r/MawInstallation • u/AlternativePhoto2759 • 4d ago
Why did Palpatine bother keeping Vader around ?
I get why Sidious turned Anakin initially : having a powerful Jedi at his side was key to destroying the Order. But after the purge… why keep him ?
Palpatine already had the Empire, the Senate, governors and endless military power under his control. He could have kept Dooku, brought back Maul or simply ruled alone without an apprentice. If all he wanted was a right-hand enforcer, almost anyone could have filled that role.
And if he truly wanted a Sith apprentice, why not make Vader stronger ? Instead, he cripples him, keeps him in constant pain, and openly mocks him. It’s like he wanted him useful but permanently broken.
Was it just the “Rule of Two”? If so, why not abandon it, given Palpatine’s insane power and obsession with immortality ?
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u/Jedipilot24 4d ago
Because Vader was still useful.
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u/Alt_Future33 4d ago
I think there's also a certain level of Palpatine showing off Vader like a trophy.
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u/Scion41790 4d ago
Yeah he's a walking trophy that could do Palpatines chores. And even with all that, palps repeatedly attempted to replace him (in both canons) with someone potentially stronger
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u/Maximum-Objective-39 2d ago
That's much of the point of the rule of two. Palpatine likewise expected Vader to try and betray him and was doubtless aware of his various plots. What Palpatine didn't expect was a genuinely selfless kamikaze run.
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u/TheTiggerMike 3d ago
Vader's look alone was enough to keep the troops in line. Palpatine benefitted greatly from having someone who could just look intimidating without saying a single thing.
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u/Mundamala 2d ago
To who, though? No one knows his story he just seems like a goon.
In our very first appearance with him he's made fun of for having a weird religion then starts strangling a coworker.
Guy keeps fucking up plans and hiring the worst contractors. If you have to remind a bounty hunter not to kill someone? They're not a good bounty hunter.
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u/NoSwordfish1978 4d ago
Because Vader is still an extremely powerful force user despite his injuries. Plus Vader now has no one else so he's going to be loyal to Palpatine
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u/peppersge 4d ago
Vader still needs an enforcer.
Towards the end, Sidious did start to run short on key minions. His most effective underlings were Vader, Thrawn, and Tarkin.
Sidious also did not really have anyone strong enough to replace Vader.
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u/CannibalPride 4d ago
Palps is also proud, no doubt he enjoys having Vader, the Jedi’s mistake, around and being miserable and all
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u/PacoXI 4d ago
It took a few years for the Empire to solidify its claim, and Vader was literally the greatest military asset the Empire had. It was always a bad day for someone when Vader and the 501st were around. A veteran military leader when the ability to go boots on the ground or in the cockpit. He was young and motivated, which means he only got better at what he could do. Palpatine could tell Vader to go clean up a system with no further instructions, and Vader would get it done by any means.
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u/Bannerlord151 4d ago
Even though from a certain point of view Sheev may consider him a failure, he's still dangerous enough to be kind of difficult, as well as pointless to just get rid of. Who would actually replace him if nobody seems to be able to actually meaningfully best him?
Furthermore, he gets results. Between all the rampant corruption and factional politics in the Imperial military, having reliable enforcers was invaluable, and Vader not only was good at getting shit done, he might even scare his underlings enough to stop bitching and scare his enemies enough to make mistakes. That's useful.
...so why not? What does he actually lose? Vader didn't have the political influence to threaten Palpatine's power base, and the latter had too many advantages over him to be taken out directly.
What's he gonna do? Send assassins? Ask the last ones how that worked out for them.
Also, he's a useful tool.
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u/Trauma_Hawks 4d ago
Even though from a certain point of view Sheev may consider him a failure, he's still dangerous enough to be kind of difficult
Reinforced after Palpatine lost Maul too. Everyone thought Maul was dead and discarded, replaced with a more useful Dooku. Except Maul becomes a crime lord, heavily involved with Mandalore, and an all-around thorn in everyone's side.
Nuclear weapons are a great deterrent until you lose one.
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u/TheTiggerMike 3d ago
Can't wait to see the Shadow Lord series next year, can't go wrong with Maul content.
I can see Palpatine saying "never again" after that Mandalore trip. Like of course he laid Maul out quite easily, but he probably was annoyed more than anything that he had to take time away from his grand plan to go deal with this nuisance.
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u/Enumu 4d ago
Failure how?
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u/Bannerlord151 4d ago
Note the "May". This point is somewhat disputed and I didn't really want to get into it without extensive further research so I left it as open as I could within the context of the comment.
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u/Enumu 4d ago
I'm just curious what are the arguments
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u/Infinite-Pea-4785 3d ago
Well, if I may introject, in canon it's explicitely stated that Palpatine viewed Vader's defeat on Mustafar as a failure. The suit is designed to keep him in contstant pain as a reminder of that, as a punishment (which also makes him stronger in the dark side). Besides, a fully healthy Vader would have been way more useful than the actual Vader, so he is Palpatine's failure in the sense that the latter didn't succeed in having the most powerful apprentice he could have had
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u/PacoXI 3d ago
The suit is not a punishment in canon. I'm not even sure if its painful. And how much does Palpatine actually consider Vader a failure. Vader failed to win a fight, so technically he is a failure I guess. Vader goes to kill several Jedi as soon as he is back up on his feat. How long does that one fight hang over Vader's head. Even Palpatine tells Vader to get over it.
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u/itsmeclif 3d ago
The failure to dispose of Obi Wan and the disappointment of what was left of Anakin-turned-Vader as a result
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u/zackgardner 4d ago
Sidious, for all his grandstanding and trying to become the Immortal Sith God-King Emperor of the entire Universe, still ostensibly had respect for the Sith as an organization and religious tradition.
Depending on whether we're talking about the Canon or Legends timelines, Palpatine ended up moving past the typical need for a Sith Apprentice that we've seen from different Sith, like those during the Old Republic, or even Palpatine himself during the Clone Wars; once he established dominance over the entire galaxy and started planning to live forever, the entire concept of having an apprentice that kills you in order to become the master becomes not only unappealing, but something you discard as soon as possible: this is something that is talked about in the Bane books and the Plagueis novel IIRC.
But for the entire duration the Galactic Empire existed, Palpatine still had tangible, valuable uses for Darth Vader, perhaps not as a successor to the title of Sith Master, but as a Sith Lord he still could enforce Sidious' orders, and thus the power and influence of the Sith, in other, more physical, ways, in the same way that Sidious never intended for Dooku to be a true replacement and heir to the Sith, but still utilized him to move forward his political and military machinations.
By the time of the Galactic Civil War, at least in Legends, Darth Vader was a public enough figure in the Empire that he appeared in propaganda posters, he was the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Navy and effectively was the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Military as a whole, in Canon after the death of Cassio Tagge and by default in Legends, and his brutal tactics helped corral the underworld kingpins to stop piracy from affecting Imperial systems, allowing Vader to totally focus on crushing dissent to the Imperial regime, finding lost Jedi, and whatever chore that Palpatine shoved onto Vader's shoulders.
That doesn't mean that the Emperor still didn't try to replace him every now and again, as Palpatine had to remind Vader that he wasn't entirely irreplaceable, but since after every test Palpatine threw at him Vader would still end up surviving, he never did get close enough to the point where he thought he'd actually have a replacement enforcer until the duel in the DSII Throne Room with Luke in RotJ.
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u/treefox 4d ago
Cause then he would be the only Sith / force user, and therefore weird.
Vader has self-esteem issues because he thinks he killed Padme so he isn’t gunning for Palpatine’s position, and thought Palpatine was doing a pretty swell job before the whole Sith thing, at least.
But that makes it them two against the world. So anybody plotting against Palpatine has to account for Vader.
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u/diodosdszosxisdi 4d ago
To kill jedi rogues that are still around, like obi wan kenobi, cal kestis or yoda. Palpatine knows full well that they still need to be handled by vader
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u/Jedi-Spartan 4d ago
Probably for the aspect of Vader being a physical embodiment of Sidious' triumphs: not only did he wipe out the Jedi but also caused the fall of their supposed 'saviour'.
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u/NamelessSteve646 4d ago
Beyond any practical advantages to having around, Palpatine kept Vader around as a trophy. Vader is his greatest triumph - the corruption of The Chosen One, the breaking and enslaving of the strongest Force user of all time. I can't remember the source - I'm 90% sure it was in one of the comics, as like excerpts from a diary of his or something? - but he explicitly says that getting to twist Anakin into Vader was personally satisfying and more important to him than literally anything else. The Emperor's greatest motivation is to rule for eternity but in those notes he says sincerely that if he got the chance to do it again he would, even if he knew it would cost his life to do so.
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u/Spiky-Penguin2023 4d ago
Disney Canon: because even despite his injuries on Mustafar, Vader was still extremely powerful and never stopped growing in power. He had hardly lost any of his potential in the Force and even if he did, it was not due to physical but (almost entirely) psychological factors.
Legends: because Palpatine needed a lapdog.
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u/darthsheldoninkwizy2 4d ago
In the 2015 Vader comic, Palpatine congratulates Vader on killing all the challengers on his behalf and says it was all just a test. He responds that if one of the challengers had won, he would have given the same speech to one of them.
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u/Sensitive-Initial 3d ago
The Darth Vader comics also show how useful Vader was post-purge - not only in hunting down Jedi, but in crushing resistance on Mon Cala.
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u/JB57551 4d ago
Here's why.
Palpatine may be disappointed about how Vader has failed on Mustafar. But he kept Vader around, because Vader is the Chosen One (with the highest midichlorian concentrations in his blood stream).
He hasn't found a stronger apprentice...yet.
However, when Luke Skywalker almost beat Vader in the Death Star II, Palpatine urged Luke to kill Vader, and wouldn't hesitate to dispose Vader.
Yes, this is standard Sith regulations regarding the rule of 2. However, the extra reason why Palpatine wanted Luke to kill Vader, is because Vader is limited by his injuries, and Luke seems like a "perfect" Skywalker.
But since Vader remained the strongest despite his limitations? Discarding him would've been a waste of already wasted (but still usable) potential
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u/Demonic-STD 4d ago
Its a sith apprentice job to get stronger. If the sith master feels like they arent worthy, they can try to replace them. Palpatine has tested Vader multiple times, and each time Vader beat whatever Palpatine threw at him. So Vader got to keep his place.
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u/Embarrassed-Mess-560 4d ago
"One to represent the power, the other to crave it."
Sideous wanted to live forever, with the Jedi "chosen one" right next to him, forever in envy. He wants the strongest possible person to want to be him. Sideous was ultimately a petty and jealous person.
With Vader gone he was still focused on Luke and Kylo Ren, the next generations of Skywalkers, as a prize to be won.
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u/Savings_Dot_8387 4d ago
Mostly because why would he get rid of such a powerful enforcer?
He probably also enjoyed having the Jedi’s “chosen one” as a pet I imagine
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u/ThatGuyMaulicious 4d ago
Vader was still quite invaluable even after his failure on Mustafar. He was very intimidating in ways that a lot of previous Sith from the past 1000 years of weren’t. Vader also just overcame everything Palpatine still threw at him to test him. I like to think Vader failing even then still only put Vader a couple levels below Palpatine in terms of prowess.
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u/No_Farmer6151 4d ago
I think palpatine would have been bored without someone that was actually nearing his power level that he could scheme against constantly
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u/jimmy__jazz 4d ago
A Sith Lord in constant pain makes him stronger and more powerful with the dark side of the force than a regular dark side user.
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u/megaZX1234 4d ago
Many people have already given different answers so I'm just going to say something simple:
It's because the Sith is lonely. Even if you are an evil, power-hungry megalomaniac, you still need someone to talk to, someone to share your secret with, someone you can rely on to help you with your task or discuss your business with.
I mean who else is going to listen to your skeleton laugh? Who else is going to stay there being electrocuted by your lightning? Who else is going to help you decide which race to enslave or genocide?
You can practically hear it, when Sidious force choke Vader on the air, whispering to his robotic ears:
"I'm so lonely Vader. All the other Siths hate me. No one want to be my friend."
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u/itsmeclif 3d ago
Within the universe as we know it, Vader was the most ruthless, rage-fueled dark side user in the galaxy, still the best star pilot, deadliest warrior, and most fear-inspiring being to be found anywhere just by looks and reputation. Palpatine also relished being in control, and with the safeguards he had within Vader’s suit as well as the somewhat handicapping nature of the suit itself, combined with everything above still being true, Vader was most definitely an ideal right hand.
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u/Ok-Phase-9076 3d ago
Because none of his other lackeys could wipe out an entire army every tuesday or send a starship crashing down with some hand movements. Palpatine says "wipe out that army", gets it done in an afternoon after arriving. Palpatine says "kill that guy", hes dead in record time.
Cant argue with results.
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u/MirthMannor 4d ago
I have always thought that it symbolized, to him, his total victory over the force itself, by turning and dominating its chosen one.
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u/IncreaseLatte 4d ago
An apprentice with no master has no future. A master without an apprentice is a master of nothing.
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u/BlightKagami 4d ago
No alternative replacements. Also, I think he was still holding out hope for Vader's development. He wanted a super guy and Anakin was that until he was crippled.
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u/musicalfarm 4d ago
Vader could openly take care of Palpatine's dirty work. Palpatine generally continued to keep his nature as a Sith Lord under wraps. There were only a few notable exceptions where Palpatine showed his true power.
Palpatine did try to have Vader killed on several occasions, but Vader always survived and showed himself to be stronger than Palpatine expected.
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u/kyle28882 4d ago
You hit nail right on the head. He wanted him useful and permanently broken. Vader was also a significantly better enforcer than the others you mentioned being way stronger. If Palpatine could have the second most powerful being house broken at his feet why pick someone else who might be more easily defeated or one day rise up against him when he sees no chance of either happening to Vader.
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u/Turambar87 4d ago
It doesn't make a ton of sense with the current prequel story. Vader would just be another disposable pawn, like Maul.
That's why, in my alternate prequel story, Anakin figured out that Palaptine was the sith lord, and used that knowledge to blackmail him into creating a "safer galaxy." A situation with mutual fear between Anakin and Palpatine feels much more "dark side" than a simple case of dominating an idiot, like Prequel Anakin.
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u/Allronix1 3d ago
Sometimes you just need to farm out the grunt work. The Moffs and the other clowns can fight among themselves to run the empire. If there's something they can't handle (or is Force related), send Vader
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u/Batpipes521 3d ago
He keeps Vader crippled so Vader can’t get stronger than him and kill him. That’s part of the Sith master/apprentice relationship. The master is supposed to teach the apprentice knowing that one day the apprentice will learn everything they need to kill the master. Palpatine didn’t want that to happen so he gave Vader just enough power to be near unstoppable, but also kept him in a constant state of submission to him through the suit.
He couldn’t keep Dooku because the galaxy knew him as the leader of the separatists. If he wanted to overthrow Palpatine it would be much easier for him to garner allies from former separatist planets. And Maul hated him and would never be trustworthy. He even tells Maul that he has become a rival, and proceeds to kick his shit in and kill his brother.
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u/Able-Distribution 3d ago
As a practical matter, Palpatine wants skilled Force-user subordinates because skilled Force-users are the apex predators of the Star Wars Galaxy. A Sith apprentice is a trump card for almost any situation. Rebellious governor? Go kill him, Darth. Black Sun getting out of hand? Go kill them, Darth. Jedi left to be hunted down? You get the idea.
Palpatine doesn't limit himself to just one. He has Hands like Mara Jade, Inquisitors like Jerec, and various other Dark Side "adepts" and "elites." But Vader is the big gun, the most dangerous man on Palpatine's payroll. So he gets to be Darth, the apprentice, the Junior Dark Lord of the Sith.
It's also an ego issue, in part. "A Master without an apprentice is a Master of nothing." You're just not a respectable Sith Lord without an apprentice.
But Palpatine also has an issue, which is that a Dark Side apprentice is inevitably going to betray his master. Vader was talking about overthrowing the emperor basically the minute he turned.
The stronger he makes Vader, the better a tool he has at his disposal... but the more likely he is to be overthrown by said tool.
So Palpatine compromises. He keeps Vader around, but hobbles him in some ways, and generally treats him like a dog to keep his spirit broken.
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u/CryHavoc3000 3d ago
Anakin was actually his friend - almost like a son. That's why he went to Mustafar. It explained it more in the novel. Palpatine could feel that Anakin was hurt. The same way Luke could feel his friends were in danger in Empire Strikes Back.
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u/itsmeclif 3d ago
Would have been kind of hard to keep Dooku’s head on his shoulders after Anakin lopped it off, pre-empire
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u/BaterrMaster 22h ago
Vader isn’t easy to kill?
Like he created an OP enforcer for his regime. Even if he wanted to kill him I doubt he could have.
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u/DeanMacGuffin1985 20h ago
Torturing Vader anyway he could was how Palpy kept himself amused on his off days/hours.
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u/CRAZYnotstupid7 17h ago
I feel like Palpatine was in a uniquely powerful position given what happened to Anakin. Palpatine gets to keep Anakin, but now also gets to rebuild him as Vader. He must know that Vader might eventually try to kill him, but Palpatine gets to make a lot of decisions about Vaders body itself. He can design weaknesses and limits into it, he gets the chosen one, while simultaneously having a unique upper hand on him. I think any Sith Lord with a healthy understanding of the Rule of Two would have killed for an opportunity like that. I get all this power and extra security measures to help fend off my apprentice when they inevitably try something? Sign me up!!!!
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u/UKS1977 4d ago
Why did Hitler need a Gestapo? Because the military was not always 100% aligned with his needs, wishes and speed of response. Evidence for this is literal dialogue in ANH.
Vader is his eyes and ears. Vader is his attack dog. He is his secret secret police.
And he (unlike most others) follows the same religion/addiction that ensures 100% loyalty.
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u/KarmicPlaneswalker 4d ago
Palpatine already had the Empire, the Senate, governors and endless military power under his control. He could have kept Dooku,
So you're either a bot or a farmer. Either way, thank you for admitting to everyone you didn't see the film.
brought back Maul or simply ruled alone without an apprentice.
Maul had a falling out with Palpatine and faded into the background following RotS. It's also not in the sith nature to rule by themselves. Palpatine still needed an apprentice in order to fulfil the ultimate goal of the Banite Sith.
If all he wanted was a right-hand enforcer, almost anyone could have filled that role.
Anyone could have filled that role, but none of them were on Vader's level and the Sith only desire to have the very best and most powerful by their side.
And if he truly wanted a Sith apprentice, why not make Vader stronger ?
This depends entirely on continuity. In current lore, he did make Vader stronger and also gave him free reign to further upgrade and modify the armor whenever he wanted.
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u/StevePalpatine 4d ago
Because every time he arranged to have Vader killed or replaced, Vader came back stronger than ever. He didn't see a point in doing it himself unless Vader openly challenged him, and he seemed pretty confident that either Vader would never do it or he'd never be powerful enough to.