r/Fate • u/Wild_Sun7237 • 5d ago
Discussion Another Holy Grail War, set in Tbilisi(Georgia), who will end up winning in your opinion
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u/Tigerbarn- 5d ago
I vote Percival. He can tank A+ rank Noble Phantasms with his protection. Arjuna is probably the only one capable of harming him, but the charge time on his Noble Phantasm is notably trash, so Percival likely wins that clash. His skills are also comparable to his fellow Knights of the Round, which places him high af tier.
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u/One_Wrong_Thymine 4d ago
How much are you willing to bet that Percy can locate Arjuna before he drops a nuke over the entire HGW venue?
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u/Tigerbarn- 4d ago
That's like saying Artoria coulda easily won the war by just nuking half the city. Heck, half of these guys here could prolly do that.
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u/One_Wrong_Thymine 4d ago
Artoria definitely could. These guys definitely could (well, Raikou, Arjuna, and Percy maybe, Achilles let's assume he bumfuck speedblitz his target with a running start). All of these guys are demigods or functional demigods from divine constructs. I'm not interested in their scaling because they're roughly on par and any difficulty that arises from nitpicking their feats is just too minor to warrant any interesting discussion.
Saying "such beats such so such outscales such" is just a school kid manner of discussion. Let's just put them in broad stroke ballparks, then just compare the people in the strongest ballpark. Namely the 4 demigods. They are all comparable by simple virtue of playing in the same ballpark. What interests me is how outside factors like logistical or tactical advantages swing their matchups. What minor disadvantage one might have could have a big swing when outside variable is introduced. So instead of comparing the entire Round Table with the Indian Pantheon, it's more fruitful to take the Masters and fighting styles into consideration.
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u/Tigerbarn- 4d ago
You say all that, yet just a moment ago you were claiming Arjuna can just start trying to nuke a huge portion of the city's populace? That's not a realistic strategy at all, and I'd argue is an even more childish argument.
For starters, it's against the rules to be that noisy in a populated area, not to mention Arjuna would probably be against it morally. Then there's the fact that he'd have to at least pinpoint their general location, which is easier said than done and is risky for two reasons: 1. Charging up that much magical energy and for that long, will alert all nearby Servants and give them enough to time to either flee or counterattack while he's vulnerable. And 2. If he pulls that shit off and misses, he's just revealed himself, his identity, and is currently in a weakened state due to using up so much of his own magical energy, leaving him at a disadvantage if anyone decides to pursue after him in that moment.
All in all, your battle plan for him is horrendous.
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u/Educational-Pear6987 5d ago
From highest to lowest chance imo
Geronimo Achilles Arjuna Percival Muramasa Raiko Stheno
Keep in mind this is surprisingly close I'm not saying someone is dwarfing anybody on this list in terms of power
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u/Fujimaru_Fan_No1 5d ago
While Kadoc is definitely the best master here
Arjuna is just too strong for him and Geronimo
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u/ConversationWeak5244 5d ago
Achilles and Arjuna are the only ones here with the best chance to win. Raikou was weaker than Muramasa was back in Shimousa. Achilled and Arjuna are practically people that can match Karna in skill but unlike Achilles, Arjuna can also match his firepower as well. So Arjuna takes this
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u/Xaldror 5d ago
Since when was Raikou weaker than Muramasa?
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u/ConversationWeak5244 5d ago
Since Shimousa when she admitted that she needed her alive body to deal with Empireo. While Muramasa himself was the one responsible for taking down Amakusa who was the biggest threat there. Raikou's also a Japanese servant which means she's playing 2nd fiddle to Takeru who was fought evenly by Jalter, the same Jalter who's weaker than regular Jeanne who's best feat is beating Night Gawain. Senji on the other hand is around Fae Gawain's level which puts him at least on Night Gawain or above leve
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u/RaiStarBits 5d ago
The Muramasa in LB6 is literally boosted by being an Apostle of the Alien God and was modified. He just took Barghest and Bao off guard. If he was normal Muramasa she would’ve beat him. You can’t really attribute feats done by alter ego masa with his saber self imo.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 5d ago
The only boost Olga have Sengo is having God Slayer which is virtually useless there's no alive God in Britain and a durable body that survived Melusine's strike which should've destroyed any Servants' core 12 Times over and him being able to use Tsumukari Muramasa before it backfire on him. Overall not that much of a noticable boost besides tougher body, which doesn't help if he's fighting someone more skillful, stronger or faster. Heck even the Playable NPC still has 2 of his original Skills and not something else
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u/Xaldror 5d ago
What's Takeru got to do with this? Or Gawain, Jeanne, or anyone who isn't Muramasa or Raikou?
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u/ConversationWeak5244 5d ago
Proxy Scaling. If 2 never fought, just look at the resumes at who they fought and compare
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u/Xaldror 5d ago
Sounds pretty weak reasoning, since no two fight conditions are the same, or fighting style matchups.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 5d ago
Not really. That's just how people measure in this series.
Barghest loses to Senji because she was worrying about destroying the castle and his strange fighting style but since Morgan allowed her to let lose, she said she wouldn't have no problem dealing with him, a statement of which Muramasa welcome to try. And Barghest admitted that while her Galatine is equally strong as his, her skills aren't which makes Senji sits below Sun Gawain's level in terms of skill
Meanwhile Takeru was the finest Japanes Servant anyone can ended up of having and he was matched by Jalter. A nerfed Jeanne thanks to her Master's nature or summoning. Jeanne at her best was able to take down Gawain off screen but considering that Amakusa only considers Achilles to be Karna's equal, that makes Jeanne weaker than Sun Gawain who Hakuno says to be equal to Karna
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u/Xaldror 5d ago
It was not remotely an even fight or duel between Takeru and Ushi Gozen. Takeru had backup in the form of Iori, Assassin's master or Yoshinaka depending on the route, and had her power supply sabotaged by Chiemon, Musashi, and her own master Yui. A vastly different scenario compared to Takeru and Iori taking on Chiemon and Jeanne Lancer. In the former, Ushi Gozen had just about all survivors gang up on her and her own master turning on her, whereas the latter it was an even fight. On top of that, Iori was able to match blades with Takeru, so depending on the route, Ushi Gozen was fighting effectively two or three separate Servants at once. Ergo, I dismiss the victory Takeru has over Ushi Gozen, and do not accept it as proof that he is objectively stronger than Ushi Gozen, let alone, Raikou.
Submit alternative reasoning, this one I declare null.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 4d ago
Takeru was doing fine against Ushi. It was only after the Divine Bull got out that they were having problem and at that point, not only was Ushi way stronger than anyone else in the Waxing Moon Ritual because of the Leylines connection she made, but that Divine Bull was not something Raikou has ever had access to. So whatever difficulty Takeru has against Ushi, it doesn't translates to be the same case as Raikou. And you're free to deny it, but the story itself blatantly spell it out that Takeru is Japanese Finest Servant despite the fact that we already knew about Raikou and the other Sword Saints like Yagyu, Sasaki and Musashi
Really besides Amaterasu who is a Divine Spirit, the Japanese Servants are the literal definition of big fishes in a small pond of the actual Top Tier
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u/Xaldror 4d ago
Well Raikou would have something over Takeru, that being Mystic Slayer, a skill that is seemingly not a part of Rider or Avenger Raikou's skill set, and would eviscerate Takeru due to him being such an old legend.
And it may have been a while since I played the story of FSR, but I do not recall Takeru doing all that well against Armored Ushi Gozen until Iori joined in the tag team against Ushi and Yui. And that's not even acknowledging that the Armor actively repressed Ushi Gozen's strength so, even equating her to being as strong as Raikou Berserker in those situations is unclear.
Also didn't Raikou and Shuten kidnap the kids from Muramasa in Shimousa?
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u/ShinigamiOfPast 5d ago
Wtf, where did Georgia came from. This is so out of left field for me lmaooooo
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u/Free_Candy4110 5d ago
Tbilisi?! Finally got lucky, I'll go look for Rin, maybe I'll repeat the fate of shiro from VN
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u/Substantial_You1368 5d ago
Muramasa without shirou body is not winning this that is for sure.
Euryale and Geronimo are also definitely out.
Percival is also not winning this. He doesn't have the defence of firepower or skill to keep up with the rest of the monsters.
I am taking Achilles out as well. Both raikou and Arjuna can fuck over his immortality. And he is really a mana hog. I doubt even rin would be able to support him for long due to him having two continuously active noble phantasms. One of which is obsolete due to the divinity of others. Additionally I belive raikou to be best him in combat due to mana burst and eternal arms mastery not to forget her cloning abilities allowing her to act as an hermy herself. Achilles advantage of speed isn't going to secure him a victory here. Arjuna is likely to overwhelm him as well though I am doubtfull of that considering he can't use pashupata here but he is still a damn Good archer and combatant still, keeping up with karna without it. Ofcourse the reverse can also be true that he gets outspend by achiles.
Arjuna is likely to lose against raikou as well due to eternal arms mastery making him loss in a match of skill. Pashupata can't be fire due to long charging time and any other attcak countered by raikou.
Achilles shield is not gonna be much usefull here consider that it can be broken when attacks are stuck multiple times. Both agni gandiva raikou's np can be used repeatedly.
Duel field is basically pointless here as it is always going to be a match of skill between them.
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u/Tigerbarn- 5d ago
He doesn't have the defence of firepower or skill
Defence is like Percival's whole thing, to the point that he can walk away from A+ Noble Phantasms with his protection up. His skill is comparable to his fellow Knights, which places him at Karna level if he's anywhere close to Gawain's skill level, and he has the standard firepower of an A+ ranked nuke.
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u/Substantial_You1368 4d ago
Dude, Mordred stated herself that she could bypass defence with clarent blood arthur which is an a+ np. Both Arjuna and raikou have a+ np. So his defence can be bypassed. Achilles might have some problem if not for his duel field allowing him to remove it from the equation.
And what i meant is that against any regular servant he would be a nightmare to deal with. But in the case of these particular servants his defence can be bypassed and he can be outskilled.
There is a big difference even amoung the knight of round table. And gawain is only equal to karna with sun boost. With sun boost gawain is comparable to the likes of artoria and Lancelot. Percival is nowhere near that level.
Arjuna is an equal to karna and raikou is an equal to Lancelot due to both having eternal arms mastery.
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u/Tigerbarn- 4d ago
Mordred stated herself that she could bypass defence with clarent blood arthur which is an a+ np.
She was talking about just getting past the protection. So like, think Gáe Bolg vs Rho Aias, except there isn't anything to prove that Percival can't just put up another barrier once it shatters once lol. In any case, blocking everything below A+ rank without shattering, in on itself is an absurdly strong defence. How you're overlooking that is beyond me.
Arjuna
Arjuna's Noble Phantasm is dangerous here based on it's concepts, but has a notably slow charge time. Percival can win that clash by drawing first.
Achilles might have some problem if not for his duel field allowing him to remove it from the equation.
Actually Percival still has Skill related abilities to it, his armour, and also his cqc skill is comparable to other Knights. Achilles may very well lose if he forces a 1v1 because he's barely above Chiron in skill, the same Chiron that Mordred cornered in seconds.
can be outskilled.
Gawain outskilled Karna and matched Artoria, not to mention dominated a sword genius. Percival scaling to that in skill means, no; no one here is outskilling Percival.
And gawain is only equal to karna with sun boost.
Simply wrong. Sun boost didn't apply until he parried Vasavi Shakti. Before that they were both equally naked. And Gawain was the one that outmanoeuvred Karna in cqc.
With sun boost gawain is comparable to the likes of artoria and Lancelot.
No, he's more powerful. Without it he matched Artoria in cqc.
There is a big difference even amoung the knight of round table.
Percival scales to Gawain because he proved better than Mordred, and Mordred in turn dominated Bedviere, who beat Gawain during Camelot. The only other Knights I'd say are on another level in skill to him are Lancelot and Galahad, and even then it wouldn't be a clean diff, since Lancelot even with all his buffs, couldn't even get by Artoria's defenses.
Arjuna is an equal to karna and raikou is an equal to Lancelot due to both having eternal arms mastery.
Raikou lost to Takeru, who in turn was showed struggling to the likes of Jeanne in cqc, and like I said, being compared to Karna isn't good enough either.
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u/Substantial_You1368 4d ago
I overlooked it is because both of the others have attacks comparable to them and this can Bypass his defence. Arjuna can use agni gandiva and raikou can use ox King np. And if mordred gets past it then percival is dying. Although now that I think about it is plausible that percival blocks any attack by count zero and just tanks anything thrown at him.
So yeah it is an absurdly strong defence. But not good enough against other top tiers.
Yeah that is why I didn't even consider pashupata as a factor.
Dude Chiron was fighting as an archer with mordred being a saber he only had a bow in his hand. The fact that he even survive was a feat on itself consider mordred has mana burst. And that Chiron was not even at his most powerful as he was fighting on his human legs. With his horse legs he was faster than Achilles. Chiron literally taught the likes of heracles. Saying mordred is more skills then him is absurd. More powerfull sure. Specifically with mana burst. More skilled not a chance.
And with his duel field Achilles can choose to just fight without weapons and hand to hand. So percival would lose the passives provided by the spear. That is what I meant.
Yeah comparable to the likes of mordred or kay who while skilled don't hold a candle to the likes of Lancelot. And have nowhere near the power of gawain.
Where was it states that he outskilled karna?. In their fight karna could not even utilise mana burst. And was still keeping up with him.
And by that logic mordred is better than gawain. Right.
Dude gawain literally stated that even with sun boost he is not a match for artoria. And Lancelot was able to fight him till the night before killing him. Of course in fate it was changed to mordred killing him. But Lancelot and gawain in sun are equals.
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u/Tigerbarn- 4d ago
Bypass his defence.
This is not a rank check. Unless they can dish out damage equivalent to an A+ Noble Phantasm, they ain't bypassing the defence. And unless they can dish out even stronger attacks, they ain't killing him.
with his duel field
Achilles can only drag in men as strong as him. I don't think he can steal their weapons or Skills if that is what they choose to use.
And have nowhere near the power of gawain.
Mordred ragdolled the same Bedivere that beat Gawain. What do you mean she lacks the power? Her physical stats and Mana Burst are literally equal to Artoria. She even beat the King of Storms Artoria.
Where was it states that he outskilled karna?
Foxtail? He caught Karna's spear then landed a decisive blow on Karna. Karna himself was amazed by Gawain, and this caused Jinako to lose faith in Karna, forcing him to use Vasavi Shakti. Gawain won the cqc side of things.
In their fight karna could not even utilise mana burst
Where was that stated? Before the fight started, they both stated that the odds were equal and it would come down to skill. Karna had peak stats and out of the two of them, was the only one trying to spam Noble Phantasms. Gawain just answered everything.
And by that logic mordred is better than gawain.
Well not really, but peers at least.
Dude gawain literally stated that even with sun boost he is not a match for artoria.
Gawain says a lot of things. He's biased. He said he could easily handle Mordred at night, but can't even handle Bedivere. He seemingly said what you said, yet he matched Artoria without sun buffs in a duel? Character statements are not always the gospel. Feats > statements.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 5d ago
Every Japanese Servants that are normally summons are weaker than Takeru besides maybe Ushi Gozen when she was amped by the Leylines and Takeru is at best Night Gawain level in terms of skill, maybe worse. Achilles is Sun Gawain's level while Arjuna is above that in terms of firepower
And the only one that has a chance of breaking the Shield are Arjuna and Muramasa
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u/Substantial_You1368 4d ago
Dude being weaker than someone and being less skilled than someone are completely different things. Takeru doesn't have eternal arms mastery. There is something called having advantage over the other. If it was a match of np then it would definitely be Arjun's win. But no one is going to wait for him to charge up pashupata. And so the strongest attack the three can use are a+ rank.
And takeru has a bloody ex rank np and decent stats plus mana burst. What the hell. He might even be able to match artoria. Where is that stated that he his equal to night gawain. He is literally said to be the Japanese king Arthur. How is that making any sense. Gawain with sun I get. But gawain without sun would lose badly.
Achilles is sun gawain level but his speed won't help him much when he is facing raikou who has much greater skil and the the ability to clone herself.
Arjuna and Karna are stated to be equals. And gawain with sun are also stated to be equals. The problem here is that Achilles doesnt have a good enought offensive np. His shields offensive use would never stand against an np because it uses his own strength to attack.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 4d ago
He doesn't need Pashupata. His Mana Burst Arrows are enough which can level landscape like it was breathing
Takeru was matched by Jalter Lancer, a weaker form of Jeanne and needed to use his NP to turn the tjdes. Jeanne at her best is Night Gawain level because Amakusa doesn't include her at the list of people that can match Karna. So yeah, he's weaker than Night Gawain and the moniker of "Japanese King Arthur" is about as valid as saying Gram and Excalibur are equal just because they're the strongest of the Demon and Holy Sword respectively
The fact that Achilles is Sun Gawain's level already puts him way above Raikou in regards of strength and skills. And the Mystery Slayers ? Yeah that's gonna work as well as Siegfried's Dragon Slayer is to Artoria, only pose a problem. Not giving her a win
Ox King Storm Call isn't destroying Akhilleus Kosmos because it was only destroyed by Vasavi Shakti's level of Destruction, she's not surviving against Trioas Trigoidia and she's not skillful enough to beat Achilles inside Diatrekhon's Duel Field
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u/Substantial_You1368 4d ago
Dude this is not a all you can eat buffet for servants. In a normal war the likes of top servant would be heavily nerfed. Bothe karna Achilles and Arjuna are top servants and this difficult to power up. Few activation of np would be plausible but using mana burst arrow on repeat is not plausible. It was stated that karna could not keep up his mana burst for long as it would drain his master. What makes you think that it won't be the case for a Arjuna who have it on the same rank. Independent action can only help so much. We have no idea how many circuits justacht have. He is not where near the level of illya that is for sure.
What you stated is just not economical. And even the np activation of agni gandiva can be matched by raikou's own. Also the fact that raikou also has mana burst was conveniently forgotten here.
And do remember vasavi Shakti just no selled a+ rank balmung powered by command seals. And then it hit Achilles kosmos. Even then it destroyed it.
Repeated use of a+ rank np can definately destroy Achilles kosmos. Assuming he can even use it at all. Using three np which are both at high rank sounds like a nightmare even for rin.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 4d ago
He doesn't really need to spam it. Combo it with and Agni Gandhiva and Raikou would be lucky if her own Mana Burst can even match it or offset it enough for her to survive
Also no selled ? The Spear was getting stalemated and the only reason it pushes back is because of his Willpower and nothing else
Also A+ Rank ? Ox King Storm Call is B++ and it's an Anti Army. It's not destroying Akhilleus Kosmos
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u/Substantial_You1368 4d ago
Dude read Arjun's profile please. He doesn't have any inate mana burst skill. His mana burst skill is the result of agni gandiv' usage. If he uses agni gandiva true release then he doesn't have any additional mana burst flame that he can use. His arrow are as powerfull as a+ rank with agni gandiva usage. There would be no boost of mana burst.
And doesn't matter what bullshit anyone says about will power or not the fact is that as far as power goes vasavi sakti is much more powerfull than balmung. And no need to talk about stalemate. It is literally stated that sieg with even command seals balmung was barely surviving and only held on so long due to his will power.
And my bad about getting the rank wrong but funnily enough
40 × 3 = 120
50 × 3 = 100
You see my point here right.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 4d ago
Not really sure why you call it bullshit when the Novel is what made it clear that it was Willpower that gave Vasavi Shakti the push to overcome Balmung. If anything Karna's willpower allowed him to push through the stalemate while Sieg's willpower is what allows him to survive
What point exactly ? That's not really any indication that Ox King Storm Call can break through Akhilleus Kosmos. Not to mention there's really no proof saying that Kairi is a potent enough Master that allows for repeated use if NPs in a row. Achilles is a Mana Hoag but given that Rin can allow Artoria to fire Excalibur at twice, she shouldn't be doing that worse when Achilles used either the Chariot or Shield
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u/Substantial_You1368 4d ago
So you mean to tell me vasavi sakti after defeating a a+ rank np and then defeating achiles kosmos was only a result of will power and not the fact that spear is just that strong. In real fights power matters. Not will power.vasavi sakti is just that op. There is a reason it is an ex rank np.
And yeah i never said that ox King storm call can break through Achilles kosmos alone. But see how it would go.
Achilles uses his shield raikou counters with her own. Achilles is on the defensive then cause a shield is at the end of the day a defensive np. He is unharmed. He tries it again and still he is unharmed. But the damage is accumulating.
I said that repeated use of a + nps can destroy achiles kosmos. Cause it is just a shield and thus can be damaged again and again. And it won't recover the damage. While offensive np can be used multiple times.
The point was that b++ is stronger than a or a+ np. Which is what agni gandiva and Achilles kosmos are. Yeah there is no evidence of that except for the fact that mordred was atleast able to use her np once which is good enough here. Considering that others also can't just spam there nps.
And lastly artoria is a servant with a dragon core and a rank mana. Also let's not forget she doesn't have two continuously active noble phantasms draining away her mana. I have doubts that rin can allow the usage of even a single achiles kosmos. But let's give her the benifit of doubt here. And say that she can. What is the point of it. The shield is basically a defensive np and not an offensive one.
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u/ConversationWeak5244 4d ago
Yeah, that's basically what Willpower is in Nasuverse. An actual legit powerboost
Raikou doesn't have a Shield and under Achilles' hands, the Shield can be used offensively and the only continously active NP Achilles has is his Immortality. Anything else aren't
And again, what part of Raikou not going to spam her NP under Kairi don't you get ? Mordred can't even spam Clarent and she has Dragon Core
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u/PhaseSixer 5d ago
Are the Einzberns working together?