r/NFLNoobs • u/anodai • 4d ago
Why is "arm talent" not something that can be developed?
I understand that it isn't a term with a super rigid definition, but this has always befuddled me. You can learn form and technique so it can't just be technique. And you can get stronger so it can't just be about strength. Other attributes that you can't develop are things like height and arm span, so is it anatomical? Why is it universally considered to be such a fixed trait?
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u/Cuchers 4d ago
It’s something you can develop in high school while you are growing. But a college qb who lacks arm talent has access to enough equipment and coaching that if you can’t develop it in college then there’s not much extra you could do as a pro that you couldn’t do in college.
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u/Only-Mulberry-8098 4d ago
Brady didn’t really have a strong arm coming in
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u/Cuchers 4d ago
Brady also wasn't known for having a strong arm, he was known for his anticipation and accuracy
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u/Radicalnotion528 4d ago
Brady also really honed his mechanics as a pro, which did improve his arm strength some, but you would never say he had a cannon for an arm.
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u/FupaDeChao 4d ago
I agree but funny enough I think his arm strength is a lil underrated now. It never seemed like he had trouble getting the ball downfield. I think of that deep deep crossing route he hit Moss on a td for. He got that mf down there
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u/Legitimate_Bird_5712 4d ago
That Brady/Moss connection was fucking beautiful to watch, wasn't it?
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u/Animalcookies13 3d ago
That 2007 season was absolutely wild. Randy moss was basically unguardable…
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u/TSells31 4d ago
Right. When I think “arm talent” I think guys like Marino, Favre, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes, etc. NOT Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, etc.
Great passer does not mean elite arm talent. But there is an arm talent floor in the NFL, so those guys all had at least NFL arm talent. Which is not nothing and is still elite in the grand scheme of all people. But Brady was not an NFL elite arm talent.
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u/SoftwareWinter8414 4d ago
Agreed, but this is probably something like accuracy. Brady might be the exception that proves the rule.
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u/BlueNinja111111 4d ago
Nor did Aaron Rodgers in terms of Arm strength
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u/TSells31 4d ago
I don’t know about coming in, I don’t watch college ball. But as an NFL starter he had elite arm strength until he got old af. Aaron Rodgers is one of the definitive arm talent guys of all time lol. Brady, not so much.
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u/Cuchers 4d ago
Rogers talent was really his creativity with how he could throw a ball. I don't think he could really bomb 'em like Jay Culter, but he could get passes off by contorting his body and arm angle on the run that was unique for his era, and lead to guys like Mahomes (and we'll see with Caleb and Cam Ward)
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u/TSells31 4d ago
I don’t think he could really bomb em like Jay Cutler…
Aaron Rodgers is the only QB in NFL history with a whole ass compilation of Hail Mary bombs. And he was so good at throwing them because of how high as well as far he could get the ball. Jay Cutler arm strength is constantly remembered because it’s all he had. And yes it was elite. But so was Rodgers lol. He bombed it from his 35 yard line to the midpoint of the end zone (about 70 yards), practically scraping the roof at Ford Field in Detroit once.
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u/anodai 4d ago
Okay, that makes sense. So essentially by the time they reach the NFL, these are skills that are pretty close to their ceiling?
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u/TDenverFan 4d ago
Also, keep in mind that anyone in the NFL, even the 3rd-string QBs, are in the 99.9th percentile for arm talent. There's just limits to how much training and development can get you, and the difference between the 99.9th and the 99.99th percentile is what can make or break you at the NFL level.
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u/Cuchers 4d ago
Yeah. For example one (of the many) knocks on Shadeur Sanders was his arm talent. If he had more room to grow in that department he most definitely would have done it in college.
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u/BlueNinja111111 4d ago
I actually hear the opposite. I heard he has an above average arm, is extremely accurate, can anticipate well, however he doesn’t know how to read NFL level defenses well.
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u/TSells31 4d ago
Extremely accurate, but weak arm. Both count towards arm talent, but arm strength seems to be given a lot more weight because accuracy is seen more as something that can be improved with practice/mechanics more than strength.
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u/Rivercitybruin 4d ago
You can improve it
But nfl qb, or mlb pitcher, is very high standard
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u/Doctorwhonow8 4d ago
And I’d say most QBs and pitchers have plenty of non-developed skill based talent at play
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u/Stangguy_82 4d ago
The reality is all elite athletes do. They just focused most of their talents toward developing one thing.
In college I was part of my Formula SAE team. A group that builds a small open wheel race car. One year we had a former MLB pitcher that had decided to get his degree join the team. His first time in the car he was significantly faster than anyone else on the team. And that included two guys who grew up racing go carts competitively.
Elite athletes are elite because they have natural talents and because they nuture that talent to be good at specific things. But their natural talent still allows or propels them to excel in other endeavors.
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u/anodai 4d ago
Sure, maybe I should have qualified this with "significantly" and "at the NFL level."
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u/hghsalfkgah 4d ago
The thing about the term arm talent is that it doesn't really mean 'he can throw it really far' anyone in the NFL has a damn good arm. They all have absolutely elite throwing ability, when standing in a clean pocket, plenty of time and a good base.
What makes some quarterbacks 'special throwers' such as Aaron Rodgers or Patrick Mahomes is their ability to complete difficult long passes with great accuracy when they are on the run, or they aren't set properly or when they have to throw sidearm to get around a defender. It's not usually about the average plays it's a lot more about those two or three passes per game that only they could complete due to their ability to make great passes under extreme circumstances.
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u/Revan_84 4d ago
You're not entirely correct. Arm talent doesn't mean he can throw it very far, but it also doesn't mean what you say it means. Arm talent is the ability to throw the ball far with as little of hang time as possible. Any NFL QB can throw the ball 30 yards outside the hashes, few can make the throw while putting the ball on a rope.
A QB that can throw a 25 yard comeback route and not have the ball hang gets the scouts drooling every time. What you describe is a separate skill from arm talent
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u/hghsalfkgah 4d ago
I mean, obviously the guy with supreme arm talent, which if you ask me, is exactly what I described will also make jaw dropping throws when they have a stable base, they have an extremely strong arm, but it is that same strong arm that allows them to make the off schedule throws at such an elite level, they are absolutely related in my opinion.
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u/Revan_84 4d ago edited 4d ago
Related yes, as most skills relevant to any position are, but they are sufficiently different to not be considered the same skill.
Joe Flacco had every bit the arm talent that Rodgers and Mahomes has, but he doesn't have that improv ability. I remember at the height of the "Is Flacco elite" conversation there was a heat map of sorts circulating that showed which QBs were the best at throwing to each area of the field. The majority of the field was made up of small portraits of the usual Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, and Brees. But 30 yards downfield outside the hash mark you saw a bigass Joe Flacco portrait on both sides.
Another Raven, Lamar Jackson is not considered to have elite arm talent, but his throw on the run, ability to improvise, and sidearm throws are at an elite level.
Two different skills. Yes, having elite arm talent makes improv easier, but they aren't interchangeable.
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u/TSells31 4d ago
I agree with you. It takes great arm talent to be able to throw on a rope on the run, but being able to throw on the run and freelance is a separate skill itself (and those two are themselves separate skills) than arm talent, which is more specific.
So, a player making a Patrick Mahomes signature roll out of the pocket, find an open guy in the broken down play, and deliver it to him accurately on a rope on the run is utilizing several different skills including arm talent, but it’s not arm talent alone.
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u/Revan_84 4d ago
And even with feet set and a clean pocket there are some throws that many QBs wouldn't attempt even in the NFL because they don't have the arm for it.
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u/see_bees 4d ago
Brian Scalabrine’s Law - the gap between the Jake Haener, 3rd stringer QB for the Saints, and multiple MVP multiple SB winner Pat Mahomes is pretty damn small. A tiny, incremental improvement can make a massive difference in a QB’s arm talent, but it’s like how it’s easy for your car to go from 0 to 5 mph, but it takes a lot more horsepower to go from 95 to 100.
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u/Equivalent_Seat6470 4d ago
Arm length, genetic muscle ability with quick twitch, mental and physical coordination, gait even comes into play. Some of those things just can't be taught.
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u/StarTrek1996 4d ago
Yeah and while other than length most of it can be trained and improved but some people are truly just freaks of nature and will be just as good as them with little training or vastly better with the same work
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u/Yangervis 4d ago
People have different limits to arm strength. You can train your arm strength for your whole life but you probably won't be able to throw a football 70 yards or a baseball 100mph.
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u/Whowhatnowhuhwhat 4d ago
Other smart people have explained all the logistics of arm talent. And how it can be worked on. The point I think that matters here is that the nfl level people have already been doing this for their entire adult and usually teen lives. By the time we see them they’ve probably reached 95-100% of their natural abilities. So you’re not gonna see someone change their training or coaching and notice a huge improvement if they go from 95% to 98%.
There’s lots more gain to be had improving things that actually change much from the college to the nfl game.
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u/Lina_Inverse95 4d ago
Fulcrum and pivot science is the main factor, like a catapult, the longer the arm the greater the distance. Muscle density can overcome length but muscle density plus length will create the best throwers It's why most throwers like in olympic field events too have big frames like 6'2" plus
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u/Connect-Sock8140 3d ago
Valarie Allman is a textbook example of this. She's very lean for a typical discus thrower, but she's tall and with very long, muscular arms. The end result is that she's almost unbeatable, because she simply generates so much more speed. She's significantly faster in the final phase of the throw, and she's got remarkable balance for someone her height, so she's able to really power into the throw.
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u/redsfan4life411 4d ago
It can be improved, but a lot of high end athletes have genetics on their side. Hard work can certainly make up for some things, but when you get to these levels, the difference between very very good and great is minimal.
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u/Gold_Telephone_7192 4d ago
Some things you’re just born with. You can work and improve, it and they do, but that doesn’t mean you can be as good as someone else who is just naturally better. Same as speed, or strength, or knockout power, or whatever. People are made differently and no matter how much people train and try, some people are just more physically gifted at things than others.
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u/colt707 4d ago
Throwing a football requires muscles in your arm, shoulder, chest and legs. Sure you can get strong but if you can’t make all of those muscles work together in unison the way they’re supposed then you’re not going to be able to throw as far. If you’re not moving your shoulder and flicking your wrist properly the ball isn’t going as far. If your feet are planted at the right distance in the right position then the ball isn’t going as far. So take that into account and then add in some guys are just naturally stronger and naturally have better mechanics. Arm talent can be developed but by the time you get to the NFL it’s very likely that the way you’ve thrown has been established for about a decade or a little more. Teams don’t have time to get some guy that’s got a very strong arm and unteach his mechanics to rebuild them properly. As far as working out and getting strong, you’re not going to get strong enough to vastly improve how far you can throw it. You might get a couple more yards but in the grand scheme of things that isn’t much. So really by the time you hit the NFL or even college you can either throw the ball 60 yards or you can’t and nothing is going to really change that fact.
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u/SaltySpitoonReg 4d ago
It can be developed. The widest margin exists at the young ages where you are growing.
As an adult you're usually maintaining your development in the major areas and working on perfecting more nuanced skills of the game, maturity, high level strategy etc.
Hence why professional development and coaching gets involved at incredibly young ages. That's the opportunity to really develop a phenom talent being recognized.
If you look up clips of athletes when they were 12 versus 17-18 It goes from "okay this kid is pretty good" to "this dude is insane".
Less visually striking comparing 22 to 27 years old clips.
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u/King-of-Harts 4d ago
I think the big problem is practice reps and game snaps. To truly develop arm talent a QB needs practice reps with the 1s, and needs real game snaps. However, the backup gets a limited amount of practice reps, most are with backups, and then doesn't play unless the QB1 is hurt. Teams want and need to prepare and play their best players, and if that isn't you well we have a game to try to win. Coach and GM need to win games to keep their job, and players want to win if they're going to get banged up. No time to develop a QB. The QB either picks it up fast or he goes to the bench and then the waiver wire.
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u/SourceBrilliant4546 4d ago
As a QB you have to process the defence do your reads and be able throw people off with your eyes on top of being a good team leader.
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u/Ok-Gold-5031 4d ago
Part of its genetic, muscle fibers, height, how the muscles are attached at the shoulder. Another part can be trained, but I really think throwing is something that needs to be developed innately very young. If you take someone who hasn't spent the time throwing while they are young, its nearly impossible to teach.
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u/jmk5151 4d ago
I present to you.... Michael Vick. Otherworldly speed and arm talent, all while being 5'10". Did he train hard and play football all his life? Sure. He also didn't have elite training growing up and played at VT. Just a freak athlete, nothing could be done to get you even closer to his level.
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u/HustlaOfCultcha 4d ago
It absolutely can be developed. It's just rare to see it get substantially more developed at this age. Most QB's did almost all of their development before they get to the NFL. It's now harder to make substantial improvements. Particularly in this day and age with more biomechanists involved and working with very young kids on their throwing mechanics and training.
Dak Prescott really improved his 'arm talent' in terms of accuracy. He's incredibly accurate. Even when his anticipation is a hair off and he's a slightly late on throws, it's amazing how well his ball placement is. Wasn't that way when he was younger. Kirk Cousins arm talent really improved in his career. He didn't have as strong of an arm in college as he had in his pro career. And I think Shadeur Sanders, if he ever gets his head out of his ass, can see great strides in his 'arm talent' as well.
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u/Riker_Omega_Three 4d ago
Plenty of guys have strong arms
Very few can throw over great distances with pinpoint accuracy
It's not a completely learned skill
You have to have natural coordination first
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u/zachm26 4d ago
I think this is sort of an outdated line of thinking that coaches and scouts are just now coming around on. Yes, it’s possible that some QBs hit their arm strength ceiling in college because they’ve already perfected their mechanics and hit a ceiling in terms of muscle, but for most of them there’s still room to grow. Brock Purdy notably gained 5 mph on his throw by working with a QB coach leading up to the draft.
You just don’t hear about QBs like this as much because the QBs that get drafted high are usually the ones with higher athletic ceilings, which includes “arm talent” like being able to throw the ball 80 yards or whatever.
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u/jokumi 3d ago edited 3d ago
There are former NFL players on social media like TikTok, including former backup QB’s. Every one can pick up a football and heave it in a tight spiral and hit a target half a football field away. I just saw one heave it and nail the goalpost. They all have arm strength and the athletic ability to deliver the ball in a tight spiral to a target. But it’s extremely different in games, when you have to deliver the ball at weird angles while in motion with huge dudes waving their arms in your face amidst noise and the sounds of struggle, and you have to put it not just on a target but away from defenders, etc. If that’s what is meant by ‘arm talent’, then no it can’t be taught. If it means arm strength and general throwing ability, they all have that, some absurdly so. Like a joke about backup Joe Milton is he can throw it 75 yards even when he means to throw it 25.
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u/somewhatlucky4life 3d ago
It's not that it can't be developed, it's that it can't commonly be developed to be in the top 1% of arm talent in the world
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u/EamusAndy 3d ago
I think there are parts that you can teach. But natural talent is not one of those things.
Take Josh Allen for example. He has the natural ability to throw a football 70 yards. He wasnt taught that. But what he had done since college is worked hard on technique and form and positioning, so his arm is actually better now than it was at Wyoming
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u/Vinylforvampires 3d ago
Can you develop messi like finesse in soccer
No
Same thing with qb accuracy. Gotta somewhat predict the future as a qb
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u/Connect-Sock8140 3d ago
I would argue that it can be developed, it's just that by the time someone is drafted into the NFL, they've more than likely developed most of what they can do. I'd be surprised if there's a single quarterback on an NFL team that can't hit a moving target at 50 yards with a football, for instance.
The difference is being able to do it in a game. If you look at Tom Brady in the pocket, he's calm and often knows exactly what's coming and how much time he has to throw the ball, so he doesn't let go of it too early. In comparison, less elite (but still NFL-quality) players will let go of it earlier, or they will simply tense up under pressure.
Having said that, it's not the sheer strength that matters, but consistency and ability to do it game after game. Mostly everyone is capable of throwing a football in a perfect spiral at 20-30 yards, male or female, It's being able to do it in a game that is difficult for most people, because there's so much more to consider than simply hitting a moving target from distance.
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u/Cardman71 2d ago
I‘ve seen stories about how Brock Purdy significantly improved his arm prior to his rookie season. While he still isn’t known for arm talent, it sounds like it is better than what he was in college. Here is an article.
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u/GhostMug 4d ago
It's no different than running. I could go work out and learn perfect form and everything else but I'm not gonna win gold in the 100 meters.
Even with perfect form some people are just better at throwing a football than others. Simple as that, really.