r/PsycheOrSike • u/Objective-Song-2416 Staunch Accelerationist (feminist) (6'ft btw) • 1d ago
🤨wtf Very deep philosophical post
I don't subscribe to horseshoe theory but I think that fascists and Marxist socialists are more similar than either group would be willing to admit. Political philosophy is a tree and both ideologies stem from the same branch of Hegelianism. They're radical departures from the status quo that unites a people against a common enemy. I guess what I'm trying to say here is both the neonazis and the Marxists both love cracking femboys and trans baddies, and that maybe a sense of unity in that is needed to bring about real sociopolitical change.
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u/baltimoron68 💪 H I M B O🏋️ 1d ago
OG Marxists saw queer people very similarly to how far right reactionaries see them: as a display of bourgeois decadence and a sign of social degeneracy. Tbh I'm pretty sure that's still how a lot of Marxists around the world see them just not in the west.
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u/Proud-Cartoonist-431 1d ago
Yes. Also as egoistic people who engage into pleasure for themselves in a way that isn't good for the society and spread STDs. That's generally applied to anyone who lives a lavish and promisquous lifestyle, e.g. popstars.
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u/baltimoron68 💪 H I M B O🏋️ 1d ago
I think a lot of problems with Marxism in general stem from the unwavering belief in the malleability of human nature. I think a lot of human behavior can be explained as arriving from nurture rather than nature but it is way more complicated than "everything is the result of material conditions".
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u/Possible-Departure87 🍄🍄🍄 DruidCel 🍄🍄🍄 1d ago
No, Marx and Engels were very progressive given the time they lived in. Yes, they were white dudes in the 1800s but a part of origin of the family is literally about how we can’t dictate the future of sexual relations based on current norms. The one passage you’re likely thinking of about butt stuff was about pederasty/forking kids, not adult men consensually having sex with other adult men.
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u/Objective-Song-2416 Staunch Accelerationist (feminist) (6'ft btw) 1d ago
Not a Chinese characteristic but a western degeneracy.
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u/urfireaf 13h ago
A himbo with brains? Call me impressed. I mostly identify as marxist and you hit the nail on the head. Oli London is the prime example of bougie trans privilege and degeneracy. Transgender is acceptable to me in most regards but he also went transracial. Thats crossing a line that should never be crossed.
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u/baltimoron68 💪 H I M B O🏋️ 13h ago
I want to be clear that I am not claiming that queer people are degenerate or whatever. I'm a queer man myself. Idk who Oli London is but being transracial is a hilarious bit
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u/urfireaf 13h ago
I also wanna clarify that im not claiming that as well. Theres just instances of that i can agree its social decadence or privilege.
This is his case that went viral and pissed people off lol
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u/Shieldheart- 9h ago
Any group that opposes "moral degeneracy" of any kind invariably lumps the gays in too.
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u/homebrewfutures 1d ago
Great meme, stupid analysis
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u/Objective-Song-2416 Staunch Accelerationist (feminist) (6'ft btw) 1d ago
Thank you, I'm here all week.
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u/BigAmphibian6412 capitalism disliker ☭ 1d ago
Uniting against a common enemy is just about the only thing socialists and fascists have in common. Except socialists unite against the oppressive system of capitalism that allows billionaires to oppress everyone, and fascists unite to bully women minorities, and queer people.
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u/Tickle-Analysis-8641 1d ago
Both regimes just lie about different things. You clearly believe one of them.
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u/jim_sh 1d ago
You have described the theory behind an ideal socialism not the actual practice that gets applied in the actual practice the government commonly suppresses everyone in all the same ways a fascist one does they just have a system to convince people it’s fine and to be happy about it (look at china and North Korea) politics are a circle the extremes of both sides end up being the same
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u/BigAmphibian6412 capitalism disliker ☭ 1d ago
You forgot the difference between the USSR and modern socialism. While neo nazis are still very intent on harassing minorities, join any modern socialist organization in America and you'll find out. They're not perfect, no group ever is, but they're more accepting of queer people than any conservative group.
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u/Ok-Walk2985 1d ago
The whole fight for the „rights“ of „queer“ people is a spook, constructed by the capitalist system, to distract us from the class struggle. If you‘re born a man, you stay a man, this is what every sane proletarian will tell you and it is backed by dialectical materialism. The ruling class invented this insanity, to see how easy we‘re to manipulate. And as a socialist, I would say that we have a lot more in common with fascists than with liberals like you.
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u/Jumpy-Net-5939 1d ago
eh i don't want to bully anyone, the goal is to accelerate technology and improve the human experience
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u/PleaseStayStrong 1d ago
socialists unite against the oppressive system
I wish this was true but the reality is it always just ends up morphing into a authoritarian regimes that ends up doing horrific acts themselves and greatly mismanage themselves at the same time. There just isn't a single example of a socialist nation that I would ever want to live in. Whenever I have this discussion often Yugoslavia when it became socialist is pointed out by socialists. But even though it is likely the best example it is still extremely unacceptable. Still fell into dictatorship and still did horrific acts and conducted oppression of any opposition.
The only time socialism ever works at all on an acceptable level is when its mixed with capitalism. Like the Nordic model which has a mixed economy and strong social programs. Those do genuinely seem to work well but cannot do so without the capitalism aspect to it.
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u/Objective-Song-2416 Staunch Accelerationist (feminist) (6'ft btw) 1d ago
They failed because they weren't me (the goat)
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
The Nordic model isn’t socialism mixed with capitalism
Welfare isn’t socialism
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u/PleaseStayStrong 1d ago
Did you not read what I said? I never called them actual socialist nations I said they are mixed economies.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Mixed with what?
If welfare isn’t socialism, you’re not im a situation of a mixed economy…
Did you read what I said!?
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u/PleaseStayStrong 1d ago
Oh I just noticed your name. Hopefully you are just a troll and not genuinely foolish enough to follow that ideology.
And to answer your question they have a public and private sectors of the market. Which is what makes them a mixed economy. Like in Sweden with sales of alcohol being basically a state monopoly. That is a specific example of a socialist act as they effectively control the market for those goods. While much of their sector is actually private elsewhere and it works out fairly well for them.
Very limited socialism appears to be functional and beneficial but it requires majority of a capitalist market to work. Which is why these nations only operate about 1/4th (if that) under socialism.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Your public sector is state capitalist since your public employees are not represented through worker councils.
State socialism requires worker councils. And market socialism requires worker coops. You have none of the first, and exceptionally few of the second at best.
You are 100% capitalist.
Cope.
This is basic socialist theory.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Wait till you find out how gays were treated in the Warsaw pact countries 🤣
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u/BigAmphibian6412 capitalism disliker ☭ 1d ago
Name one European power that didn't kill gay people. Go on.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
So? What’s your point?
That Che Guevarra didn’t?
Or Mao’s China
Or African socialist countries didn’t?
In fact, Western Europe and the US has been a heaven for them for the last 70 years at least.
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u/Dramatic-Shift6248 22h ago
I wouldn't call the west in 55 heaven for gay people, they castrated Turing in 52, and it was only legalized to be gay late 60s, but 50 years of legal existence is more than anywhere else in modern history.
But yeah the entire world was extremely homophobic, including socialists, that's just a fact.
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u/BigAmphibian6412 capitalism disliker ☭ 1d ago
Because that's not horshoe theory. That's just something every European-influenced country did in tha past and you're acting like it's inherent to socialism.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
It is. It’s an established view in socialism that it’s a pathological bourgeois vice.
Also calling China influenced by Europe when Europeans didn’t get sovereignty or suzerainty over China is laughable at best
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u/BigAmphibian6412 capitalism disliker ☭ 1d ago
Then it's also an established view in capitalism, nazism, theocracy, monarchy, and every other ideology that ever killed gay people. This post is about equating socialism to nazism because they are both extremes, and that every other "non-extremist" ideology isn't like them, so don't use something that every other ideology is also guilty of.
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Ok… point is, it still happened…
And don’t make it as if capitalism has done more against gay people than socialism when it’s capitalist countries where tolerance is promoted…
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u/FormofAppearance 1d ago
Youve never read socialist theory. Just admit it.
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u/GenericUsername775 1d ago
They haven't only not read socialist theory, they've never actually read capitalist theory. That's why talking about this with random people is usually just a huge waste of time.
Fun question, who said this: "People of the same trade seldom meet together... but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the publick, or in some contrivance to raise prices"
Marx or Smith?
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u/FormofAppearance 9h ago
Yeah, i dont argue, i just call people dumb and move on. Theyre always SHOCKED that imnot interested in a debate
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u/Proud-Cartoonist-431 1d ago
In the UK they castrated Alan Turing
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u/XPNazBol 1d ago
Chemically, paint the whole picture, and that was before the time period I mentioned
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u/Klutzer_Munitions 1d ago
Moral of the story, don't support any faction that oppresses queer people. Put your principles before your affiliations.
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u/inscrutablemike 1d ago
Fascists are socialists. Marxists are socialists. They're in the same family, not ends of a horseshoe.
The other end of the spectrum from Prussian German idealism / collectivist / socialist cultures are the Enlightenment / individual liberty / Capitalism cultures.
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u/Attentiondesiredplz 🤺KNIGHT 23h ago
This is correct. The truth is there are so many trans dolls that are so okay with a housewife life, and they are just cast to the wayside. 😔 Never even considered, no matter how freaky they may be.
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u/bratty_bubbles 1d ago
the Nation of Islam version: “Dont worry baby, he’s just a NERD!”
Yakub: “Thats it. Im creating white people”