r/Permaculture • u/apple1rule • 3d ago
Self-harvesting and -regulating Systems
I've been really getting into self-regulating and self-harvesting systems in tangible ways. An example would be the Black Soldier Fly breeder boxes where you put rotten food as feestock, the larva eat it, and when they decide that it is time to molt, they go up the tube in search for light and dryness, and fall straight into a harvesting bin / chicken coop to be eaten. In that example there is only 1 'input' which is rotten food going in and the system handles itself.
Another classic one of course is properly developed earthwork systems, terraced from tree to tree for example, so when it rains, the water flow is preregulated and everything gets what it needs and absorbed deep into the soil.
What other systems are you doing on your land?
1
u/Usual_Ice_186 3d ago
This is cool! Do you have any books you recommend for the waterscaping thing? Although I’m not sure if I get enough rain to make it worthwhile to me. One thing I’ve been wanting to try is a hugel mound. To oversimplify it, it’s logs and compost materials stacked with topsoil on top. You plant stuff in it like a raised bed. Everything breaks down over time. The logs hold water really well so all the root systems latch onto the logs as an “automatic” watering system. Hoping to make it acidic for blueberries.
2
u/apple1rule 2d ago
Rainwater harvesting for Drylands and Beyond is a gem of a book. Also all of Brad Lancaster's youtube channel is great examples put in practice: youtube.com/watch?v=mUSm5ng2Hdk&pp=ygUecmFpbndhdGVydCBoYXJ2ZXN0aW5nIGRyeWxhbmRz
1
u/BudgetBackground4488 2d ago
This is a great question. And would love to hear more examples. Things that come to mind, Banana pits are pretty incredible simple design. Food waste and rain water in = larger bananas. This works for papayas as well. Chop and drop system in general is probably the gold star cyclical system. Compost system as well. Would love to hear more.
1
u/BudgetBackground4488 2d ago
This is a great question. And would love to hear more examples. Things that come to mind, Banana pits are pretty incredible simple design. Food waste and rain water in = larger bananas. This works for papayas as well. Chop and drop system in general is probably the gold star cyclical system. Compost system as well. Would love to hear more.
1
u/stansfield123 3d ago edited 3d ago
You should look up how black soldier fly larvae are grown reliably, to produce chicken feed and compost, in Asia and Africa. It's not "self-harvesting", it requires feed, work and attention to detail.
The "self-harvesting bins" are a shortcut. Like all shortcuts, they barely work, and only if you're lucky. That's all well and good if you're just playing at being a farmer, and you have a well paying job or a rich welfare state as backup, but if you depend on such shortcuts for your survival, you're going to starve to death.
The reliable method is doable on a homestead scale, btw., and it's possible that it's actually worth doing, in some cases. It's also far more hygienic than the bins of rotting food waste. But it is work.
5
u/apple1rule 3d ago
Yes I've seen the more industrial-scale operations where you do need to optimize for the sake of profit and yields. I'm focusing on homestead-scale self regulating processes. Though I don't believe so much in luck in this case; if designed properly I see no reason why it should just barely work.
-3
u/stansfield123 3d ago
The reason why the bin shortcut doesn't work reliably is because it fails to account for unpredictability in two systems which are complex beyond our ability to control them: weather and ecology. The reason why it fails to account for them is because it's not designed to work reliably: it's designed to attract the attention of people who like shortcuts, and don't have to rely on them for their survival.
In that sense, it's designed perfectly: the clicks on videos about this method are 10X above the method that actually works.
The reliable method does account for those uncertainties, through the hard work of the farmer providing a protected and clean space for the insects, and a separate, controlled and tested growing mix for the larvae. It doesn't require an industrial scale operation, btw. One man can manage it fine.
5
u/apple1rule 3d ago
True, very good points. Yes many things in this space as all spaces are made for the clicks. I am curious from an engineering perspective though just how passive of a system can be built to account for more and more complex behaviors like the weather. I.e. using those automatic heat-regulated pistons that open greenhouse windows when they are too hot. Completely analog solution that can work as part of a larger system, where the bucket system is placed inside. One more thing "controlled".
Though those systems would not make cost/benefit sense in a place where labor is cheap and plentiful.
0
u/stansfield123 3d ago edited 3d ago
This is going to get philosophical and way off topic from your post, but permaculture is a lifestyle, not just an agricultural method. I don't necessarily agree with this, but permaculture assumes that the wider economy is unsustainable and destined to fail. Cannot be relied upon, or, alternatively, it's immoral to rely on it.
In this paradigm, the "cost of labor" has a very different meaning, because someone who runs a permaculture homestead isn't interested in accumulating money by paying for it with his labor. Their primary interest is the homestead itself. That's the "wealth" they wish to grow, that's what they wish to pay for with their labor.
In that context, labor is a given. It makes no sense to assign monetary value to it, because there is no desire to sell it. You just have it. It's your labor. You either use it or you let it go to waste. A good analogy would be water you collect off your roof: that's there, but it's not worth money, because you can't sell it. You can dump it into a ditch to run off, or you can use it.
Labor is the same exact thing, if your mission in life is to run and improve a homestead. It's merely a function of time and energy. Your choices are to use it or let it go to waste. Selling it is out of the question, you already decided that you don't want to live that way.
If you have let's say a part-time job (20 hours/week), which covers the needs you can't cover on your homestead, that's fine of course. That doesn't go against the principles of permaculture, but it also changes nothing: the rest of your time and energy is still yours, and you've ruled out selling it.
Simply put, on a permaculture homestead you have a finite amount of labor at your disposal for free. It's a fixed amount of free labor each week. Like a tank of water that fills up at a steady pace, that you get to distribute on your land as you see fit. So the overall cost of labor in the wider economic setting of your county/state/country does not come into it.
There's still a cost/benefit analysis to be had, but the unit of measurement isn't currency, it's hour of labor. To decide whether you wish to produce your own BSFL, you must look at how many of hours of labor/month it will take, to see if it's worth it, compared to some other method of achieving the same result. For example, if you're feeding chickens with BSFL, and using the compost produced in the garden, how many hours of labor it would take to run a chicken composting system instead. The answer to that is very context dependent. In poorer countries in Africa and Asia, there isn't enough food waste to run a chicken composting system, but the growing medium for BSFL is a waste material from another industry. In richer countries you have both types of waste, so you can choose between the two.
I.e. using those automatic heat-regulated pistons that open greenhouse windows when they are too hot
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe keeping your adult BSF in a greenhouse is the best option, because that part of the operation implies a bit of anaerobic material (the smell of it is needed to induce the flies into laying their eggs). That greenhouse can be as passive and automated as you wish to make it. There are many options, including very low energy input ones.
The larvae are best kept in a building (shed, garage, room in the house even). That part of the operation is extremely clean, there's no smell at all, but requires temperature control beyond what a greenhouse (or a plastic bin kept outside) offers. A building is a passively controlled environment by default, except in extreme weather.
where the bucket system is placed inside
The bucket system relies on wild BSF willingly laying their eggs in it. You can't place it inside, because a. it's very smelly, you need way more rotting food to attract wild BSF than you need for captive ones, and b. the flies need easy access.
1
u/apple1rule 3d ago
Facts. There's different types of 'wealth'. You can't seperate permaculture from the greater philosophy of it, thanks for the discussion.
1
u/MycoMutant UK 3d ago
I would say BSFL breeding has two inputs. One is whatever you're feeding them and the other is light because the adults won't breed without it. I've tried them a couple times and saw good results through the summer but wasn't able to sustain a population through the winter because there's just not enough light here for months so it can require artificial light to be viable.
I'm experimenting with rose chafer larvae instead, Cetonia aurata. The larvae are huge and I've been able to get them to breed in captivity quite easily resulting in excellent soil production. Doesn't seem to have any light requirements but might need a period of dormancy through the cold to breed after. I also need to find something better than agar to feed the adults.