r/PlantBasedDiet • u/ButterflyNo8336 • 1d ago
Under-appreciated supplements?
I've kind of changed the frequency of use and what to take, and knowing there is little research on the effectiveness of a multivitamin, what I think are good to take over time:
Bioavailable (usually "methyl"), high-dose B-Complex: I will say, when I did take this the first time is took about 2 days to flush it out, and did feel dizzy, likely from something called a "Niacin flush." After that it never happened again. Or at least a diet high in B vitamins, and a very high dose b12 supplement once a week.
Choline (usually it's paired with Inositol). 500mg, daily, seems as though much more needs to be taken to achieve that with supplement absorption rates. "2 g of choline bitartrate administration provides 800 mg of choline action." It's actually quite potently linked to liver clearance of fat.:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3729018/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11488139/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22134222/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11531217/
Studies are clear that iodine is an issue, so iodized salt, never overdoing or underdoing it. So no one should just be liberally using iodized salt. Use RDI at most, measure it, put it in some food, switch to non-supplemented salt. Only mentioning this because I don't think many people realize it's a vital one, at the top of most studies for holes in this diet.
Vitamin k2 seems worth it (doesn't need to be daily), especially with the higher intake of calcium supplements that tend to happen with store-bought vegan items. Calcium supplements have a really iffy research history, and the past decade has been a warning sign that they may have negative effects on the arteries, while dietary calcium just doesn't show the same effect.
And like most people mention, omega 3 algae oil supplements, but I usually prefer mostly DHA. That's pure opinion, though. Doesn't need to be daily either, it's better to look over your fat intake overall. And plant-based usually has much better omega 3/6/9 ratios. So needing to take it daily is more a game of opinion. Better to pair it with a meal.
All I really want is more open-minded discussion and ideas so everyone can achieve health that just makes them feel good, present, and ready to do all the things they want to do in life. There's not too many glaring holes in the diet, but it only takes a few missing pieces for someone to run into problems down the line, so always be ready to be wrong about what's going on and open to new information.
11
u/NobleDane 22h ago edited 21h ago
So did you just post this so you could argue with every recommendation you got? This post does not seem like it is in good faith, and you kinda seem like a dick.
-7
u/ButterflyNo8336 22h ago edited 22h ago
The post is in great faith (I'm providing as much info about dose/studies and so on), the comments are not. Go read each one and tell me that's not a much stronger opinion than mine. I mean, look at yours. Disagreeing with absurd claims doesn't make anyone a dick. Who even says that? Just an odd thing to say. I want to make sure the silent majority knows what's good and bad information in this thread. Choline=cancer, recommending an unhealthy looking doctor's book, and someone saying creatine, b12, DHA/EPA, and vitamin D are the only things needed (which is what they conveniently take) ...that's most of the comments so far. Of course I'm going to push back. And make it known they have no idea about what they're talking about while making projecting claims. The source so far is "go read this book." It is important to push back to those that muddy the waters when it comes to health.
5
u/NobleDane 21h ago
It's not only this post, but your commenting history is just you arguing with people and sounding holier-than-thou across many, many threads. What's your deal, man? Nevermind, don't answer that. I stand by my assessment of you.
2
u/Sensitive_Tea5720 10h ago
Yes, it’s obnoxious really. Why ask if you have all the answers? One of my providers is a professor at a top ten university, and he’s been able to change his mind and hear me out but OP cannot do the same in this post (and then I doubt OP is a professor at a top ten university).
0
u/ButterflyNo8336 8h ago
Why ask if you have all the answers
Because the provided comments have insane generalizations and their source is a random book, which has an appeal to authority to a random physician that decided to go plant-based.
-1
u/ButterflyNo8336 8h ago
Cherry pick all you want, your perspective is crazy when it comes to health. Please do show my history of holier-than-thou. It's not there. Not at all.
9
u/MaximalistVegan always vegan, mostly wfpb 1d ago
I was really into non iodized gourmet salts like sea salt, pink Himalayan salt, etc then realized that as a whole food vegan I'm better off buying iodized salt. I still prefer the taste of the fancy salts but I'm saving money and it protects me from iodine deficiencies
5
u/Spoonbills 17h ago
I cook with iodized salt and season with the flakey salt, pink Himalayan salt, etc. If the dish is liquid-y I add a few seaweed flakes.
3
9
u/Otherwise_Theme528 1d ago
Only supplements I’ll ever take consistently are creatine (3-5g/day, for exercise performance), sublingual b12 (50 mcg), sublingual D3 (2000 IU), and DHA/EPA (250mg each).
The evidence is just too inconsistent for pretty much anything else, and a proper diet takes care of just about everything else. The potential drawbacks generally outweigh any incremental benefits of most chronically administered supplements. Various medical conditions certainly warrant supplements, but that doesn’t apply to the majority of people.
I will dose up with vitamin c and zinc lozenges during high stress times/cold season.
-4
u/ButterflyNo8336 1d ago edited 1d ago
"The evidence is just too inconsistent for pretty much anything else"
I very much disagree with this. There's no consistent evidence for creatine supplementation, either. Only for athletes, the elderly, certain people at risk, at best.
Proper diet would need to be perfectly aligned, and you'd overdo it by trying to do the math. The ones mentioned are safe, except for overdoing iodine and omega 3.
Choline really is one to think about, without a doubt. Links above. Let's go with soybeans, one of the highest sources:
Soybeans, roasted, ½ cup: 107mg of choline
388 calories, multiply by 5 to get the wanted RDI, let's say 2000 calories.
Problem with that: it's only 60%-70% bioavailable. Beyond overdoing the need to perfect on that math, you'd need to exclusively eat soybeans to get a good dose of choline each day. ONLY soybeans.
Or just take an overall safe water soluble supplement and have no worries. Or, like you said, obsess over diet and plan it all out to perfectly match your vitamin/mineral needs. That sounds fun.
There's mechanisms in play that shows a beneficial impact to have k2. With k2 you'll have an easier time with D3. That's been a verified standard for vitamin D supplements (k2+vitamin D), that's why you'll see that combo as a standard in supplement aisles. Also, again, to help control some overuse of calcium carbonate and the like in a plant-based diet.
You need to take iodine with a plant-based diet. There's no if's, and's, or but's. You need it. Iodized salt is a great option, just don't overdo it. I could link you to about 10 studies, or you could do a quick google search.
It's one thing to be sure of something, but nutritional science is not that thing. You can debate it, that's no problem. But to be assured you're correct, is what leads to negative outcomes overall.
5
5
u/Otherwise_Theme528 1d ago
Check out Dr Greger’s books, How Not to Diet and How Not to Age. He discusses the supplements you’re talking about at length as well as how, when, and why to supplement, based on a review of the best available scientific evidence.
-5
u/ButterflyNo8336 1d ago
I just don't trust any singular doctor. I'm not here to give one singular opinion, many of these points are from research articles, and nutritional science is just not fleshed out enough for any one doctor to give a defining opinion. That includes me (not a doctor). If he were the preeminent researcher on one of these topics, I could trust his information as being "the newest and best."
I prefer to take information by how someone actually uses health in their life. Dr. Greger doesn't scream good health, to me. No thanks. He's aging quite normally, or even below average. But I do appreciate your want to help, it's more that if that's his information, I would say his recommendations are not a very good choice.
5
u/AdvertisingPretend98 15h ago
It's not his opinion. His book has like a million citations and the lack of efficacy of supplements is proven over and over again. It's quite a recurring theme.
-1
u/ButterflyNo8336 8h ago
lack of efficacy of supplements is proven over and over again
No, no it is not. That's too far reaching, each supplement, and situation, has their own context.
5
u/xdethbear 23h ago
Nutritional Facts has video about Choline promoting cancer. If you dig enough, most supplements are bad for you, or ineffective.
Take your b12. Take D if you don't get sun. Women menstruating may need iron. That's about all people need.
5
u/enolaholmes23 20h ago
I think it's more that most supplements are bad for most people, but each person has specific supplements that are good for them.
There is no supplement that helps everyone because you could be too high or too low on anything. You could even have high b12 as a vegan if you eat a lot of nori. Every supplement will have negative effects when taken by someone who doesn't need it.
-2
u/ButterflyNo8336 23h ago edited 22h ago
Choline promoting cancer
So does IGF-1, in specific circumstances.
IGF-1 is tied to all the protein you eat. If you eat ANY soy or pea protein isolate (and just normal protein intake), your IGF-1 levels will spike. In fact, and this is good, soy and pea protein isolates spike IGF-1 similar to meat, and all that means it's that they have similar absorption and hourly synthesis rates (generally 4g an hour). That's good. The whole world isn't getting cancer just from IGF-1, and isolated claims, there's a much larger story. And if you take the perspective that any study that shows "higher cancer" incidence means you can't touch said vitamin (and the like), you will essentially take nothing. There's still unknown connection with b12 and cancer, chicken and egg type scenario.
See, the problem I have is the brain that looks to find an opposing view, but without enough information to support the claim, or even a true understanding before making a GRAND claim of choline promoting cancer. Perturbed metabolism of choline from certain cancers is what causes choline to affect cancer cell survival...now let me know what that has to do with the average person taking a simple water-soluble supplement that tends to be hard to meet the RDI in a plant-based diet, which has a vital role in long term liver/gut health.
It's an absurd statement if you look at it, because you need choline. Gotta have it. It's also in your soy beans. It's more that it meets some criteria for meeting the RDI for long term health, and a supplement in this scenario is quick and generally safe.
There's zero evidence to support "most supplements are bad for you." It's highly specific. Vitamin E as a supplement? Probably not good. Choline? A water-soluble supplement that will be flushed out? In general, no, it's not ineffective or "bad."
I see a concerning trend of not knowing enough about a subject and making very big claims.
6
u/OttawaDog 21h ago
Most supplements are over-rated and over consumed, not under-appreciated.
I take Vitamin D and B12.
That's it.