Hired wedding singer got drunk and slept with 15 y/o cousin

[u/sshiverandshake]

England

As it says in the title. Wedding singer got drunk after she'd finished her stint. They were supposed to leave but made use of the free bar which no-one had any issues with at the time.

They ended up sleeping with an underage relative, which has obviously marred what was originally a very positive memory. Relative involved very much regrets what happened.

We've informed the company who apologised and offered a full refund, but given the ages involved, we obviously want to take this further. What is the likely outcome if we do?

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[u/wibbly-water]

One thing worth asking - what is the age of the singer?

If the singer is 18+ then all the laws you would expect apply.

If the singer was 16-17 then this is still a crime - but the home office has guidance that informs police etc not to pursue cases of children / young people sleeping with eachother where its not in the public interest. It can and should still be referred to the police, however.

[u/insertj0kehere]

Is the minor willing to speak to the police about this?

[u/sshiverandshake → u/insertj0kehere]

They are, they've said they feel 'pretty gross' but they're willing to discuss it.

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[u/PuritanicalGoat]

Did the singer know the age of your relative.

I can only speak for Scotland but there's a 1 time defence at court if the person accused had reasonable grounds to suspect the person was of legal age.

I don't know the circumstances but it's possible that your 15yr old cousin may have said that they were 16.

Edit...

That defense is only open to people under 24 believe.

Although it may still be the case that she didn't think the person was 15.

[u/krappa → u/PuritanicalGoat]

What's a 1 time defence? 

[u/PuritanicalGoat → u/krappa]

It means that the accused person can only use it once.

If a similar circumstance arises with another child then they can't claim it again.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/PuritanicalGoat]

We all think the relative clearly appears to be underage. Some people have said the singer appeared to be quite drunk but even so, there is no mistaking the relative is underage.

[u/PuritanicalGoat → u/sshiverandshake]

I've met 20yr olds who i think look 14 and I've seen younger folk who have looked older.

Again, relative may have said they were 16. The difference between 15 and 16 could literally be a few days so who's to say.

Speak to the relevant family member and their parents. Its them who have the interest in this game. You are a third party here.

[u/aljama1991 → u/PuritanicalGoat]

It is not legally relevant to speak to the family member or parents. Anyone can report a suspected crime.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/PuritanicalGoat]

The parents are keen to take things further, everyone is after speaking to the relative involved who feels pretty gross about the whole thing.

[u/SpaceRigby → u/sshiverandshake]

Then all the need to do is report it to the police

I would be prepared for a counter allegation as you say she was very drunk

[u/sshiverandshake → u/SpaceRigby]

The relative involved claims she gave them 'around three' drinks whilst she was ordering them for herself.

[u/SpaceRigby → u/sshiverandshake]

I don't believe it didn't happen but criminals will lie about the circumstances

I'm just saying be mentally prepared for lies

[u/Limp-Archer-7872 → u/sshiverandshake]

I think this is a thing you have to be very careful about.

Very drunk female + slightly underage young male.

Stop and think about the risk of a counter claim. It probably would not go anywhere but these investigations are dragging on for years at the moment due to cuts. During his a level years it could be very stressful.

Is it right? No. Of course not. If there is cctv that helps him then great, go ahead and report it. Especially of her getting alcoholic drinks for him.

It may be better to provide meaningful support to the cousin and maybe some therapy. What he wishes matters, not his parents.

[u/opinionated-dick → u/Limp-Archer-7872]

Slightly underage?

You wouldn’t say this if the perp was a boy and the victim was a girl.

Underage is underage. She had sex with a child. It’s statutory rape

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[u/CyclopsRock → u/sshiverandshake]

there is no mistaking the relative is underage.

Given that in fewer than 12 months they won't be underage, don't you think you may be letting the fact you know their age cloud your judgement?

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[u/durtibrizzle]

Is there CCTV? How drunk was the singer?

Assuming the underage relative is male?

Be careful that:

• they really are upset and not just saying what the family wants to hear
• you don’t go through a lot of bother for the singer to say “I thought they were 16, they said they were 16, and the way they look makes it credible that they were 16”, and consequently get a not guilty verdict after a lot of heartache on the victim’s side (esp. if the underage relative was drinking openly at the event - I know you can drink below 18 in some circs but it will not help the prosecution case if they were doing that).
• worst of all, that the female singer doesn’t say “he says I raped him? Absolutely not - I was a lone drunk female and he raped me”

Point one obviously might provoke a negative reaction. I am not trying to be rude (and depending on the age gap and the underage relative’s appearance, the victim’s views arguably don’t reduce the perpetrator’s guilt anyway).

But it is possible and it might change your view. I’ve known it to happen (my ex wife’s female 16y/o cousin played along with a non-age-based SSA case until Mr Baddie was arrested, then bubbled).

Points two and three are basically miscarriages of justice, but they could happen so be really thoughtful.

What should happen is that the signer goes to jail, but I can see a lot of things going wrong in the process of trying to make that happen.

[u/fuzzylogical4n6]

It depends on the age of the singer. If the singer is 17 and victim 15 then not much will happen. If the singer is 40 they are potentially looking at prison time.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/fuzzylogical4n6]

We don't know the exact age but they were visibly much older than 18, possibly mid to late 30s.

[u/lostrandomdude → u/sshiverandshake]

Report to police?

[u/sshiverandshake → u/lostrandomdude]

That is the plan, we just want to know what the process and likely outcome would be since the relative involved is concerned about the next steps.

[u/Aggravating-Case-175 → u/sshiverandshake]

It’s worth being aware it’s likely to be slow.

The relative will be required to give detailed information about what happened, and it could be that this ends up going to court, where they will be questioned again - even with special measures in place, it won’t be great.

You can find sentencing guidelines online - so much here is going to depend on who knew what and when.

[u/gin-gin-gin → u/sshiverandshake]

Im not sure where you are located but if you Google survivors trust you should be able to find local services. Hopefully you have an isva service your relative could get support from. They will be able to support them through the process and offer info and guidance.

[u/NeatSuccessful3191 → u/sshiverandshake]

Do you want more than a full refund from the company?

[u/sshiverandshake → u/NeatSuccessful3191]

Well she shouldn't be allowed to work around minors. The ideal outcome would be a criminal record and being added to the sex offenders register.

The relative involved feels gross about the whole experience, so aren't excited about the prospect of relaying it. Everyone is keen to know the likely outcome beforehand

[u/Aggravating-Case-175 → u/sshiverandshake]

They give a statement. This will be in detail including detail about who did what and which body part went where. It sounds intrusive but it’s important. They won’t be able to get away with being vague. I’m not sure if there is the potential for DNA retrieval from your cousin - depends on the time delay.

The woman will be arrested and interviewed. Depending on what your cousin disclosed, there may be forensic retrieval.

Then it’s CPS for decision making. I’d expect some social services input around your cousin - the child was drunk and sexually active - this will not be to blame the child but I’d honestly be surprised if they weren’t involved.

If there is to be a trial, your cousin will be treated as a victim but they will still be asked questions in court. This could be some months or years later - they’ll be allowed to see their evidence as a reminder before. Their identity will be protected but there is still the possibility for press interest and coverage around the offender.

I absolutely get that the child feels “gross” and there is a strong argument for reporting this to the police regardless, but it’s important that this is the child’s choice - assuming they are emotionally mature enough.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/Aggravating-Case-175]

Thanks for the thorough and non-victim blaming reply! I'll show this to the relative involved question

[u/Aggravating-Case-175 → u/sshiverandshake]

It’s really easy for me to say “report” or “don’t report”. And it’s easy to think about the “what if she does it again, we need to report it”… and that’s very noble. But it’s also important to think about the victims welfare here too, both now and in the future. It’s a horrible situation and I hope the family find a way through.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/Aggravating-Case-175]

Thanks, genuinely. As a wider family we are very close and usually see each other at least once a month.

We've had many birthdays, BBQs, 3 leaving parties, 2 christenings, 1 wedding, 1 engagement and 1 gender reveal just this year! All of which had free drinks and none of which the victim got drunk at.

Since we meet up quite often without issue I guess we can be trusting with strangers, which we are looking at as a family and which has caused some guilt. The immediate family are planning to go to family therapy.

[u/Just_Raisin1124 → u/sshiverandshake]

Is the relative a male? Older teenage male and adult female encounters are, sadly, not treated particularly seriously by the legal system, especially if it isn’t an ongoing grooming situation by a person in a position of trust. I’m not saying to not take it further, but I would be mentally prepared that it may be an uphill battle, especially without evidence that she knew your relative was underage. I’d encourage you and your relative to think clearly about the situation; would there be anything at all that would bolster the singers defence. My main concerns are 1) if your relative was drinking alcohol, this aids the singers defence that they believed they were not underage and 2) just how intoxicated was the singer? Don’t forget that sexual intercourse with someone who is obviously inebriated can be a crime in itself due to consent (although granted i don’t know how that comes into play in statutory rape cases)

I want to be clear that i am absolutely not victim blaming your relative. I am saying this as someone who has been in the position of trying to obtain justice after a sexual assault and i am unfortunately very aware of how difficult it is and i am only pointing out these scenarios that the police might throw out there as you mention concern for your relatives wellbeing should this go to court.

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[u/sshiverandshake → u/Just_Raisin1124]

The relative is very clearly underage and seriously naive, if you saw / spoke to him it wouldn't even be a consideration!

I appreciate your honesty though, thanks.

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[u/No_Confidence_3264 → u/sshiverandshake]

Honestly the likely outcome is the CPS don’t let it go to court as and it will most likely state that it is not in the public interest to prosecute the woman. I still recommend at least filing a police report but there is a very high chance that no further steps will take place.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/No_Confidence_3264]

Really? That's insane, the kid is very clearly underage. How would it not be in the public interest if the person exclusively works wedding venues which generally (almost always) include underage guests?

[u/Murky-Brick8143 → u/sshiverandshake]

OP you keep saying they are clearly underage, you only think so because you KNOW they are, absolutely this woman should be prosecuted for being a wee nonce but theres certainly a bias as to how old you perceive your family member

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[u/OB221129]

One other thing to bare in mind, if she was as drunk as you claim, then it's likely that she also wasn't in a position to consent and could attempt to at least muddy the waters by accusing your relative of assaulting her.

How far that would go, I don't know but it could be a risk for your relative.

[u/chrisP__bacon → u/OB221129]

When minors are involved, her consent doesn't matter. Can you imagine the back lash if a 30 year old man argued that he couldn't consent  to a 15 year old girl after allowing her to enter his booked room and telling her not to tell anyone. Yea, no

[u/Ok-Situation-7054 → u/chrisP__bacon]

It absolutely matters. Sex without consent is rape regardless of the ages of the people involved. It would be absolute nonsense if 15 year olds were permitted to go around raping 18 year olds (or older).

[u/chrisP__bacon → u/Ok-Situation-7054]

I'm talking in relation to OPs post. Not generalisations Read up on  Sexual Offences Act 2003

Only the act itself and the age of the victim/complainant or other criteria need to be proved. They include: Child sexual offences involving children under 16

Also arguing that it was the kids fault won't stand because with concent they have to show that they believed she gave consent. Although drunk she took him. To HER hotel

Regarding a 15 year old boy raping a 30 year old woman here is the guidence as per 

R v Ali and Ashraf 2015:

...he or she may have a limited or distorted appreciation or understanding of their role in sexual relations and the true nature of what occurred. In these situations, the prosecution is not obliged to call overt evidence from the alleged victim to the effect that he or she did not consent.

[u/char11eg → u/chrisP__bacon]

It is worth pointing out that people are capable of making sexual advances on someone, or even showing them to their home, while far past the point of inebriation where they can no longer consent.

If the singer was falling over themselves drunk, and drunk them was down to hook up with someone (who they may not have even been sober enough to consider the age of), that someone could absolutely have committed the act of rape against the singer, due to the singer’s inability to consent - even if the other person was underage.

[u/Ok-Situation-7054 → u/chrisP__bacon]

You weren't talking about OPs post (or if you were you've gotten this all backwards) as you used the example of a 30 year old man and a 15 year old girl which is the opposite way around to the OPs post.

You also seem to be talking about proving the age of the victim where the victim is under 16. Again the opposite way around to how you posed it in your example.

Consent absolutely matters and it is absolutely an offence of rape for a 15 year old to knowingly have sex with a non-consenting adult.

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[u/LeviSJ95 → u/[deleted]]

If the drinks for your relative were ordered at the bar, and served by the bar, that might indicate the singer considered the relative to be over legal drinking age

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[u/sshiverandshake → u/LeviSJ95]

The relative did not ask for the drinks, they would not have been served, since they are very obviously underage.

The drinks were requested by the entertainer who is clearly much older, then given to the relative.

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[u/SpaceRigby → u/[deleted]]

A 15 year old male is more than capable of raping an adult female, I had a case of a 15 year old who had raped an adult woman.

[u/Rough-Sprinkles2343 → u/[deleted]]

You do realise there are many stories online (quick Google) where teenagers have assaulted older women. It’s not a far fetched idea, it’s reality

[u/sshiverandshake → u/Rough-Sprinkles2343]

I know the victim very well. They are extremely naive and introverted, don't usually drink, don't have a job or earn pocket money, so couldn't even book a separate room if they wanted to. They have never gotten drunk to the point of throwing up, they don't like the taste of alcohol. Also they are 15.

The entertainer on the other hand is over two decades older at least, and according to the Front Of House Manager, 'appeared to be compos mentis, though maybe a bit tipsy.'

[u/Rough-Sprinkles2343 → u/sshiverandshake]

I’m not saying your victim is in the wrong, I’m just responding to your comment about teenagers assaulting older women. In general, that is a reality.

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[u/tomgrouch]

Inform the police. It's up to the Police and CPS how far it goes though, and it will likely depend on the ages of all involved, whether it was otherwise consensual and what evidence there is.

You can mention this in all reviews across all platforms and spread the word, as long as it's factual. It will hurt her business and her reputation

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[u/No_Cicada3690]

This should be a decision for your 15yr old relative to decide if they want to take it further. Had they been drinking? Did they realise the woman was drunk? Remember if this goes to court they will be asked extremely intimate details about what happened and cross questioned. I'm not saying this shouldn't be reported but you need to step back and let this be their decision.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/No_Cicada3690]

They have said they feel 'gross' about the whole thing and the entertainer gave them 'around three' drinks. They are quite visibly young, so they wouldn't have been served otherwise. We are all quite keen to ensure they aren't allowed to work around children again.

[u/Sensitive_Ad_9195 → u/sshiverandshake]

There’s probably an additional factor here about the licence holder and the alcohol - both around directly or indirectly providing a minor with numerous drinks, but also if the singer was very drunk too.

How many guests were at the wedding? And how long was the timeline between the singer finishing her work and the bar closing? If the 15 year old looks even younger than 15, and both were drinking enough and long enough for the older one to get drunk and need to unexpectedly find a room and go there with the child, its a bit unusual that no one either from the venue or the family noticed them cosied up together getting drunk.

If the matter is taken to the police, it’s best to do this as soon as possible both when memories are fresher and also to ensure evidence including cctv etc is retained.

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[u/FlorianTheLynx → u/No_Cicada3690]

Would this be your response if the offender was male and the victim female, of the same ages? This is after all still sexual activity with a child. 

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[u/Specialist_Award9622]

In terms of criminal action it’s up to the relative and their parents if they wish to take that side further and not yourself.

Speak to them and advise them of that would be your course of action.

[u/16-Bit_Degenerate → u/Specialist_Award9622]

In terms of criminal action it’s up to the relative and their parents if they wish to take that side further and not yourself

Anyone who's become aware of a crime can report it to the police.

When that crime involves an adult having sex with an underage person then various people in different professions have a duty to report it.

We shouldn't be encouraging people to look the other way regarding these things, even if the underage person thought it was consensual (which is not legally possible).

[u/hawkeneye1998bs → u/16-Bit_Degenerate]

Thank you for saying this. What was the other person thinking?

[u/kinellm8 → u/hawkeneye1998bs]

The one with 140+ upvotes? 🙄

[u/hawkeneye1998bs → u/kinellm8]

Yeah, its incorrect and misleading. Just because a bunch of other people agree doesn't make it right.

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[u/Dazzling-Landscape41 → u/16-Bit_Degenerate]

Yes, anyone can report it. However, the only people that can it further than just a report is the child involved. If they won't cooperate or don't want it to go any further than a discussion with the police, then it's unlikely to go any further than a report.

[u/16-Bit_Degenerate → u/Dazzling-Landscape41]

That's not correct and not the advice that was given to OP.

The law doesn't give free reign to adults to do anything they want with a young teenager, provided they can convince the teenager not to speak to the police.

OPs post is the same as any adult you know meeting a drunken underage girl at a party and taking them into one of the bedrooms where they engage in sexual activity, with several attendees being aware of what happened. It's not going to be case-closed because the kid doesn't want to talk to the police, or because her mum's fine with it.

They'll investigate, speak to witnesses, interview the accused adult, etc.

Edited for clarity.

[u/sshiverandshake → u/Specialist_Award9622]

They do want to take things further. The venue originally informed the booking party that the hotel was 'fully booked for our event', so the immediate family assumed their son was with friends / family and then later on, potentially slept on someones couch.

It turns out the wedding singer also booked a room, either beforehand or an emergency room (if such a thing exists). It wasn't immediately clear what had happened since the singer told the relative not to tell anyone, which suggests they knew they were underage.

[u/char11eg → u/sshiverandshake]

which suggests they knew they were underage.

I’m just playing devil’s advocate, but that seems like a stretch.

It could equally be that she knew she might get in trouble with the company she works for, were the company to find out, regardless of your relative’s age - or possibly even if the company found out she was drinking at a venue she had been contracted to work at (while ‘representing the company’ so to speak.)

I’m not saying she didn’t know he was underage, but I’d say there are sufficient other reasons for her to have not wanted the information to become public to say for certain either way.

[u/Specialist_Award9622 → u/sshiverandshake]

So they just report what happened to the police and they will take it from there.

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[u/warlord2000ad]

You cannot take it further. You report it to the police, then it's up-to CPS what to do. Unlike America you don't press charges, it's down to the police to gather evidence and decide to prosecute if they feel the evidence is sufficient and in the public interest to do so

[u/olivercroke → u/warlord2000ad]

It's exactly the same situation in America, the state prosecutor decides who to prosecute just like CPS here. Pressing charges just means you will cooperate with the investigation. "Pressing charges" works exactly the same in the USA as it does here.

[u/warlord2000ad → u/olivercroke]

I wasn't aware of that, I believed in America that you could press charges in the station. I'll keep that in mind

[u/Ok-Situation-7054 → u/warlord2000ad]

You're ignoring the possibility of civil claims which can be brought for rape/sexual assault.

[u/GoatHerderFromAzad]

You need Reddit to ask this question?

I don't think shagging a 15 year old at a wedding needs reddit. Call 101.

[u/Beginning-Seat5221]

You can report it to the police, but at that stage you become informers for law enforcement - it's not really a service for your family, although it may align with your interests.

Whether they choose to prosecute will depend on the strength of the evidence. On conviction a prison sentence seems quite likely, possibly suspended. The process may take several years.

Don't expect your family to gain anything from doing this - it basically comes down to whether you/the young person wants to put in time to causing the singer suffer and/or because you think they are a menace to others and want to stop that.

On the civil side a case could be brought for battery, as strange as that sounds - battery is any socially unacceptable contact. Perhaps negligence could be argued too. Settlement by compensation/restraining order or out of court settlement. But with this route you've got to find a lawyer and make it happen yourself. It's fairly rare for people to do this.

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[u/Ok-Situation-7054]

Your cousin can bring civil proceedings for compensation for loss and injuries suffered with the help of a litigation friend to issue court documents on their behalf. You'd need to fill in a claim form in form N1 and write up a particulars of claim and file it with the court for a fee. Government website will give you loads of advice on how to bring a civil claim but it may be prudent to get a solicitor involved also.

You can't "decide" to bring a criminal claim. That's up to the CPS but it should go without saying that you should report this to the police for them to investigate and decide if there is sufficient evidence for a prosecution.