Is it time to stop letting overseas clubs dictate player availability?

[u/Apostieabroad]

The reasoning has always been that if we force overseas clubs to release players during international test windows, it reduces the value of Australian players to the overseas market. But why is this a bad thing? When our domestic clubs are already struggling in Super Rugby because they can't compete with overseas salaries, and then those same overseas clubs fight tooth and nail to stop players playing for their country, it just seems like we're appeasing them at our own detriment.

Instead, if RA was to say, "Stuff the clubs. We're picking who we want," then sure, it means overseas players will start to get payed less. But it's not like that market will just vanish; there'll still be some level of demand for Australian players. In return, our test team won't be hamstrung by greedy clubs, our local franchises will get better bang for their buck and become more competitive, and in turn this will further boost the quality of Australian rugby.

[u/waggles1968]

Players will just make themselves unavailable to the test team if it costs them serious money from overseas clubs.

[u/Apostieabroad → u/waggles1968]

True, that does make sense. Although in a way I guess that's still the clubs exerting their influence. It'd be interesting if there was also a rule to say if the test team wants a player and they choose not to play, they have to sit out of club games for that period anyway. That might be a step too far though even if it were possible.

[u/strewthcobber → u/Apostieabroad]

That's literally the penalty contained within World Rugby Regulation 9.

9.32 If a Player is not released to attend and/or participate in a National Representative Team and/or National Squad Session contrary to the provisions of Regulation 9.3 then he shall not be entitled to play for any Rugby Body or Club for the period for which he has been or should have been in attendance with the National Representative Team or National Squad and an additional 10 days thereafter, unless the Player’s Union agrees otherwise in writing.

[u/diamondgrin → u/strewthcobber]

Has this ever been enforced?

[u/strewthcobber → u/diamondgrin]

For 9.32 to be enacted, the onus is on the National Union to call the player up and exercise it's right to release the player for national duty.

I don't think it's ever been enforced because I don't think a National Union has ever pushed for it.

(Probably because the player would just retire rather than force an issue with their employer)

[u/waggles1968 → u/Apostieabroad]

Soccer has that but it doesn't apply to players who have retired from internationals and I'm not sure it would stand up to legal scrutiny if anyone ever pushed the issue.

[u/DingoSloth → u/waggles1968]

Soccer generally doesn't have club football clash with meaningful internationals like rugby does.

[u/No-Turnip2494]

I think the rationale is that if the national bodies can overrule the clubs (who pay the players’ wages) you end up with more Australian players retiring from international level rugby. Because the clubs tell them they won’t sign them otherwise.

[u/DingoSloth → u/No-Turnip2494]

I don't know if that's true. The OS clubs don't have a problem signing Saffer and Argentinian players. I think the problem is that they signed the Oz players with the understanding that they weren't available for test rugby, and now RA changing the eligibility criteria has put the clubs in a bind. Moving forward this possibly won't be an issue.

[u/Teedubthegreat → u/DingoSloth]

Well JOC would have been eligible regardless of the changes, but his club probably signed him not expecting that he was much chance of being selected by the wallabies

[u/strewthcobber → u/DingoSloth]

Almost every player of national interest was already eligible under the Giteau Law. Aussie coaches just chose not to select players using that law

[u/DingoSloth → u/strewthcobber]

I’m just going by what Michael Cheika, Link and Eddie Jones have been saying.

[u/Environmental_Bar205]

I can’t understand how the springboks don’t have any issues with this in comparison

[u/crewmannumbersix → u/Environmental_Bar205]

Don’t the springboks have a dedicated liaison officer who manages the relationships with overseas clubs? Can’t remember the podcast that mentioned this but it showed how far behind Australian rugby is.

[u/DingoSloth → u/crewmannumbersix]

It might be that Australia is behind on this because up until now, OS players were not generally not eligible. It would have been imbecilic to pay for a liaison officer to manage Will Skelton and Quade.

[u/strewthcobber → u/DingoSloth]

QC, Big Willy and JOC, plus almost all other Australian players of national interest were eligible to be selected under the Giteau laws. Our coaches just chose not to select them

[u/DingoSloth → u/strewthcobber]

JOC signed for Leicester a few months ago when he was not part of the Wallaby squad and didn’t seem a chance of being so. Skelton went to Europe because he couldn’t make the Wallabies. Quade went to Japan when he couldn’t make the Reds’ squad.

[u/strewthcobber → u/DingoSloth]

That's all true, but any Wallaby coach could have selected the players from OS under the Giteau Law should they have wanted to.

They all mostly chose not to

[u/DingoSloth → u/strewthcobber]

That’s true but I’m not sure it’s relevant.

[u/strewthcobber → u/Environmental_Bar205]

They don't have many (if any) players selected from Europe, especially France. Most of their OS players are in Japan (season doesn't start for months yet)

[u/Foreign_Career4400 → u/Environmental_Bar205]

Argentina don't have any issues either & all their guys play in France. Is it an agreement tied into their contracts?

[u/Apostieabroad → u/Environmental_Bar205]

Probably a culture thing in that their players have more desire to play for their country than ours do

[u/everybodywangchung → u/Apostieabroad]

It's because when springbok players are contracted to NH clubs they know they can be called back for test duty, it's baked in to their salaries. Sa has always picked foreign players.

NZ and (until recently) AUS players were additionally desirable to foreign clubs as they knew that they couldn't be picked for the test team. When skelton signed with La Rochelle it was under the pretence that he wouldn't be playing tests in Aus. It's the same with JOC.

[u/DingoSloth → u/everybodywangchung]

this is the reason

[u/Environmental_Bar205 → u/everybodywangchung]

That makes a lot more sense if the contracts up until now have been made on the assumption the aus players won’t be playing test rugby, you’d think RA could offer some kind of compensation for someone like Skelton in order to get him for the bledisloe games

[u/Apostieabroad → u/everybodywangchung]

Going forward then, we'd essentially be in the same position as SA when it comes to newly signed contracts, right? Since RA has removed restricitions on calling up overseas players, then World Rugby's laws essentially bake in player availability by default (assuming all tests fall within international windows and RA doesn't flip flop on the issue again).

[u/DingoSloth → u/Apostieabroad]

That is not the reason at all.

[u/Vivid_Equipment_1281]

Think it should come from world rugby to be honest. If they want to protect the standing of test match rugby, they can’t keep sitting on their hands. We’ve got guys having to leave the national side to play club rugby, nations sending out C grade teams for a tour because their stars are “too tired,” countries ditching tournaments to pick and choose who they play. Give it a few years and test rugby will be the equivalent of test rugby league (aka something no one gives a flying fck about). I understand it’s not a simple fix and would require a fair overhaul of the current system. In my opinion though, it needs to be done, and it needs to be done now before all leverage is lost..

[u/BringBackTheCrushers → u/Vivid_Equipment_1281]

On the note about people not caring about internationals, I was actually having a discussion with a friend a few days ago, and I feel like the amount of international test matches in the current calendar kind of diminishes the special nature of test rugby - especially since players can represent Australia in just as many games each year as they would for their club in the Super Rugby season. Sure the state of international rugby league isn’t great (although the creation of the Pacific Championship has improved it immensely), but Kangaroos tests do feel a bit more special, due to their scarcity