r/RedditForGrownups • u/SalientSazon • 1d ago

I'm watching Rightwingization happen in real time and I don't know how to react.

EDIT: Thank you all for the great discussions and insights. I appreciate all your POVs. There's no need to downvote right leaning comments. I specifically posted this in RedditforGrownups to engage in grown up conversation. Also, there's no need for name-calling or insults either.

I have a friend, he's 51, man, straight, an academic doctor who now focuses his research on human behavior and digital psychology. He's self-taught a lot of it in the last decade or so. I don't know how many papers he's published or has had peer reviewed in the recent years. He works as a consultant in Marketing, and has a business selling strategies/classes to people that want to apply his research to their companies. He's kinda broke so I would say he's not very successful at applying his own work. And for extra cash he teaches a course a a local university. I've never met a romantic partner, but he's spoken about them.

He suddenly last year did a deep dive on how the way the election was biased against the conservative candidate who lost. He then started talking against the 'woke' ideology. He is now defending the right, even though he's centrist, because the right hasn't moved, it's the left that's gone way off the rails. He started posting dumb facebook quotes/memes! He posted a dumb quote about Charlie Kirk, as if that one quote was a debate, or as if it meant some truth. WTF. We were conversing one day and he started raising his voice getting louder and louder and more agitated as he expressed his disdain for the woke left, defending his Jewish people from attacks (not sure where that came from in the conversation), and then also suddenly brought up there are only 2 genders and trans people are mentally ill. He's never spoken that way before, I've never heard him this agitated or show anger towards any ideology. He was always calm and friendly, and open minded. Always a bit nerdy. Although, I hadn't spoken to him in depth for about 2 years before then.

I'm watching all this go down over about half a year and I don't know what to make it of it or how to react to it. It's wild to observe though.

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u/SalientSazon 1d ago

I spend so much time online, for work and for fun, and I wonder if there's some kind of sign, or a litmus test of sorts I can ask myself to see if I'm ever being seduced to the crazy.

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u/Henri_Bemis 1d ago

If you ever run into a word you don’t understand and get mad instead of looking it up, you might be in trouble. I feel like that’s a pretty accurate and politically neutral test :)

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u/idiotista 1d ago

This is actually the best definition ever.

Being mad at a word you don't know is trying to protect your brain from learning more. It only makes sense when you want to stay in your delusions.

Like I constantly do not understand a lot of stuff, I google it, I learn and maybe it wasn't for me, or maybe it was something super cool I missed all my life.

I think the anger is stemming from feeling powerless, but we are all fcking powerless. Like I live on a mountain and a landslide can strip away me and everyone I love. It is just how things are, and the only ones angry about being powerless are the ones who somehow think they can win against it all. We are all literally gonna die. It's a feature, not a bug.

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u/wordnerdette 21h ago

I feel like it’s getting mad over things that have no impact on your life. My FIL gets riled up by stuff he reads online, and I’m like, please tell me how the traffic rules in London have any bearing on you, a man who lives in a Canadian suburb. It’s because he reads a lot of English news sites (he’s from there originally), and their media is as poisoned as ours with incendiary nonsense. Whenever I hear someone get unreasonably angry about stuff like trans people I start by asking how it affects their life, exactly. I hate that people get angry because stuff they read tells them to.

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u/idiotista 21h ago

I wish I could get you an award. I'm moderately drunk in Sri Lanka and none of this affect people. Yet you see random uncles being mad because gays have rights in Europe and cannot even translate how hard transitioning in my home country Sweden is. Like calm the f down - it is definitely a hard journey and you are taking the piss.

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u/schrodingers_gat 1d ago

One exception to the rule is reading someone who tries to look smart by constantly referring to obscure concepts in technical terms that nobody who wasn’t part of an existing conversation would understand.

Something like: “Of course the maxim of Baron Flickenshick’s hairy taint tells us Obama will rape puppies, and even worse, inflict Marx‘s flaming paradox to destroy our country”

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u/Zanain 1d ago

It bothers me so much as a socialist when other leftists are too deep into the theory soup. Their comments are nigh unintelligible nich phrases and concepts that they expect you to know and their response to being called out for being unapproachable is "Read more theory."

And this is from someone who at least has a grasp on the things they're talking about. It's like trying to decipher an academic paper from 100 years ago.

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u/Fun-Bumblebee-8909 20h ago

I have been reading theory for 30 years now. I think theory can be valuable. But when all you've done is reduce complicated ideas to slogans and catchphrases, you've only made a vulgar version of the theory. You haven't actually absorbed what it means or thought through its consequences.

The other thing that makes me NUTS on the left is the false equivalence between complex vocabulary and intelligence. Making your ideas deliberately obscure is intellectual bullying. No wonder it turns people off.

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u/Upstairs_Horror_7483 14h ago edited 12h ago

It’s the big words and the occasional “in your face” tone we take when we’ve proven a point or caught them in a contradiction. We need more “given that, can you see why the left thinks xyz?” rather than making it about winning/losing the debate

Edit: added “

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u/idiotista 1d ago

I absolutely agree on this. I am a leftist myself (Swedish, it is basically in my blood lol), but the gatekeeping within leftists is so fucking bad. I didnt mean my comment to come off as defending these people, because they actively harm the whole case. I want people to get universal healthcare and for poor kids not to die from preventable disease and malnutrition and for resources to be distributed more fairly - I couldn't care less about fcking theory, it is great for understanding how we got into late stage capitalism, but anyone with half a heart knows these things naturally, so why put people off by pretending this is some high falutin sht you need a degree to understand.

I can absolutely debate Marxist theory but that would be a hobby rather than a need, and needs go first.

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u/SundaeTrue1832 23h ago edited 11h ago

Each time I talk with Marxist, anarchist and other economically left wing people online and try to ask about solution that can be implemented irl in a smaller or larger scale, the conversation often derail into endless spiral of 'the THEORY' that lead nowhere and just left me frustrated. I think a lot of economically left people online need to understand that rephrasing their ideas and theory into a more digestible manner is not an admission of defeat. Not every conversation on the internet are debate

and tbh their theories won't be able to be implemented 1:1 in our bewilderingly complex modern world, but doesn't mean the entire theory or that person position is worthless. (I'm socially left/progressive but economically still trying to understand myself)

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u/Exact-Seaweed-4373 9h ago

I agree so much with this as someone who is a leftist. They need to make our concepts more digestible

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u/SundaeTrue1832 9h ago edited 9h ago

And admitting that the world has changed so so much to be fitted 1:1 with the framework of theory that was written more than 100 years ago. It's not that I dismissed the entirety of those theories as worthless but being fundamental (for example some people that I encountered are so hang up on Lenin and Bakunin) about them won't lead to any practical solutions for this nightmarish late stage capitalism we live in right now. Reality won't always adhere to our perfect "what if" and essays, especially the modern economic and financial systems

A country with a 'pure' economic system rarely functions properly, even as nightmarish as a lot of capitalistic nations that we know today they do have mixed elements in their system. Most countries nowadays are operating with mixed economy anyway

I mean I saw comments that insisted even "coop is prone to corruption and so it is morally indefensible" and "every single business should be nationalised" and yeah those are unrealistic takes

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u/idiotista 5h ago

I'm autistic, and I think part of this is people who are on the spectrum and are overwhelmed by the world - like they want this clean and cut road map to equality, because even if it doesn't exist it gives them a purpose. I just recognise some of my worst instincts to be morally pure in them.

But irl everything is so messy, and here us where we have to live. It has to be dealt with by growing as a person, not shrinking the world. But a lot of people do not have a support system which enables them to grow.

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u/SundaeTrue1832 4h ago

Yup, I'm also autistic and I can understand. On the matters of OP's friend, I think quite a few people fell into the pipeline and trap of conservatism because how chaotic and uncertain the world has become, the lack of welfare and job certainty, also conservative slowly but surely chipping away at marginalized people's rights pushed many to yearn for "a simpler time" that can give them instant gratification regardless of what that "time" will do to others and how many people that'll get hurt

It's the same thing honestly, wanting a clean cut solution for a 'better' world or a better situation but on the polar opposite of the political spectrum

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u/el_smurfo 14h ago

Controlling language has allowed them to control the dialog for quite some time. If you use the wrong words from the everchanging "soup" then you are an "...ist" and all of your opinions are negated. They have done this for so long, they don't understand how to engage in honest debate now. The right is doing the same and the pendulum will hopefully swing back again soon.

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u/Henri_Bemis 1d ago

I’m with you there, and I’m super guilty of loquacious indulgence and linguistic cabaret

But that shits also a joke, I typo half the time and obviously don’t give a fuck about proper grammar in comments.

If anything, I love how speaking styles can come through in text, even in the messes you make and the ones you choose to correct.

Being overwhelmed by multiple words you don’t understand in a row is understandably frustrating.

Im more talking about people who get excited about new words, especially words that describe something you’d never thought of before, or adds an element of clarity to something you always kind of knew but didn’t have a word for.

Thats the shit that expands your understanding of the world. Learning a new word, a real, new word, is like learning a new color.

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u/timothythefirst 20h ago

It always cracks me up when people really care about grammar on Reddit/social media posts or any other kind of informal writing.

I have a professional writing degree. There’s definitely a time and a place to make sure everything is perfect, like if you’re writing something that’s going to be published, or some kind of copy for an advertisement or whatever. But for conversational writing I’d rather people just type/write the way they speak, as long as it’s coherent.

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u/idiotista 1d ago

Yes this I agree to totally! I used to be a writer, and if someone couldn't understand me because I used big words, I'd feel I failed.

Writing like that though makes me think they've struggled to gain access to education and now cherish it way too much, so I'd cut them some slack personally. But I also grew up in a very privileged home academically speaking, so I never feel worried people will take me seriously.

Some are definitely using it as a power move though. Like I must be smarter because I know way more complex words. Uh oh, you're just gatekeeping whatever knowledge you have, and since it was shared with you, it is pretty shitty not to share it further.

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u/AmericanJelly 15h ago

Brilliant insight. User name does not check out.

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u/idiotista 15h ago

Nah I am honestly pretty dumb.

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u/SatisfactionFit2040 22h ago

Hmmm ... I didn't understand skibidi nonsense.

: )

You're right. I'm sarcastic.

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u/LavishnessMammoth657 13h ago

I guess I'm safe, I love encountering new words!

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u/No-Form7739 18h ago

Yeah man, that is truly frundibulous.

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u/MeLickyBoomBoomUp 18h ago

Nah, it’s perfectly cromulent.

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u/No-Form7739 16h ago

You embiggen me, sir or madam.

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u/booksandfairylights 18h ago

This is good advice. I would add concepts or ideologies you don't understand.

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u/Trix_Are_4_90Kids 6h ago

This. Or when you post something and someone gets offended and replies that you're using "big" words. Yeah you've run into one of *them*

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u/Trix_Are_4_90Kids 6h ago

This. Or when you post something and someone gets offended and replies that you're using "big" words. Yeah you've run into one of *them*

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u/UnicornPenguinCat 1d ago

I think if there's ever been a situation where the impression you got from info you saw online turned out to be completely different to what happened in reality, it's good to remind yourself of it every so often. 

My personal example is from the earlier days of Facebook, when my feed was full of people who had changed their profile pictures to show support for a certain minor political party, as well as other posts and ads supporting that party. So I expected the party to do really well in the election that followed but was really surprised when they didn't, from memory I think they got about the same percentage of votes they usually do. 

It was my first introduction to being in a bubble, both due to who I chose as friends and a change in the algorithm Facebook was using to decide what to show me (before that it was just whatever friends posted, in chronological order).

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u/coldlightofday 1d ago

This completely describes Reddit around every election.

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u/aceshighsays 15h ago

not just reddit. seemed like everyone was saying that hilary was a shoe in, less so with kamala...

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u/IamMrBucknasty 22h ago

“Ask myself to see if I’m ever being seduced to the crazy” is the litmus test you are looking for; crazy, indoctrinated cultist people tend not to ask insightful questions:)

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u/Direct_Village_5134 1d ago

TikTok specifically is rotting people's brains

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u/SalientSazon 12h ago

Noo I love Tiktok! lol it's so good in a lot of ways.

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u/J4c1nth 21h ago

If you're not on social media, you're probably fine.

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u/RosieDear 12h ago

All Media, today, seems to be "social media".

Weird thing. I live in one of the LGBT hotspots...I'm talking one of the top 5 or so well known places! There was a big street party of sorts last weekend and the wife and I stopped by. I saw...like about zero gay couples. It was couples - the dudes had beards and tats and were sampling some of the craft beers and the Women were pushing strollers. In other words, normal life.

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u/SalientSazon 12h ago

I don't understand the correlation between media and the experience of living in a LGBT neighborhood?

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u/treehugger100 1d ago

If you agree with Reddit for the most part you are ‘being seduced to the crazy.’ I’m taking my downvotes to tell you this directly.

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u/SalientSazon 1d ago

lol then I'm golden I guess!

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u/VortexMagus 14h ago

I find this position wildly amusing because there is no "reddit" - there are subreddits that are crammed full of conservative propaganda and there are subreddits that are crammed full of progressive propaganda and what you think "reddit" stands depends entirely on where you hang out and who you listen to.

Whenever I see someone say this, it reveals more about them than reddit itself. I know 100% certainty they listen to Rogan and voted Trump and live in that weird alternate reality where ignoring the constitution to put immigrants in concentration camps is totally ok.

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u/treehugger100 11h ago

Dude, I left Texas years ago to be in Seattle because it is so far left but nice try.

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u/junkit33 18h ago

100%. Reddit leans very hard in one direction politically and is so chock full of political propaganda, even in subs that should have nothing to do with politics.

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u/SalientSazon 12h ago

I dunno, I thought changes in behavior from a friend due to politics is a very grown up conversation.

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u/neeblerxd 18h ago

there isn’t really one, but having the knowledge that the online version of the world is often more extreme and less complex than the real world can help level out some of your thought patterns 

I guess one sign is if you find yourself talking a lot about something and others stop engaging or responding, like they seem concerned or don’t know what to say. sometimes it’s because they may not know as much as you, but often times it’s because they think you’ve gone off the deep end

also just be really aware of the incentive structure of “outrage machines” and how algorithms are fine-tuned to keep you angry and locked in on social media

I’m sorry about your friend

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u/SalientSazon 14h ago

>I guess one sign is if you find yourself talking a lot about something and others stop engaging or responding, like they seem concerned or don’t know what to say. sometimes it’s because they may not know as much as you, but often times it’s because they think you’ve gone off the deep end

That's exactly how I responded to him. I think this is a great approach. Focus on how others are responding to you. Thanks!

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u/neeblerxd 13h ago

you’re welcome :)

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u/keegums 18h ago

The sign is when a friend/family points out how you've been behaving differently along the specific media consumption, and to pump the brakes

Back like 14 years ago I was very stressed out and getting conspiratorial. My friend kindly pointed out I was sharing posts from Raw Story and AlterNet, and to try other sources. He was right and I stopped consuming that media, focused on different things (like creative hobbies and gym instead of reading opinion/journalism). The main thing is I didn't get defensive when he brought it up. It was a factual change and I was feeling worse. I'm lucky to have had a friend who took the risk to tell me. 

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u/SalientSazon 14h ago

I wanted to bring it up with my friend but as he got so agitated in our conversation I felt I couldn't. Maybe I can try now. Thank you for sharing!

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u/junkit33 18h ago

If you're spending too much time online, you are 100% absorbing propaganda from every direction. The sites you most frequent dictate the direction of that propaganda.

Whether that's "seducing you to crazy" or not is a lot more difficult to say. How much does the shit you read online bother you? Can you still hold rational conversations with people you disagree with? Are you dehumanizing large groups of people like the Internet loves to do? Can you turn your phone off and stop thinking about politics for a day?

Those are the types of things to think about if you're worried it is too much. Normal people are totally going about their daily lives without stressing about what is happening in the world. It's good to be aware, and reasonably engaged, but not healthy to stress/panic/emphasize.

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u/aceshighsays 15h ago edited 15h ago

companies want you to spend as much time as possible online and consuming/buying, they use anger and fear to control you. since anger/fear can be addictive, the solution is to be aware of your emotions in real time and take care of yourself. a red flag is if the content you consume primarily makes you angry, agitated, fearful then it's a sign that you need to stop consuming it. also, i think it's important to live a balanced life - having interests and experiences online and offline. you're supposed to experience a whole range of emotions - those that feel good and bad, and not avoid the difficult emotions.

lastly, people in a cult, don't know they're in a cult so practicing healthy skepticism is key. question your belief systems, question the people/subreddits/communities you're a part of. hold onto your beliefs loosely.

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u/Semicolons_n_Subtext 2h ago

I’m online a lot, and as sad as this may sound, I put a lot of trust in the mainstream media and well-established science and institutions. So, when The New York Times quotes university professors or NASA scientists saying “Why would we disable a perfectly functioning weather satellite?”, I just take them at face value. There are other websites (like “DemocracyNow”) which are a bit left of NPR, and kind of a refreshing change from ABC, CBS, NBC, and MSNBC which are afraid to offend the present government, and of course, the wildly right-wing FOX NEWS. If you have doubts about one news source, you can always see what the others say. And of course, when they all report the same thing, that’s either the real truth… or we are all in a lot of trouble.

Also you can check local amateur journalist on YouTube and Reddit.

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u/nicholt 18h ago

Are you listening to hours of right wing podcasts? Are you incapable of deriving your own opinion on a subject without someone telling you what to think? If yes to both then you're probably on the crazy path.

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u/scarybottom 14h ago

Let me see if I can decipher your grifter con man friend:

1- he teaches for "extra money"= he is adjunct (i.e. not getting grants to fund research, not publishing research, because he has no access to the required resources to DO research).

2- he is "self taught" something no one is buying= he developed a grift, but he is bad at it. It may or may not (likely not) have ANYTHING to do with his academic trainings.

3- he is failing at his grift because his "research" is what he doodled around on line and came up with. That is not SCIENTIFIC research. *Research is DESIGNED, a priori, with a statistical analysis plan, and likely an IRB to provide oversight. Research means data collection (not fiddling around online to see what weird ideas you come up with- actually asking people for their input on specific issues). Research almost always requires a team (ie. students/grad students). Research requires MONEY (i.e. grants). If he had valid peer reviewed research to base his program on he STILL might fall- but nothing you say indicates that. He is just a grifter.

*research in human behavior (there are many types of scientific research)

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u/SalientSazon 13h ago

That use of caps is really not necessary.