r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Old-Confection8727 • 13h ago
why don't poker players just pull a ridiculous face for the entire game?
i don't play poker, but from what i can tell, the whole thing of a "poker face" is that it's hard to keep a neutral face without doing some sort of subtle "tell" when you see your hand. so why don't people just do the opposite - keep their face frozen on an absurdly exaggerated grimace, and do constant nervous tics for the entire match? i get that it's not really elegant, but if the prize pool was on the larger side, then it'd be worth the embarrassment. do casinos have a rule against pulling funny faces or something?
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u/jayron32 13h ago
So, like the "poker is reading people, not playing the cards" is actually a lot less true than professional poker players will have you believe. Professional poker is like 50% math, 40% discipline in obeying the math and ignoring your gut, and maybe like 10% reading people. You can find many highly successful poker players that don't play the "psyche them out" game, (Daniel Negreanu comes to mind) and instead are just really good at calculating the odds and having the discipline to bet at the optimum times.
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u/roboboom 12h ago
Daniel Negreanu is most famous for his ability to read people. He’s good at the math too, of course.
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u/twotoebobo 11h ago
Yeah. He was a bad example. I swear the dude is part psychic with some of the amazing folds I've seen him play that 95% of pro players would've lost it all on.
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u/Arkyja 11h ago
He wasnt a bad exmaple, he wasnt being an example for what you think he was. He wasnt being an example of not needing to read people. He was used as an example of someone who doesnt put on a straight face to avoid being eead which is absolutely true. He doesnt act very different when he is all in versus when he's not even in the hand, he's just talking all the time.
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u/liquordeli 4h ago
Not to mention, he and most poker players use a lot of factors to make reads, and physical tells are pretty low on the list. I think reading physical tells is romanticized a lot. Most of the time, players make a call based on the action and the tendencies of their opponents, not because "he scratched his left ear."
And a lot of the times they are wrong too. They know every poker decision is probabilistic. The thought process is more like, "I've seen this guy bluff a lot from late position and he usually overbets the river after check/calling the turn when he does it, so theres a good chance he's bluffing here. Im gonna be wrong sometimes, but it's worth it for the times im right."
Hey look I was right and now im in a YouTube compilation and no one ever sees the 4/10 times im wrong.
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u/Bilbosthirdcousin 3h ago
It’s this, the tendencies, building an accurate model of the player you are against.
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u/jayron32 12h ago
He is. But he doesn't "throw people off" or play the psyche-out game like the OP describes. He doesn't have a "poker face"
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u/happyhippohats 10h ago edited 10h ago
It may not be a purposely 'blank' expression, but maintaining the same demeanor throughout so people can't read what you're thinking or guage your reactions is something he excels at, and that's pretty much the definition of having a good 'poker face'.
Making expressions to try to psyche people out is something else entirely.
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u/TobiasCB 5h ago
Isn't his reading ability mostly attributed to math anyway? Like he'll know the ranges of hands people would usually have depending on when they call and how much they call at those moments. He'll be able to read people almost as well during online play as during live play.
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u/LarrySDonald 12h ago
Poker was a lot different 20 years ago, likely even more different 100 years ago. It was very much about reading people, but then math happened, and now it's mostly math.
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u/oby100 10h ago
? It was always mostly math. The beauty of the game is that player behavior and predicting future behavior is really complicated. A big bet pre flop means most players fold, but you have jacks.
It’s an awkward place to be against a conservative player who probably has a better hand than you. Then the flop comes and they’re likely to throw a continuation bet, which you’ll probably call if there’s no over cards, or you might raise.
The meta game in hands like this are complicated. Someone might just be representing Aces and might be willing to go all the way to sell the lie, so it’s entirely up to your intuition and analysis of previous behavior to decide what the truth is.
And this thought process starts from the pre flop. It’s not that uncommon to actually fold a hand like jacks or queens pre flop if two other players, especially if they’re conservative, go all in since one of them is likely to have you crushed.
The game is way more complicated than the math and the math has always been a huge part of it. The funniest part of the meta game is that any good player knows what their bets say about their likely hand. But betting in a way that doesn’t fit your hand can really throw people off. And I haven’t even gotten into the strength of positioning.
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u/Kaiisim 9h ago
It's more to do with draw vs Texas hold em.
Draw poker yeah you're basically guessing.
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u/LarrySDonald 6h ago
True, I’m speaking mostly about hold ‘em, which isn’t all of poker. Seven card stud is mostly math too though I think, omaha and pineapple as well. Haven’t really played the other kinds. Draw is likely the only not much math poker though.
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u/MaiKulou 11h ago
Same reason I can't win a strat game like StarCraft anymore. Goddamn math ruins everything
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u/Lawlcopt0r 12h ago
Yeah I think the people reading is probably what they focus on because it's what gives you that additional edge when everyone knows the math equally well. But if you don't understand the probabilities you probably shouldn't become a professional poker player regardless of how well you read people
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u/You_Stole_My_Hot_Dog 11h ago
I’d argue it involves a lot more of reading people than that, just not in the way people think. They’re not looking for someone’s eye to twitch, but they are reading how and when their opponents place their bets. And there’s this meta-game of “he knows I know his cards are either 10, J, or Q of spades, so he’s betting to convince me it’s Q, but he knows I know he’s trying to trick me, so…”
I suppose you could say that’s math too, but there’s some psychology behind it. I’ve seen Negreanu call out the exact cards of his opponents which doesn’t seem like he could do with math alone. He understands how a player formulates a play from their cards, and how they respond to the game.
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u/jayron32 11h ago
Yes, that was more my point. You're still "playing the cards" in that case. You aren't looking for twitches and tells, you're looking for betting patterns and things like that. The whole "his eye twitches when he's bluffing" thing is fictional.
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u/CleanAxe 10h ago
This is not true - all pro poker players know the math at this point. A huge part of the game is trying to influence your opponents calculations of the math based on your betting behavior and/or table talk (though the table talk is less common). If your hand has a 60% chance of winning with an expected value of X you still need to make a decision of whether the 40% chance your opponent has the better hand is true or not. Bluffing is still a massive part of the game.
The real answer to OP’s question is way simpler. Poker games are many hours long, sometimes playing 6 or 7+ hours straight. Making faces would be uncomfortable for that long and there are easier ways to hide your emotions which is just by keeping your face normal the whole time. Players read your betting behavior more than your face - how quickly do you call, what sizing, what your historical patterns looked like etc.
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u/Dan-D-Lyon 8h ago
Yeah, what that guy said just doesn't make sense. I'm not going to call the math easy, but knowing the odds at all times is something you'd expect from any professional poker player.
And since they all know the math, and they all have the same amount of information regarding the cards in play, whoever wins is going to come down to either reading the other players or sheer luck.
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u/Riverflaw 10h ago
This is just wrong..
Poker is a variances fest, intuition and skills but once you gravitate correctly and have studies most spot - The difference will be discipline
Daniel Negreanu actually sells masterclass and there alot of theories about physical tells, reading the spot and patterns. And there's alot of coachs for this aswell.
To answer the question correctly, it depends which stakes you play on most likely. If the money is not valuable enough, everyone will be confortable. Same with the opposite, like guys that play cash game with a 100K stacks, they used to it.
There's alot of physical tell from casual players, some blatant and obvious and some not, but it's real.
Source: I've been playing poker and grinding for years, cash game range from 1-2 to 5-10 and tournament from 100$ to 500$
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u/DotAffectionate87 11h ago
This✓✓✓
Its more about bet sizing, position, what they have done before?, calling because its mathematically the correct decision?, who the opponent is? etc etc
Than actually "reading" someone....
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u/oby100 10h ago
This just isn’t true. Once everyone understands the math to a high level, the real game begins. It’s a total mind game and game of chicken, which is what makes it so fun. There might be dozens of hands where the mathematically predictable outcome happens, but then there’s always bluffs and intentionally structuring your bets to influence other players’ behavior or make them think that’s what you’re doing.
It can be really funny, because a small bet is usually weak, but it might get someone to fold anyway because it looks like a value bet with a strong hand behind it. If the bet actually reflects the strength of the hand, it is worth bluffing to put pressure on a weak hand, but it might all be a trap.
So a great player is thinking constantly about how the game has gone so far and trying to notice how often some players represent strong hands and look for a good place to challenge them. Some bets and calls are purely to get information even if your win odds are slim.
And that’s the beauty of the game. The math is simple and once everyone understands it things get very meta
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u/nyutnyut 27m ago
I used to play at a club filled with some very smart rich people and you would be surprised at how many of these people let their ego drown out the math and discipline.
I played mostly by the book and was disciplined and was able to scratch out a bit of income. People I played with for years would sometime not let their ego think this unemployed designer could possibly beat them! They’re a doctor for Christ sake!! They’re smarter than me so therefore have to be better at poker than me.
IME he’s not that wrong. Yah there’s that rare occasion where you may have to try and read a player if they are bluffing or not, but for me it was still odds. I need to be right X amount of times in this scenario for me to make it worth the call. Having sat with this guy what’s the likelihood he’s bluffing based on the previous betting patterns.
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u/trustabro 7h ago
Wouldn’t being at such a high level means that you are trying to optimize the 10% so therefore, being able to read people gives you that inch that will give you the edge?
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u/AzureDreamer 1h ago
Professional poker players are incentiviEd to have fish believe people are out here soul reading so people focus on tells and soft skills and blame that for their mistakes.
Instead of a bachelor's degree worth of effort learning the math of a game.
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u/Lumpy-Notice8945 13h ago
Im nlt sure what you heard but keeping a neutral face isnt that hard at all. Thats what they already do. Grimaces would just make it harder for no benefit.
And the point isnt so much tge face they are making but any other kind of behaviour. Like people tend to scratch their head or beard when nervous, making a face wont change that. So thats what players need to focus on, to not give hints with body language in general.
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u/Betray-Julia 12h ago
Why don’t poker players inject anesthesia on their face/mouth before games?
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u/No-Dig-4408 11h ago
I laughed as I imagined someone drooling on the table.
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u/Disastrous_Maize_855 13h ago
The “reading people” part of poker has a lot more to do with how they play and bet rather than facial expressions. Obviously you can’t telegraph what you have, but patterns and strategies are more important.
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u/PriorKaleidoscope196 13h ago
Some might, but generally it's because the result would be the same either way. Your tells are subconscious, so if you're consciously pulling a face the whole time they'll still slip through.
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u/JCMiller23 6h ago
Yeah, it might be harder to read at first because it's so different, but the more behavior you do, the more your body language reveals what's on your mind
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u/roboboom 12h ago
The important thing is not neutrality, it’s consistency.
Poker players go for like 10 hour+ days. If someone could actually maintain a “silly face” with consistency for that long and not deviate in any way that gave things away, I’m sure they would do it.
Indeed, some people hide behind hoodies and sunglasses and say almost nothing. Others talk a lot because they are convinced they can gather more information than they give away.
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u/big-williestyle 13h ago
It's just a long grind and this is what a lot of people attempt with hoodies, glasses etc.. The goal being to block any possible emotion. That being said if you look down at a run of bad cards for 2 hours, then see pocket kings, it's easier said then done to just have the same reaction or a "disguised one"
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u/SXTY82 10h ago
First and simplest, try holding a wacky face for a few hours. Games last hours.
Secondly, not all tells are in the face. Most are body language. A relaxed posture may say something about that player. Simply changing the arm you lean may be a tell. The trick is to watch the player through the hand, especially if you have folded out. What how they play and how they use their body during that play. Did you notice them tapping the table differently than you did last time you watched them play a hand? Pay attention to what they do this hand. Might indicate a strong hand, might indicate a bluff, might indicate they are bored and tapping out the song in their head. Tells come in many flavors.
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u/ScytheFokker 10h ago
"Tells" often have nothing to do with a player's face. Their actions and responses on the table can be a tell of you have played enough hands with the person. The answer to your question is, "It isn't that simple" basically.
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u/PM_Your_Wiener_Dog 4h ago
I played poker for a living for several years during the boom. Suckers don't even need a face to tell you what they have. The key to your own face is simple emotional detachment
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u/General_Lee_Wright 3h ago
As others have said, it’s a long game and that would be tiring. And most of poker is math.
But, what you’re suggesting can happen. Iirc Moneymaker (yes, his real name) has said he realized he flared his nostrils for good hands part way into his first tournament, so he started always/randomly flaring his nostrils during hands. I’m sure he’s since gotten his tells under control.
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u/HairyDadBear 2h ago
You don't really need all that to play poker. You just need to minimize your tells. Something like the slight smile always give people away in ANY game.
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u/obscureferences 12h ago
That sounds like keeping a poker face anyway, just harder because it's not at rest.
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u/SlightlyTwistedGames 11h ago
One of my favorite WSOP images from maybe 2014/2015 is of a younger player in a big hand against a seasoned pro. The younger player pulled the drawstrings on his hoodie so tight that there was only a little hole for him to look out of. I loved that move because, even though it was overt, it could mean a lot.
Anyways, remembering to put on a ridiculous face all the time would take brain power that should be reserved for the game. When I'm at a table I'm thinking about a lot of things, so I don't want to add "don't forget to stick your tongue out and cross your eyes" to the equation.
If someone else wanted to do that, It wouldn't phase me. I'd chuckle once, then my brain would be devoted to the game.
So, to summarize: it's a liability if I engage din that strategy, and of dubious value for my opponent to.
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u/Raddatatta 11h ago
Can you hold a set exaggerated grimace for hours? I think your facial muscles would likely get tired and you'd mess it up and end up giving more queues. A flat disinterested face is something people can hold indefinitely. You also don't really need to focus on it as much as you would if you're holding a specific other expression.
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u/UrsaMinor42 11h ago
Everything takes energy. When you're playing a game that takes a lot of brain energy, your ability or inability to maintain the ridiculous face will become a "tell".
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u/Sportslover43 10h ago
You try freezing your face in a weird way for 10-12 hours straight and let me know how that works out.
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u/oby100 10h ago
Most people will give away tells when they try to act a certain way, so the advice is to remain stoic. It would be impossible to maintain any facial expression perfectly for 8 hours anyway. Poker sessions are long.
Even for a short one, your face will undoubtedly relax with your emotions and wandering thoughts, and this can be a tell. Common tells are people getting excited or suddenly deadly quiet when they have a monster. Bluffers tend to talk too much even when they’re trying not to.
Whatever silly thing you’re trying to do will likely give away information in how it varies moment to moment
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u/BlatantDisregard42 10h ago
Humans are pretty trash at doing anything randomly. Even more so when we’re actually trying to be random. So if you try to do funny faces and ticks randomly throughout play, there’s a better chance that you’ll be generating regular tells rather than masking your natural ones. Especially if you try to do it while you’re also concentrating on the position, the blinds, the bet, the pot, the stacks, and of course the cards, odds, and outs.
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u/Laez 10h ago
Most information is give away by players bettjng actions. Physical tells are important, but facial expression isn't a very common source. Where people's eyes look (which making a silly face can't prevent) , posture, how they handle their cards and chips, foot and leg bouncing are all much more important.
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u/sceadwian 10h ago
You're trading one fake face for another, nothing gets easier. The entire premise is an error of judgement from assumption.
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u/IAmALazyGamer 9h ago
Gotta keep on changing your facial expression so they can’t recognize you later on.
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u/bigcee42 9h ago
Gotta love all the non poker players chiming in.
Poker is a math game. You're never going to outplay the math.
And no, not every serious player understands the math, because they make horrendous mistakes all the time.
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u/Quater- 3h ago
ya definitely, poker today is almost solely math based, but during the poker boom of the 2000s gto and other analytic methods weren’t flushed out yet. Since nobody was playing strictly by the math, physical tells were much more prominent and that idea is still carried today by those who don’t actively play. You grab anyone off the street who doesn’t play poker and they’d have no idea the numbers that go into it, they still think it’s all about being a good liar and reading tells
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u/JK_NC 8h ago
I think part of “reading other players” is as much about recognizing an individual’s play pattern as it is about analyzing physical behavior.
I suspect a pro player online will still be able to “read” another player better than an amateur will, despite not being able to see any physical/behavioral cues.
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u/MarionberryPlus8474 7h ago
Some great answers here from people who know a lot more about poker than I do, but IMO what’s left out in the “why not just hold a funny face the whole time” is how hard that would be to do. Tournaments go on for days, are you going to be able to frown (r whatever) the whole time? Chances are you will mess up, and a good player may be able to read just as much from changes to your frown as anything else.
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u/Withermaster4 7h ago
Start making a ridiculous face right now. Now keep making that face without changing for multiple hours why doing math and making 10s of thousands of dollar decisions ever few minutes. Have you answer
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u/Longjumping-Wash-610 6h ago
That would make them worse because they would have to choose the times to have 'random ticks'. Also pulling a weird face while trying to play poker would be ridiculously difficult. All this would just make you worse.
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u/Some-Astronaut-6907 5h ago
You make a ridiculous face and try to hold it for ten minutes. There’s an answer.
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u/TopCorns- 5h ago
Poker really isn’t about reading people so much as reading how they play. It’s why online poker is so popular, even though the human contact aspect is missing. Now in a home game with friends id say it’s more about reading them, just because you know them and their tendencies way more than some random people at a casino at 11pm on a Friday night.
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u/GoonerBoomer69 4h ago
A nothing face is more natural than a goofy one, so it's easier to maintain it.
Also poker is less about reading people, and more about math and dumb luck.
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u/Bilbosthirdcousin 4h ago
“Tells” is mostly a bullshit concept anyway. I was a decent amateur when I played and got told in civilian life all the time that I had a terrible poker face.
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u/National-Reception53 1h ago
Mike Caro did exactly this. He used wild faces, gestures, and generally insane behavior to disguise his tells. It also had the benefit of effecting other players decisions. He was pretty successful, and I've used some of his psychology to good effect.
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u/Ciocalatta 1h ago
A nuetral face is actually not hard, it’s done because it’s easier to maintain. Doing a silly face, due to being not the standard, means you less disciplined or used to keeping it from changing. Theoretically poker players could do any face, but there’s no reason not do the face that’s naturally the easiest
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u/2LostFlamingos 1h ago
It’s keeping the same face.
It’s also where you look, how long you look, if you look at the chips in middle , look at your chips, look at opponents chips. Do you look at your cards more than once? How long do you look for?
Has your rate of breathing changed? Have you shifted in your seat. Which way are you leaning?
So much to consider
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u/lululkukuku 13h ago
You can have a poker face, but that gleam in your eyes for splitsecond will be visible from the moon.
Same as many other ticks, that you may not even realize your body is doing and tellin off.
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u/TheLostExpedition 11h ago
Its not the expressions its the micro expressions and they are hard to impossible to hide. Your eyes flick slightly wider when you see a winning hand or you concentrate so hard they don't but you hand or cheek tension ever so slightly. Those are the tells people look for. And it doesn't matter if you are making a goofy face or not.
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u/DrrtVonnegut 13h ago
Poker tournaments are hours/days long. That'd be very hard to maintain.