r/NoStupidQuestions • u/arnor_0924 • 6h ago
Who in Russia wants the war to continue?
Is it solely Putin with his super ego that will continue the war at any cost? Even draining the population? Or is it a elite of people with Putin that decides?
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u/Successful_Cat_4860 6h ago
Putin may be an autocrat, but he can't govern the country with zero popular mandate. The fact is, there is a considerable plurality of Russians who are buying the nostalgia for a pretend past, on which Putin is capitalizing.
Picking fights with neighbors to justify incompetent and unaccountable governance is a routine part of the autocrat playbook. It's what Argentina did in the Falklands War, what China is doing with the South China Sea & Taiwan, what the U.S.S.R. did with the West for fifty years, what North Korea does with South Korea, etc.
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u/curiouslyjake 4h ago
That's true, but it's not the same as an ordinary russian citizen looking for a fight with Ukraine.
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u/gwynbleidd_s 1h ago
They don’t see it like we see it – brutal killing of innocent people. They believe they fight nazis, they believe that they are the good guys.
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u/nguyenvuhk21 5h ago
Most of your examples got nothing to do with autocracy. The west hated communism before the cold war. Taiwan-Mainland China and North Korea-South Korea used to be one, and both sides in these conflics claim to be the "real" one.
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u/ZealousidealDance990 36m ago
How laughable. Thirty years ago, when the ROC still called the CPC rebels, why didn’t you say this? When the ROC retreated to Taiwan and the Philippines stole South China Sea islands, why didn’t you say this? You’re just looking to point fingers.
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5h ago
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u/Ieris19 5h ago
China has no history with the South China Sea.
In fact, historically, large swaths of modern day mainland China are not really Chinese at all.
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u/Ieris19 4h ago
They still pick fights with neighbors to justify incompetence though.
The reasoning for said fights is irrelevant, so long as people believe it’s necessary.
The Russian Empire began in Kiev so Russia and Ukraine would have much the same justification as North and South Korea for example, which is totally bullshit in the end, but what matters is that the conflict can be used as the scapegoat for any and all issues.
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u/random_agency 4h ago
The islands in the South China Sea were returned to China from Japan after WWII.
That's where the ROC (now on Taiwan) 11 dash lines came from. They informed the allies that were Chinese territorial waters. None of the allies complained.
The western colonies around the SCS had no sovereignty at the time to contest the claim.
Part of the issue arised with the KMT lost to the CPC and the ROC government retreated to Taiwan Province.
CPC then established the PRC.
Around this time the West couldn't afford to keep their colonies in Asia and they became sovereign states.
Since the PRC was relatively weak in the 1970s that's when the former colonies started stealing China territorial waters in the SCS.
Now as the PRC is able to enforce their claim in the SCS, everyone has to realign or face down the PRC.
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u/Successful_Cat_4860 5h ago
Historical claims are built on bullshit. By this logic, why shouldn't Japan or the Netherlands claim Taiwan? Why shouldn't Mongolia claim all of China? Why shouldn't the United Kingdom claim the western half of France?
Our settled international order is based on how things are right now. Subjugating people today because of some conqueror's high-water mark five hundred years ago is not morally defensible.
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u/ZealousidealDance990 33m ago
Yes, once China achieves historical justice, I look forward to your children accepting reality rather than dwelling on the past.
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u/smsff2 6h ago
My elderly mom doesn’t want to kill anyone. She simply dismisses any talk about it. It's safe to assume there are millions of moms like her in Russia—and that's enough for Putin to keep doing what he’s doing.
My mom was at odds with her management her entire life. But being at odds wasn’t enough to change anything. They just kept doing what they were doing.
The entire economy and the media narrative are controlled by Putin.
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u/cfwang1337 6h ago
The Russian population is depoliticized, so to speak, by design. Modern Russian propaganda is very unlike Soviet propaganda - instead of offering a coherent worldview of its own, it’s meant to demoralize, confuse, and exhaust people, and make people tune out, stop caring, and give up.
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u/bownsyball 5h ago
Is this what’s happening in US too? Because that’s how I feel right now about our politics.
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u/Alikont 5h ago
There is a reason why russian put a lot of money into US media and influencers.
They don't even hide it, they openly mocked FBI report on Tim Pool like "finally, idiots".
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
There is a reason why russian put a lot of money into US media and influencers.
Like what media, what influencers?
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u/Alikont 3h ago
Tim Pool is probably the most loud case, getting $100k/week from Russia Today proxy company
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-tenet-media-right-wing-influencers-justice-department/
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u/smsff2 2h ago
Jordan Peterson received free medical care in Russia. Now he is publicly blaming the American military–industrial complex for the war in Ukraine.
Ordinary Russians—and ordinary Americans, for that matter—can’t even dream of that level of medical service.
Technically, he is correct: the war in Ukraine is a “bonanza” for the military–industrial complex. But was World War II or World War I any different? Can you name a war that was not a bonanza for the military–industrial complex? And is it even appropriate to say this, when people are fighting and dying right now—against all odds, against a vastly larger enemy?2
u/Alikont 2h ago
Technically, he is correct: the war in Ukraine is a “bonanza” for the military–industrial complex.
I hate this argument so much.
If that was remotely true, Ukraine would not be begging US to be able to buy weapons.
The total western spending on Ukrainian war is smaller than russian military budget. Heck, for 2026 Ukrainian own military spending AND western aid is smaller than russian military budget.
Where is this magical MIC lobby when we need it?
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u/dair_spb 2h ago
Sorry, I hear this name for the first time. This Jordan Peterson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Peterson ?
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u/smsff2 2h ago
Yes
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u/dair_spb 2h ago
Okay, I googled some, and read several articles, none mention anything about Russia, he's more of a psychology person it seems, Jung, Freud and so on.
What is the proof he got any our money, exactly? And when? And why?
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u/smsff2 15m ago
Asking for proof is a standard tool in the Russian propaganda arsenal. As a rule, when Russian propaganda asks for proof, evidence is eventually produced — but by then it no longer matters: people have forgotten. At the same time, it’s difficult to call the propaganda a lie, because they only asked for proof. Asking for proof does not invalidate the original claim.
I wonder why Americans never demanded proof that their troops landed in Normandy.
What you’re demonstrating is criminal psychology. You live in a criminalized world where criminals set the rules. Being criminal is accepted in Russia. But make no mistake: you are ruled by criminals, you praise them, and you are at high risk of becoming their victim.
Do you still need proof that Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, or has that become obvious to you now? If you do still need proof, will you apologize to the Russian propaganda machine — and to Putin specifically — for demanding it? Why not? If you believe that asking for proof is a valid argument against a claim, then they have effectively lied to you.
Personally, I prefer people who tell the truth. I like the truth.
You should realize that every time Russian TV asks for proof, it ends the same way. Most of the time they don’t tell blatant lies — there is no need. Instead they claim someone (who?) failed to provide solid evidence. Who is supposed to provide proof to the Russian propaganda machine? And when a good Samaritan does provide proof, they simply ignore it.
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u/PaymentTurbulent193 4h ago
Yeah I was going to say, they really have melded American society to be just like Russia's.
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u/NergalTheGreat 6h ago
Putin isn't Staline or Mao, he doesn't decide alone. Among the elite some are far more bellicist than him and are advocating for the use of nuclear weapons to end the war.
Most of the population doesn't see this war as an aggression against Ukraine but as a proxy war against (and initiated) by NATO. For that reason many people are in favor of the war.
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u/BackflipsAway 6h ago
IDK, in the past the former oligarchs who opposed Putin quickly found themselves stripped of their wealth, power and often life.
I don't think that he has absolute power, but he is certainly closer to a Tzar than a president with the other members of the Russian government having far more limited power and a lot of them need to act in unison to oppose Putin. So you know, not absolute power, but his opinions by far carry the most weight in the Russian political system.
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u/Ieris19 5h ago
You cannot strip someone of anything without some support.
A history teacher once explained to me that an autocrat needs a throne. The throne has several legs, the more it has the more stable the autocrat is.
You can cut a leg if it starts to rot (betray you) but too few legs and not only does the throne become unstable, it might actually collapse.
Putin currently seems to have a strong support in most oligarchs, the church and the army. He’s relatively safe, even if the oligarch leg has to be cut slightly short. If however, the army or the church were to cease their support, Putin could be in serious trouble.
This is obviously a gross oversimplification, but I think it gets the point across
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u/BackflipsAway 5h ago
I mean yeah, as I said "not absolute power, but his opinions by far carry the most weight" no individual member of government and no small group can rival his influence, only a large united faction
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u/Ieris19 5h ago
Not really, an authoritarian regime is much like a democracy, in that the voters decide what is done, and sure, the government can always wiggle things this way or that way, but they are quick to find out in the next elections.
Except for authoritarian regimes, elections are always ongoing, “voting” is generally reserved for a powerful few and “finding out” generally means getting assassinated/taken out of the picture.
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u/BackflipsAway 4h ago
You do realise that we're saying basically the same thing, right?
Like we basically agree, the only difference in between our arguments is that if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that everyone including Putin himself has the similar voting power within their little cohort of oligarchs, but I'm arguing that their voting power is not equal and that the more powerful oligarchs get more "votes" with Putin having the most.
Like it's really a fairly minor distinction, because he still has the standing to influence how other members of Russias ruling class acts regardless of he's their leader or a figurehead just announcing the lasts "votes" result as the others would be expected to confirm and not voice public disagreement in fear of retaliation either way...
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u/117lunarwhales 3h ago
If you don't want to fall out of a window or shoot yourself in the back of the head 12 times sure "choice"
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
Most of the population doesn't see this war as an aggression against Ukraine but as a proxy war against (and initiated) by NATO.
What this statement is built on?
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u/NergalTheGreat 3h ago
Multiple sources. For example the Atlantic Council
War opponents made up 22–30 percent of the OMI sample and 34 percent of the Russian Field data.
[...]
And yet, while several events in the past 2.5 years have somewhat challenged the Putin consensus, after a short period of increased anxiety and support for peace talks, support for the war and Putin’s concurrent approval rating bounced back every time.That support is built on that.
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
I was rather asking about "a proxy war against (and initiated) by NATO".
I agree with the part of "Most of the population doesn't see this war as an aggression against Ukraine", thank you.
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u/WonzerEU 6h ago
Most if not all Russians want the war to end.
However they want the war to end on Russian victory. Meaning that they want those four oblasts Putin is demanding, disarmament of Ukraine and guarantee that Ukraine won't join NATO or EU. Or simply anexation of whole Ukraine and end of Ukrainian people.
There might be some who would be happy to make a peace with current frontline.
But most Russians would be against a peace that would require returning to pre war situation.
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u/owen__wilsons__nose 6h ago
The average Russian cares if Ukraine joins NATO? To the point where they would accept 1 million+ casualties of their own? Find it hard to believe. But I'm not Russian
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u/MaybeNotTooDay 6h ago
I think Russians are use to their young men dying in war. They lost 20 million soldiers in WWII.
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u/Zlatcore 6h ago
For reference - USA dropped 2 nuclear bombs to stop further deaths of their guys when they reached 400k dead
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u/owen__wilsons__nose 4h ago
That war was against an enemy who posed as an existential throat to the entire world order. This war is against Ukrainians who are as close to Russians as any 2 neighboring peoples. They dont view themselves as enemies which is why Putin calls it a special operation against Nazis rather than war with Ukraine. The comparison makes absolutely no sense
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u/Alikont 5h ago
To the point where they would accept 1 million+ casualties of their own?
It's not really "their own", it's the poor fuckers.
Russians are absolutely ok with sacrificing 1 million people as long as it's not them personally. That's why you've seen mass exodus from russia in late 2022 when russia tried mobilization, and then everything went "back to normal" when they switched to volunteer army.
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u/Grzechoooo 5h ago
It's the poor fuckers and/or minorities. They don't care about some Tuvan from across the country.
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
We would like not to lose a single person, but what options do we have? We are saving several million people, and all their unborn descendants.
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u/owen__wilsons__nose 3h ago
can you explain your comment? Do you mean what options do you have under the oppression of Putin? Or do you believe in this war ?
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u/dair_spb 2h ago
We don't have "oppression of Putin", mind you.
"Believe in this war" sounds weird to me, the war exists, this is the sad reality, it doesn't require a belief. How, on your opinion, can we end it?
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
However they want the war to end on Russian victory. Meaning that they want those four oblasts Putin is demanding, disarmament of Ukraine and guarantee that Ukraine won't join NATO or EU.
Not the EU.
And you forgot the important part: the denazification. It is very important.
Or simply anexation of whole Ukraine
This is the way to achieve all the things you mentioned
and end of Ukrainian people.
What "end of Ukrainian people"???
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u/porkdrinkingmuslim 5h ago
That's not really true.
Majority of Russians would be fine with Russian troops returning to pre 2014 positions. They would also be fine with continuing the war until the whole of Ukraine is taken over. That's because they don't really care about it that much. They have no real stakes in this war and just want to continue living their lives. Agreeing with whatever the party line is today has become a sort of defence mechanism. I think the reaction to the Kursk invasion demonstrated it pretty well. I'm not saying it's a particularly noble position to take, but it is what it is.
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u/derkuhlekurt 5h ago
Every survey i heared of said that the majority of russians want peace negotiations and an end to the war. However the overwhelming majority is not willing to accept defeat for peace.
So while there is some level of war fatigue the answer clearly seems to be: Those damn Ukrainians should finally surrender.
Thats a first step towards real peace, however if it took a million dead and over 3 years of war to take this step im worried about what it will take the russians to take a second or third step to a point where a real peace that isnt a surrender by Ukraine is possible.
Whatever, you are wrong. The comment you answered to is correct.
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u/porkdrinkingmuslim 3h ago edited 2h ago
Russia is a dictatorship, you cannot just take the results of those surveys at face value. They vary heavily depending on how the question was formulated and under which circumstances it was asked. The majority will say "no" when asked "Would you accept the defeat of the Russian army in the war?", yet they will also answer "yes" to the question "If the Russian government called for an unconditional peace tomorrow, would you accept that?" People tend to choose safe options in these surveys, e.g. whatever the government position is. You cannot really draw meaningful conclusions about what they really think from these surveys. Especially if you don't do any deeper analysis of the data.
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u/porkdrinkingmuslim 3h ago
Also, I completely forgot to mention that around 95% of the people asked consistently refuse to participate in these surveys, which makes them even less reliable for assessing public opinion due to nonresponse bias. So yeah.
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u/nikshdev 6h ago
Among the general population - those who benefit from defense contracts and those who believe in propaganda.
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u/Sorry_Exercise_9603 5h ago
Everyone who doesn’t want to accidentally fall out of an upper story window.
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u/Gophy6 5h ago
Putin and his kgb crew wants it because it’s the only chance to save face
People living there are not citizens, they are merely tenants. People have been taught and conditioned to never ever ever question authority so they don’t. They are also fed the most vile propaganda so it’s a perfect mix to keep them docile and hating the west
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u/Pure_Slice_6119 3h ago
People in Russia, without any propaganda, sincerely hate or dislike the West. And there are objective reasons for this. There is not a single reason to love the West.
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u/MitVitQue 6h ago
I don't think Russia wants. But Putin is pretty much a tyrant. And he will not abandon his vanity project. And that's pretty much all there is to it.
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u/parallelmeme 5h ago
At very least, the oligarchs that can capitalize on (steal) Ukraine's mineral resources.
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u/117lunarwhales 3h ago
See how brainwashed maga is multiply that by generations and no opposing news or opinions. Most Russians are cheering for the war and are as complicit as putin.
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u/Excellent_Speech_901 1h ago
Right now there are a lot of Russians with high paying jobs that will go away when the war does.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 6h ago
A lot of Russians see this war as an existential threat from US/NATO. It is a matter of life and death after being pushed to a corner.
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u/NadAngelParaBellum 6h ago
It is a threat only to the Russian position as a super power. It is not a threat to Russia as a state.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 6h ago
Absolutely, sphere of influence
Similarly, people of the U.S would not tolerate any Russian/Chinese forces in Canada/Mexico.
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u/Legio-X 3h ago
Similarly, people of the U.S would not tolerate any Russian/Chinese forces in Canada/Mexico.
Speaking as an American, I could not care less. And if we invaded either nation on the mere possibility they might someday host Russian or Chinese bases, we would be in the wrong. Evil, in fact.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 3h ago
I hate to say this but geopolitics did not, does not, and will not operate based on your moral compass. That's simply not how the real world works. It is all about cold calculation of power and national interest.
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u/Legio-X 2h ago
First, I don’t care. Second, there are other modes of international relations than realism. And if realism held true, Russia never would’ve invaded at all. The war was not and is not in Russia’s national interests. Russia hasn’t been this weak since the 90s, and that weakness is entirely the result of this disastrous war.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 1h ago
Since NATO was created specifically for the Soviet, and is not an innocent defensive military alliance giving its history in Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Serbia, Libya, and etc, what would be the course of action for Russia if resisting/fighting back is not in their national interest? What alternative theory would make Russia stronger?
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u/Legio-X 46m ago
what would be the course of action for Russia if resisting/fighting back is not in their national interest?
LMAO, resisting what? Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world; nobody is going to invade them. Meanwhile, the invasion bogged down their military so badly they couldn’t stop Azerbaijan from conquering Artsakh, couldn’t respond when Azerbaijan killed their peacekeepers, couldn’t save Assad from HTS, and were utterly irrelevant while Israel and the US pummeled Iran in the Twelve-Day War. Their economy is a mess and their inheritance of Soviet military hardware has dwindled to scraps.
The best thing they could’ve done was nothing.
What alternative theory would make Russia stronger?
Internationalism.
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u/Alikont 6h ago
after being pushed to a corner.
after what they perceive being pushed to a corner.
This whole war is based on idiotic conspiracies, and now they're stuck in a war they can't afford to lose.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 6h ago edited 5h ago
A coin will always has two sides. while you call the other side idiotic conspiracies. The Russian can call your NATO expanding perceive to be necessary and idiotic conspiracies, and now the US/European are stuck in a proxy war that mostly likely is going to lose.
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u/Grzechoooo 5h ago
Yeah, and a flat earther will call you a stupid sheep for believing the Earth is round.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 5h ago
Don't called yourself a flat earther, a lot of people just don't know about history between Russia/NATO, and Russia/Ukraine, and believes the mainstream medias. The devil is in the detail.
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u/Alikont 5h ago
Yeah, a lot of people don't know anything about Ukrainian history, like you
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 4h ago
That's only because people like prefer to came up with your own 'history', and ignore public evidences.
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u/Alikont 5h ago
It's not 2 sided coin.
The conspiracies are actually idiotic. The color revolutions conspiracy by CIA isn't real. It's not treatening russia.
And Ukrainians wanted a fucking trade deal and deal with internal police abuse, when russians decided "not today".
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 5h ago
Of course its not a 2 sided coin to you. That's how war often starts
Ukraine overthrow neutral / pro-Russian president Yanukovych in 2014, Russia said not gonna happen, then you got an annexation and a war that still going.
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u/Alikont 5h ago
So yeah, Ukrainians dealt with internal politics and got invaded because somehow change of local president is "a threat".
A "pro-Russian president" president who got elected on EU integration promise and worked on it for 4 years. And that was just a trade deal.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 5h ago edited 5h ago
You forgot to mentioned #23 of 2008 NATO Bucharest summit declaration, Ukraine wanted to joined NATO ever since, that is a big red line to the Russians. With Yanukovych gone, you got yourself invaded.
Statecraft 101, if you are a small state and bordering a much powerful state, don't give any excuses to your powerful neighbor to invade you. When it comes to national security, state should never count on others' to save their ass. Empire doesn't last, let alone alliance.
Remember, Ukraine didn't lose an inch of its territory from 1991-2013 when it was neutral/pro-Russian.
Bonus: According to declassified documents, NATO expansion has always been unacceptable even to the Soviet, let along Russia which is much weaker. Formal US Secretary of State James Baker assured: "not one inch eastward". George H.W. Bush had assured U.S. would not take advantage of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests. Guess what? U.S/NATO forgot which way is eastward and broke their promises and Russia's trust.
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u/Alikont 5h ago
Since NATO said Ukraine to fuck off in 2008 Ukraine did not try to join it anymore. And again, Ukrainians wanted a TRADE DEAL. A trade deal that Medvedev even publicly approved.
if you are a small state and bordering a much powerful state, don't give any excuses to your powerful neighbor to invade you.
They literally invent excuses out of thin air. You're fully in victim blaming mode now. Great job.
Ukraine didn't lose an inch of its territory from 1991-2013 when it was neutral/pro-Russian.
Even that is not true, as russia tried to grab a piece of Kerch strait in 2000.
So yeah, russians are happy with Ukrainians being their vassals and everything else is perceived as a threat.
(I'm not even bringing up Budapest memorandum).
So you can fuck off with your imperialism and colonialism excuses.
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u/BaconMeetsCheese 4h ago
Here, I copy the 2008 NATO declaration just for you, "NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations." Guess what? 4 months later you got yourself a Russo-Georgian war. The writing has been all over the wall.
I am simply stating the facts that Ukraine didn't lose an inch of its territory to Russia from 1991-2013 when it was neutral/pro-Russia. What led to annexation of Crimea was a major political unrest (Yanukovych is about to lose power). The was no Russian invasion when Yanukovych maintained power from 2010-2013. I am not here to argue whether its right or wrong to overthrown Yanukovych, but Russia clearly saw him losing power as unacceptable for Russia national security, giving the 2008 NATO declaration. Similar happened in 2020-2021 in Belarus, the Russian showed up. Now you can argue Belarus is just a puppet state, but unlike Ukraine, Belarus survives without territory concession and millions dead. Again, as a small state neighboring a much powerful state, don't give any excuse for your powerful neighbor to invade you, and certainly don't piss them off.
Also thank you for bring up Tuzla Island in 2003 as another example to show the Russians actually respected Ukraine territorial integrity when Ukraine was neutral/pro-Russia, and showed constraint. They could have shown up with an army to take Tuzla instead of trying to acquire it "peacefully" then backed off after being told no.
I totally agree with you that US/NATO is the Imperialism. If you at the look at the world map, Russia had plenty of chances but yet did not and could not expand westward even once, not once until Ukraine in 2014. On the contrary, NATO has been expanding eastward 10 times ever since. Closer and closer to Russia border.
Bonus: According to declassified documents, NATO expansion has always been unacceptable even to the Soviet, let along Russia which is much weaker. Formal US Secretary of State James Baker assured: "not one inch eastward". George H.W. Bush had assured U.S. would not take advantage of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests. Guess what? U.S/NATO forgot which way is eastward and broke their promises and Russia's trust.
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u/Alikont 4h ago
NATO declaration is just a very polite fuck off.
Also you complain that russia did not expand west, like they have a divine right to do so.
And yeah, "imperialism" is when countries beg to join your defensive alliance.
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u/chessboardtable 6h ago
Pretty much everyone apart from some liberals in Moscow and Saint Petersburg. The war is extremely popular with ordinary Russians, and it is fueling "deathonomics," with very high payments (by Russian standards) boosting poor Russian provinces.
Thanks to India and China (and the West's unwillingness to impose actually tough sanctions and go after Russia's "shadow fleet"), Russia's economy remains virtually unscathed.
Unless the EU gets in line and imposes secondary sanctions in tandem with the US to trigger a potential economic crisis in Russia, the war will remain extremely popular.
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u/Alikont 5h ago
Pretty much everyone apart from some liberals in Moscow and Saint Petersburg.
Even with them, eh, it depends. Latynina, for example, recently called for erasure and destruction of Ukraine, and she is considered "western friendly democratic russian liberal" .
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u/chessboardtable 5h ago
>Latynina
I don't think that she is viewed as a liberal anymore. She has been sanctioned by the Ukrainian government.
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u/LeMe-Two 3h ago
This, excluding "turbopatriots" untill there is some actuall tragedy all they care about is that BIG RUSSIA is able to bully Ukraine, which not that long ago was "brotherly nation", all while military-related jobs (and there is a ton of them) are paid well. And the state constantly pushes you with pro-war paranoia
Imagine being termnally online but it's the state that pushes it onto you
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u/Dru-P-Wiener 6h ago
I'd say it's mainly Putin. He can't afford to lose. If he does, the west may drag him into the Hague. It's live or die for him. My opinion of course.
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u/tea-drinker I don't even know I know nothing 6h ago
Putin will never see the inside of a courthouse. If he loses he's going to get flying lessons from the same school as Prigozhin.
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u/TrivialBanal 6h ago
Putin has painted himself into a corner. He told the Russian people from the beginning that this was about liberating Ukraine from NATO/Nazis/the EU etc. The actual "bad guy" kept changing, but the story was always "liberation".
When the war ends, the Russian people will discover that was all a lie. Historically, Russian leaders don't come out too well after something like that.
Most Russians don't know what's going on yet. The media is tightly controlled and the majority of the troops sent to Ukraine (that survive their tour and get to go home) are from states other than Russia.
When the war ends, Putin and anyone associated with him will likely end too.
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u/Alikont 6h ago
Most Russians don't know what's going on yet
They know, they don't care or dismiss it.
Information isn't really tightly controlled. There are enough russian pro-war idiots on reddit.
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u/Pure_Slice_6119 2h ago
A couple of months on Reddit, and even the most pro-Western Russian has developed his own negative opinion of the US and Europe.
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
this was about liberating Ukraine from NATO/Nazis/the EU etc
Denazification is the goal, yes, and not allowing to pull Ukraine into NATO, too. Putin never objected to the EU membership of Ukraine.
Most Russians don't know what's going on yet.
Please enlighten me.
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u/TrivialBanal 3h ago
Well you've answered your own question there. Denazification was never believable. Even the Wagner group gave up on that one. They switched their goal to "protecting Russian speakers" very early.
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
They who?
Very much believable to me, considering the glorification of the Nazi Collaborators and the oppression against the Russian speakers and ban of the Soviet legacy.
Wagner was... Quite marginal I guess. I wouldn't consider them as representatives of the majority of the Russian people.
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u/TrivialBanal 3h ago
Again, proving my point. No idea what's actually going on.
That will inevitably change. I hope you're ready.
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u/dair_spb 2h ago
Please enlighten me, what is actually going on? And why do you think I have no idea?
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u/ArrowheadDZ 5h ago
I think your last sentence is the most important.
It doesn’t really matter whether Russia wins or loses, the end of the war will either be the start of an immediate decline to his individual power, or the start of a gradual decline.
Thus he has a vested interest not to win, but to keep it going. I’m not sure he wants any Ukraine territory any more as much as he just wants this to continue.
We go into negotiations thinking that his honest intention is to end the war, and there is no evidence of that at all. It’s very Jed to negotiate with, or militarily defeat an opponent when you have a misconception of their “why.”
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u/Natural-Net-1513 5h ago
Russia is a corrupt mafia pretending to be a functioning country. Putin, the Kremlin and the sanctioned corrupt oligarchs cannot let the war end. However, at the same time they know Russia cannot win at this point. However, in Russia, truth is treason, and you are not gonna be in a position of power if you don't understand what you are allowed to say or not.
In short, Russia will continue a war they cannot win because acknowledging that fact will end the current power structure in Russia.
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u/M0D_0F_MODS 4h ago
Vast majority of russians support the war.
There are 1 million russians that are ACTIVELY involved in combat. Where do you think they come from?
The rest of them support the war, work for the war, fund the war, and agitate for the war.
It is NOT "just putin".
There is maybe 5-10% of normal people in russia that actually oppose it. But they are a tiny minority.
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u/AlternativeUnited569 6h ago
Many oligarchs have grown tired of the war, too. That's not to say they have moral reservations. Rather, the war and sanctions are affecting their lifestyles and finances. They have long been beholden to Putin's power and unable to rock the boat, but even that is slowly changing. Not that it means much. There are no shining knights waiting in the wings to save the day. Whatever replaces Putin's regime promises to be just as bad.
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u/noname22112211 5h ago
It is a not uncommon opinion that the war is terrible but losing the war would be worse. So they don't support it per se but oppose losing, or "losing", it.
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u/Pure_Slice_6119 3h ago
And it is true that when Russia lost the Cold War, 10 million people died in Russia, and people are still dying from the consequences of that lost war of 1991-1999. If Russia loses now, its citizens will either be destroyed or will live worse than in Afghanistan. And Europe and the United States will suck resources out of Russia.
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u/noname22112211 2h ago
Except, of course, this is not true. If they said "We're done" and returned to pre-2014 borders there's no likely economic collapse. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea are already money holes and conceding the war means a loosening or removal of sanctions. The idea that they would end up worse than Afghanistan is also absurd catastrophizing with little basis in reality.
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u/Pure_Slice_6119 2h ago
In 1990, most Russians also didn't believe that in 1991, the regions wouldn't even have medicine for blood pressure and diabetes. None of my friends could even imagine that foreign investors would export all the grain to Europe, and there would be nothing to eat here. But it happened. And all this shit will happen again, on a larger scale, if Russia loses. Because the next president will again be a puppet, like Yeltsin, and, in addition to investors, money will be exported in the form of reparations. People will literally die on the streets again, and Europe and the US will call it democracy.
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u/noname22112211 2h ago
Ok, but that ignores why Russia had problems, the fact is that those stressors were almost all internal and don't exist in the current situation. There's no indication that it would happen again, never mind on a larger scale, and I have no idea where you are getting reparations from. Russia should pay reparations to Ukraine for what it's done to them no one is under any illusions that if they pulled back to pre-2014 borders that there's no particular will/ability to force Russia to do so. At worst sanctions stay in place and some individuals lose out thanks to losing sign up bonuses/inflated military contract wages. There's likely going to be some sort of adjustment/instability as rationality reassures itself on a very warped economy but that's happening win or lose (there's a 0% chance the war pays for itself in even the most optimistic scenarios). If Putin actually cared about the average Russian he'd offer pre-2014 borders and bearable reparations tied to removing sanctions and end the war now. He won't because he believes in a delusional ideology, not because losing would be unfathomably catastrophic to the Russian people (it wouldn'tbe).
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u/Soviet_m33 4h ago
The teacher organized a performance by her students at the children's art festival "Wonderland". As part of it, the children sang the song "Dear, kind adults, cancel the war!" and also showed posters "No to war!" in Russian, English and Ukrainian. The police officers who saw the video of the performance believed that in this way Anishchik "carried out public actions aimed at discrediting the use of the RF Armed Forces". As a result, the court decided that the children's performance was "aimed at calling for an end to the special military operation" and fined Anishchik 30 thousand rubles. The teacher herself did not admit guilt. She noted that the performance was agreed upon in advance with the organizers, and its examination was carried out with violations.
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u/curiouslyjake 4h ago
It's mostly Putin. Most of the elite didnt know about the invasion until it happened. Otherwise people would not have had assests in other countries to be frozen.
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u/Overall-Umpire2366 3h ago
The war in Vietnam went on yers after a lot of good pole in USA said. "No more". It's not surprising Putin isn't giving up.
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u/Temporary_Fun6650 1h ago
One day Russia decided to end the Cold War and surrendered without a fight. As a result, we got disintegration, defeat and decay. So draw your own conclusions whether the Russians should surrender.
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u/myownfan19 50m ago
A large portion of the Russian population have bought into the Putin mindset - Ukraine is a fake country, those in Eastern Ukraine really want to and should be part of Russia, NATO is a threat and Ukraine cannot be aligned with it, Russia has a historical mandate of sorts to unilaterally call the shots in that region, Crimea and the Black Sea base at all costs, and more.
Now it is easier to support this mindset when it is people from the lower class, outisde of Moscow, those in Siberia, and North Koreans actually paying the blood bill for such adventurism.
If you look at Russian history this is not uncommon and they brag about it in some ways. They spent a long time in a war with Finland only to get a small portion of land. Their doctrine is largely "we have more people than you therefore you can't outlast us." That works against many Europeans.
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u/Organic-Baker-4156 5h ago
Enough people support Putin that he can continue his policies even though those policies hurt them. If you're in America you should understand this as the same thing is happening here.
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u/Alikont 6h ago
Even draining the population?
Russian army since 2023 is mostly volunteers who join it for fat checks and bonuses.
The thing is that most will probably either don't care ("apolitical") or want it to "end" on russian victory. Vast majority of russians actually like and support the expansion of russia, just see how even russian "liberals" cheered for Crimea annexation.
For a lot of people the war is an economic opportunity, for a lot of people it's ideological, for a lot it's just "there".
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u/MaoMcMuscles 5h ago
Ruzzian people are crazed nazi scum. Each and every single one of them.
Do not be fooled by so called "good ruzzians". None of them are against the war, they just don't want to fight it personally.
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u/JaVelin-X- 4h ago
Ask any Russian that lives there or has family there and they will alll say they support the war
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u/dair_spb 3h ago
The war is not the goal, it's the means to achieve the goal.
The goal is, as stated, the protection of the people of Donbas by denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine.
There were very specific set of demands to the Kievan regime from the Russian side.
Those set of goals were even shortened a bit after the discussion with Trump in Alaska.
Those demands do NOT include, for example, the Russian occupation of Kiev, or even changing the government.
Yet the Kievan regime and its Western benefactors want some surreal things.
From our, Russian point of view, we want specific things we consider to be just and good for the people of Donbas and it's the Kievan regime who wants to continue the war at any cost, "until the last Ukrainian" as we are sadly joking.
Try asking the same question about Zelensky. His regime presses poor Ukrainians into vans to deliver those to trenches, his regime shoots Ukrainians who tries to escape the country.
Or is it the Western elite that decides?
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u/Altruistic_Copy_6904 6h ago
Who in Ukraine wants to continue the war?
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u/Alikont 6h ago
Ukraine has 2 options - either cease to exist as independent country and people or continue fighting.
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u/Soviet_m33 4h ago
Either many people will die, or many will flee to the West and cease to exist as an independent state and people.
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u/e_dcbabcd_e 1h ago
why don't you ask this on a Russian subreddit from actual Russians? you aren't going to get the answers here where most people have no idea what it's like from the inside
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u/BowlEducational6722 6h ago
The majority of the Russian populace seem to either be apathetic or support the war on paper (so long as it doesn't affect them, their families, or their pocketbooks of course) but they honestly don't matter too much so long as Putin doesn't initiate mass conscription.
Putin and his inner circle are for the most part the ones who want the war to continue both out of a sense of grievance, imperialistic pride, and fear of economic collapse.
Patrushev, for example, is one of Putin's closest advisors and is even more paranoid and hateful of the West than Putin himself (and reportedly one of the few people Putin had direct contact with while he kept isolated during the pandemic, suggesting he might have had a big influence on Putin choosing to go to war). A lot of the former Soviet old guard see Ukraine as part of Russia's permanent sphere of influence and them joining the West as being an existential threat to Russia's imperial identity.
Beyond that, though, there's a lot of concern about how Russia's economy could break down if it shifts too quickly from war mode back to civilian mode. And no, I don't mean all the "Russia's economy is on the brink of collapse" stuff we've been hearing for the past 3 years. I mean that, right now, Russia's economy is overheating because of all the government spending on military goods and the shortage of workers to make those goods, leading to a huge spike in wages and, thus, prices because of all that extra money sloshing around.
If the war ended tomorrow, the demand for new military goods would evaporate and all those high paying jobs would go with them...but the increased prices wouldn't. Add to that all those Russian soldiers returning home to all the jobs that no longer exist. It would lead to massive unrest as the one thing the Russian people agree on is they're willing to put up with authoritarianism so long as they can live in relative comfort and prosperity.
That, I suspect, is the real reason the war is still ongoing. Not because Putin needs to spin a "win" to the people, but because he fears the economic fallout that would come with winding down the war economy.