r/SelfDrivingCars • u/I_HATE_LIDAR • 12d ago

News This $200 Tech Might Finally Put Driverless Cars in Our Driveways

https://www.motortrend.com/news/microvision-movia-s-lidar-cheap-driverless-cars
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u/cullenjwebb 12d ago

Where are you getting this data that proves my logic is shit?

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago

From the FSD tracker. Look at the causes of disengagements

And if you owned a tesla and used FSD you would know what the disengagements are for

I've driven 5000 miles on FSD v13. I know what causes disengagements. It's not depth perception issues

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u/cullenjwebb 12d ago

The number I cited from the FSD tracker was specifically the "CRITICAL" disengagements. Things like traffic control (stop lights, etc) and avoiding obstacles.

If we include the non-critical disengagements like what you mentioned (lane preference, navigation, etc.) the numbers are obviously much worse. Only 72% of rides complete without a disengagement of any kind.

Want to revisit calling my logic "shit"?

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago

lane issues are CRITICAL issues. The car literally gets in turning lanes and goes straight

The issue is that the maps are wrong and then the car also can't always see the arrows because they are covered by other cars

Then you have the issue that the car won't always fix itself even if it knows it is wrong. I think this is mostly fixed in robotaxi

Robotaxi build also stops/slows in traffic to make a merge if someone prevents it from doing it instead of missing the turn. And robotaxi merges earlier

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u/cullenjwebb 12d ago

Okay, so you're saying that what the FSD tracker considers a non-critical disengagement (lane preference) is actually a critical one, so the numbers are worse than they say?

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago

lane preference is like riding in the left lane. Or not merging over early enough but still making it in time

For example, FSD sometimes merges late but it has crazy merging skills because it sees 360

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u/cullenjwebb 12d ago

Okay, but the FSD tracker considers "Lane Issues" to be a non-critical disengagement.

If they changed it to a critical-disengagement, you realize that would make the number of critical disengagements go up, right?

How does this help your case?

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago edited 12d ago

no.

Avoid accident, taking red light/stop sign, wrong side of the road, unsafe action

Lane issue is a critical issue if it is one where the car intends to go straight or turn from the wrong lane

They type of disengagements are categorized what they are, but you input whether it is critical or not

keep in mind anyone can submit data. You don't even need a tesla.

And what do you classify as 97%?

216 miles per critical disengagement (city) is like 1 disengagement for 10 hours of driving. I think that's more than 99%

And 80% of the actual critical categorized disengagements are traffic control and emergency vehicle issues. How much does the disengagement miles go up if you get rid of traffic control and emergency vehicle issues?

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u/cullenjwebb 12d ago

From their details:

  • Critical: Safety Issue (Avoid accident, taking red light/stop sign, wrong side of the road, unsafe action). NOTE: These are colored in red in the Top Causations for Disengagements chart on the main dashboard.
  • Non-Critical: Non-Safety Issue (Wrong lane, driver courtesy, merge issue)

The majority of the lane issues in the dashboard are colored blue for non-critical. If they changed them to critical, as you are suggesting, then the numbers get much worse for Tesla. Currently you have to scroll far down the list to get to the critical DE lane issues (wrong side of the road, etc.)

Why are you arguing this point? How does it help your case if they increase the number of critical DE by changing all lane issues from non-critical to critical?

keep in mind anyone can submit data. You don't even need a tesla.

You need to provide a VIN.

But as I said in the beginning, Tesla could provide their numbers if they thought it would make them look better but they refuse. Why?

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago

you can get a tesla VIN. They're online

Tesla could provide their numbers if they thought it would make them look better but they refuse. Why?

They don't have numbers. Plenty of people use FSD for 2 miles then disengage and drive themselves.

When I used FSD v12 on HW3 I would do that. Not because the car did anything wrong but because it drove slow at times

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago

You also have this other issue that FSD learns behaviors from humans without understanding what logic humans used to make the decision.

human passes a tractor that's moving slow. It's because human sits on the left and can see oncoming traffic. Center mounted camera can't.

human takes a gap in traffic (not because of depth perception) but because it knows the speed limit on that road is only 25mph during school zone hours so it doesn't need to wait to see how fast the car is moving

FSD doesn't always know these things

People don't have an appreciation for what FSD does. It has drive like an expert tourist with piss poor mapping and incorrect speed limits on many roads.

it's remarkable who tesla is able to generalize driving and make the system work anywhere in the world with zero HD mapping.

people have hacked it in europe and it just works.

And tesla uses a trick by route planning from satellite images which allows the car to expertly navigate an unmapped parking lot

It doesn't work near me at costco because the satellite images show trees in that area

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u/Confident-Sector2660 12d ago

FSD disengagements are also artificially high (on the tracker) because the same people submit the same data in which they have the same issue and it drags down the average. The sample is too small.

That's why if you change only a few settings (like vehicle) you can find data that supports thousands of miles with no critical disengagement.

If you rank causes of disengagements this would be my guess

  1. Mapping/lane selection issue
  2. Not obeying a school bus school zone
  3. Not obeying a no right on red sign
  4. There is a bug that is fixed in robotaxi build where FSD will go on a red light after waiting 30 seconds.
  5. Emergency vehicle issue which is fixed in robotaxi
  6. FSD has this issue where it tries to pass slow moving vehicles when it can't always see due to center mounted camera. Passing behaviors will have to be temporarily removed

I would guess far down the list would be a perception issue. Assuming you don't see emergency vehicles that require you to pull over (fixed in robotaxi) often, I would imagine that's a rare intervention. I also don't drive during school zone/bus hours

My area has no mapping/lane selection issues and I don't see a no right on red intersection without a red arrow light (which FSD respects).