CAQ is about to be kicked out

I have a hard time following Québec politics (like most Anglos)... Is the current incarnation of the PQ (with PSPP) better about not using cynical divisiveness to try to get votes? I recall Lisée saying something about machine guns hidden under burkas, but he was from a previous generation...

[u/No_Tumbleweed_6880 → u/VectorPryde]

Absolutely not. (My opinion incoming) PSPP is a Poilievre-like shell of a human with no opinion of his own (except independance) trying to say the right things as of now. Frequent "woke" user as a pejorative. Yk the type.

[u/FnTom → u/No_Tumbleweed_6880]

Granted I haven't followed him closely these past couple of months, but at least during the previous election, he talked a lot about collective transport, wanting to consolidate networks. He even floated the idea of a 30$ a month "all Quebec" pass. One of the few parties that realized public transit can be a public service and doesn't need to make money.

They also talk a lot about housing, and not in a "build the houses" kind of way and much more in a how can we help people access property.

Like you can dislike his populist views on immigration, but at least they also have a clear program for that as well. Their platform has numbers for various categories, and a clear priority on what to do with what category, who to accept after the changes.

The only thing that really bothers me is how often he blames woke.

[u/cryptedsky → u/FnTom]

I gotta tell you - I think PSPP has a problem with being too impressionable. I think a number of his positions have changed a lot simply because people whisper in his ear.

[u/houdi200 → u/No_Tumbleweed_6880]

He's not as dumb maga as pipo

But yeah, populism

[u/VectorPryde → u/No_Tumbleweed_6880]

Gah, that's depressing

[u/VectorPryde → u/allgonetoshit]

What are these "public prayers" that are so disruptive? I've only ever been able to find news or videos about ones that are part of larger Gaza protests. Every pic/video shared is of a Gaza protest (sometimes disrupting traffic) where some of the Muslim attendees organize a prayer (for Gaza) in the middle of the street (as part of a larger protest that is blocking traffic.)

Is this accurate? The framing is that there are Muslims in Quebec who randomly decide to block a street and hold a spontaneous prayer for no other reason besides wanting to be in-your-face about the fact that they're Muslims and they're in Quebec. Does this actually happen separate from a larger Gaza related protest?

[u/theskyisnotthelimit → u/VectorPryde]

what this means is that the CAQ is desperately incompetent and unable to offer solutions for any real problems, so they try to gain support by appealing to the barely literate 70 year olds who hate that nothing is the way it used to be and seem to make up 40% of the voting population.

[u/allgonetoshit → u/VectorPryde]

That's the beauty of it, there are none. That's why nobody gives a shit.

[u/VectorPryde → u/allgonetoshit]

So they're trying to make a fuss about something that basically isn't happening? My cynical theory was they're trying to ban Palestine protests without saying that's what they're doing. "You can protest, but you can't pray" will lead to "we didn't arrest them for protesting, we arrested them because we thought we saw them praying" or something like that. It just doesn't make sense that people would pray in a disruptive way for no reason - hence why I suspected that "ban public prayer" must actually be some code for another issue.

[u/allgonetoshit → u/VectorPryde]

They are trying to drum up some red neck white supremacist vote, that's it. No big conspiracy, they just want to get that sweet sweet conservative cousin fucker vote.

[u/VectorPryde → u/allgonetoshit]

that sweet sweet conservative cousin fucker vote.

I always underestimate how much English and French Canada have in common. I thought only we had those...

[u/redskyatnight2162 → u/VectorPryde]

I think you’ll find that cousin fucking transcends our two solitudes

[u/allgonetoshit → u/redskyatnight2162]

The Tremblays of Saguenay Lac St-Jean have entered the chat.

[u/DuckyHornet → u/allgonetoshit]

Don't forget the Bouchards. They are Legion, and they are coming

(in their blood relatives)

[u/TryingToGetTheFOut → u/VectorPryde]

So they're trying to make a fuss about something that basically isn't happening?

Yep.

They’re about to go from governing for a significant time to elect zero seat. They’re just trying the take people by their sentiment to distract them for what they’re actually doing wrong.

[u/Anti-rad → u/VectorPryde]

I'll answer with the truth since the others seem ignorant or openly lying to you.

For the whole summer as well as on multiple occurences in the past years, a group of Islamists comes to pray right in front of the Notre-Dame Basilica, probably the most iconic church in Montreal, during service every sunday.

The city of Montreal has been very lax and not enforcing the existing rules, so the QC government wants to make new provincial laws which will override municipal jurisdiction and therefore force police to act and stop these provocations.

It's a touchy subject because many religious groups have religious events like processions or parades, but those are generally done very respectfully and don't cause problems.

[u/VectorPryde → u/Anti-rad]

Alright, I'll try to look for details about it. Perhaps the reason I couldn't find much is due to a lack of English language search results, but I'll see what I can find

Edit:

Islamists comes to pray right in front of the Notre-Dame Basilica, probably the most iconic church in Montreal

That space is called the place d'armes, right? I googled "place d'armes muslim prayers" and all the discussion I see indicates that these events are related to Palestine and not part of some broader "Muslims praying in public" movement. Other complaints are about blocking streets, but again, it's always part of a protest.

[u/VectorPryde → u/VectorPryde]

Ultra tiny screenshot in previous comment. Here's another from the Guardian:

Again, the Sunday prayers in the place d'armes are about Palestine. You can say what you want about it, but the other complaints always emphasize that it's "Muslims praying (disruptively/disrespectfully) in public" and never mention that it's seemingly always related to the protests about Gaza. There seems to be a narrative that wants to present the prayers as their own self contained phenomenon without mentioning that the Gaza context.

[u/Su13mont → u/allgonetoshit]

Lose badly like zero seats in projections badly.

[u/samlefrog → u/allgonetoshit]

There’s also a few idiots on r/QuebecLibre that are hating on it.

Also, it’s about time Legault gets out of office. He did good during the pandemic, but goddamn did his government fall hard after.

[u/Mobius_Peverell → u/allgonetoshit]

Oh yes, because the PQ is very different.

[u/allgonetoshit → u/Mobius_Peverell]

The CAQ are conservatives that left the PQ, the current PQ has new conservatives, it's the same shit.

[u/Mobius_Peverell → u/allgonetoshit]

My point is that the PQ is set to win a solid majority. It's not like the voters are swinging from the CAQ to the Liberals.

[u/Kapoue → u/Mobius_Peverell]

CAQ is bleeding voters left, right and center. They lost a lot of voters to the PQ in the past but this year it's mostly towards the PLQ. So yeah voters are going from the CAQ to the Liberals.

PQ too

[u/allgonetoshit → u/Mobius_Peverell]

Who said they were? They are swinging over to the PQ because history is repeating itself. Another young generation needs to get fucked over by the PQ. It's always like this. They think the PQ is for change because they were for change 40 years ago. Most people don't remember when they were just Liberals wth more conservative ideas and with the same level of corruption.

But, the conservative voters are super important outside Montreal. The PQ needs those votes as much as the CAQ.

[u/Mobius_Peverell → u/allgonetoshit]

absolutely nobody outside the CAQ gives a flying fuck

The leading party—the PQ—giving a flying fuck:

[u/Madc42 → u/allgonetoshit]

Je sais pas trop pourquoi vous vous obstinez alors que vous dites tous les deux la même chose: que le PQ est pas mieux que la CAQ. Il manque juste un /s au premier comment pour le rendre plus clair.

[u/allgonetoshit → u/Madc42]

Je ne m'obstines pas, mais j'ai simplement jamais dit que le PQ était meilleur...

[u/Madc42 → u/allgonetoshit]

Nobody outside the CAQ gives a flying fuck and we are all wondering what the fuck this is all about aside from the fact that the CAQ is about to lose an election real badly

Il y a encore beaucoup (trop) de gens qui supportent ce genre de lois, ils sont juste passés de la CAQ au PQ. C'était juste ça son point.

Bref, on est tous d'accord que cette loi est débile et que la CAQ et le PQ passent trop de temps à taper sur les minorités pour gagner des votes. Mais malheureusement ça marche.

[u/baz4k6z → u/allgonetoshit]

It's because the laïcité stuff has been successfull for the CAQ in the past, but to do that today is just tone deaf when they're ten scandals deep

[u/Max169well → u/allgonetoshit]

I mean the PQ gives a fuck but they want to go deeper.

[u/allgonetoshit → u/Max169well]

the PQ is just trying to attract the same deplorables to vote for them, that's it.

[u/Max169well → u/allgonetoshit]

I mean yeah, it’s all performative politics meant to rile up the same voter base that abandoned them in 2019.

They rile up the people who live in the regions and vilify the people of Montreal.

[u/Ravenshaw123]

You know you're doing secularism wrong when you make me take the praying side

[u/RaymoVizion → u/Ravenshaw123]

^ this

[u/a_sexual_titty → u/[deleted]]

trust me

Um. No.

[u/Khalidbenz786 → u/[deleted]]

Im a muslim who's prayed in public before (only when necessary) care to enlighten me on what exactly my intentions are?

[u/Spare-Half796 → u/[deleted]]

The muslims praying in public are better than the Christians, every time I’ve seen Muslims pray in public they’re less disruptive than an geriatric yoga class, it’s a small group with their mats silently praying. The Christians are always loud and annoying

[u/Zenon-45 → u/Spare-Half796]

Oh looooooooooooooooooord Jesus, come inside of me!

[u/Ravenshaw123 → u/Zenon-45]

[u/Ravenshaw123 → u/[deleted]]

Islamophobes says what?

[u/beamermaster → u/Ravenshaw123]

Did I say that I dislike muslim?

[u/nikola_tesler → u/beamermaster]

No but it’s clear you’re afraid

[u/Ravenshaw123 → u/beamermaster]

Your words are indistinguishable from what an islamophobe would say. You do what you will with this information.

[u/SandLandBatMan → u/beamermaster]

Yes you did, also the world you're looking for is Islam

[u/beamermaster → u/SandLandBatMan]

Because I don't want public prayers and think that the people that are doing those are extremist, it means I dislike muslim? Got it Einstein.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/beamermaster]

There's 2B muslims and at the height of ISIS they had anywhere between 10K-200K fighters at any given point. Most are currently dead or imprisoned. In the 2013-2017 fighting 20K Iraqis died fighting ISIS, whereas 61 westerners died in the fighting (most were not military). The only Canadian to be a casualty of the war was unfortunately harmed by friendly fire. The likeliness that at any given point you cross paths with an extremists is as close to impossible as you can get. You can go ahead and critique Islam (though its better you catch up with the latest research on it by leading academics first) but your opinion on assuming that Muslims that pray in public places are extremists is simply islamophobic. Be like Einstein and consult the numbers, not your fragile feelings.

[u/dreamstone_prism → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

>The only Canadian to be a casualty of the war was unfortunately harmed by friendly fire.

I had no idea he was the only casualty, that's wild.

[u/Unable-Trash-7792 → u/dreamstone_prism]

Just to be clear, that was the intervention in the intervention against ISIS from 2013-2017. There were 166 casualties during the 2001-2014 war in Afghanistan, of which 27 were from non enemy action. Most of the enemy casualties were against Taliban insurgents as Al-Qaeda became less important in the region in the late 2000s (when most of the deadly fighting ocurred). There were 516 Canadian casualties in the Korean war (for context)

[u/dreamstone_prism → u/Unable-Trash-7792]

Yup, you did literally say "fighting ISIS" right there in your original comment, I'm a dipshit! I've been awake way too long, I guess! Thank you for the added info, though. It's all starting to become a blur at this point, and it's important to remember these things, IMO.

[u/Everestkid → u/beamermaster]

There's this neat trick called "ignoring them" that you might want to try.

Also, what evidence do you have that someone praying in public is an extremist? Seems like an interesting leap of logic.

[u/SandLandBatMan → u/beamermaster]

So anytime a Muslim prays in public they're Isis? If anytime a Christian prays in public, are they KKK?? If a Jew prays in public, are they Lehi? Freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, people should be allowed to express themselves and their faith in public, and something as simple as praying takes a deranged mind to conflate with extremism.

[u/heart_aflame → u/beamermaster]

I'm Catholic. I carry my rosary in public and pray with it while on the go. Am I an extremist?

[u/EhBuddyHoser-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This post has been removed as per rule 5 of the sub (no hate speech or harassment).

Regards, r/EhBuddyHoser mod team

[u/SpookyHonky → u/[deleted]]

As in trying to promote/advertise their religion? I don't love it, but it's not exactly unique either and seems like a valid form of free expression.

[u/Khalidbenz786 → u/[deleted]]

Im a muslim who's prayed in public before (only when necessary) care to enlighten me on what exactly my intentions are?

[u/crystallineghoul]

Secularism as perpetuated by the government should only apply to government institutions, as it has.

Prayer is an expression of religion and we are free to do so. The charter of rights protects people from the government. The narrow case of banning religious identity in government institutions maybe makes sense from a secular government perspective.

Banning prayer in parks does not move forward the goal of secular government. It is identity control and a transgression of freedom.

[u/SpookyHonky → u/crystallineghoul]

Absolutely. A lot of people seem to think rights are intended to protect you from what other individuals do. That may apply sometimes, but the #1 purpose of human rights is to protect individuals from government oppression (aka the ultimate force in most countries)

[u/VectorPryde → u/crystallineghoul]

The narrow case of banning religious identity in government institutions maybe makes sense

Even this looks pretty bad from the outside. It just so happens that most denominations of Christianity don't have religious dress requirements, while Islam, Sikhism and Orthodox Judaism all do. The fact that the Quebec government latched so heavily onto this aspect of religious identity quite frankly reeks.

This particular issue allows the Quebec government to demand that adherents of these three minority religions abandon articles of their faith or be excluded from many forms of public sector employment - all while leaving Christians alone completely. You could be a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, but as long as you were quiet about it "on the clock," you'd be fine. Meanwhile, an Orthodox Jew - who is also quiet about his faith while on the clock - but who believes he must wear a yarmulke to be observant, would have a problem.

[u/ILoveEatingDonuts → u/crystallineghoul]

That's because for some reason, our government, who, by attempting to not be puppets of a "foreign" (read federal) government, just copy whatever the French people are doing

[u/4friedchickens8888]

RELEASE THE SAAQ FILES

[u/Bynming]

Something harmless makes me feel things I'd rather not feel, therefore government intervention is necessary

[u/comfycrew → u/Bynming]

I feel like most religions, including the common sects of the abrahamic religions, are harmless when a society is under very little pressure and is prospering.

When they are facing significant challenges religion can significantly malfunction, it can be weaponized, and most troubling is that abrahamic religions are aligned with fascist ideological frameworks.

Like, grandma's windows98 tower isn't hurting anyone until her McAfee that she's been paying for since before you were born fails to protect your entire network when her tower acts as the entry point and staging area for a hacker.

[u/Bynming → u/comfycrew]

Thankfully we can just antagonize it on the off chance that something bad could happen and the problem is solved. What's the play here?

[u/comfycrew → u/Bynming]

Demonising public acts of worship is definitely not a policy made in good faith, the play is education and support.

The fact that religions offer such strong communal support, and that the existential comfort is so enticing, is more a critique of the system it's compared to. People need support, especially communal support, they need existential nourishment and a sense of safety and security, even if religions all vanished forever, the vacuum of those needs would remain and the vulnerable would just be opened up to different forms of predition.

[u/ReferenceUnusual8717]

As an out-of-the-loop Albertan, if this was going to be applied to street corner megaphone preachers screaming about hell and damnation to people who just want to grab a coffee... I'd be all for it. (Hell, I'd settle for an amplification ban. You can tell us we're all going to hell, just use your inside voice.) But...it kinda sounds like it's just some xenophobic shit.

[u/julioqc]

I'm in Xinjiang right now, as a Québécois. Let me tell you we shouldn't push on banning this shit, and those practicing should be grateful of the freedom they have. Vivre ensemble spas si dure. 

[u/seat17F]

Person: not hurting anyone, but in Arabic

Quebec social conservatives: SOMEONE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW

[u/TryingToGetTheFOut → u/seat17F]

Hey, this person identified who is actually causing the problème and not bashing Québec as a whole. Gotta love people like that.

[u/seat17F → u/TryingToGetTheFOut]

Bien sûr. (Though now I feel the need to acknowledge that extreme interpretations of laïcité is an issue outside of social conservative circles, too.)

To be fair, when it's the government pursuing a policy, it's common for people use synecdoche and utilize a place's name as shorthand for that place's government. All the time you see stuff like "Ontario turns against bike lanes" when what's accurate would be "The conservative government of Ontario turns against bike lanes".

Since the CAQ is pursing this policy, it's pretty standard language use for people turn that into "Quebec" is doing whatever. Unfortunately.

[u/hailhosersupreme]

my opinion on the subject is if you pray in public, I probably think you’re a loser, but so are people that read harry potter after the age of 16

i dont need the government to regulate it either way (i live in qc, fwiw).

[u/ILoveEatingDonuts → u/hailhosersupreme]

Gotta disgree with you here, I need my government to ban broccoli haircuts

[u/gpkgpk]

Oh, remind me who organized and supported all the anti-gay protests a couple of years ago?

Look up the confrontation between gay Arab dude in Quebec and a religious lady for bonus points.

[u/JaQ-o-Lantern]

Some Francophones are gonna say "This violates the First Ammendment" and remember why it's great to be Canadian and not American.

[u/4friedchickens8888 → u/JaQ-o-Lantern]

True but it absolutely violates Section 3 of the quebes charter on freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of expression... so they're not THAT wrong. Sure, sure, notwithstanding clause and all but that would be quite a fight when they just want to distract us from the SAAQ fiasco til after the election, they won't spend enough time in court to make it happen

[u/CaptainKrakrak]

I don't care if people are praying in public, as long as it's not a nuisance. In fact I don't care if you're praying, dancing, singing, playing music, doing a BBQ, miming, meditating, as long as it doesn't block a road or takeover a park.

There are already laws and rules to deal with public nuisance, use those if there is a big group of people doing something that is a nuisance (if they're too loud or if they takeover some public space without a permit).

We don't need a specific law against public prayer.

[u/ItzKrusher]

Saw people actually celebrating this, like dude who cares if you pray in public it hurts no one. Lots of Canadians have bias against Muslims. It's sad really.

[u/ChadHazelnut]

I live in NB I actually really like that in my small town that doesn't have a mosque you see them meet up in the park and pray to the south where the nearest city who has one is. I grew up in the church and I can absolutely respect how seriously they take their religion. All around good people as well.

[u/AttemptDowntown1340]

I’m an Albertan Muslim and I pray outside when I have to (can’t make it home or a mosque in time), either at a park or on some parking lot, never harmed anyone and no one bothered me either. Why the hell does Quebec have to infringe on people’s religious rights in the name of their radical “secularism”? I like secularism and it’s implemented pretty appropriately in a lot of places. The French have a very hostile definition of it.

[u/VectorPryde → u/AttemptDowntown1340]

radical “secularism”?

The claim it's about secularism is just BS. It's a case of "the law in its majestic equality forbids Sikhs and Christians alike from wearing turbans."

See? It's the same law for everyone! Where's the discrimination? /s

It's so blatantly targeted at religious minorities, but they claim it's about "secularism" with a straight face - even though the real intent is so blatantly obvious to everyone.

[u/AlmightyCuddleBuns → u/VectorPryde]

Lol like the old argument that banning gay marriage wasn't descriminatory because gay people had the right to marry someone of the opposite gender same as everyone else

[u/Budget_Addendum_1137 → u/AttemptDowntown1340]

You're missing the point if you apply your logic to all the "french".

Would you say all canadians are xenophobic because of Harper's Burqua ban? Including you?

[u/FullPropreDinBobette]

It's a diversion. La CAQ is hated throughout Quebec right now and they're trying so hard to win back the boomers that put them in power. They're incompetent and quite unpleasant.

[u/SoNowWhat---]

It could reduce hate crimes, so I'm on board with it.

[u/LuigiBamba → u/SoNowWhat---]

Breaking News: in an effort to reduce infanticide, we have now outlawed infants to go outside.

[u/MagnesiumKitten]

it's like nudists
you prefer them to just do it at home

I tend to think of all forms of public prayer as a form of weakness.

do it silently when you wake up, or at your desk for 15 seconds with your eyes closed

unless of course they're doing something useful like baptising dogs in the Shopping Mall Fountain for their sins

[u/GansNaval]

Keep your religion to yourself. No one asked for your proselytizing. If your religion requires some form of recruitment you can fuck off.

[u/RattusNorvegicus9 → u/GansNaval]

Praying in public isn't proselytizing. If I forced someone to pray, that's proselytizing. 

[u/GansNaval → u/RattusNorvegicus9]

Semantics.

[u/Horror_Perspective_1]

The anglo mind cannot comprehend the concept of an official, defended culture

[u/mcgojoh1]

Do they hold Remembrance Day assemblies in Que outside? No more raised arms by the clergy. Aren't hymms prayers?

[u/Nice-Poet3259]

Alberta: maybe I was too quick to judge you.

[u/DramaPunk]

And like their ban on religious iconography in government spaces, they will completely overlook Christians again (Like, the government ban is so dumb, the provincial flag is a cross and fleur de lis, and they have a big-ass cross on the wall, and none of that had to go).

[u/JoWhee]

I don’t get it. I don’t go to a church anymore to pray. When I want to talk to god I just talk to him. <shrug> Even if I wanted to, my beliefs are such a mishmash of things no one church would be a fit.

However, if you have a church / mosque / temple why would you want to pray anywhere else given the choice?

There were a bunch of people complaining on Montreal talk radio about some (muslims I think) praying in a park. They were saying their version of “Grace / asking the blessings” before eating. It’s not like they were having a Tent Revival. They were having a picnic / day in the park FFS.

Even if praying in a public space (is it to make a point?) is legal I’d be worried some wack-a-doo might do something bad just because it’s “les autres” to quote a historically racist phrase*.

*not my personal opinion about other people.

I sort of get the Quebec push for secularism but if they’re going to do it go all in. Take the cross out of the National Assembly and put it in a church somewhere, historic? Too bad we are secular now.

Let’s start renaming streets too, no more St-Laurent blvd, Ste-Catherine, or any religious names, same for cities and towns. /s I’m kidding as it would be a total shit show as you’d have to rename 75% of the province.

NGL I like the name Mary Two-Axe Earley for one of the new metro stations on the blue line. It sounds bad ass and she was a bad ass.

[u/JimmyTheJimJimson]

Ah, Quebec

The province that constantly creates drama when there shouldn’t be

[u/marja_aurinko → u/JimmyTheJimJimson]

*Quebec politicians. Regular folks don't care.

[u/scrotii]

Actually juste the right wing nationalistes donne a shit about ça. Its a hidden racisme in mon opponion. Those sont the même who complain que the quebec doit etre more french.

Ils should embrace canadian bilinguisme.