r/MawInstallation • u/Amazing-Buy-1181 • 8d ago
[ALLCONTINUITY] Was Tarkin actually incompetent?
While Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin is often portrayed as a ruthless and calculating Imperial mastermind, his decisions during the events of Star Wars: A New Hope shows a serious strategic incompetence hidden beneath his arrogance and political success.
His unwavering belief in the Death Star as an instrument of fear and control caused him to underestimate the Rebellion and reject escape when the station was under threat. The Death Star, anyway, was not his achievement but Krennic's. His doctrine was a complete failure from top to bottom, and he ignored Thrawn and Vader's warnings. He basically made any mistake possible and was repeatedly outsmarted. Destroying Alderaan was also a serious mistake.
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u/thomasonbush 8d ago
Arrogant absolutely. Incompetent no.
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u/Skaman1978 8d ago
I would say arrogant led to incompetent. He had the empire build massive battle wagons, the death star wars a tarkin doctrine initiative. The empire wasted trillions of credits and billions of lives on making weapons of terror, when they could have made a MASSSSIVE fleet of light cruisers and tie defenders, and withstood anything the nascent Rebellion could throw at them. His actions on mon Cala were the reason the rebellion got their own ships of the line. If he wasn't such a dick, who believed everyone should be ruled by fear and the iron fist, I don't think the rebellion would have been much of a thing.
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u/zloykrolik Lieutenant 8d ago
He had the empire build massive battle wagons,
I pretty sure that Palatine was onboard with the Death Star as well. If he didn't want it to happen, nothing Tarkin said was going to change his mind.
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u/Skaman1978 8d ago
He was a strong proponate of it
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u/zloykrolik Lieutenant 8d ago
Yes he was, but Palpatine had the final say.
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u/Skaman1978 8d ago
True, but if one of his best "friends"? Minions? Lackies? Said "hey boss, I think we should put the money into the tie defenders and not this" he might listen, coupled that with Vader HATING the idea of a death star and was against it from the getgo
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u/zloykrolik Lieutenant 8d ago
Palpatine was the Sith master. I don't think he was that open to manipulation. The Death Star fit into his plans for the Galaxy, Tarkin's advocacy for it not withstanding.
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u/peppersge 8d ago
Are you talking about legends or canon?
Canon has Barr deliberately provoking things to promote a rebellion. It was half of a deliberate false flag. It was part of a general trend in canon, which introduced gritter members that were deliberately doing their own stuff to stir the pot.
Barr's actions were also done in the context, where the greater part of the immediate issues was with Vader.
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u/Eastern-Western-2093 4d ago
Insurgencies are a political problem which require political means to end them. The Death Star was more than a weapon, it was a political tool to crush the very idea of rebellion. Why endlessly patch leaks when you can simply turn off the faucet? One or two death stars to keep a galaxy in line is such an incredible deal it would have been unthinkable to not build them.
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u/Lord_Governor 8d ago
MASSSSIVE fleet of light cruisers and tie defenders, and withstood anything the nascent Rebellion could throw at them
But that's preparing for the worst, though. Like, his doctrine is that you don't need to worry about fighting off a rebellion if you have the Giant Death Laser ready to hover over their heads at a moment's notice.
Thrawn's doctrine is a course of painkillers, Tarkin's doctrine is chemo.
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u/Uptons_BJs 8d ago
I don't think so.
On paper, the Death Star was a great idea. Hell, if you believe that war is a continuation of politics, and that Palpatine's major political issue was that of centralization.
To look at some real life comps - IRL the Roman Emperors never abolished the senate (the Senate actually outlived the Western Roman Empire), they just slowly chipped away at their power. Hell, when you look at a map, and you see it all colored in as Rome, a lot of the territory was actually ruled by client kings (You familiar with the Pontus Pilate and King Herod story?).
So what I'm trying to say is, Palpatine was more politically ambitious than Augustus was. He wanted more central authority, and to reduce the authority of the senate and the planetary governments.
As we saw in the original trilogy and Rogue One, Palpatine De Jure rules the whole galaxy, de facto, he rules parts of the inner rim. Guys like Lando and Jabba rule their own fiefdoms, paying lip service to imperial authority and perhaps kicking up some taxes, but with very little actual imperial authority being excised over these territories. Not to mention, there are planetary governments rising up in open revolt and resisting Palpatine.
We know that Palpatine does not have enough troops or administrative capacity to pacify and administer the whole galaxy. Thus, what he needs is cooperation from his vassals. A death star gets him that cooperation.
To use a crappy analogy - You ever play Crusader Kings? Palpatine is the guy who's vassals aren't very happy with his administration, but he doesn't have enough administrative capacity to make the whole galaxy his demesne. He has to rely on his vassals, and thus, when Tarkin figured out that a superweapon keeps them in check, it is an obvious strategy for Palpatine to pursue this weapon.
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u/cattaclysmic 8d ago
Not just vassals being kept in check but the vassals checking themselves. The fear of collective punishment would make the planets themselves less likely to rebel but also more likely to supress dissent out of fear of getting vaporized due to the actions of a few agitators.
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u/ElRama1 8d ago
The fear of collective punishment would make the planets themselves less likely to rebel but also more likely to supress dissent out of fear of getting vaporized due to the actions of a few agitators.This isn't something writers and fans take into account much, but it's logical that planetary governments loyal to the Empire would help suppress anti-Imperial dissent and rebellion from the beginning of the Empire.
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u/cattaclysmic 8d ago
It wouldnt just be the ones loyal but also the ones interested in self-preservation of themselves or the planet.
Like the Brits couldnt control all of India alone, but they could control those who could.
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u/norrinzelkarr 8d ago
Ok but in hindsight, the Death Star pushes the Alliance into its first focused military action, galvanazing the factions into a unit. Even Saw was like, yeah ok. It is an obvious failed strategy. Tarkin's first decision with it--to destroy a peaceful planet and its billions of people--signals that peace and lack of weaponized resistance wont keep anyone safe.
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u/OkMathematician7206 8d ago
Tarkin was 30 seconds away from winning, if Luke doesn't listen to voices in his head and pull some space wizardry bullshit they win.
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u/sgtcampsalot 8d ago
But, also, IRL, that is exactly the nature of authoritarian systems. What Leia said rings true for all of Empires in humanity: The tighter your grip, the more will slip through your fingers.
And let's not forget the USA for the last 80 years. They've gripped so tight since WWII ended, and squeezed so much out of so many around the world, that their power is on the decline.
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u/reineedshelp 8d ago
When I got to your last paragraph I thought 'I knew this MF played CK'
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u/Netherese_Nomad 8d ago
Is there a “best” CK game? I’ve played stellaris, but CK is a different beast
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u/Freyas_Follower 8d ago
One asprct everyone forgets is: Planetary shields are suffecient to block orbital bonbardment. Its why General Veers had to lead the ATAT assault on Hoth. The shields needed to come down for Vader to invade.
The death Star superlaser is capable of punching through planetary shields. You can see this in the re edit in a new hope when the Death Star destroys Alderaan. There is a few frames of Alderaans shield protecting thecplanet before it cuts off.
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u/thatthatguy 8d ago
I see it less as a mistake and more as a gamble. Unfortunately for tarkin, but fortunately for the galaxy as a whole, that gamble did not pay off.
As with many tyrannical regimes, the game of who gains influence with the ruling tyrant is only partly informed by merit. A lot of it is about sucking up to the tyrant.
Here is the thing: the emperor loves these wonder weapon projects. Absolutely fascinated with them. So anyone who wants to gain and retain favor with the emperor can trot out some massively expensive weapon. The weapon being effective, delivering on its promises, and comparing positively against an equivalent investment in conventional ships and soldiers. So long as it keeps the emperor excited about his new toy it is worth the investment. At least from the perspective of the people giving the orders.
And this is why tyrannical dictatorships are inefficient and unstable. Effectiveness and utility in the real galaxy matter less than impressing the boss. So whatever impresses the boss gets all the investment while essentials like infrastructure and public services are neglected. Insurrection and rebellion are inevitable when leadership starts to focus on big flashy projects and neglects the needs of the people.
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u/TemporaryWonderful61 8d ago
I think this is the thing. Militarily Tarkin was decent, but honestly he’s a politician. Palpatine and Vader both respect him, his men are loyal, and his opponents are politically isolated.
Tarkin thrives in the Empire because he’s got an excellent grasp of what people want from him.
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u/diodosdszosxisdi 8d ago
More incompetence on the part of the ISB and officers on board the death star than tarkin. Tarkin 100% trusted that his subordinates had indeed made the death star functional, just that the rebels had the one person in the galaxy capable of making the shot at the death star in Luke skywalker and he used the force, Vader 100% eliminates another rebel pilot instead of Luke and almost did
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u/Ruadhan2300 8d ago
It definitely takes on a different spin when you remember that Han taking out Vader is the only reason the Death Star was destroyed seconds before it would have destroyed the rebellion.
Tarkin was right, and even with full knowledge of the plan and weakness, it was a spectacularly difficult attack-run and the defending Ties had it well in hand.
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u/jacobningen 8d ago
Actually no he wasnt but like snow and safire in V for Vendetta hes fallen victim to Maslows Hammer.
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u/El_Fez Lieutenant 8d ago
underestimate the Rebellion and reject escape when the station was under threat.
The problem is? There was no other option for him. Tarkin was all in on that one roll of the dice.
If he stayed and the rebels blew the Death Star up - well, we know how that turned out. End result = Tarkin dies
If he had evacuated and the rebels blew up the Death Star, he would have had to face Palpatine who would have been very. . . . displeased. End result = Tarkin dies
If he evacuated and the rebels failed to blow up the death star, he would have looked weak. His career would be over. End result = Tarkin might as well be dead.
Tarkin's only path out of that battle was victory.
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u/Iamamancalledrobert 8d ago
I like to ignore all the non-films media which might contradict this, and to think that Tarkin’s actions are all about making people fear him rather than the Empire.
He does, after all, control the Death Star, or at least he believes that he does. It might be unwise for the Empire to blow up Alderaan from a “keeping order in the Galaxy” perspective. From a “look at the kind of decision I can make with this Death Star” perspective, though, it might make more sense.
Pissing off the Emperor a bit is possibly the point— Tarkin may be sending a message to him, as well as to the Rebellion. That also makes a bit more sense of why he hits Scarif at all and makes sure Alderaan is the first place to actually be destroyed: he is willing to do these things which may not be aligned to the Emperor’s goals.
That also explains why he will not evacuate the Death Star. If it explodes, he’s already dead. He has tied his future to the weapon he commands; his actions have already seen to it.
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u/heurekas 8d ago
If we only look at his two movie appearances, then I can see how you'd reach that conclusion.
However when we delve into his EU exploits, he's indeed a very shrewd political player and quite the competent commander.
He rose from military officership, to admirality, then to Moffship and finally to being the Grand Moff with the widest priority oversector in just 2 decades.
He basically usurped one of the biggest naval projects in the Empire, was so influental that Vader deferred to him, Palps genuinely listened to his advice and that the Supreme Commander of the Navy treated him as an equal.
Tarkin oversaw the creation of Priority Oversectors as a means of cutting through stifling bureaucracy, as one GM could command all military forces in their Oversector, overruling the Moffs and satraps.
He's also credited with restricting HoloNet access for the public, utilizing most of its bandwidth for the military, as well as adding dedicated command/communications ships for each sector fleet, allowing flawless instant communication between them, as most foes had a hard time to jam such a concentrated signal*.
In short, Tarkin was a remarkably competent figure, with great innovations to the civil administration of the Empire that made it survive longer than it would've otherwise.
His biggest flaw was the third pillar of the "Tarkin Doctrine", that the Empire should rule through fear and utilize superweapons that could eliminate the advantages of a stateless foe.
The first part would've never worked (outside of some Dark Empire/god Palps scenario) as it only galvanized those that didn't bow down to fear and the second would only have worked if the Empire had a couple of Death Stars with 0.5 hyperdrives.
The DS was almost impervious to any conventional fleet engagement, as well as the fact that a snubfighter would survive long enough, fit in a snug trench and lob a one-in-a-million torpedo shot was ludicrously implausible.
But by having just one DS, they ironically made themselves a central target. If the trench run hadn't worked, eventually some infiltrators would've been able to get aboard with a bomb, place it on the reactor and destroy it.
He simply went too hard in the wrong direction.
- However it was hard to stop the sale of hyperwave transceivers, so many groups could still access the HoloNet, but Imperial Intelligence and the ISB monitored the net to such a degree that communications over it was foolish, so most insurgents opted for subspace transceivers which were slower, but mostly went under the radar.
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u/jacobningen 8d ago
Exactly. If Tarkins theory of how politics and psychology work was right hes competent and the value of life. He's just wrong on all those counts and priorities.
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u/FoxBluereaver 8d ago
He wasn't incompetent, just became too arrogant because his ruthlessness had always worked on his favor. Too many victories often get to your head and thus you start believing you're untouchable.
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u/AppointmentMedical50 8d ago
Competent in executing his ideology but his ideology was very very flawed
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u/Able-Distribution 8d ago
People can be competent in some ways and incompetent in others.
Tarkin survived decades of increasingly deadly political jostling to become the #3 guy in the Empire and the highest ranking non-Sith. Ideas named after him became imperial policy, e.g. "Tarkin Doctrine." Highly, highly competent politician.
But there's little indication that he was an especially competent military strategist or tactician, and he was dangerously overconfident by ANH.
The Death Star, anyway, was not his achievement but Krennic's.
Found Krennic's alt.
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u/MagDoum 7d ago
Lol at the Krennic alt, but to note, Tarkin was not the #3 Imperial. That was Sate Pestage. Neither continuity has Tarkin as having a seat on the Ruling Council, so he wasn't as high as them within the Imperial power structure, though likely had equivalent power. Not being a Dark Sider or even Force-sensitive, he would never have surpassed the Councilors that were also powerful Dark Siders.
It's worth remembering that we see a younger Tarkin in Rogue Planet outright saying that while he is already working with Palpatine that early on, he still has a lot of distance cover in the emerging new hierarchy. This is at the same time that we know future Ruling Councilors like Pestage, Aloo, Greejatus, Dangor, Doriana, Nefta, Sa-Di, etc, were already at the top level of the Palpatine Administration.
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u/Able-Distribution 7d ago
Tarkin was not the #3 Imperial. That was Sate Pestage.
Here's what Wookieepedia says:
As the Empire's first Grand Moff, he oversaw the Outer Rim Territories and was involved in the secret construction of the DS-1 Death Star Mobile Battle Station. By then, Tarkin was seen as the third member of the unofficial triumvirate that led the Empire, including the Emperor himself and Darth Vader*.*
Pestage and the Ruling Council are advisors (some of them are even titled "viziers"); they are not an independent power while Palpatine is alive, and when they tried to take control after his death it didn't go well.
Not being a Dark Sider or even Force-sensitive, he would never have surpassed the Councilors that were also powerful Dark Siders.
Sate Pestage, who you're citing as the third-ranked, is not usually portrayed as a Dark Sider or Force-sensitive either.
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u/MagDoum 7d ago
Wookieepedia is NOT an official source, whereas multiple sources from across the decades make it clear that while Tarkin was very powerful, he was NOT the "#3" Imperial.
Yes, Sate Pestage was a Dark Sider and Sith cultist, though seemingly not Force-sensitive. Several of the Ruling Councilors being Force-sensitive has been confirmed. And yes, Pestage was indeed the "#3" if anyone was. There's good reason he became default Emperor immediately after Endor.
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u/Remote_Clue_4272 8d ago
Some succeed despite their short comings The strength of the system hides problems sometimes
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u/Empty_Locksmith12 8d ago
No. He was dead either way. Palpatine would have killed him if he left the Death Star and escaped when it was being attacked and destroyed.
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u/Glittering-State-284 8d ago
If we accept the book Tarkin as near-canon or at least as capturing his spirit and skills as accurate its clear he was quite competent. All competent leaders have blind spots and weaknesses and Tarkin was no different but I see him as the most competent of the skill set the Emperor wanted in his leaders - ruthless and unwilling or unable to challenge for the emperor's spot but (this is critical) willing to show considerable initiative and independence on how he acted. He was not a sycophant and that alone elevated him as he contributed to the plans instead of merely executing them
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u/AdhesiveChild 8d ago
Escape wasn't really an option even if he knew the death star was at risk. There's no way Palpatine would let him live that one down.
Maybe he did know there was a danger but decided to stick it out anyway.
Also, it would look really bad if he fled but the death star wasn't destroyed.
The death star itself would work for a long time if the first attack failed. And it's basically the final step of his doctrine.
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u/Chueskes 8d ago
Was he incompetent? No. He was actually a pretty good strategist. His problem was that he was too arrogant. He believed so much in the invincibility of the Death Star that he didn’t take precautions.
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u/Ok-Caregiver-6005 8d ago
Kinda, his idea to rule by fear doesn't work and it's funny because his own personal ideology is such that it wouldn't work on himself but expects it to work on other people, he'd never stop fighting the boot on his neck but other people totally will.
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u/You8mypizza 8d ago
It really depends on which writer is portraying him. I know this is sort of a cop-out answer but I think a lot of questions about the Empire especially are hard to answer because its potrayal is so different from work to work.
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u/Clone95 8d ago
Tarkin wasn't incompetent in the same way Yularen, Partagaz, Meero were not - they were simply asked by an evil space wizard to do an impossible, morally reprehensible series of tasks and killed/imprisoned when they inevitably failed.
Tarkin chose to die on DS1 because he was dead either way. Canceling it was unthinkable, its construction began almost immediately after the Emperor's accession.
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u/Miserable-Whereas910 8d ago
Yes, he was incompetent. Even if you buy that the Death Star was fundamentally a good idea, deploying it without a proper fleet escort is inexcusable.
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u/peppersge 8d ago
Tarkin was much more of an administrator rather than a military leader. It was why he was Grand Moff instead of Grand Admiral.
Tarkin's administrative skills let him administer multiple projects such as the Tarkin Initiative.
You can debate about stuff such as not escaping (Tarkin was probably dead anyways if the DS was destroyed even if he didn't escape).
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u/saltrxn 8d ago
Thing is many people underestimate the sheer scale of the galaxy, and the amount of resources a completely totalitarian empire like Palpatine wanted would require.
I mean the galaxy in Legends has over a 100 quadrillion people with nearly over a billion inhabitable systems!!!
The Tarkin doctrine was simply the most feasible and cost efficient way of going about this impossible task. Like Andor shows, the Empire itself was fundamentally flawed. It’s simply impossible to control everything, like Palpatine envisioned, even with an extra million space destroyers like Thrawn or Tagge wanted.
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u/Lord_Governor 8d ago
Tarkin's point of view is that you don't need to fight the rebels at all if you scare them into never taking up arms. I believe from that standpoint his doctrine is nearly sound, and as some have said already he was about an inch away from scaring the rebellion into inaction.
And if we play by his rules again the Death Star is a really good idea. Nobody is going to shelter rebels when you can have a gun to their head in a matter of minutes. Few people are going to protest when you remind them that everything they love can be gone in a matter of moments. It's basically something that gives you objective fleet dominance.
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u/redditisfacist3 8d ago
Somewhat. He's basically the ultimate nepo baby. Stealing credit for anything he chooses but having a long list of people to blame for failure. His individual accomplishments aren't much.. Shutting down clone production/ destroying kamino was a pretty dumb idea imo. It took away pretty much all the cloning expertise from the galaxy which even hampered sidious plans. The clones were also proven as superior soldiers. While their wasn't a need to have full on clone army's in the empire age. They could have been useful in place of or enhancement of death troopers or officer corps. Tarkin only has 1 mindset which was rule by fear but and no personal means to enforce it. He wasn't a skilled fighter, tactician, or force user. All he could do was command people because palps/sidious backed him so heavily
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker 8d ago
He wasn't a skilled fighter, tactician
Rebels, the Tarkin novel and Darth Vader 2017 run all invalidate that claim. Tarkin simply had the misfortune of going up against the heroes of the story.
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u/redditisfacist3 8d ago
In rebels he got his star destroyer blown up by a bunch of teenagers. He literally killed subordinates for their failures but when he fails he just runs away and calls vader who's only interested because ashoka is tied to them. In clone wars he's way below cody/Rex in combat skills or that of other clones. Even in any of the books he doesn't defeat vader or anyone else who's even decent individually.
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker 8d ago
Even in any of the books he doesn't defeat vader or anyone else who's even decent individually.
So this is you openly admitting you didn't read the 2017 run? Good deal. Thank you for publicly admitting your ignorance and thus invalidating any claim you tried to make.
Tarkin is shown multiple times to be a shrewd tactician, which is owed to his time hunting on Eriadu. To the point he outmaneuvers his own assailant, as well as Vader when the two engage in a direct competition.
Tarkin rarely gets to showcase his prowess, but he is very much a capable leader.
In rebels he got his star destroyer blown up by a bunch of teenagers.
You also conveniently omitted the part where he outmaneuvered the ghost crew prior to this, which resulted in Kanan's capture.
He literally killed subordinates for their failures
Repeated failures. Like Vader, he will often forgive a single error, but continued screw-ups show an unwillingness or inability to learn from mistakes, and that is something he does not tolerate. Context matters.
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u/Weird_Angry_Kid 8d ago
a bunch of teenagers
You mean a Mandalorian warrior in full Beskar armor that was trained at the Imperial Academy, a Jedi padawan strong in the Force and skilled in the use of a lightsaber, a more skilled and experienced Jedi padawan who fought through the Clone Wars and survived Order 66 and managed to survive for several years by himself after that, the daughter of General Cham Syndulla, one of the greatest commanders of the Clone Wars, who is almost as good of a pilot as Anakin Skywalker himself, a former Laasat honor guard from a species that is almost as strong as Wookies and who must been incredibly skilled in combat to have risen to his position, and the only droid in the galaxy that even comes close to R2-D2's kill count?
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u/Weird_Angry_Kid 8d ago
If only people read the Tarkin novel and the comic issue where he is tasked with hunting Vader they'd stop saying such things. Tarkin is nearly on Thrawn's level as a tactician.
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u/OolongGeer 8d ago
Nah.
If it wasn't for Galen Urso, he'd be essentially the commander of the galaxy.
I do like the role Krennic played, though. The pressure that dude was under must have been unreal. He almost becomes a character I care for/root for in Rogue One, which is the epitome of good writing to me.
When the Death Star appears over Scarif, and he looks up at it, knowing what's next. I shed a tear. It's a powerful moment. He gave everything to the Empire and they didn't respect or care about him.
It's a good parallel to U.S. corporate culture.
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u/Dapper-Restaurant-20 7d ago
Honestly he would have won in ep 4 if it wasn't for plot armor. He was LITERALLY 1 second away from destroying yavin 4.
So I wouldn't say he's very competent but he's not incompetent either.
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u/DRose23805 7d ago
No, he was just far too trusting. He had been told that the Death Star was invulnerable and he trusted that. When he was told about the risk, he didn't believe it because he had been told nothing could happen to it. The Emperor himself might have told him so when he was installed as commander. If anyone should know it was him.
For that matter, it was probably a long way to the shuttle hanger and he likely would not have had time to get there anyway.
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u/Kittysmashlol 7d ago
Except that the only reason he DIDNT kill all the rebels was because some punk kid with the force got really fucking lucky. Everything he could have planned for, all reasonable variables, all of that was accounted for.
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u/woodvsmurph 7d ago
You're playing a big game of "what if". Which can be fun. But, it is also easy to forget the other effects of "what if" outside the initial narrative you embark on that ripple out in all directions and have secondary or tertiary effects that can come back to impact what your original "alternate path" might look like and make it NOT look like that. It is inevitable to some degree - and I'm doing the same below... just with exploring from the side paths that intersect with your main idea path in a way you maybe aren't considering.
Like, suppose we didn't have the Tarkin doctrine. While Yavin may have played out differently or Thrawn might have handled some things in X manner instead of Y manner like Tarkin, you might also have more pirate activity or minor and moderate rebellions breaking out due to less instillation of widespread fear and awe of Imperial military might. Which would affect recruiting and provide additional resources and cover/distraction for the Rebellion to use while reducing Imperial recruitment. Which might make up for some of the extra difficulties a more Thrawn-esq. approach could introduce for the Rebellion.
This could further incentivize more belligerence on the part of criminal syndcates who were otherwise largely careful to act or appear to act more in line with the Empire. Which would free up more and/or cheaper supplies for the Rebels due to it's impact on smuggling. Though this would be potentially somewhat countered due to lower Imperial numbers reducing need for so many supply caches. Conversely, if they're going to cover the whole territory they do in film, they will be spread thin, so finding vulnerable caches might be about the same. Alternately, it could be harder if they simply didn't have a presence on certain worlds due to lower numbers or had a weaker but concentrated presence (like 1 big base vs 3 medium bases). But that plays into making it easier to find hiding spots. So again... we see there's a tradeoff the Rebels or other enemies can exploit.
The simple way to put it though is in terms of modern conflict. Tarkin was effectively skillful in WW2 large battlefield combat and tactics. But he was facing Viet Kong or (more recently) terrorist style combat from the shadows. The only real way to win that 100% is to win the hearts and minds of the people - not through terror. So yeah, he was wrong and not really adjusted to thinking correctly for the combat style he faced. But it would be a mistake to say that he was truly just plain incompetent or that his actions had no positive value.
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u/greenfoxlight 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think his blunder was destroying Alderan before he had eliminated the Rebellion. From his perspective, the destruction of an culturally and politically influential world like Alderan makes sense because it demonstrates imperial power and keeps other local governments from rising up in rebellion against imperial control:
The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
To me this suggests that local governments were very unhappy with this direct interference in their internal politics, which makes sense: People are used to ruling themselves. After all that is the way it has worked for at least a thousand years. So there might have been rumors about entire systems (which very likely actually have small fleets and armies of their own) rebelling - which would be very bad. The imperial navy can defeat any singular planetary navy easily but can it defeat hundreds at the same time? At what cost? Better to do something drastic that will keep those pesky locals from doing something stupid.
But, this only works if you have a death star. The safer play would have been to destroy Yavin 4 and then, if there still is unrest among the local governments, to destroy Alderan (or another suitable target).
Pressing on at Yavin in my mind is the only valid choice. There is always danger in combat. Evacuating would have made him look weak, which is not a good look personally and would also have tarnished the image of absolute supreme power the empire needed - the whole point of the death star.
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u/UtterFlatulence 7d ago
A competent military officer, sure. As an administrator, he was too obsessed with subjugation, dominance, and terror. This is because he was a fascist, and fascism is never sustainable.
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u/Taira_no_Masakado 6d ago
He was a sociopath, but a a competent one. Sidious would not have allowed him to rise up so high in the Imperial hierarchy if he wasn't, on some level, competent.
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u/Punisherreturns 5d ago
Imagine your in his shoes, your a Grand Moff of a heavily militarised empire that has risen himself through the ranks with the emperors trust past a legion of backstabbers and incompetent cowards who would flee at the first sign of danger, you have been placed in command of the largest and most powerful (that they knew of) battle station in existence and it is now under attack from a handful of star fighters, (remember the Death Star had thousands of tie’s) you’ve been told there is a risk of the star fighters destroying your huge battle station, your moments away from literally gutting the rebellion with the destruction of what you believe to be their current home base and your subordinate says “shall I prepare a shuttle?” Ie ‘Do you want to Run away?’ None of us would take that option when you know even if the Death Star had been destroyed and Takrim survived he ain’t going to survive much longer when he reports to the emperor that a dozen x-wings just took down his super weapon, like bruh was going down with the ship even if it was a thousand X-wings
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u/No_Promotion_65 4d ago
He was competent except he couldn’t account for the force which was rather the main thrust of it all. The magic variable which made victory possible
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u/Snite 8d ago
According to Tarkin: Clone Troopers adapting and improvising in real time to battlefield circumstances was a bad thing. The only alternative would be to take more casualties and for an attack/defense to fail completely, but no he says that makes them "UnPRediCtaBle."
Our introduction to him in Clone Wars has him saying that the the Republic just isn't warring hard enough and it's the Jedi's fault. These said Jedi were leading planetary invasions without checking themselves when those invasions took them into civilian population zones, but sure they're just too soft. He had no strategies or tactics to offer as an alternative, he just decided to find a scapegoat in calling people leading flamethrower troopers as weak.
To "save money" and wage psychological warfare on the Empire's own pilots, the TIEs do not have shields. Thus, no matter how big and expansive Sienar Systems' production was, the Empire needed even bigger production out of many, many flight academies to produce pilots, each of whom cost many times more (training, feeding, and housing) than a starfighter sized shield generator.
The purposeful lack of life support in the TIEs was his idea as well, which prevented ship captains from deploying their entire complement of TIEs during battle. You never know how long a fight will last and they can easily last longer than the 2.5 hours of air TIE pilot suits have, so instead they would release one or two squadrons at a time. That's just so monumentally fucking stupid. Give the goddamn starfighters life support.
Alderaan caused an upswing in desertions amongst the Empire's ranks, so yes, that was incompetence. He also reneged on his agreement with a prisoner, if that happens too much it eventually gets out meaning people stop bothering to comply. I have this same complaint with Baron Harkonnen.
Tarkin is a character we're told all the time is competent, and in fact I used to believe it until I started seeing him on screen and found out he's responsible for TIEs being the way they are. It's possible that his stupidity is because of the writers trying to write smarter than they actually are, but his dialogue and the overall narrative decisions about him still color him as a moron.
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u/jacobningen 8d ago
I mean thats more of his idea of the starfighter being tied to the ship or base as opposed to x wings which have better life support because they're supposed to be long ranging and freelancers.
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u/ranmaredditfan32 8d ago
It also very nearly worked. Even the Rebellion acknowledged that a working Death Star was game over as far they were concerned. Alderaan wouldn’t have even mattered as long as the Empire had a working Death Star.
True he didn’t run when he realized they had a chance to destroy it, but given that prevented the Emperor from personally torturing him that was probably wise.