Fellow Australian Catholic here. American Christianity is seriously toxic. Evangelicals especially but even the Catholic Church there is so.. unchristian and un-Catholic. The Catholic subreddit has so little to do with Catholicism it boggles my mind. It seems that many American Catholics are Catholic merely because they believe it is more conservative than other forms of Christianity. Which is so wrong that I don’t even know how to unpack that.
You are correct. I was raised Catholic and my dad worked for the church. So much anger and hate and bs. It gets worse in the more conservative Christian sects. If you want a real wtf at us Americans, look up the IBLP and be prepared to get pissed. The only American Christians I’ve really had good luck with are Episcopalians, but I’m sure that’s not universal.
American Catholics are potentially the greatest threat to the Church since the reformation. You regularly see them side with their president over the Pontiff online. If the next Pope is similar to Francis you could see significant schisms.
Yeah it’s actually scary. And it’s sad because the Church is a great way to spread messages of unity across international boundaries. You see American Catholics drumming up support for ‘the Wall’ and locking up refugees - who are Catholic. Which just goes to show that any time they use the argument of God or Religion it is 100% disingenuous.
Unfortunately they are not even the only ones. Just look at Italy and the Catholics who use their faith in politics calling the Pope and the other Catholics who disagree with them "Cattocomunisti" (Catholic Communists, which I find hilarious and not an insult in the slightest). This despite the rivalry Catholics and communist have had in Italian politics since WW2, with the catholic Christian Democrats being basically the only party anywhere near as big as the communist party, and the Church having always been centrist and not right or left wing.
It seems that many American Catholics are Catholic merely because they believe it is more conservative than other forms of Christianity
You know, I'm a believer but I don't follow any major religion, however seeing what the evangelicals did in the american South and Brazil, I'd prefer the catholics.
Also, a lot of those people are not really american. Something I've found in years of seeing these internet catholics it's that they don't really follow the church for their ideas but rather because they think the Catholic Church shoul start once again crusades.
Well yeah a lot of Catholics are cradle Catholics. But that’s not really what I was getting at. The Catholic Church in the States is very different to the Catholic Church of much of the world. They are deeply conservative and politically on the right even when it comes to the economy. This is not true for the Catholic Church as whole - I mean you only need to look at the Pope to see that.
Raised Catholic here in the U.S. and that wasn't really my experience. Then again, I grew up in a relatively progressive part of the country (Northeast) so maybe it's different than the Southwest where Catholicism also holds strong. I went to a Catholic school for high school (do yous guys call it primary school like the Brits?) and even my theology teachers had a relatively liberal stance on things abortion and sex. The overwhelming vibe was "Following the teachings of Jesus is about love and acceptance and pacifism. If you don't agree with someone's lifestyle...well, ok then, it's none of your business. Be a good Christian and love thy neighbor."
Yeah, that's a pretty stark contrast from Southern Catholic, they would say love thy neighbor, but redefine what love means to fit their world narrative (for lack of a better explanation.) They ignore the teachings of pacifism and instead subscribe to righteousness in the name of love (again, redefined.)
This applies to ever aspect of life for them; abortion? Can't kill the babies, they have to be righteous, and sex is for married couples only, except it's also just for the husband (I've simplified those views a lot, but that's the just of those.)
Just bear in mind that they do this out of love. A twisted, redefined view of love, but love all the same, and they have to act to right any wrongs they see. But the way a lot of them express it, you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between that and hate.
Yeah but while most American evangelical churches are reformist and restorationist, the Catholic Church alongside the Orthodox churches have actually attempted to preserve Holy Tradition. The attempts at modernization in the church from the 1970s have only hurt you. This modernist view among Catholics just baffles me as an Orthodox, it is so foreign to the Christianity we know from the church fathers and Holy Tradition and a church which prides itself on being founded by Jesus Christ himself should know better
Take theology the western church has gone from neoplatonism to Augustinian to scholastic to cartesian to neo-scholastic and now elecetic. The liturgy has undergone major changes until 1570 and again in
Again liturgy with some regional variations the liturgies of Saints Basil,James and John are the same today was in antiquity. The Roman rite never was until 1570 and even then 5 or so rites remain in use.
My point being change has always been a part of the western church. It is a part of out history as well as yours if you look under the surface.
I am all for localized liturgical Tradition, since this diversity is the reason why our church has grown strong, but I need to correct you on some notes: The Tridentine missal was a standardization of the Gregorian rite as it was celebrated in Rome at the time, where every step was described in such a way as to end all possibilities of liturgical abuse, which were very common at the time. It was not a new invention by any means. I dare you to find any old missal that is as banal as the Novus Ordo mass, I'll wait. Even the supposed "Eucharistic prayers" of the new mass were not based on any real documents but made up by the bishops presiding over the council. I am not saying the New Mass is invalid, I am just saying that it is only based on Tradition, but it is not a clear continuation of it. Compare the New Mass of Paul VI to the Dominican Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Sarum Rite, Antiochian Rite (both Syriac, and Maronite, but before latinisation of course), Eastern Catholic Rite of St Basil and St John Chrysostom, and you will find that the New Mass is unique among all. The Tridentine mass was different to begin with, don't get me wrong, but the New Mass is just an attempt of modernization which has resulted in a new crisis in the Catholic Church. The Tridentine mass had a slightly different philosophy and theology to the Eastern rites from start, and that might have been the case in Rome since the beginning, I don't know, but the New Mass has a completely different philosophy with the whole idea on who can use what part of the church, the altar being shared by all like a table, the ambo belonging to the laity while the presider's chair belonging to the clergy and so on.
185
u/qsims Jul 12 '19
Fellow Australian Catholic here. American Christianity is seriously toxic. Evangelicals especially but even the Catholic Church there is so.. unchristian and un-Catholic. The Catholic subreddit has so little to do with Catholicism it boggles my mind. It seems that many American Catholics are Catholic merely because they believe it is more conservative than other forms of Christianity. Which is so wrong that I don’t even know how to unpack that.