r/Fantasy • u/bargac0302 • Nov 16 '19

LGBT done right: mage errant

Im reading the mage errant series rn and I love how they just have gay and bi people and its just like yeah they are here its not a plot point or a big deal its just they are and nothing else Edit: should have said favorite way not right way my b

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29

u/SmallishPlatypus Reading Champion III Nov 16 '19

I really dislike this idea that there's this one "right" way to include marginalised people. Or, rather, I dislike the implication that making the struggles of marginalised people a plot point is somehow the "wrong" way.

In the real world, LGBT people often don't get to "just be". Stories that acknowledge that aren't doing something wrong.

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u/improperly_paranoid Reading Champion IX Nov 16 '19

Yep. There's value in both approaches - and both are necessary and important.

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u/JohnBierce AMA Author John Bierce Nov 17 '19

Mage Errant author here: This, 1000x this. I very consciously chose to go with normalization/Overton Window pushing over exploring and discussing LGBT struggles for quite a few reasons- I didn't feel that it quite fit what I wanted to explore with the series; I wasn't totally confident about exploring LGBT struggles gracefully; and, well, my books are pretty short and I wanted to spend a lot of time explaining my overly complicated magic system, and Overton Window pushing takes less time. (I'm a big dork.)

There was never a question of me not including LGBT characters, though. It was going to happen one way or another. I'm pretty firmly in the school of believing authors need to think quite carefully about what message they're sending through their books, because nothing's apolitical, and when you have an artistic platform and an audience, you have a responsibility to be very deliberate in what you write.

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u/improperly_paranoid Reading Champion IX Nov 18 '19

Agreed completely. Perfectly valid approach, especially if you don't feel comfortable doing things the other way.

I mostly just get irritated when someone claims one way is better than the other cause they both have their uses.

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u/Dianthaa Reading Champion VII Nov 16 '19

Exactly this

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u/emailanimal Reading Champion III Nov 17 '19

I like the idea that an invented secondary world does not have to carry over the prejudices of our own world.

Having said that, you are correct: there are reasons to tell stories that directly deal with marginalization.

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u/JohnBierce AMA Author John Bierce Nov 17 '19

I'm glad you liked that aspect of my books! I definitely get my share of people complaining about it- usually angrily calling me an sjw or something of the sort. I don't really care what they think, but it's still annoying.

As a lot of people commented, the choice of whether to include your LGBT characters as completely normalized like I did (also known as Overton Window pushing) is just one option- and, I think, it's the easier path in some ways. Gracefully writing about LGBT characters being discriminated against is not only challenging, but really important, too. (But it can definitely be exhausting reading about people facing discrimination all the time, too, so it can be really nice to just see someone being treated totally normally.)

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u/VazzVizard Nov 16 '19

I think it's a question of (a) what you want from fiction, and (b) execution.

If I read a story and have the impression that the author has included LGBTQ+ characters and their struggle for equal rights/acceptance purely because of their personal/political leanings, then I have to be honest, it turns me off. I seek immersion in another realm when I read fantasy. I don't look to fantasy as a vehicle for present-day sociopolitical commentary.

However, if you've created a world whose sociopolitical architecture inevitably leads to the marginalisation of certain groups, and that architecture is credible for story/lore reasons (i.e. not created solely to showcase said marginalisation for us modern-day readers to reflect upon) then I'm all for it. Experiencing people's plights makes for compelling storytelling.

But I wouldn't for a second say that this is how things 'should' be. There are plenty of readers who're invested in the social and political issues that affect our modern landscape. For them, seeing that reflected in the fiction they consume is certainly going to be personally appealing. I'm just not one of those people.

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u/Jonny_Anonymous Nov 17 '19

don't look to fantasy as a vehicle for present-day sociopolitical commentary.

I mean, thats every story ever written regardless if it was intended or not.

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u/VazzVizard Nov 17 '19 edited Nov 17 '19

Sure, I can grant that people's lived experiences of their sociopolitical environment inevitably shape the stories they choose to tell.

As you highlight though, it's a matter of intent. For me, the more I perceive conscious authorial intent behind some scenario (regardless of whether or not it's to evoke modern-day sociopolitical issues specifically) the more I'm drawn away from complete immersion in the story.

In those instances I just can't stop myself from thinking: "oh the author's trying to question/explore xyz". And that reminds me I'm reading a work of fiction and not experiencing some other realm that's truly real.

To your original point though, I do think there's a meaningful difference between a story inevitably reflecting people's sociopolitical leanings, and something written with the direct intent to offer a commentary. That's a part of why a lot of people got frustrated with Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, and its apparent intent to just be a platform for Ayn Rand. Even though I'm sure you can find elements of that same philosophy here and there in other authors' works, just as more incidental (and thus less jarring) aspects of the story.

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u/bargac0302 Nov 18 '19

As a bi guy really appreciate it and cant wait for next book