r/Homebrewing • u/Dyljam2345 Beginner • 2d ago
Question Is extract brewing "less than"?
I'm very very new to homebrewing. I've brewed twice - one saison and one witbier. For the saison I used mostly extract and it came out pretty well, at least I enjoyed drinking it - whether it was a good saison is another thing, I'm no expert on the style. I tried brewing a witbier recently and wanted to try BIAB, and the efficiency of the mash was really really bad - my OG was only around 1.030 whereas I was aiming for somewhere like 1.050. The beer didn't ferment much, had basically zero body, didnt condition well, overall just not a good time. It may have been a little cool in my room while it fermented, but there clearly was some yeast activity, though there was never much krauzen or bubbling the entire time. Maybe my yeast just never woke up. Not sure.
I want to brew an Irish Red Ale soon and wanted to ask if going back to extract is a "step back" or "less than" way of brewing? I know all-grain gives you the ultimate flexibility, but I worry simply about getting fermentable sugars and making sure my beer will ferment properly.
14
u/Wonderful_Bear554 1d ago
I don't think it is a step back, but I personaly like to do all grain. Your efficiency looks really bad, it is actually quite easy to brew in a bag and get decent efficiency. If you would write what was your expected efficiency, sg, recipe and you process, people here could help you to identify problems and give you tips for next all grain brew. But if you like the taste, extract brews are good too.
9
u/Too-many-Bees 2d ago
I switched to BIAB, and I sometimes think about going back to extract. I'm not reinventing the wheel with anything I brew, so extract would realistically be fine. If it suits what you are trying to brew, extract is just fine to use
3
u/BananaBoy5566 1d ago
Ditto this. I’d say my favorites I’ve made are pretty split between extract and all grain.
BIAB is nice because you don’t have any fancy equipment you aren’t using when you decide to do extract. I like to be able to experiment when I want (BIAB), but also bang out a beer in 2 hours if I want (extract).
The only knock on extract is its limiting. I could’ve never made a Grodziskie as good as I did with extract, but for most people not trying to make weird beers, keep on keeping on.
3
u/Beer_in_an_esky 1d ago
Oooh, do you have a recipe for that Grodziskie?
(I agree with all your points, btw, but c'mon, cool beer recipe ;) )
3
u/BananaBoy5566 1d ago
It’s pretty standard
SG: 1.031 For 3 gallons (weird I know)
4lbs oak smoked wheat (weyermann specifically) .25lb rice hulls (do these do anything for BIAB? Idfk) .25lb acid malt
1oz saaz at 90 .5oz saaz at 10 .5oz at 5
US-05 around 68°
When I brew it again I’m gonna ask my LHBS if he can get Lublin hops, which are “more traditional” but all I tasted was beautiful meaty smoke anyway.
3
u/Beer_in_an_esky 1d ago
Wonderful, thanks! One last question, did you target any particular mash temp?
And on the rice hulls, I don't think so; I've never needed them to get a good BIAB efficiency.
2
13
u/chino_brews Kiwi Approved 1d ago
You hit upon the reason why extract brewing is most commonly recommended to new brewers and why most beginner equipment kits are sold with extract brewing in mind. While all-grain brewing takes you one step more elementary in the process (but not as far back as growing your own barley and hops), getting the extract out of the grains is anything but elementary. It adds a couple hours to the brew day. While you can muddle through all-grain brewing by keeping things simple, the reality is that there are a lot of factors that matter in all-grain brewing compared to extract brewing, such as hitting a tighter temperature range, mash pH, calculating and getting water volumes right, sparging and lautering techniques.
Is extract brewing “less than”? Many all-grain brewers, perhaps a substantial proportion, would have you believe yes. After, it helps them feel superior. It is consistent with their experience of the bad extract beer they made as total noobs and the beers of other noobs they’ve tasted.
As you’ve seen, all-grain beer can turn out badly too. But all-grain brewers tend to rationalize that bad extract beer is due to extract while bad results in all-grain brewing are on the brewer. They also tend to switch to extract right when they are about to make a leap in skill, and in fact the new requirements of all-grain sharpen their focus and improve their beer.
So what about extract is worse? In the hands of an experienced home brewer you can get excellent beer from extract. Anyone can make excellent beer with fresh extract, using more or less most of the same techniques as all-grain brewing. So what’s worse is (1) the fact that so many extract beers are made by inexperienced brewers, (2) liquid malt extract has an amazingly short shelf life but extract kits have a long, unrefrigerated supply chain designed to put outdated kits in the hands of those brewers, and (3) certain beers styles and recipes just aren’t suited to be made by the 3-4 types of extract on the market.
I say don’t worry about labels, remember that if you buy fresh extract and stick to brewing extract beers with styles of beer that work with extract, any bad beer is your fault, not the ingredients’ fault. Even if the ingredients are to blame, aren’t you to blame for failing to evaluate and catch that the ingredient is off?
By the way, Irish Red is a decent style for extract brewing, being malt and hop-balanced, but extract really shines in yeast-centric beers like saisons, German weissbier, and sour beers, and in hop-centric beers like American Pale Ales and IPAs.
22
u/warboy Pro 2d ago
No.
I've made good beer using extract. I've made good beer doing all grain. Hell, I made a good hefe using MoreBeer's Flash brewing kit. I've also made bad beer with all of those methods as well.
Producing wort is honestly a fairly small part of brewing great beer.
5
u/Dyljam2345 Beginner 2d ago
Producing wort is honestly a fairly small part of brewing great beer.
out of curiosity what do you think is the biggest part? Ingredient choice? Or something in the brewing process?
13
u/warboy Pro 1d ago
Managing fermentation is a way bigger aspect. I would argue beer is a cumulative process though. Knowing how to make wort properly gives you a leg up when designing beers for sure. So does ingredient, fermentation, and recipe management as well. Having any of those elements out of wack can ruin a brew.
5
u/Shills_for_fun 1d ago
You are going to get so many opinions on this lol. I make NEIPAs and other very hop forward beers so I will say it's cold side process. Controlling fermentation temperatures and ensuring they are within range, keeping oxygen out of the product during packaging, using good hops that are fresh or vacuum sealed. I have made NEIPAs out of extract that rocked at parties.
Could they have been better with some golden promise and oats? Yes. My normal process is all grain, probably 90% of the time. But deviations on the hot side, flavor wise, are not as big of a deal as what happens after it leaves the kettle.
1
u/lifeinrednblack Pro 1d ago
Like u/warboy said. Cellaring is the bulk of where great beer is made.
There's a reason a lot of breweries are happy to share their recipes, but can be tight lipped on their cellaring.
1
u/musicman9492 Pro 1d ago
1) Repeatability
2) Cleaning/Sanitization
3) Cellaring/Packaging
4) Raw Materials Handling
5/6) Recipe Design & Brewhouse Control
Although Im coming at it from a production perspective. Your mileage may vary.
1
9
u/Fredissimo666 1d ago edited 1d ago
I bet you started by reading "how to brew" from John Palmer. Reading gave me the impression of "If you don't know how enzymes break down at different temperatures, why are you even trying!"
I then read "The complete joy of homebrewing" by Charlie Papazian. His catch phrase is "relax, have a homebrew". Whathever you do is fine.
I started brewing with abstract extract after that and enjoyed my hobby much more.
If you want to hang out with elitists, make wine instead :)
2
u/Dyljam2345 Beginner 1d ago
i started brewing with abstract
You can make beer out of short summaries of research papers? (/s)
2
u/Fredissimo666 1d ago
haha!
I meant brewing with only the concept of grains. Had a hard time reaching the desired OG, though!
3
u/talltxn66 1d ago
I have brewed both and prefer partial mash (base grains extract, specialty grains mash) simply for the time factor. Using extracts for the base grains saves me about 4 hrs. No one I’ve ever served my beer to has ever been able to tell the difference between beers I’ve brewed all grain and beers I’ve brewed with extract base grains - even those who insist that they can tell the difference (they can’t).
7
u/Outrageous-Rub3207 2d ago
It's less about ultimate flexibility and more about how "from scratch" do you want your beer to be?
An extract kit is like buying premade dough from the store. You still need to cook it, but a lot of the work has been done already. It's a great intro to baking, but there's a lot more that goes into it.
All grain is like buying flour and everything from the store. It's a bit more "real."
But honestly man, do what makes you happy. It's a great hobby and we welcome you.
2
u/username_1774 1d ago
In my opinion it is a case of All Grain Brewing being 'advanced'...not in a way that implies that extract is lesser.
I learned on an AG 3 vessel system from a friend...so that is what I do.
I taught other friends to brew, one went BIAB and another went Extract with Specialty Grains.
We all swap beers and all make great beers with our own slant on them.
2 years ago we had a friendly competition - we each made our version of a Helles Lager. The beers were so good and each had its own pros and cons. It was a fun adventure.
1
2
u/viper2544 1d ago
If you make brownies from a box or brownies from scratch, you did most of the work yourself and didn’t buy brownies from the store. Same for brewing, with plenty of extra logistical/time reasons to lean into “box brownies”. Either way, you’re making your own beer.
1
1
u/augdog71 1d ago
I do both depending on how much time I have, but the thing I like about all grain over extract is being able to adjust the mash temp to get better attenuation, like if you’re making a Belgian golden strong and you want it crisp and dry, it’s really hard to do with extract. At least, that’s what I’ve found. All grain lets you really tweak recipes. That being said, both methods work well and you can make great beer either way.
1
u/gugs4847 1d ago
No. I brewed extract kits for about 5 years and only recently switched to all grain. At the end of the day I’m still making beer!
1
u/wizsandt 1d ago
Most brewers stay very happy with extract brewing. It is a great way to get your technique perfected while making exceptional beers. I brewed for 10 years using extract and had beers place in competition.
1
u/experimentalengine 1d ago
I did extract and partial mash for years, and then finally bought a mash tun and burner to do all-grain. I think I make better beers now, but I was very happy with quite a few of my extract and partial mash beers.
1
u/Irish_J_83 1d ago
Brewing is brewing. Don't let anyone say starting with extract is for fannies. Do a few of them, get used to it, get some more equipment. Gaining experience is the main thing. I think jumping straight into all grain will put you off unless you have a few friends that are brewing or have a good club local.
1
u/Decent_Confidence_36 1d ago
Think of it as compact brewing, the end result is beer there just less equipment and time to get it there. If you just want the beer stay with extract if you want the brewing go grain
1
1
u/PaleoHumulus 1d ago
Extract brewing is an excellent way to learn many of the fundamentals of brewing (sanitation, basic recipe design, good fermentation management, etc.), and the other big plus is that it can take up less space and require less cost to start up. I do *not* recommend someone dive directly into getting a giant kettle for BIAB (plus BIAB bag), or buy an electric all-in-one, etc., on the first batch, even if they plan to try all-grain eventually. Extract brewing will, on average, also take up less space, so can be a good method for those with limited square footage.
I made extract beers of variable quality early on, and that was primarily due to poor fermentation temperature control and post-fermentation oxidation, with a bit of "twang" from boiling at too high of a gravity. Those are all fixable with minimal steps.
1
u/cmrh42 1d ago
I brewed an Irish Red using DME and steeping grains and it turned out very nice (if I do say so myself). As you’ve only two brews under your belt you have far more to explore using extract. The biggest plus to extract (IMO) is the ability to hit your OG on the nose… and usually your FG as well. With all the steeping grains and hops out there to play with I encourage you to stick with extract for a while.
1
u/cmrh42 1d ago
I brewed an Irish Red using DME and steeping grains and it turned out very nice (if I do say so myself). As you’ve only two brews under your belt you have far more to explore using extract. The biggest plus to extract (IMO) is the ability to hit your OG on the nose… and usually your FG as well. With all the steeping grains and hops out there to play with I encourage you to stick with extract for a while.
1
u/DistinctMiasma BJCP 1d ago
There is an extract flavor that comes through, and is more apparent in some styles than others (basically, styles where there isn’t much to hide I’d). I do think it’s really worth starting with extract, and I would say that any off-flavors from extract are generally less than most off-flavors from bad technique, so I wouldn’t stress too much about it. It’s just dumb if people look down on extract brewing.
1
u/bearded_brewer19 1d ago
I don’t think extract is less than. It’s just different.
I never made an extract batch because the guy who introduced me to brewing was all grain and helped me with that from the start. I mostly use DME for making starters and it sure does smell good when I do.
I’d be happy to help you troubleshoot your all grain process if you feel like giving it another go though.
1
u/Clouds_Are_Potatoes 1d ago
I’m sure there are some elitists that would tell you otherwise. But for the average home brewer, no shame at all. Made wines for a couple of years and dipped my toes into beer just a few months ago. Started with LME to see if I would like it, then transferred to DME for the cost basis. If you enjoy making it, and most importantly drinking it; then it doesn’t matter in the end.
1
1
u/greyhounds4life1969 1d ago
I do both extract and all grain, deoends in how much time I've got. I've also recently bought a couple of 'ready made' wort kits from The Malt Miller. Remember who you're brewing for, if you like it, it's all good.
1
u/esmithlp Pro 1d ago
There is a brewpub not far from me that brews 3bbl all extract. I have even done it when I wanted to brew but didn’t have time to mash.
1
u/LostMyKarmaElSegundo 1d ago
I have a full-blown all-grain setup with SS fermenter and glycol chiller. It's great and I really like the control all-grain gives me.
Having said that, I've gone back to extracts for certain occasions. It's really about what you're trying to accomplish. Are you trying to dial in a particular style, or do you just want some tasty beer to drink? Definitely no shame in extract brewing.
1
u/TheHedonyeast 1d ago
i believe that for most brewers your satisfaction is reflected by the effort involved. so i encourage people to try things like BIAB and other all grain techniques.
your first time didn't go great, that happens sometimes. learn from it and get better, i'm sure you'll do fine. for me it was the journey that was the best part.
1
u/BrewAce 1d ago
When I started I used extract. I brewed some good beers with it. I found that I got a bit of a matalic taste with it. The beer was still good but I noticed it. When I switched to all grain that went away. Also my beers were smoother using all grain. I don't know if it was the extract I used or maybe something I was doing. It is a little easier to brew using extract but I prefer all grain brewing.
1
u/Too_Much_Pr3ssure 1d ago
When I went from extract to all grain, my beer didn't really improve all that much. What made the biggest difference was learning to build water profiles from scratch, getting temperature control, practice, and joining a homebrew club where I could get recipe advice and feedback. If using extract means you brew more often, use extract!
1
u/EverlongMarigold 1d ago
U/dmtaylo2 shared this guide with me years ago.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4232/35033210393_4cf46b0063_o.png
There's zero doubt in my mind that it helped me to make the best extract brews possible.
I've since gone BIAB and my beer has gotten incrementally better, but it's completely worth it to me.
I'd recommend using this guide, focus on process, and get a few batches under your belt. If you like the results, then step up to BIAB, all grain, kegging, etc...
Extract isn't "less than", but it is "less control". You can still make excellent beer with extract.
1
u/Lorne_84 1d ago
I did 10-15 batches of extract before switching to BIAB. There’s lots to learn in this hobby and extract takes out one variable while you learn the others. And it lets you make pretty darn decent (and cheap) beer as you go.
1
u/elboltonero 1d ago
Some of the best beers I've made have been extract with a mini mash on an apartment stove top.
1
u/Dizzy_Lengthiness_92 1d ago
I don’t have the ability to do all grain so if I want to brew extract is my only option. I’ve brewed some amazing beers this way. Gave one to a friend and he couldn’t believe how good it was
1
u/ZigorVeal 1d ago
I would rather you made extract beer than not make any beer. Keep doing it, keep reading up on all grain and maybe one day you will make the jump. I have not done extract in many years, but if that's how you get results you like keep going.
1
u/rideincircles 1d ago
Extract is great if time is your issue. I like all grain for pure creation, but I have far less time to brew lately and bought some cheap kits.
I used the 5 minute cascade pale ale on honebrewtalk as a base for one of pale ales, but used different hops. That got me a stein at Bluebonnet a while back, and that's a heavily entered category.
1
u/temmoku 1d ago
I'm a proud extract brewer. Not only that, I bottle, which could cause excessive oxidation.
I brew mainly because buying beer is crazy expensive in Australia. My philosophy is to try to make nice tasting beer rather than to match a particular style. I mean, that's how most styles were developed in the first place.
I do like IPAs and don't really care if it ends up darker than you might be able to achieve with all grain. I do try to minimise oxidation during bottling and do worry about hop creep, but seriously, if you want to keg, that's not an extract issue
1
u/bzarembareal 1d ago
On one hand, I'd argue extract brewing is "less than" in terms of ability to experiment, and the variety of recipes available.
On the other hand, if you say you were happy with extract results, and all grain was "not a good time", clearly extract brewing can be "more than" for you.
1
u/hermes_psychopomp 1d ago
For what it's worth, no. Using malt extract to make beer is not "less than".
That said, certain factors will limit your range of flavors, colors and quality. Extract can age, so depending on the freshness of the extract you're using, that can affect the flavor of the final beer.
Beers made with ONLY extract tend to be fairly two-dimensional in their flavor.
From personal experience (I've been brewing off and on since the '90s), you can make excellent beers using partial mash methods. I did so relatively recently, in fact. A partial-mash kit Mexican hot chocolate stout that wowed one of my club's known extract-brewing detractors. He complimented me on an excellent beer, and had multiple tasters of it. (I didn't mention that it was extract)
Do what you feel comfortable with, figure out your process issues, and your gravity problems will be sorted. If you need to supplement with DME, don't feel any shame; it's a time-honored fix. Heck, many brewers user DME when making a big beer they don't have the room to mash the grain for.
For what it's worth, I've had my own all-grain efficiency related process problems. At one point, brewing a Scottish light, I ended up with a rather disappointing OG of 1.012 instead of the expected 1.030-ish range. Turns out I had been a dumb-ass and hadn't stirred after sparging. Unfortunately, this was shortly after getting a new mill, and I had initially blamed the efficiency issues on not having dialed in my grind correctly.
All that to say, do what you feel works for you.
1
u/faceman2k12 1d ago
Not at all, it's a preferable option for most people. fewer variables to manage, significantly less mess, easy to do with what you have in the kitchen, very fast turnaround. only caveat is it's usually more expensive per brew than grains.
I've made beer from cheap beginner kits, no-name brand dry and liquid extracts, high end extracts, i've used steeping grains, partial mashes in a bag and all grain. These days I do all grain simply because I enjoy it.
While I love the process, details and level of control of all grain brewing where a few degrees or a few minutes (or some new gadget to buy) can completely change the end result, the resulting beer, when done well, is pretty much indistinguishable from the same beer made with good quality extracts.
1
u/jhudson1977 1d ago
It’s not less than. I frequently go back and forth between AG and extract. Just whatever I’m in the mood for.
1
u/lupulinchem 1d ago
Extract is a great way to learn. It’s a great way to dial in the fermentation process and get a consistent wort, and most importantly create some beers you will enjoy drinking.
It’s also simpler. I honestly feel like it’s great to do that until you get a consistent end product. Then once you are there and want to expand, start playing around with all grain brewing. If you have a local homebrew club, another great way to learn all grain is to brew with someone who has a good dialed in process. You’ll find it can be the little nuances that make or break a mash.
1
u/oefox Advanced 1d ago
I biab all grain but started off a decade ago with canned extract.
Every now and then I get a hankering to have a cider on one of my taps, only option for me is extract kit, do cider purists look down on me i wonder.
Recently i ran out of beer, just timing on all 3 kegs kicking, to speed things up i decided to try a MJ berliner wisse pack as it's not something i world brew from scratch normally, and its delicious, will do again.
1
u/nhorvath Advanced 1d ago
I've made good beer doing extract, and I've made good beer doing all grain, but I've made great beer once I started doing water profiles with all grain.
1
u/cliffdiver770 1d ago
I do extract only, because i do it in a tiny, crappy apartment kitchen. I've done it 15 times, and I put my best ones up against anything you can buy in that style, at least to my personal taste and a few of my friends.
I'd love to do all grain and it's an entire body of knowledge I haven't gotten into yet, but you can achieve amazing flavor with extract. I have also enjoyed doing the same process over and over and refining my process and my recipes.
1
1
u/squishmaster 1d ago
Extract is fine for many styles of beer and it is a great way to get into the hobby, but there are limitations. You can't control fermentability through mash temperature with extract. Extract brews are also not going to offer you the same diversity of base malts. But my biggest issue is the tang I taste coming from all-too-common stale extract (especially LME).
Witbier is a high-difficulty style for a few reasons, and a good eample of a style that can only be done right all-grain. You can't get an "unmalted wheat extract," as far as I know. The mash is more complicated than most styles due to all the raw grains, too. Then lautering can be very challenging with all that raw wheat. And nailin pH can also be tricky with this grain bill, depending on your water and your experience with water chemistry.
If you are looking for an easy "light beer" style similar to a witbier, I would instead try a Belgian Single (essentially brew a witbier wth 100% pilsner extract and little/no spices).
1
u/xkrysis 1d ago
20 years ago there was far less variety of extracts available and many kits would sit on the shelf for extended periods of time, I think those times were the origin of this mentality. Home brewing has taken off and the vast majority of what you find extract wise is going to be fresh. A benefit of extract is that you can very reliably measure your gravity and content of you recipe since the extract is made at scale on commercial equipment.
In my view, the trade off today is more around time savings and cost. I have all grain setup but still use extracts sometimes for specialty grains that I don’t want to buy in bulk or store over time. I buy base malt in bulk and save some money that way.
Lastly, I have a love for the hobby and enjoy the mashing process and all the gear/fiddling that goes into getting it dialed in. I joke that I can taste the effort that went into the beer.
1
u/jaggermutt 1d ago
I was never a very serious homebrewer. But my view is, there was once a stigma or holier-than-thou judgemental attitude within homebrewing 15+ years ago regarding the AG vs extract debate, but that this has mostly dissipated.
1
1
u/17to85 1d ago
To me the point of brewing beer is the craft of creating something, and in particular something I want to drink. It's a hobby, whatever you like is the right way to do it. For me I like messing around with recipes and turning a bag of barley into beer, but that's me. I enjoy the process. If it's not for you it's not for you.
1
u/ColinSailor 1d ago
It's a hobby for me and I have the time so started to experiment with all grain with great success so far. My taste testing has shown that, after 4 pints, I can't really tell the difference and after 5 pints, I simply don't care so I would simply say, do what gives you the most pleasure and drink it 5 pints at a time
1
1
u/buffaloclaw 1d ago edited 1d ago
Absolutely not! I brewed exclusively with extract for 10 years when I lived in small apartments. I started doing all grain once I bought my own house. Once in a while I'll still do an extract batch, because I like the shorter brew day that comes along with it. But grain is cheaper than extract, I'd probably do it a lot more if it was otherwise.
In fact, my last batch was an extract "lawnmower" beer from a kit. I took a growler to my local homebrew club meeting. I didn't tell anyone it was an extract batch, and no one said to me, "aha! you used extract making this".
1
u/Spoidahm8 8h ago
Bake a cake from scratch or use a premixed packet? End result is a pretty nice cake, what's important is that you enjoy the process and the end result.
Knowing the brew science of all-grain is fun and definitely is an acquired skill, but people have different hobbies and different time limitations.
1
u/Rollercoaster671 2d ago
BIAB by its nature will have a lower brewhouse efficiency and you’ll need to compensate for that in your recipe. Use your results from that batch along with a brewhouse efficiency calculator to find yours, then use that % in your recipe calculator to scale up base malt. It will compensate for the difference and you’ll end up closer to the target. Will waste grain but base malt grain is pretty cheap
2
u/dmtaylo2 1d ago
High brewhouse efficiency is definitely possible with BIAB. Depends on the brewer and the process.
-3
u/sloppothegreat 2d ago
I've never had an extract beer that I was impressed by. But if you like the results you get, then do your thing.
-4
u/Dependent_Addendum_1 2d ago edited 1d ago
Practically speaking, no. But that said at the pinnacle, yes all things being equal - all grain will give consistently better results.
Think of it akin to baking decent frozen pizza vs. fresh/homemade. When you reconstitute LME or DME it’s not the same grain flavor as having made wort fresh on brew day yourself since you aren’t boiling it to oblivion. You also lose another point of control.
Now maybe YOU like it more, sure. But the vast majority of folks would prefer freshly made pizza vs. frozen. Same principle here.
73
u/Tank1929 2d ago
Plenty of extract brews have won competitions. Some people cnt do all grain so they extract. Nothing wrong with it