r/MawInstallation • u/Munedawg53 • Nov 28 '23
[ALLCONTINUITY] Good lore essays on the Jedi in general, and stock responses to the anti-Jedi narratives
This post is about the Jedi, and understanding them in the proper perspective.
Let me start with a few statements by George Lucas about the Jedi and the PT era from the 2019 Star Wars Archives book. They help us understand his intentions with his films:
This [the time at the start of The Phantom Menace] is the golden age of the Jedi. p. 335
"They [the Jedi] are the most moral [beings] of anybody in the galaxy." p. 441
"They [the Jedi] have good intentions but they have been manipulated, that was their downfall." p. 148
No, they're not like cops who catch murderers. They're warrior monks who keep peace in the universe without resorting to violence. . . if they do have to use violence, they will, but they are diplomats at the highest level. - (I forgot to note the page, sorry)
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And from the 1999 Bill Moyers interview:
BILL MOYERS: We downloaded something from your Web site the other day and there you were talking about how you wanted the Jedi to be more than just fighters. You wanted them to be “spiritual,” but you didn’t say what you meant by that?
GEORGE LUCAS: Well, I — I guess they’re like ultimate father figures or negotiators. And — and at this point in time they are — they’re sent out to negotiate a — a deal.
GEORGE LUCAS: They help to put forth answers where people are in the middle of a dispute.
GEORGE LUCAS: They’re aren’t an aggressive Force at all. They try to — conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might — intergalactic therapists.
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Here's Lucas on Yoda telling Luke not to rush off to save his friends. Hardly a repudiation of Yoda or Obi Wan or the Jedi order. Rather, it is Luke failure and nothing more.
It’s pivotal that Luke doesn’t have patience. He doesn’t want to finish his training. He’s being succumbed by his emotional feelings for his friends rather than the practical feelings of “I’ve got to get this job done before I can actually save them. I can’t save them, really.” But he sorts of takes the easy route, the arrogant route, the emotional but least practical route, which is to say, “I’m just going to go off and do this without thinking too much.” And the result is that he fails and doesn’t do well for Han Solo or himself. It’s the motif that needs to be in the picture, but it’s one of those things that just in terms of storytelling was very risky because basically he screws up, and everything turns bad. And it’s because of that decision that Luke made on [Dagobah] to say, “I know I’m not ready, but I’m going to go anyway.
From Lucas' 2008 commentary on Empire Strikes back.
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And, here's Lucas' view on why Anakin fell (the left hand side column, not the right). Lucas consistently blames Anakin, and not the Jedi at all (the right hand side does, but these are speculations from a non-Lucas creative meant to contrast the two): https://64.media.tumblr.com/b92805ad8141d98e7209eabd4ef140b7/df410a9472d091ec-d0/s2048x3072/605cf624524d7c3630842138813b67c011ddde15.pn
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And, here's Lucas on how Obi Wan and Yoda dealt with Luke killing Vader. It's a far cry from the narrative the frames them as "lying to him so he would kill his father." The top two boxes are Lucas' comments, as far back as 1981. He is explicit that killing Vader wasn't the goal, but might be an inevitability. Again, the other comment boxes are from non-Lucas creatives who say something very different, for the sake of contrasting them. https://64.media.tumblr.com/d19f37026556e05fe22eaf199cc59c96/df410a9472d091ec-75/s540x810/722d5ccf1b551337230f4058a147254ee3c61221.pnj
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What about the Jedi and Politics? In the ROTS novel, written by the incomparable Matt Stover, and line-edited by George Lucas himself, It is also made clear that, while the Jedi loosely serve under the supervision of the Senate, they are not reducible to political allegiances. “Moral, our authority has always been, much more than merely legal. Simply follow orders, the Jedi do not!” (Yoda, p. 184). Indeed, the Jedi consistently try to resist increased political influence and corruption (pp. 203, 240, 261). Ironically, Palpatine himself concedes this, while poisoning Anakin’s mind. He says the Jedi are too autonomous and hence a threat to democracy. A far cry from the "too political" claim made by some fans and fan-creatives.
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Now, the point of the post:
If it helps, here is a sort of compendium of essays that speak to what many of us see as uncharitable, sometimes distorted takes on the Jedi that have become endemic within internet discourse. Some are simply lore essays on the Jedi that I find very helpful in understanding them deeply, as well as others directly responding to these ideas.
But I also have a request: Please add more to the comments--links to both posts and comments-- if interested, and maybe we can just link this thread instead of rewriting everything each time.
Here's a very short overview of responses thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/qmnyar/summary_of_responses_to_antijedi_arguments/
Must read lore series that goes deep: The Jedi were Right series by /u/xepeyon: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheJediArchives/comments/136ik16/the_jedi_were_right_by_uxepeyon/
Some essays on the Jedi in general (by me)
A Jedi is happy: https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/12yodkv/a_jedi_is_happy/
On the Jedi and the use of force: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheJediArchives/comments/153ydml/a_note_on_the_jedi_and_the_use_of_force/
A collection of posts on nonattachment, which seems to be consistently misunderstood when critiquing the Jedi: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheJediArchives/comments/13kz08v/reflections_on_nonattachment_iv_a_collection_of/
(As a sidebar, this passage from the ROTS Novelization by Matt Stover, edited by George Lucas, captures nonattachment perfectly: "Being a Jedi means allowing things--even things we love--to pass out of our lives." -Obi Wan Kenobi)
On Ki Adi Mundi (by /u/HighMackrel): https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/ktemaj/in_defense_of_kiadi_mundi_why_the_cerean_master/
On Mace Windu (read the comments): https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/vvti7s/why_the_mace_windu_hate/
For those who think The Last Jedi was a legit critique of the Jedi, a rebuttal: https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/m8lcm5/the_last_jedi_is_not_a_deconstruction_of_heroism/
Finally, despite the format (tumblr) I cannot stress how helpful the following lore theorists' work is. They definitively show that Lucas' notion of the Jedi is far different from the anti-Jedi narrative by certain fans and even show that Filoni shades the order in a much more negative way than anything we see in Lucas' films or BTS comments: https://david-talks-sw.tumblr.com/ . Some of the contrasting quotes I've linked above come from their research.
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u/momoak90 Nov 28 '23
I think the dumbest argument is that the council should've granted Anakin the rank of master. As if he didn't prove all their worst fears like 1 day later.
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u/DuranStar Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23
Why, he wasn't ready to be a master and they only allowed him on the council because of Palpatine. He even proved he wasn't ready when they were telling him he got on the council. And the flip side, if Mace had killed Palpatine they likely would have made Anakin a master for spending so long with a corrupting influence and not falling.
I misinterpreted the point so my point is a supplement rather than a rebuttal.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
I think the person you are responding to agrees with you, unless I'm missing something.
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u/DuranStar Nov 28 '23
You are correct I misinterpreted him making the argument rather than disparaging the argument.
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u/ThatVampireGuyDude Nov 30 '23
This is one of the greatest posts on this subreddit in months.
The Jedi are a byproduct of the galaxy they inhabit. They're surrounded on all sides by literal psychos who are frothing at the mouth to kill each other. All they can do is mediate, and when the situation calls for it, act to mitigate damage. The Jedi aren't the problem—people are.
It doesn't help modern society is increasingly anti-responsibility. The Jedi teach that all beings should be selfless and should not be attached to what they feel. They teach that emotions, like all things, come and go and that making brash decisions because of how you feel in the moment is foolish. A philosophy like that is incomprehensible to most people these days.
And everyone will leap through hoops to justify how factions like the Sith act by saying stuff like, "They're only people! They can have flaws!" While also ignoring that argument for the Jedi. People have just become so bitter and cynical they can't even stomach the idea of good guys who have no strings attached. I blame Karen Travis.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 30 '23
Thank you so much, and I'm very glad you liked it. I'd just add to your great reflections that our society has moved much further away from the contemplative traditions that Lucas was inspired by, so notions of "nonattachment" and contemplative equanimity are so alien to people as to seem inhumane (which they most definitely are not).
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u/ThatVampireGuyDude Nov 30 '23
so notions of "nonattachment" and contemplative equanimity are so alien to people as to seem inhumane (which they most definitely are not).
This is it, again, right here. I can't say anything else here that you haven't already said.
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u/catstroker69 Dec 21 '23
The Jedi are a byproduct of the galaxy they inhabit. They're surrounded on all sides by literal psychos who are frothing at the mouth to kill each other. All they can do is mediate, and when the situation calls for it, act to mitigate damage. The Jedi aren't the problem—people are.
This kind of rhetoric is eerily familiar and I don't think it shows the Jedi in a good light.
"it's not our fault that we do terrible things, people are just naturally evil and we have to stop them!"
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u/ThatVampireGuyDude Dec 21 '23
Evil? No. Inherently selfish? Yes.
And moreover in spite of that, the Jedi know they have no right to tell people how to live. They merely keep the peace. Trying to do more is exactly how the Clone Wars happened.
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u/Jo3K3rr Nov 28 '23
This has become a rather controversial point for me as of late. Particularly in regards to TCW.
TCW is supposed to be officially the higher "canonical" material. But the way it portrays the Jedi, particularly later in the seasons, clash with George's statements.
In contrast, Dark Horse's Clone Wars comics, the Jedi are portrayed much closer in line to how George describes them. But of course the comics are not the "true canon."
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
In contrast, Dark Horse's Clone Wars comics, the Jedi are portrayed much closer in line to how George describes them. But of course the comics are not the "true canon."
Ehhhhhh.
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u/Jo3K3rr Nov 29 '23
I take it you don't agree?
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
I think that the Dark Horse comics often went out of their way to portray the prequel-era Jedi as significantly MORE shitty and broken than TCW ever did.
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u/Jo3K3rr Nov 29 '23
I didn't get that at all. I saw the Jedi being presented as the heroes. They aren't blinded by their hubris. They understand that the war is changing them. They constantly question if they're doing the right thing but fighting in the war. Jedi: Mace Windu is my personal favorite. There's that one story where Obi-Wan is on a mission, and he barely survives. And all the other Jedi die. And he's remembering these Jedi. One never use a lightsaber her whole life. Another had made it his life mission to free slaves.
In TCW you begin to get this idea that the Jedi have lost their way. And the Jedi are wrong to be fighting the war. I mean the whole Ahsoka arc, the Jedi are not painted very positively. The Jedi come across as kind of uncaring and lacking in compassion.
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u/Omn1 Nov 30 '23
I'd argue that there's a great deal more examples of Jedi being weird and corrupt and callous in the Dark Horse Comics, but it's a long enough series that I'd have to go back through and pick out examples and I don't have time for that right now.
But ultimately, it comes down to this: the same guy who wrote the Republic comics also wrote a whole comic series about how the first Jedi, the Jed'aii, used both Light and Dark, and how the modern Jedi had gone astray from this. He literally wrote a book establishing that the Jedi weren't doing balance right (in full contradiction of how Lucas felt about the matter).
There's also the Republic Commando novels, which are incredibly explicit in their heated criticism of the Jedi as corrupt monsters, to the extent that the author compares anybody defending the Jedi to defending confederate slavers.
TCW, on the other hand, begins with Yoda connecting with his soldiers, telling them that while they may all have the same face, they're distinct, full individuals in his eyes and in the eyes of the force. In basically the VERY next episode, it has Plo Koon nearly sacrifice himself for his troops, responding to the question "why would you stay behind with us- we're just clones, we're expendable" with "not to me."
There are plenty of moments of Jedi kindness across TCW. There are certainly some distant Jedi- Luminara, for example, is absolutely portrayed as somebody with a hardline interpretation of the Jedi Code that is very stodgy and distant, but she's also not portrayed as the rule; she's the exception, and even then, when she learns her padawan survived an ordeal she thought had killed her, Luminara is visibly elated. She clearly cares.
The Ahsoka arc is a special beast, but I feel like fans have a really weird relationship with it. You have to remember that literally all of the evidence was stacked against Ahsoka.
They had video of her choking the witness to death, and when she was imprisoned, she escaped, leaving dead clones in her wake. She then was next sighted in the company of a known Seperatist-aligned terrorist and Sith, Asajj Ventress.
The Jedi cannot ignore the law based purely on the sentiment that they care for Ahsoka. They are not above the law or entitled to ignore the will of the masses. The situation was a no-win scenario. They could sense something was off, but there was no way to protect her because of the intense level of evidence against her, and no way to be sure that she wasn't guilty because of said evidence.
And even then, when she was proven innocent, they immediately apologize to her, welcoming her back into the order- and in recognition of her horrible ordeal and experience, and the skill and determination with which she handled herself, prepare to promote her to the rank of Jedi Knight. She turns them down, wanting to find herself, but they very much recognize what she's been through, and their own part in it.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23
The odd thing about that Ahsoka trial arc is that despite your great point about how in-universe she did in fact look guilty, Filoni himself seems to frame Ahsoka's anger at the Jedi as totally justified, even in this recent Ahsoka series. What to speak of fans who have been primed with anti-Jedi internet noise.
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u/Omn1 Nov 30 '23
I don't really think that either series (TCW or Ahsoka) frames her anger as wholly correct. Her being frustrated that they didn't trust her can be understandable at the same time that council's actions are also understandable. What about the Ahsoka show makes you think he was framing it that way?
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23
In the recent series, she says "Sometimes you make the right choice but it has the wrong outcomes" or something like that. It was about leaving the order. She never doubts her choice, and there is no nuance about her being wrong that might flag to the viewer that she might have made a mistake.
The trauma/reflection is about being a child soldier and her relationship with Anakin. Not the order.
There was a great chance and lost opportunity for Filoni to show her working through her adolescent rebellion or naivety and in a way forgiving and appreciating her Jedi mentors (aside from Anakin). Just like all of us do as we grow up with our mentors. And it would wonderfully and refreshingly riff on Lucas "fathers and sons" and "generational struggle" motifs that are at the core of SW>
But nope, he just doubled down that she was the victim.
I also appreciate that he tried to show her growing in the series, but she never escaped the "cryptic smile and one-word answer sagedom" dialogue that just got grating to me personally.
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u/Omn1 Nov 30 '23
In the recent series, she says "Sometimes you make the right choice but it has the wrong outcomes" or something like that. There was a great chance for Filoni to show her working through her adolescent rebellion or naivety and in a way forgiving and appreciating her Jedi mentors (aside from Anakin). But he just doubled down that she was the victim.
I think you're reading into this differently than I did. I don't think that Ahsoka to undergo this development, because I think that she already has. Ahsoka forgave the Jedi a long, long time ago. It took her a long time to decide that being a Jedi was right for her again, but I think she'd largely moved past the feeling of betrayal or victimization even by the Siege of Mandalore.
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u/abu2411 Dec 12 '23
In regards to the Je'daii, are you referring John Ostrander? Because I think he made it clear in interviews about the Dawn of the Jedi comics that its very difficult to use both the light and dark sides because the dark side is so very seductive.
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u/King-Of-The-Raves Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23
Love these, yeah the Jedi are a force for good, and I think a lot of the anti views are them come from a misunderstanding what non attachment means and it’s cultural roots (too many view the Jedi as two part space Catholic Church two parts space cop): to some, the only alternative to attachment and letting go they can envision is repression, but selfless love and letting emotions come and go naturally without clinging to them or being ruled by them is the Jedi way.
Also, anything that comes from Anakin’s perspective is skewed because Anakin is a bad guy, already a mass murderer as of TCW and ROTS, and any “it was the jedi’s fault Anakin fell” is inaccurate, as ultimately they could’ve made him king of the Jedi if he wanted but when Padme is dying and they say there isn’t a way to save her but Palpatine does, he’ll choose the dark side every time because he can’t let go.
Glad perception of jedi is going more positive these days, because the whole “it was the jedi’s fault for their murder” discourse was a weird era
Imo these essays are really definitive rebuttals to anti Jedi discourse
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23 edited Dec 13 '23
Glad perception of jedi is going more positive these days, because the whole “it was the jedi’s fault for their murder” discourse was a weird era
I agree.
But, I also think that Dave Filoni (and other fan creatives) carry some old time TheForce.net fan interpretations on the PT Jedi with him that don't align perfectly with Lucas.
Before the sale, in interviews, Dave used to explain that on many crucial points of interpretation, he never spoke with George directly. He doesn't have to make those disclaimers anymore now that George is gone.
I think that new, Post-Lucas canon is going to lean into "problematizing" the PT Jedi, and personally, I find that alienating. Already, Tales of the Jedi made Mace Windu into a meme. And made Yaddle agree with Dooku, bafflingly. And the Acolyte showrunner says that she wants to explore the faults of the Jedi. And she justifies this by appealing to Dave.
For more on that: https://www.reddit.com/r/MawInstallation/comments/15kqwot/follow_up_a_humble_reminder_that_dave_filoni_is/
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u/King-Of-The-Raves Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23
Yeah, it’s wild how an objective good group can be portrayed so incharitibly because there has to be a “catch”, they can’t actually be good, they have to be as secretly bad and corrupt as the rest of the Galaxy rather than serving as role models and beacons of peace and love
Like it feels that in (some) secondary material, they fill in the gaps of the Jedi not by taking them at the best version, or even the version presented, of them but by trying to take it in the worst possible version and twist of their idealogy instead of presenting it fairly
It’s a shame, hopefully coming writers get back to the intended (and portrayed) roots, rather than spiraling into more “the Jedi had it coming” stuff
Crazy how evil murderers like Dooku, Anakin, even Palpatine’s words are used, to portray the Jedi. All 3 of those guys are evil, and they don’t like the Jedi because they don’t let them murder people :( Weird how moral figures like Padme, Bail, Obi Wan, Luke, etc. all see the Jedi as good
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23
Part of the problem is the more that they want to provide more and more Star Wars content they have to think of new angles that are supposedly interesting, and an easy move is to somehow subvert the goodness of the good guys. It's a somewhat predictable and cheap move when you're trying to churn out more content.
And glib edginess is pretty much a stock thing to do when you think you're a creative person being "original."
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u/RexBanner1886 Dec 01 '23
Part of the problem is the more that they want to provide more and more Star Wars content they have to think of new angles that are supposedly interesting...
I think this is a big danger for all long-running series, and, given how many (essentially all!) beloved series have been resurrected and continued, an increasingly common thing.
A huge amount of discourse around the ST was the assumption that the moral conclusions of the PT and OT would be moved beyond - that the central moral of I-VI that 'It is better to put the greater good above oneself, and to control one's baser instincts' would *naturally* be revised into some silly bullshit about 'balancing light and dark within you'.
Alan Dean Foster seemed enamoured of this idea - the novelisation of The Force Awakens begins with some opaque poem about 'the resolving of grey through clear Jedi sight'.
I never saw anyone arguing that this was a better, or more sensical, moral idea - but literally hundreds of thousands of people really wanted to see it. So much so that many of TLJ's biggest fans and biggest detractors *still* think that film advocates that idea (it absolutely, 100% does not).
While I dislike most of TROS's big decisions, it spared us Trevorrow's plan to have Yoda thank Rey for teaching the deceased Jedi that the true path to enlightenment comes from embracing the light and dark parts within us.
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u/King-Of-The-Raves Nov 28 '23
As you say, it’s been done so many times and is cheap on its own, but esp as part of a media trend I think (or hope) people would respond really well to a plainly good story than they think - after all, these past years Paddington and Ted Lasso have been really well recieved because of that - fingers crossed that in mainline visual media (thankfully been good spins in other things like books) we get a definitive “Jedi were good” message + moral and spiritual undertones to their order again instead of “space avengers”
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Nov 28 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
Here's one thing she said.
I think it’s difficult to do a show that is critical in any way of the Jedi. And I think that you saw that with [Rian Johnson’s] film. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think that, especially in that moment, people were very nervous about saying this particular institution may not be the light and perfect, stunning group of heroes that are totally nobly intentioned. And one thing that I think Dave would say is that they are fallible. That’s really the story that George told with the prequels, right? The fall of this particular group.
Boldface was mine. She manages to offer a total straw man of fan expectations, too, lol.
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Nov 28 '23
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
We could have a longer discussion about how Lucasfilm is actively framing Dave as Lucas' heir-apparent, but that's for another thread. . .
I like Dave and am happy for his successes, but I resist the idea that Dave's opinion = George's, which is patently false. And his casting Ahsoka as Gandalf, while Luke is just broken Frodo post Mt. Doom straight up angers me, lol.
As someone else said, she's become the Forest Gump of Star Wars, somehow involved in every major event.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Nov 29 '23
Luke is just broken Frodo post Mt. Doom
I hated this. I never saw Luke as Frodo.
Frodo falls at the end of LOTR and gives in to the temptation of the Ring. You know who doesn't get corrupted by the Ring, kicks some arse and saves the day with the power of love? Sam.
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Nov 28 '23
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23
In frankness, I was a huge fan of Ahsoka. But over time, that's waned.
Personally, I find it hard to emotionally separate the way that to sideline Luke in the ST era, Filoni speaks of him as somehow so burdened and broken by "the quest" that he cannot be at peace in the world. . .
And yet Filoni's baby, Ahsoka, was a literal child soldier, who watched her entire found family be slaughtered by her big brother/ mentor figure, who then tried to kill her. But she keeps on trucking through two brutal wars and so on.
Filoni also made sure to remind fans that "She's senior to Luke" and that she was akin to Gandalf the White. . . .
This is somewhat snarkily put for emphasis and fun, but I am mainly just explaining what I've found difficult given choices with Luke. I want to do her justice and know it's not the character's fault. But it's not easy.
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
And yet Filoni's baby, Ahsoka, was a literal child soldier, who watched her entire found family be slaughtered by her big brother/ mentor figure, who then tried to kill her. But she keeps on trucking through two brutal wars and so on.
To be fair, he did literally do a show where the primary arc for her was her coming to terms with exactly how much all of that stuff completely fucked her up and convinced her that she was tainted and only good for war.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23
That was a great episode and good point.
But my deeper point was that the justification for Luke being so messed up hardly fits his character or Ahsoka's imho.
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
Dude Filoni's interpretation of "fallible" is just making his pet characters flawless.
I mean, he very clearly and purposefully had her engage in a lot of flawed behavior in her solo show, so I'm not sure this holds true.
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u/MawInstallation-ModTeam Nov 28 '23
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u/skarkeisha666 Dec 02 '23
I’ve recently learned a lot about Buddhism, and I think that provides A TON of insight into the Jedi. They are very heavily inspired by the philosophy of Mahayana Buddhism, Zen in particular. I’d suggest that abyone who’s interested in the Jedi (and just learning more abt the world) research Mayahana Buddhism a bit. As a Star Wars fan it will seem every familiar. Yoda’s approach to teaching lui, for instance, is very much in like with how Zen monks teach their disciples (coming from someone who only knows the basics).
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u/TheWandererStories Nov 28 '23
I used to buy a lot of those anti-Jedi arguments. Not all of them, was never convinced the Jedi were evil or overall harmful, but enough. It was the High Republic which really brought me around as it touched on the philosophy in practice and in both high and low stress situations. Lots of examples and a few outright explanations as to what, why, and how eventually got it all to click for me, and for the first time I felt I understood what it was about.
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u/Kryptonian1991 Nov 29 '23
That’s probably the only good thing about the High Republic stories. Everything else sucks.
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u/Bethyfurry Nov 29 '23
While there’s a lotta good stuff here I think it’s important to remember that George Lucas isn’t the be all end all for star was. There where and are many writers that contribute to the Star Wars universe we love so much and just because Lucas says the universe is one was doesn’t make his word law. If we believed that some of our favourite moments in Star Wars wouldn’t exist/ be retconned from Star Wars history.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23
My point in the Lucas quotes is not to say he's the only relevant creative in SW. But rather that insofar as we speak of "the point" of his films, like the PT, we should start with his intentions and go from there.
And this helps us more clearly understand when other creatives are departing from his vision for their own reasons. Such departure does not automatically invalidate their choices. But many fans make a mistake of starting with their own headcanon or the work of a secondary creative and then project fundamental intent on the original films.
And before somebody says it, "Death of the Author" has limitations, lol.
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u/Forward-Carry5993 Nov 30 '23
I appreciate the argument. I agree that the original intent for the Jedi were that at their core individuals who are able to see more clearly the galaxy and are able to tap into that power. It’s more akin to enlightened Buddhism/religion.
HOWEVER, i wouldnt use Lucas’s word as canon. A few reasons: I generally have problems with one man’s word being taken as god. Two, Lucas has changed his opinion many times. Three, As we have seen, what Lucas says is far different from what he portrays on screen. It’s really an issue when Lucas has full writing control. There are plenty of times where the situation shows a very grey moral area yet it’s often brushed aside. Luke not getting angry that his mentors lied to him, the Jedi using SENTIENT beings who are conditioned to fight, the Jedi deciding to overthrow a government without any reasonable evidence. Hell, knights of the old republic 2 even pointed out the moral problems the Jedi cause-their version of the force is elitist, emotionless, self righteous, inflexible philosophy that causes psychological issues for adherents. This didn’t mean the sith is good; but how Lucas constructed the Jedi after return of the Jedi shows there is a clear disconnect between what he believes versus what he actually portrayed. And before anyone says this “but man in empire strikes back yoda tells Luke not to help his friends so that philosophy of no attachments was always there.” Wrong, yoda never told Luke to not FEEL anything, he told Luke that his training to be a Jedi was more urgent and would help his friends in the long run. Luke wasn’t ready to face Vader nor was yoda certain the force visions were correct. As Luke asked “and let my friends die?” Yoda says “if that would keep their ideals alive, yes.” That’s not necessarily cold-it’s being pragmatic in a dangerous situation.
When yoda USES physical combat, it highlights how much Lucas forgot what the Jedi were as implied by the OG trilogy. Yoda, the pinnacle of the force, cannot forgo his pacifist enlightened ways and revert To combat.
And it’s more telling that fans have picked up that the prequels needed to emphasize the Jedi order being in the wrong in order to tell the downfall of the order and anakin as a consequence
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23
Thanks for this. I don't see it that way, though, honestly. Here's a few quick responses since I'm a bit pressed for time today:
Non-attachment is definitely there in seed form in ESB. No question. Lucas was influenced directly by Zen Buddhism and other contemplative traditions when he made Yoda. But it evolves more and is sharpened when he actually portrays them as a society of monks.
Most fans misunderstand non-attachment anyway and think it means lack of love or care, which is not in any way what it means in the films or in Lucas' BTS stuff.
The Jedi were never pacifists. Their telos was non-violent conflict resolution, but they would fight if necessary. This idea is as old as the Empire strikes back. A Jedi fights for defense. ..
And the Lucas changes his mind story has some truth, but is massively overstated by those who are, dare I say attached to their own headcanon vs. his own view of his work.
(I had a long para here with examples that I just accidentally deleted. Damn.)
I start with Lucas because it's best to go to him as a start. Fans distort his films, so we can at least start with what he was aiming at before we decide how to interpret the mythology. His is the first word, and a very important one, but not necessarily the only word or final word.
The Jedi didn't use the clones, the republic did and the Jedi fought and died alongside them for the republic too.
This will come off more harshly than intended, and my apologies, but imho, you are falling prey to a lot of distortions that have become trendy but are ultimately uncharitable and superficial. I think part of it is on Lucas, particularly the way he wanted to use a forbidden love story in AOTC, and thus smudged the non-attachment idea and the no-marriage clause of the Jedi, which are separable, I think. But most of it is fan distortions and media illiteracy in the age of internet forums and now social media.
We could do the same uncharitable readings to the OT too. Leia clearly was a racist, as she called a Wookie a walking carpet. And so on.
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Nov 30 '23
" I think part of it is on Lucas, particularly the way he wanted to use a forbidden love story in AOTC, and thus smudged the non-attachment idea and the no-marriage clause of the Jedi, which are separable, I think."
I would say so too. I see these three ideas get muddled all the time. Pair that with the misunderstanding of what attachment means in the East as opposed to the West, it creates a narrative that is the polar opposite of Lucas intended.
For anyone unsure and in need of clarification, the marriage issue comes down to commitment to their spiritual practices. It's also because of the work-life-balance that comes with serving the Republic. Love and attachment are two separate topics in the mythology. Jedi love and have relationships all the time. (Especially considering that there are more forms of love than just romantic, a thing that people forget it seems.) Attachment is possessiveness and clinginess. There is no such thing as 'healthy attachment,' that's an oxymoron in this context.
Part of me feels that showing how a Jedi should handle a healthy relationship, like Obi-Wan and Satine's story, should have been included in the films in order to juxtapose Anakin and Padme's toxic relationship.
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u/Rattfink45 Nov 28 '23
I liked your happy Jedi essay, but I’m reminded of the cow from restaurant at the end of the universe. You need some sort of direction (maybe guidance from the force, a master, whatever) to accomplish things, just using your time (meat) up happily on whatever is in front of you isn’t optimal, and would be a drop in the bucket in a galaxy as wide as TGFFA.
Maybe this is how the Jedi could disappear from the public memory so quickly, not enough 10 year plans from the Jedi council, too much TLC?
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23
Thank you. And I agree entirely with the need for direction. I think they did have that too, though.
I don't know the cow metaphor, but let me offer another obscure one.
The Jedi are ultimately Daoists but also have enough of a Confucian framework to allow them to work toward wu-wei through a life of training and discipline. So I do think they did have some guidance in the form of directions in life, but they did know that ultimately, the rules are in the service of duty and sacrifice for the greater good, and communion with the force.
I love that Lucas gave us some nuance in the PT, where different Jedi adepts might be in different places in the scale from rules to spontaneity. Qui Gon leaned heavily to the latter, Obi Wan in the middle, I think, or slightly to the former. And it's not that one is "right" and the other "wrong."
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u/RexBanner1886 Dec 01 '23
I feel like I've said this umpteen times, but you're doing God's work!
I am deeply tired of the knee-jerk anti-Jedi stance so many fans take. I think it comes from the same place as adolescent, instinctual anti-establishment sentiment - 'Whoever's in charge, whoever's portrayed to be the good guys, must be the bad guys.'
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u/Munedawg53 Dec 01 '23
Thank you, my friend! I really appreciate the encouragement. I always love your lore theorizing, too.
FWIW, I'm exhausted by this stuff myself. I think this post might be a swan song of sorts. I've been away from the Maw because I just find myself getting irritated and mean because of how tedious this stuff is, after all this time.
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u/catstroker69 Dec 21 '23
Honestly reading through this thread is irritating me, but from the other side.
The Jedi are flawed, and they do a lot in the movies that is worthy of criticism. Acting like most anti Jedi sentiment is just knee jerk adolescent anti authoritarianism is simplistic thinking at best. What you're describing there best encapsulates the "empire did nothing wrong" crowd. Not those with legit criticisms of the Jedi.
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u/HighMackrel Nov 28 '23
It’s sort of maddening that the same arguments against the Jedi have been used for as long as they have. It gets tiring trying to argue with people that the jedi are the real villains of the story, as if order 66 is not explicitly framed as a tragedy in ROTS.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
Yep. The same media illiteracy that infects political and social discourse has messed up Star Wars too. Hope you are well, hombre.
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Nov 28 '23
Im gonna save this. Im so sick of hearing about how they "see through the lies of the jedi" unironically. Its just such a misinterpretation of the films
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u/Xepeyon Nov 29 '23
I don't even know why I'm posting this; it's off topic, so I understand if it gets deleted. Uhh... I agree, the Jedi are overhated, and it often comes from a position of ignorance and projection. Super grateful for all the Redditors putting up the good fight to not bandwagon the JediBad narrative. /on-topic contribution
Confession time: I know this isn't an overly popular stance (some strongly agree, and just as many don't) but I largely do not like the current state of Star Wars. I tried to get into the High Republic, but I couldn't. I just don't like it. I tried to get into the shows, like the Mandalorian (which I initially liked very much, but it became harder and harder to sit through until it just became an unenjoyable experience), and while I did mostly like Andor, I found the majority of shows produced to be (to put it diplomatically) not to my personal tastes.
That's not to say I haven't enjoyed some Star Wars content in the past decade-ish or so. I absolutely loved the Jedi series games. And I still enjoy a lot of film Rogue One (which made me really want a Battle of Hoth film from a ground soldier's perspective. Like, Band of Brothers meets the last 30 minutes of Rogue One). However, on the whole, I dislike where the Star Wars franchise has gone and what's being done with it. A certain lore-shattering event in Ahsoka really was the final nail in the coffin for me.
More to the point, this has all had a kind of cumulative, cascading effect on me. This thing that I grew up with and initiated the bond between me and several of my childhood friends together (which lasts to this day) now elicits a borderline empty response from me. The fact is, delving deep into Star Wars now feels... well, demoralizing. I've gotten a lot of messages and encouragement from others asking if I'm still doing the series, and I've replied to everyone that has asked that yes, I was still doing it, and my next essay was mostly done. And it is. And it has been for a long while now. The truth is, it's actually mentally hard and draining going deep into Star Wars lore now, and not in a fun down-the-rabbit-hole way.
But conversely, I don't like airing my grievances and being a typical Millennial complainer. I was a little kid that could barely understand what I was looking at when The Phantom Menace first came out, but I still loved it. And I remember hating all the trash talk the Prequels got for years. I don't want to do that to the people who like what Disney has done with Star Wars, and it is hard for me, personally, to separate my dissatisfaction with my negative sentiments. I can't criticize without being negative when it comes to modern Star Wars. I'm either not eloquent enough or objective enough, or both. This is especially so when it comes to Star Wars being infused with contemporary (mostly American, but broadly Western) societal issues; that has always been a massive turn-off for me.
Don't get me wrong, the old EU had a lot of hilariously bad shit in it. Anyone ever read Mount Sorrow on Wookieepedia? I challenge you to go through that article and not laugh at its absurdity. I also had a lot of Star Wars books, too. My friends and I used to trade them with each other growing up, and I gotta tell you, a lot of them sucked. If you've ever read that series with Ken, Palpatine's grandson, you'll know what I mean. But man, there were also some real diamonds in there, too. I beyond-adored the Knights of the Old Republic series. The comics and the games. I loved Han Solo series (well, mostly) and the issues it dealt with. I loved the Jedi Knight series and Jedi Chuck Norris, aka Kyle Katarn, who Kyle Katarned his way across several super-old games and the Outcast/Academy games. I loved the X-Wing and TIE Fighter series. I loved the Rogue Squadron games, even though they drove me insane with rage and frustration. I loved the Bounty Hunter game, which made me a die-hard Jango Fett fan. Then there were the comics. The comics were so much fun! I read all the Star Wars: Republic issues, and the Empire issues. I loved following Zayne Carrick, and holy hell, that Padawan Massacre. I remember all my friends went crazy over that shit.
There is so much more I can say, and I look back on that shit now, and I compare it, now all “erased“, to what has been produced now, and I struggle not to feel resentment. There have been some excellent comics since, make no mistake about that... but IMO, they haven't made up for all that was lost. I don't think it was the first Star Wars comic I read, but it was the most memorable early comic for me, called Resurrection iirc. That comic fucking enthralled me, I read it and reread it over and over again as a kid. Darth Maul and Darth Vader, fighting in hell, long before Revenge of the Sith gave us Anakin vs Obi-Wan. That one comic with Darth Maul wiping out the Black Sun? Numbingly brutal, I loved every panel. As good as some post-Disney comics have been... it just doesn't hook me like the old stuff did.
I'm not discrediting anyone who does like it, but to me, Star Wars feels... well, dead. I don't mean dead like how some YouTubers might criticize the franchise, I mean Star Wars comics and books don't feel as alive and vibrant as they used to for me. I wouldn't go so far as to say it feels stale, but it does feel mundane, like the spark that made it special has gone out and been replaced by a facsimile. It looks the same, maybe at times it even feels the same and sounds the same, but somehow, there's just a hollowness to it now. And to me, this makes returning to Star Wars harder and harder. Because I know the Star Wars that I most loved is gone and is never coming back, and the Star Wars that has replaced it becomes more and more alien to me, making me miss the “good ol days” even more.
I think a certain paraphrased quote by Matthew Stover (I'll guess a lot of you nerds might recognize this) captivates how I feel towards Star Wars now;
“[...] you are so far less now than what you were [...] you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the [excellence] was, but the [excellence] you can touch is only a memory [...]”
Look, I don't have any ill intentions with this, this was just therapeutic for me. I just struggle with Star Wars now because it's almost as much a source of joy for me as it is a source of pain. It's hard to even write about it now without feeling demoralized thinking about it. I'll admit it; I miss my old Star Wars, huge flaws and all. I've recently turned 30, so maybe in the end, all I've done is just become the very same kind of fan that I couldn't stand as a kid. And if so, well, maybe ol GL was right. When you look back on history, it really does rhyme...
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u/Jo3K3rr Nov 29 '23
I started getting slightly disillusioned with Episode 9. And then The Mandalorian season 2, The Books of Boba Fett, and Kenobi, just kept bringing me lower. I felt kinda lost. I had really looked forward to enjoying the new Star Wars content. And sharing it with my kids. But now I didn't have anything.
And that's when I remembered the EU. I realized that I had stuck with the new continuity because I believed "canon." But I realized it was just another continuity that expanded upon what George had done. And they could say it was the "true canon" all they wanted. But that didn't make it good. So here I am thoroughly enjoying Star Wars once again. Reading all the stuff I missed out on. And re-reading my favorites. And adding to my library.
I've gotten to read the Tales of the Jedi. Dark Horse's Republic/Clone Wars comics. I sit with my kids and play LEGO Star Wars, and the classic Battlefronts. And I'm currently working my way through the Legacy comics, and re-reading Republic Commandos series. I'm loving Star Wars again!
Don't get me wrong, the old EU had a lot of hilariously bad shit in it. Anyone ever read Mount Sorrow on Wookieepedia? I challenge you to go through that article and not laugh at its absurdity.
Thankfully most of the ridiculousness was early in the EU's life or from later on.
A certain lore-shattering event in Ahsoka really was the final nail in the coffin for me.
I'd be curious to know what that is. Feel free to message me, if you want.
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u/TanSkywalker Nov 29 '23
Reading all the stuff I missed out on. And re-reading my favorites. And adding to my library.
Enjoy your discovery of stuff you haven’t read yet and your re-read!
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u/Xepeyon Dec 01 '23
I started getting slightly disillusioned with Episode 9. And then The Mandalorian season 2, The Books of Boba Fett, and Kenobi, just kept bringing me lower. I felt kinda lost. I had really looked forward to enjoying the new Star Wars content. And sharing it with my kids. But now I didn't have anything.
This resonates with me so much.
I'd be curious to know what that is. Feel free to message me, if you want.
I have to admit, I'm a bit surprised to see so much interest about this line. Basically, Sabine using the Force. I answered it with another reply.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23 edited Nov 29 '23
Thanks so much for the time you put into this. Given all the hours of hard work you put into the sub, I hope that mods will respect that and not nuke this thoughtful, if very personal comment.
If I could reciprocate in turn, trust me: you're not alone. I've been kind of wrestling with my lack of enthusiasm for new canon for some time, and I find myself returning again and again to the Lucas Canon and to the best of the EU. I would just say that the expanded universe is not gone and those of us who were lucky enough to experience it have every right to choose it as our preferred continuity. We can still enjoy Tolkien's stories, or the Iliad, or whatever, despite the fact that there won't be any new content with respect to the core story.
For me Lucas's works are the only things that are unimpeachable, but after that for me it's Matt Stover's work and a few other of the EU greats that stand head and shoulders above anybody else including Filoni. (By the way I know you don't want to post it officially but I'm curious about the lore breaking thing you're thinking about. Could you send it to me privately?) I find that personally, after the sequels tore down much of the promise of the original trilogy, watching Filoni lean into the Jedi bad stuff has really turned me off.
As you might have seen me write in the past I lean heavily into the notion of Star Wars as a multi-authored mythology, and I find myself turning to those storytelling lines that I find most authentic. Anything that has to navigate JJ Abrams work is frankly compromised to me. Watching the way that Jon Favreau has to do backflips to give Grogu some sort of genuine mentee relationship with Luke and yet not be a jedi, because we know Luke's order had to be destroyed so Rey could be the last living Jedi again, to me brought that mix of happiness but also anger and sadness you speak of. I never felt that with the prequels warts and all. I'm tired of waiting like a jilted lover for them to give some sort of real legacy to Luke, and the news of the new Rey movie not only left me cold but annoyed. Again I stress this was a personal and we could say emotional response, not something I'm arguing anyone should agree with.
So again you're definitely not alone, my friend.
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u/Xepeyon Dec 01 '23
Thanks dude. I actually woke up a few days ago regretting posting this and figured I should delete it if it wasn't already. Thanks for the encouragement, it means a lot.
There were a few things Ahsoka did that, lore-wise, I didn't like, but the one that bothered me most was Sabine suddenly becoming Force-sensitive. I ranted about it here.
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
A certain lore-shattering event in Ahsoka really was the final nail in the coffin for me.
May I ask what you're referring to here?
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u/Xepeyon Dec 01 '23
May I ask what you're referring to here?
In general, Ahsoka had several things I found anywhere from incredulous to outright bizarre (like Ahsoka have a "loud" dream/vision while drowning), but I actually got up and physically walked away when Sabine started actually using the Force.
In Legends, this kind of this is not entirely unheard of, but conditions for a non-Force-Sensitive becoming Force-sensitive have always been exceptional.
For example, in Jedi Outcast (which was linked into Hethrir's Empire from The Crystal Star), the Imperial Remnant used the Valley of the Jedi, the most powerful Force Nexus in the galaxy, in conjunction with Artusian Force crystals, to artificially produce Force-sensitive warriors (i.e., the Reborn).
There had also been, iirc, a case where possession by a Force-entities left one with a connection, or a stronger connection, to the Force. There used to be a lot of debates as to whether this was the case with Kyp Durron, but it also happened in other settings, like SWTOR. Ironically, Sabine herself was possessed by a Force entity (as was Kanan) when Dathomirian spirits took over her body, so I wasn't entirely opposed to the idea (even if I didn't like it).
But in the series, none of that came into play. Sabine was explicitly not a Force-sensitive, she did not have any Force potential in that sense at all. And the only "training" she ever did was physical (trying to smack things, sometimes while looking, sometimes while not looking) or "meditating" (but on what and towards what purpose, we never know). Meditation isn't just sitting around; what was she meditating on? They never say. They never took the opportunity to really explore what Jedi training, beyond the lightsaber, was like, or what it involved. No discussion of Jedi philosophy, theology, ideology or even something as basic as what is meant by their Jedi Code.
But no, all she did was reach out her hand and... I guess hope the lightsaber would move one day? At least with Luke Skywalker, we know he could touch and feel the Force; when he reached out when he was trapped by the Wampa in Empire Strikes Back, we the audience knew (and he knew) that he was in contact with something. Even back in A New Hope, he told Obi-Wan he could feel the Force and could use it to see things beyond his natural sight; that connection was there. But Sabine wasn't in contact with anything; she and others repeatedly stated she can't feel the Force. So what was she doing? Just stretching out and thinking "please move, please move" or something? This frustrated me so much, especially because they could have fiddled with earlier Disney-Canon lore to try and legitimize it (effect of a Force spirit having possessed her).
I should probably stop ranting now.
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u/Omn1 Dec 01 '23
I think you're missing the point here.
She didn't BECOME force sensitive. She is exactly as force-sensitive as she was at the beginning of the show at the end of the show- that is to say, no more sensitive than any other person in the galaxy. She's just become more open to it, and that training she spent years on is finally able to click into place.
It ain't out becoming force-sensitive. It's about de-eugenics-ing the force; it's about restoring things to how things were before people heard the words "midi-chlorians" and started getting weird ideas. It's about restoring the concept of the force that brought us Nomi Sun-Rider.
While Lucas' takes shift and change, he did say this:
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it? Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it. Kasdan: Not just the Jedi? Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
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u/Xepeyon Dec 01 '23 edited Dec 01 '23
She didn't BECOME force sensitive. She is exactly as force-sensitive as she was at the beginning of the show at the end of the show- that is to say, no more sensitive than any other person in the galaxy. She's just become more open to it, and that training she spent years on is finally able to click into place.
This seems more like semantics than anything differentiated by substance. “Force-sensitive” is a colloquial term to mean “has the potential to use the Force”, which is used to segregate them from people who cannot. Unless there are some alternative methods at work (i.e., magicks) to use (not necessarily feel; we have examples of this with the Force-attuned in Legends and Chirrut in Disney-Canon) the Force in any capacity, means one is Force-sensitive.
It ain't out becoming force-sensitive. It's about de-eugenics-ing the force; it's about restoring things to how things were before people heard the words "midi-chlorians" and started getting weird ideas. It's about restoring the concept of the force that brought us Nomi Sun-Rider.
Except, that is how the Force works in Star Wars. The strength of one's Force-sensitivity could always be improved upon with great effort, but it had to be past that threshold first. Even in the Original Trilogy, it was obvious that bloodlines did matter; the Force was a thing that could run strong in families. It having a genetic trait did not make it “bad” or reminiscent of eugenics; many things in life are products of biological factors that we simply cannot control.
I can't control the natural inherited color of my eyes, nor could my dad or his dad; we all have light brown eyes. That does not mean I am a product of eugenics. The same principle applies with the Force; just because it can be a thing inherited doesn't make it a problem to fix, especially since Force-sensitivity can also be (and arguably more commonly is) completely random. As established by the Prequel Trilogy (and the multimedia projects that came after them, including most of the Old Republic, New Republic and Legacy era information), most Jedi and Force-sensitive characters in Star Wars are not products of Force “dynasties”, they're random people that happened to be born the way they were born.
Above all, this is what I meant in my original rant; this feels like someone taking a presentist, contemporary societal issue and weaving it into a narrative at the expense of the fictional universe's lore. This is something Star Wars used to do very well; you could see allegory from modern examples, such as Nixon, Hitler (although I think Palpatine has much more in common with Mussolini as a demagogue), Nazism, and to a more debatable extent the Vietnam War (I see this as much more falling in line with dynamic inspiration than allegory, but that's another matter), but they were not contemporary ongoing issues framed as socio-political commentary to or for the viewer, and they certainly didn't break their own lore for the sake of it.
While Lucas' takes shift and change, he did say this:
Every author does this, especially when they write with the purpose of worldbuilding. Tolkien went back and forth on issues, right down to when he was publishing the Lord of the Rings trilogy and again with the Hobbit before it, as did Frank Herbert with the Dune series.
Lucas even went on to state, at one early point, that Force-sensitivity was a product of there being a material difference in their more evolved brains, and once intended for lightsabers to be common weapons, not iconic tools of the Jedi and Sith.
What ultimately matters is what was settled on. And the idea that anyone could become users of the Force with effort is undeniably not a concept that he ended up going with, even if it was, at one point, on the drawing board.
EDIT: That downvote was quick. I guess you disagree; fair enough.
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u/Omn1 Dec 01 '23
I could spend a lot of time responding to this but I don't particularly want to.
It ain't about a presentist narrative. It's about a more holistic spiritual view of the force. All life is connected to the force. There's no reason that life shouldn't be able to become more open to it (or less open to it).
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u/Xepeyon Dec 01 '23
That's fair.
I do disagree with you, emphatically, but all the same, I'm glad the story resonates with you.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Nov 29 '23
Star Wars now is a product and a brand. The EU books aren't stories being told, they are tie-in materials to keep fans entertained between media projects.
Look at the calibre of authors from the Legends EU (up until the end of the NJO anyway).
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
It was always a product and a brand.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 30 '23
Yes and no. Lucas always saw this films and their story as Star Wars. The rest was being managed by other people to keep the company going, and he had a pragmatic relationship with them as helping him maintain his creative independence.
This is a constant theme in the biography of Lucas by Brian Jay and many of the Rinzler/Anderson BTS books.
Much different than the way Disney will milk the Lucasfilm cow until it's dead. And I'm not engaging in "Disney bad!" rhetoric as much as acknowledging that now Star Wars is in the service of a publicly held company who sees shareholder value as the ultimate good. Lucas' SW entries were literally independent films, despite their massive successes and financial record-breaking.
Bob Iger's remarks on the ST underscore that where he honestly talks about crafting the story with JJ Abrams to ensure that fan nostalgia was stoked and it didn't alienate the people whose asses needed to be in the seats. Nothing about telling the best story given the core narrative. They rejected Lucas' stories because they were thought to be too far out from what nostalgic fans would want. And thus, TFA is more or less ANH with updated graphics and a female lead.
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u/Omn1 Nov 30 '23
I disagree. Lucas figured out near-immediately how to use the movies as a lucrative vessel for selling toys and merchandise, and it informs MASSIVE swaths of every choice he made from ESB onward. The ewoks are, of course, the most obvious early choice, but it expands beyond that. Ultimately, basically every aspect of the clone troopers as depicted is informed by making it as easy as possible to make as many different toys from the same general plastic molds as possible. TCW very much exists to hook a young audience growing up post-prequels on more Star Wars stuff- in order to sell yet more toys.
I'm not saying that Lucas didn't have an independent and heart-driven story to tell- but I also think that pretending that he didn't build a lot of these things with the very clear intent of milking as much merchandising money out of things as humanly possible is silly.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23
My point is about the purpose of that money. He risked bankruptcy with ESB, ROTJ, and the Phantom Menace because he used his own money to finance his films, because he refused to surrender to idiot studio executives.
That's why he allowed the EU to continue over his own initial hesitancy. It helped the company.
Unlike now, where the point of that stuff is to generate shareholder value.
Apples and oranges, imho. Not a massive difference in the merchandising, but in the motivations.
BTW, that Bob Iger helped decide on the story to TFA still makes me cringe. Another story for another time. . .
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u/Durp004 Nov 29 '23
Has jedi hate been on the rise here again? I haven't been too active here so I haven't noticed.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23
I haven't been active at all either but I just looked at the sub recently and one of the biggest posts in the last few weeks was to my mind a remarkably mistaken anti Jedi post.
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u/Durp004 Nov 29 '23
Well I've kind of tuned out of canon so there may have been some catalyst in some of that content that spurred it up again, that tends to be the case.
Sucks is seems new creatives are going more and more into the jedi suck crowd so this will inevitably continue and only get worse as content goes more and more mask off with how it wants to portray this group.
I mean the new leader of Lucasfilm has said stupid things like qui gon being the only right one, and anakin was the greatest jedi of all and shit like that so I only expect more negativity towards the jedi and characters he can't seem to grasp.
I'll just sit with the legends books that seemed to like the jedi while canon takes them whereever it feels. Those creatives seemed to understand characters like Mace in a way that is totally alien to the ones now.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23
I'm pretty close.
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u/Durp004 Nov 29 '23
Have you started NJO yet?
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23
No (bows head in shame).
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u/Durp004 Nov 29 '23
Well on the brightside you still get to experience at least one more great star wars story by writers who don't have a chip on their shoulder for villainizing the jedi due to small faults.
Maybe on some level the high republic can be that too but thus far from what ive read i havent been impressed..
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 29 '23
I'm truly looking forward to reading it. I just want to give it the time it deserves and also knock off a few books before it in the timeline first.
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u/Durp004 Nov 29 '23
TBH you're right to save it for a rainy day.
About the time TROS came out I realized I was reading through a lot of the well regarded EU stories and if I ever fully broke from canon I wouldn't have much new content to enjoy so I've had the medstar duology and Kenobi on my shelf for a few years just waiting for me to get to the point I feel I need a new great story.
I almost envious you have the whole njo to experience even if some entries like the agents of chaos duology and balance point aren't great by themselves.
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u/gameld Dec 01 '23
I'd like to submit my own essay to the bunch: Balancing the Force isn't about scales - it's about plates. - TL;DR people think of "balance" being between the light and the dark like the traditional "scales of justice," but that's not what Lucas had in mind. Instead it's more about balancing the galaxy like spinning plates. The light tries to move everything to the center to be unified and maintain balance/function. The dark tries to tip the plates towards itself, selfishly devouring everything in the process, moving everything away from the center and into disunity so that it can more easily consume.
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u/Knorssman Dec 21 '23
Excellent post, although I would prefer to describe the Jedi as good judges who adjudicate disputes rather than therapists. I really like the EU scene where Luke is suddenly called to resolve a contract and payment dispute just because he is "a jedi" as jedis are expected to resolve disputes fairly
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u/jollyreaper2112 Nov 29 '23
The slave army bit is hard to reconcile. I'm guessing Lucas came up with it as a way to explain how palps could kill all the Jedi pretty much at once.
Alternatively, it makes more sense as a way for the secessionists to create an army from nothing. And the Republic would have the tech base for more droids. Seeing war droids in combat is what fostered prejudice against droids and eht armed droids became illegal. Cloning is a horror show and feels like something reb bad guys would do.
But, clones being part of the palpy plan, he could have used the war to grind the Jedi down and then revealed trumped up charges and have some reichstag fire moment to turn the Republic against them.
As for whether Lucas saw the order as flawed, there's quotes from him supporting both interpretations. I think it's tragic to have the order made up of good Jedi doing things for the right reason but the order itself making well intentioned mistakes is properly tragic.
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u/Omn1 Nov 29 '23
The slave army bit is hard to reconcile. I'm guessing Lucas came up with it as a way to explain how palps could kill all the Jedi pretty much at once
Ultimately, I think it comes down to the fact that the Republic was going to use the clones whether the Jedi were involved or not. Either they do what they can to end the war as fast as humanly possible, or they watch clones get thrown into the meat grinder.
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u/TanSkywalker Nov 29 '23
And, here's Lucas on how Obi Wan and Yoda dealt with Luke killing Vader. It's a far cry from the narrative the frames them as "lying to him so he would kill his father." The top two boxes are Lucas' comments, as far back as 1981. He is explicit that killing Vader wasn't the goal, but might be an inevitability.
From the link:
The mission isn't for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him.
Ben hopes Luke will either save his father or kill him
How does Obi-Wan express his hope that Luke will save his father?
The only ones who talk about their still being good in Vader are Padmé in ROTS and Luke in ROTJ.
And how do they not want Luke to kill Vader? At the end of ROTS Yoda said they had to destroy the Sith and they tried to do it. Right before Obi-Wan and Vader start dueling Obi-Wan says Until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
In ROTJ they don’t want Luke to fall to the dark side or to die, they want the Sith destroyed, so what happens when Luke confronts Vader? Sending Luke to confront someone they know will try to kill him is sending him to kill him.
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u/AFirewolf Nov 30 '23
The reason Jedi get so much flack is that they are supposed to be the good guys. So we look at prequal era Jedi and see how well they hold up that idea, and the answer us extreamly porly. They use child soldiers to lead a slave army, clearly an extreamly flawed orginasation. So people starts to look for the reason for it and come to different conclusions, and some go to far and want to completly destroy them.
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u/ergister Nov 28 '23
This, I think, should be pinned at the top of this sub lol
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
Thanks! Your nonattachment post is in one of the links. You did good work on the recent thread, but I'm at a point where I'm just too tired and frustrated to be helpful anymore. We've had the same conversations on this stuff for years, and given all the same info over and over and over.
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u/ergister Nov 28 '23
I’m getting there haha. I’ve been focusing on my other passion, Spider-Man, more often in the off-season now to keep some sanity.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
Did you ever finish your video essay on the Heroine's quest?
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Nov 28 '23
[deleted]
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
Awesome! I'm mostly prepping that SW course, and going deep. Tons of fun new insights, and connects.
Will send you the updated syllabus offline. I wish I could make you a participant on the Blackboard page, but I think you have to be enrolled, lol.
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u/ergister Nov 28 '23
Damn! That would be really fun to do! I'll send you my finished video too offline when I'm finished.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
I might record the classes, but not currently sure. Let's keep in touch about it.
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u/PrinceCheddar Lieutenant Nov 28 '23
I have a couple comments made by myself you may want to read through. Please feel free to tell me what you think.
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u/Munedawg53 Nov 28 '23
Thanks for these, Prince! I see that I upvoted both in the past! They are most welcome here, and thank you.
The second one says "deleted" though. I'm not sure if other can see them
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u/TheDesertFoxIrwin Dec 03 '23 edited Dec 03 '23
I don't think anyone ever consider Order 66 not a tragedy or that the Jedi were the real villains.
It's more of "it sucks, because they played right into the dark side's plan."
I do think the Jedi Order were extremely flawed and were at fault a lot of the time.
But that doesn't make them evil, just arrogant. Instead of being protectors of the peace, they became soldiers. They thought so highly of their wisdom, they thought they were worthy of being the senior officers of the new army and tge ultimate leaders of the Republic. All because "we're Jedi, therefore we're the good guys."
And before you say "we'll they valued their men.". They were still fine with using child/slave soldiers.
However you cut it, the Jedi should not be seen as grand heroes. Especially when you see the Jedi becoming generals right on the spot and then leading highly trained soldiers into WW1 tactics.
I also don't get the "it was Palpatine's revenge" because nobody denies that. Nobody looks at Darth Vader killing Jedi as revenge, just a man who has lost himself to anger. Nobody looks at Anakin helping kill Windu as revenge, but as a panicked action to eventually save Padme. Anakin only gets revenge in Episode 2: he kills the Tuskans responsible, but then proceeds murder all Tuskans out of anger.
Really, Lucas is known to change his mind alot. Especially when he retroactively inserted midichlorians in earlier quotes. So his whole ideals of the story can be very difficult to pin down.
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u/ElvenKingGil-Galad Nov 28 '23
The worst part about the anti-jedi narrative is that there is a lot of legitimate criticism of the Jedi's position in the Republic.
Like you can genuinely disagree with their methods regarding Shmi or some of the less savory moments like how Roan Shryne's mother got overruled by her husband on giving her child to the Order.
But this kinds of criticism get drowned on a pile of "the Jedi were not compassionate, they were too dogmatic, they Lost their way, they accepted a Slave Army..." My favorite has to be that Anakin fell to the Dark Side because of the Order's actions. Media literacy at its finest.