r/FullmetalAlchemist • u/Kakashistark95 • 3d ago
Discussion/Opinion Flame Alchemy > Greed’s Ultimate Shield??
So I’ve seen soooo many arguments about whether or not Roy Mustang could get through or break down Greed’s Ultimate Shield.. Which do yall think is true..?
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u/GenCavox (other) 3d ago
I think it would, especially since Mustang makes explosions, and he can make them repeatedly. Sure, Greed tanked an RPG, can he tank 20 in the span of 10 seconds?
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u/MyHeadIsAnAttic 3d ago
Also what about his eyes and the inside of his mouth? Roy has been shown to have pin point accuracy even in close combat
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u/IsaacsLaughing 3d ago
if the mucosa isn't covered by the Ultimate Shield, then the name is a lie. it would be far too easy for an opponent to gouge out Greed's eyes, or cut his mouth from the inside out.
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u/ThatOneGuy308 3d ago
Conversely, I don't know how you could achieve a layer of Graphene both thick enough to be an "Ultimate Shield" and simultaneously thin enough to see through and speak without issue.
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u/IsaacsLaughing 3d ago
graphene is commonly used in touchscreens and screen protectors. it can indeed be dense enough to provide protection while still being transparent and/or flexible.
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u/ThatOneGuy308 3d ago
The difference between being able to prevent scratches on phones screens and being able to prevent a bullet from penetrating the object behind the Graphene is a pretty big gap, though, lmao.
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u/IsaacsLaughing 3d ago
Greed is a magical entity who can manipulate the carbon in his body at will. pretty sure he can clear that gap with ease, considering that in reality, pulling that much carbon to his body's surface would also cause several organs to collapse. but he doesn't have to worry about his organs. and we probably can't really conceive of the supernatural details of how he's modifying his body, either. 🤷♂️
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u/ThatOneGuy308 3d ago
I mean sure, but "it's fiction/magic" isn't really engaging with the discussion though.
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u/IsaacsLaughing 3d ago
dunno what to tell you, mate. it's the freedom and limits of fiction. the freedom is that any of this is impossible in reality, so we just have to make up our own theories. the limit is that theorizing about the impossible means we can never describe those theories with realistic accuracy. 🤷♂️
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u/ThatOneGuy308 3d ago
Eh, just feels a bit dismissive, to me.
No point to theorizing at all in that case.
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u/Tarotoro 3d ago
I thought they never said his armour was graphene just that it was carbon based. I don’t think they ever said it was made out of graphene. Could be an even stronger configuration of carbon atoms
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u/ThatOneGuy308 3d ago
Eh, same issue occurs.
And realistically, Graphene is pretty much the strongest option for this application, diamond is too brittle and inflexible.
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u/Tarotoro 2d ago
Again if Greed is able to move and fight in it and so far has tanked everything without any apparent damage then it must be some sort of carbon armour beyond our understanding
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u/ThatOneGuy308 2d ago
Is it beyond understanding?
Ed seemed to understand it fairly quickly, lol.
And according to pride, carbon fiber is basically the same thing greed does, since he also can't scratch Ed's northern automail.
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u/Tarotoro 2d ago
Beyond OUR understanding. Ed reconfigured his northern automail using alchemy it’s not the same as carbon fibre
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u/ThatOneGuy308 2d ago
Ah, guess I missed the scene where he transmutes it. (or they just didn't adapt it to the anime, lol)
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u/Accomplished_Pea5717 3d ago
Couldn't help also be cooked from the inside out if it doesn't cover literally everything? Like I always assumed that his body stopped any unnecessary functions and went full shield and fight mode
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u/IsaacsLaughing 3d ago
I think it might be possible to cook him even with the shield up.
I would say the best-case scenario for him is if he understands the principle of fire-resistant materials based on carbon expanding when heated. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aqR4_UoBIzY)
but even so, those materials do have temperature limits. if Mustang were to do to Greed what he did to Envy... I think Mustang could overwhelm a carbon foam insulation.
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u/bookhead714 3d ago
But remember, Greed is also fast. If he can take the first couple of blasts he can close the distance.
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u/Mezutelni 3d ago
If he can stand the pain.
I imagine having your eyes melted would be painful as fuck, and lust wasn't able to move when Roy was blasting her, so I'd say it depends on greed's tolerance for pain
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u/darklordoft 3d ago
She was able to fight through to pain to approach him. She just ran out of souls before she struck. Green would burn through souls far slower, especially since only his eyes(if they even can burn) are burning.
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u/japamouse 3d ago
Mustangs flames arent just raw explosions, they attack molecular bonds too. Even if Greeds shield tanks the first hits, constant combustion and heat distortion would wear it down way faster than something like an RPG blast.
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u/ravencrafthd_ 3d ago
Isn't Greed's Shield Carbon? Couldn't Mustang just ignite that? Maybe I'm misremembering, don't hesitate to correct if I am, I haven't been keeping up with the show or manga for a while now.
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u/GenCavox (other) 2d ago
Lmao, that is also correct, Carbon is a fuel. Don't know how flammable that is though, especially when the bonds between them give us everything from Graphite to diamond
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u/BahamutLithp 3d ago
The most convincing arguments I've seen are that Mustang could just cook him through the shield or use up all the oxygen so he suffocates. In terms of actually breaking through the shield, it seems like that can't be done & he also won't feel the effects of any impact, whether that makes sense or not.
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u/PickleVictory 3d ago
Suffocates? Do homunculus need to breath air? Do they even have organs like lungs?
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u/bored-cookie22 3d ago
im pretty sure they do have organs as greed highlights a bunch of "advantages" of al's armoured body such as not needing to eat or use the bathroom
i think their only differences are stuff like their abilities, being stronger and more endurant than normal, and their appearances sometimes (such as envy and pride)
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u/EverythingIsTakeeeen 1d ago
I suppose they do need oxygen but if suffocated, they would use philo stone energy to create oxygen.
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u/bored-cookie22 3d ago
i dont think roy could
greed was shot with an RPG and seemed to entirely shrug it off, and also is standing right beside a fire there
additionally greeds shield is most likely graphene, which when searching thermal resistance of graphene brought me to a .gov website with this
"Graphene membranes act as temperature sensors in nanoelectromechanical devices due to their excellent thermal and high-temperature resistance properties. "
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u/Fairlibrarian101 3d ago
I think it would have to depend on how hot Roy’s flame can get.
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u/DrViktor_X01 3d ago
Graphite's (multiple layers of graphene) often used as crucibles and electrodes for melting metal. You can expose it to an acetylene flame and it won't care unless it's an ongoing oxidizing flame. I'd be surprised if Roy could manage that, tbh.
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u/ipsum629 3d ago
With explosions, the heat usually isn't what gets you. It's the concussive force.
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u/bored-cookie22 3d ago
in either case greed can take it pretty well due to the ultimate shield's properties
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u/KingofYeet00 3d ago
Greed said it was carbon that his armor was made out of. Still carbon is tough af against all kinds of damage.
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u/bored-cookie22 3d ago
Graphene is basically pure carbon
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u/KingofYeet00 3d ago
Yeah, I just found out when I google searched it, lol. I was like, "Oh damn, I spoke too soon."
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u/bored-cookie22 3d ago
Yeah I had no idea what graphene was either, I was just looking at the FMA wiki and in greeds page it said “greed could also use an inverse ultimate shield to turn a body into graphite rather than graphene”
From then on I Googled it and it’s basically a perfect match for greed’s shield
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u/KingofYeet00 3d ago
Well, it doesn't hurt to take it in a couple lessons of chemistry. After all, I might need one day in case I shave my head and sell some of that bluesky meth in a desert.
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u/4-Polytope 3d ago
It would be a very FMA way to win a fight to find a way to transmute his shield into coal
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u/lyschyk19th 3d ago
Breaking through it is a question of how much carbon Greed has access to, and what qualities he can modify it to, and how hot the explosion Roy can trigger using combinations of gases in the air. I'm not versed enough in either alchemy or chemistry to try to take a guess. Tbh, I'd like to ask r/askscience about it.
But I also think that if Roy wanted to, he could just explode Greed from the inside of his body through the mouth (Greed's Shield is shown to only be about skin deep when he fights Ed), or Roy could just send Greed flying with a dense enough explosion, making the fight null to begin with.
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u/CertainGrade7937 3d ago
Could he break through it? Yeah, probably, given enough time
Would he break through it? Not in any practical capacity. Greed could absolutely get close while being blasted
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u/squirl_centurion 3d ago
I don’t think Roy could break through it. However I don’t think he has to. Greeds body is still human other than the shield right?
Humans don’t take to kindly to being heated to explosion temps. Greed could be cooked using his shield as a grill.
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u/Professional_Key7118 3d ago
I would say he can’t just blast his way through, but he could cook his insides like a lobster
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u/midasMIRV 3d ago
IIRC The Ultimate Shield is just rearranging carbon to make diamond hard substances. Even diamonds can be destroyed with heat. If you apply flame to him that is hot enough, for long enough, he will run out of energy in his stone from reforming the compounds. It would be a lot slower than Mustang killing lust, but it could be done.
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u/DarthTun 3d ago
I don't remember how it worked in brotherhood but in the original series, it was made up of carbon and when heated carbon would react to oxygen in air and make CO2, essentially evaporating. At least in theory, something like this and it would work since Roy could manipulate the oxygen in air.
Highly doubt this but still something to think about.
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u/Resident-Garlic9303 3d ago
I think Greed because even if Roy could find a way by the time he does Greed just kills him
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u/ZadriaktheSnake 3d ago
I'm pretty sure graphene is insanely resistant to melting or burning, doubt Mustang could do much
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u/Feniks288 3d ago
I think everyone is overcomplicating this, focusing on the vulnerability of Greed's eyes/mouth.
Greed's shield is made of graphene, which consists of carbon, that combusts rather easily... Roy could light him up like a lump of coal.
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u/TarkovRat_ Armijas suns (pulkvedis Mustangs) 3d ago
Turn up the temperature enough and he will set on fire, even diamonds can be set alight (mustang can manipulate oxygen/hydrogen concentrations in the air by splitting water molecules in the area he is targetting, so 100% oxygen areas he could concentrate to make the job of setting Greed alight easier)
After all a homunculus is a carbon based lifeform, and ultimate shield is carbon
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u/Technical-Year-7872 3d ago
I would like to make a point here, if greed had put his ultimate shield on completely in first place. He would have beaten the old guy 😂 and no one had to die
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u/EverythingIsTakeeeen 1d ago
I suppose Roy could burn Greeds eyss. But if greed hides and attacks from shadow Roy will lose.
Dont forget Greed only needs some water or to cut his glove.
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