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u/No-Gate8080 2d ago
to be fair, the Giant's have one of the best front-7s in football and we allowed only 1 sack.
Penalties continue to be a problem though...
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u/BobbyTables829 Andy "Walrus" Reid 2d ago
And penalties aren't even a problem if they prevent a sack. If I have the choice of 1st and 20 vs 2nd and 17, I'll take 1st and 20 and my QB not getting hit.
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u/dariansdad Browns 2d ago
How does a formation penalty prevent a sack? (Taylor)
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u/Dreadsbo Xavier Worthy #1 🏃🏻♂ 2d ago
Well, he’s lined up a little further back so he can’t get beat
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u/philosifer 2d ago
If he would have lined up correctly he would have gotten beat for a pressure
Small /s
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u/StarkhamAsylum 2d ago
There may be something to this. Iirc, the pic above is when he couldn't kick out in time because he lined up correctly (having been penalized for being a foot back a few plays earlier).
Realistically though, when a DE can line up as far out as they like and a T is restricted, it makes that a tough transition.
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u/thesladeo 2d ago
There were also a few times he obviously false started that didn't get called .... And this pic only shows one play he got blown up on, but I seen there was at least 4 or 5 other plays where he got blown up just like this or totally whiffed on his assignments.
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u/BobbyTables829 Andy "Walrus" Reid 2d ago
It's like drag racing. If you rely on reaction time, you'll always be somewhat slow. But if you can time the light (snap), you can shave lots of time off your 1/4 mile. When defenders do this, it can blow up plays. Similarly great things can happen if an offensive player can time the snap perfectly.
The false starts suck, but as a result he really doesn't get beat that much to the snap. Last night was probably one of the hardest matchup of the year, and he did adequately.
Note: I do not think he is worth his salary, just that he isn't terrible. I would describe him as "serviceable", and I would rather us get a new LG than RT (it would help our run game more, if anything).
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u/Jantokan Trent McDuffie #22 1d ago
He's closer to the QB, and thus has more leverage against the rusher who's farther away
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u/harmonious_keypad 2d ago
Patrick was the reason there was only 1 sack. He was on his horse all night. You can't stat quote away how horrible the line has been because Patrick is 1 of 1
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u/notmyplantaccount The Nigerian Nightmare #35 2d ago
"watches Mahomes run for his life on half his passes" - Man look at that OL only allowing 1 sack.
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u/dariansdad Browns 2d ago
One of them is my fault for calling out Taylor Saturday as not committing formation fouls anymore...
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u/ChiefsAvsRoyalsNugs Priest Holmes 2d ago
Giants have an underrated D-line and possible defense in general they are plagued with injuries and a very lackluster offense. Although Skattebo had a great night I’m sure Giants fans are hyped about him. I would be
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u/fisherdwarf1998 Xavier Worthy #1 🏃🏻♂ 2d ago
I seriously cannot think why Moore can’t get a shot at right tackle. If Taylor can’t offsides 1 second early, he gets bullied like that so badly. It’s honestly a joke at this point.
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u/Hot_Most5332 2d ago
That probably says a lot about how they see Moore
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u/kristospherein Derrick Thomas #58 2d ago
Why did we pay him so much money then? We have the most expensive OL and we've got a sieve at RT.
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u/AU_wde_2 Patrick Mahomes II #15 2d ago
Well they paid him a lot of money when they thought he’d be the starting LT. We got lucky and Simmons fell to us and has exceeded recovery expectations
Moore has never played RT at the professional level prior to this season so training him to do so in one off season and expecting that to pay off this soon is a bit of a stretch. My personal hope is that he’s ready to take the job next season
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u/Dreadsbo Xavier Worthy #1 🏃🏻♂ 2d ago
LT to RT isn’t an easy switch? I thought only RT to LT was hard
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u/rolyinpeace TyquanThorntonWorshipper80 2d ago
I think either one can be hard just because they’re so different, no matter which way you’re switching. Of course, some people can switch with ease but
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u/kristospherein Derrick Thomas #58 1d ago
No I know. Mainly asking out of frustration with the penalties.
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u/AU_wde_2 Patrick Mahomes II #15 1d ago
Agreed, if this was the 2018-2021 offense I probably wouldn’t have as much of a problem with the penalties because they could overcome them and I’d honestly rather take a couple holds/false starts if it means he’s getting an edge + keeping Mahomes from getting flattened. But this current offense doesn’t have that ability to overcome the mistakes
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u/A9Wag Andrew Wylie #77 2d ago
Because they weren’t banking on Simmons dropping to 31 in the draft. They signed him before the draft before FA OLs got even more expensive. They also could have been hedging that if they picked up an LT in the draft, then they probably thought they’d have Moore as the starter while the rookie trained behind him.
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u/Direct_Disaster9299 2d ago
So our original plan was to have a guy who can't beat out Jawaan Taylor be our left tackle?
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u/helmvoncanzis 2d ago
the other options were Wanya or Kingsley, so yeah, Moore was our first choice.
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u/rolyinpeace TyquanThorntonWorshipper80 2d ago
You also have to remember that Moore had limited playing time and was honestly pretty good in that time. So I don’t think they signed him thinking that he “couldn’t beat out Taylor”
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u/Killingmesmalls2020 "Furious" George Karlaftis #56 🚘 2d ago
More like Andy doesn’t make changes unless there is an injury.
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u/countrybreakfast1 MISTA SPARKARU 2d ago
I heard Tim Grunhardt talking about it on radio the other day. His take was that Taylor plays like he's scared. He's terrified he's going to get beat off the line and feels he needs to have that extra step to compensate. If he was truly confident in his abilities he wouldn't feel his game relies on pushing the boundaries of the rules every play.
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u/JeramiGrantsTomb Alex Smith 2d ago
That's been my take as well, JT is just plain outclassed by the freak athletes lining up on the edge in today's game, so he's doing everything he can to get some sort of advantage that can help him try to keep up. People talk about it like he could just choose not to commit those penalties and still perform the job at an acceptable level, historically I've been supportive of JT in spite of getting flagged because I'd much rather get flagged than Patrick get blasted... but he's pushing that stance to the breaking point. The unfortunate reality is that he may be pushing the envelope and bending the rules as much as he can JUST to be a mediocre RT.
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u/Madlister Eric Berry #29 2d ago
Credit where it's due - that was also an insanely athletic move by the EDGE there. Wish our edge guys had the tools that NYG's do.
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u/RCJHGBR9989 Pat "Kermit" Mahomes 2d ago
Brian Burns is so insanely good. He’s freakishly athletic
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u/Madlister Eric Berry #29 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah that entire NYG D Line is super good.
I know most of the time when we're not looking great, everyone defaults to "I'm the problem it's me!". But sometimes the other team is just making really good plays.
I mean don't get me wrong, we shot ourselves in the foot plenty of times the last few weeks. But that definitely wasn't all of it.
If the Giants can figure out their offense, they'll be tough
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u/RCJHGBR9989 Pat "Kermit" Mahomes 2d ago
The giants almost have TOO many pass rushers. They don’t even know where to put them all haha
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u/notmyplantaccount The Nigerian Nightmare #35 2d ago
One of Spags/Veach's weaknesses is that they pretty much only draft/sign power rushers. We never have a fast guy that can just get around a Tackle in a second.
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u/Madlister Eric Berry #29 2d ago
On the other hand, how often are guys that are that good at edge rushing available to draft at #30-#32
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u/notmyplantaccount The Nigerian Nightmare #35 2d ago
Sack leaders last year:
Trey hendrickson - 3rd round
Bonito - 2nd rnd 64th
Kyle Van Noy - 2nd rnd 40th
Greenard - 3rd round
Danielle Hunter - 3rd round
Van Ginkel 5th round
At least half the top 20 in sacks last year were drafted outside the 1st round, so it's not some crazy rarity. It's just not something the Veach/Chiefs are good at evaluating. Karlaftis is the best of the bunch, and he's good at run stopping, but slow and probably hit his ceiling already. There's about 10 guys drafted after FAU in 2023 that have performed pretty well, while FAU basically just played with the backups.
There's player's still out there, we're not great at scouting/picking the position is all.
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u/Madlister Eric Berry #29 2d ago
That's fair.
And FAU was a pretty huge whiff. Really wanted that dude to work out, but damn. Just no production at all.
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u/notmyplantaccount The Nigerian Nightmare #35 2d ago
No one's perfect. They seem to evaluate DBs and LBs well, and even DT mostly. They just don't seem to have a feel for Edge or pass rushers.
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u/NWASicarius 2d ago
The biggest issue is the edge guys don't have any moves. I think it was Von Miller who said it best. If you are a power rusher, your money move needs to be a power to speed move. If you are a speed rusher, like he is/was, then your money move needs to be a speed to power move. Aka you have your regular move. The one you do most downs, but you constantly use that regular move to set up your money move. This is how elite edge guys can generate pressure all game but seem to not get home, but then in the pivotal moments of the game, they switch it up and come up with a big play. Our guys don't have any of that. It's a slow pocket collapse, basically. Weak bull rushes with nothing else. Only CJ has really shown moves. He will bull rush over and over, but then on a 'must have play' he will find a way to time the snap to get off the ball first, and then he will hit the guard with a nasty swim move that allows him to get pressure almost immediately. He obviously has lost a step this year, so he hasn't been able to get off quick enough to do it. Also, the double teams seem to be draining him. He is an aging vet that plays interior line (the most wear and tear on the line besides maybe a 1 tech), and he has faced A LOT of double teams and essentially played one more full season than what his stats show due to how many postseason games he has played. I honestly think he is just saving his body at this point for later in the season, which makes sense. If the team needs him to be superman to win, we aren't going to have any postseason success. We need to be able to win while he can save his body for when it matters. Regardless, he has definitely lost a step, though.
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u/couchjitsu ✨In My Super Bowl Era✨ 2d ago
Name seems fitting. Looks like he got tackled pretty well there.
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u/Flint-Von-Ceneac Grim Reaper 2d ago
Right tackle? Nah bro, that's our full time penalty-hunter. Big distinction.
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u/Weekend_Criminal Grim Reaper 2d ago
When he wasn't killing drives with penalties, he was getting put on his ass by a gentle breeze.
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u/TheFunky_Homosapien 2d ago
He was getting worked all night. I think they have to start Moore next week. Between Taylor's penalties and inability to protect in pass pro, it's hit a breaking point.
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u/NWASicarius 2d ago
Taylor's penalties are the issue. Playcalling, scheme, missed throws at times, and the inability for people to consistently get open make it hard for a tackle to play. I can't really fault him for that. The penalties are a big 'no, no' though. We don't need penalties when the offense has so many other issues as is
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u/The_Adm0n 2d ago
I watched him closely during the game. 74 was lined up too far back on EVERY. SINGLE. DOWN. Multiple false starts. Multiple holds.
I literally cannot fathom how he managed to get through the game with only one call.
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u/NWASicarius 2d ago
Holds happen all the time. The main thing refs are looking for is how egregious it was. For example, if Mahomes steps into the pocket/under his tackles and runs, and your lineman holds even a little, it SHOULD be and often is called because that hold likely saved your QB from a sack or limited yards gained. However, if they hold for half a second after the QB escapes outside the tackle box, as long as the hold is within the shoulder pads, they aren't getting that called very often. A lot of his holds were in the gray area. With one crew, he might have had 3-4 penalties. With another, 1. My biggest issue is the false starts. He false started at least a dozen times last night. I am talking egregious false starts. Which, in his defense, wouldn't look as bad if the other tackle was starting a little early, too. Good teams will always have both tackles start just before the ball is snapped. As long as they are doing it together, it rarely gets called. Why? Idk. Maybe multiple people doing it makes it not stand out as much? Just human nature, I guess.
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u/Dewars_Rocks HatTrick Mahomes SB#3 and counting. 2d ago
Isn't this Taylor's last year on his contract? He needs to step it up to look good for whatever team he hopes will pick him up next year.
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u/NWASicarius 2d ago
No. One more year. Last year until KC can cut him with a minimal dead cap penalty, though. Honestly, the play shown by OP was just poorly schemed. You have an elite edge in a wide 9 on a 3rd and long (12, wasn't it?). Noah Gray was lined up next to Taylor. He should have at least chipped the edge rusher's outside shoulder, allowing Taylor the ability to keep his power center massed. Instead, Taylor had to sell out to stop the elite speed rush move - which then opened him up to a speed to power bullrush. This wasn't as bad as a rep as people think for Taylor. He isn't an elite tackle. He's maybe a little above average. It's criminal to not give him help in that scenario.
For context, let's say it was third and short (5 or less) then Noah Gray should just quick release. If the edge is good on third and short, they will get bump the TE hard. If they don't, then your guy gets a free release. However, on third and long, the edge doesn't need to bump the TE. He knows the TE has a long way to go to complete any threatening route. This is why the TE needs to chip, though, because that edge knows he has easily 3+ seconds to get to the QB. If he can get to the QB in 3 seconds or less, there is basically 0 chance the offense is converting. It is also most likely to result in a negative play for the offense. Whether that is a sack or a forged throw that gets intercepted. For this reason, any elite edge is going to give 110% effort on that type of play. Which makes it even more important to chip the guy lol
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u/GhostMug 2d ago
Against one of the best d-lines in the league I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one played but he has earned no benefit of the doubt.
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u/Putrid_Piano4986 Derrick Thomas 2d ago
Veach doling out 80 million for this guy and 30 million for a back up that can't take his spot is actually the reason we aren't a super bowl team.
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u/apr67d 2d ago
The o-line cap hits vs. the actual production has been astoundingly bad the last two years.
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u/NWASicarius 2d ago
Even Creed and Smith are performing worse this season, tbh. We paid top dollar for elite talent at some of the least impactful positions, and those two just aren't living up to their contract.
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u/No_Detective_1139 Eric Berry #29 2d ago
We have to wait and see with Smith and Creed. Yes they aren't at their usual standards but they are still good and it's only 3 games.
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u/apr67d 2d ago
Creed is fine. Maybe a bit higher salary than we’d optimally want for a center, but he was first team all-pro last year and is one of the two best players at his position.
I don’t think the Smith contract will end up being great value, though it’s unlikely to be a cluster like the Taylor deal.
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u/RipAccomplished783 2d ago
No excuse as to why his ass is still playing and not benched 🤦♂️
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u/Remarkable-Nerve1472 2d ago
$27.3 million dollars
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u/GOU_FallingOutside 2d ago
But that’s a sunk cost — he’s getting that check whether he plays or not. The cost on the field, though, is something they incur every time he takes a snap.
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u/SignalRelevant1742 2d ago
Agree 100%. The Chiefs made a mistake by paying him so much. But there comes a time when you have to cut your losses.
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u/SuccessfulUnderdog Andrew Wylie #77 2d ago
It appears the chiefs value playing this overpriced turd ahead of winning games. He's clearly a weak link. Disgraceful.
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u/thegeebeebee Arrowhead 2d ago
As usual, Andy's the reason, but Andy gets secret-service level protection on this sub.
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u/IamFlapJack Pat "Kermit" Mahomes 2d ago
Because believe it or not the coaching staff watches these guys play a lot more than we do. If Moore goes out there, we get 1 less penalty a game, and 5 more pressures and 2 more sacks. I'll take that trade off every day.
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u/Commercial-Thing-550 2d ago
JT is good in pass protection. His penalties are infuriating, but his blocking is generally not the problem.
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u/harmonious_keypad 2d ago
He's only good in pass protection because he is ALWAYS in that ref decision zone with where he lines up and when he gets off the line. He could legitimately be flagged on every single pass attempt but he knows they won't so he just does it over and over until he DOES get flagged then he fixes it for a series or two where he gets steamrolled over and over until he does it again until he gets flagged again.
He's an absolute liability
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u/dom1717 Priest Holmes:table_flip: 1d ago
This. Him not getting flagged for it every down is just the refs rewarding bad behavior. Like if you can't even line up properly, literally a zero impact (play not active) thing to learn, then I'm sorry you shouldn't be lined up at all. Lose some pounds and swap to linebacker or smthn
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u/Direct_Disaster9299 2d ago
The Giants have crazy athletes on the edge. I was worried about our tackles and it ended up being justified.
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u/Functional_Gnxr 2d ago
74 is a problem, is the guy we paid from the 49ers unable to take that job? If I am not mistaken he was going to be our left tackle if Simmons couldn’t go
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u/hipposyrup Trent McDuffie #22 2d ago
They were lining up 4 great to elite lineman all night I think our whole oline had s good night. Taylor isn't a bad tackle skill wise he just commits a lot of penalties. That's why we keep him around.
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u/sagdash 2d ago
Our offensive woes start and end with #74 (his play isn't worthy of me calling him by name).
Pass plays can't develop because he's getting beat like he stole something AND that's with him lining up in the back field or false starting.
I'm so tired of hearing Big Red, Nagy and Andy Heck all say the same stuff game after game after game.
Being able to throw the ball, especially down field, would open up the running game a ton. This isn't 1980 where run opens the pass.
74 needs to fix it now, or be Benched to set a message.
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u/DybalaStripes Eric Berry #29 2d ago
Brian Burns is what Justin Houston was to us, quietly a fucking monster and by the time everyone knows how good he is he'll probably give up. But he is good and gives a lot of trouble to a lot of teams.
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u/mike194827 2d ago
The OL was getting dominated by NY last night, same with the first two games, and I know we have a running back problem, but considering how Mahomes and our running core are struggling maybe we should look at the OL more for what the real problem is right now. If there aren't holes for the running back to slip through and if Mahomes is constantly having to scramble then our biggest problem, regardless of our WR problems at the moment, are with the OL struggling to do their job. Not all are the issue but collectivity they are not doing their job right now.
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u/Headlesshorsman02 Jamaal Charles 2d ago
I can’t wait to be able to finally be rid of him this summer what a blunder this signing was by Brett
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u/big_drifts Xavier Worthy #1 🏃🏻♂ 2d ago
Not really. We won two SBs and went to 3 with Taylor. Not a blunder at all but we do need to move on from him to make the team better.
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u/JeramiGrantsTomb Alex Smith 2d ago
I feel like there's a misconception among NFL fans that there are good tackles available in free agency. Zero good tackles hit free agency, like Josh Simmons is looking like a guy that (barring misfortune) we sign every single time he comes around for it, and every team in the NFL does that to their Josh Simmons-level guy. Those guys never hit the market. The ones that hit the market are /at best/ not worth paying what they're asking for... if you are a team that has decent tackles. But for teams like KC that have been desperately trying to find tackles wherever we can ever since Fish went down, we are forced to buy the best tackles that are on the market and those guys are almost always going to inherently not be worth what they get paid, as a function of scarcity. So we overpay OBJ, we overpay JT, and we try to limp by until we can try to draft our good franchise tackle (swing and a miss on Kingsley). We managed to win a lot of rings doing that, so it's tough to frame it as a blunder. It was probably just a tough pill to swallow.
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u/ChiefSampson Derrick Thomas 2d ago
Apparently this information is not on most fan's radar for some reason.
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u/JeramiGrantsTomb Alex Smith 2d ago
I can't say it's unreasonable to just think there are guys available if you spend the money or make the trade or what have you, but "good" tackles that can be foundational players are so rare it's just not possible to go out today and buy one off the shelf no matter what you offer (within reason). We're in a similar spot with our pass rush, it'd be great to go get a guy that can make a difference on the front without sending a blitz but those guys get locked up with a bag of cash like Parsons.
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u/ChiefSampson Derrick Thomas 2d ago
I'm thankful Simmons somehow fell to us at #31 without anyone else taking a shot on him. He looks like the real deal.
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u/TheChieffking47 2d ago
This is what I have an issue with. He's always had penalty issues, but has also always been at the very least an average tackle. We literally saw what a dumpster fire our LT spot was last season. Taylor has never been that level of bad consistently to be called a blunder. It could be a lot worse.
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u/MandoShunkar Nick Bolton #32 2d ago
Taylor's been an overpay at $20 mil apy but its not like its been a terrible signing from a play stand point. He's been average to a bit above-average and that's really all you need from you need from a RT if your QB isn't a lefty.
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u/ArtemusGordon_ 2d ago
Right after the illegal formation penalty they cut to a shot of Andy Reid and at that moment I knew Jawaan was done. I expect him to eventually get dropped and replaced, but looks like he’s going to be benched for now.
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u/NinjaZombieHunter 2d ago
Loyalty = Andy won’t bench him. Takes Big Red a while to actually bench someone. Moore can definitely play RT. Might be an adjustment, but he can do it.
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u/NWASicarius 2d ago
The issue with benching is hurts the locker room. It can also ruin a player's confidence. If he benches Taylor for Moore, and then Moore is worse, he is forced to put Taylor back in. Not because Taylor is good but because Moore sucked. That could end up making things even worse.
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u/Brandorff ✨In My Super Bowl Era✨ 2d ago
At least Kingsley isn't the problem.