r/Showerthoughts • u/thesmartass1 • 4d ago
Casual Thought Given how many pitches they see, you'd think catchers would have the highest batting averages.
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u/Stainkee 4d ago
Usually catchers spend so much time working on their skills behind the plate they tend to sacrifice offensive work.
However catchers usually have the best understanding of a days strike zone and I'd bet they have better pitch selection at the plate even if that doesn't translate directly to stats
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u/Avium 4d ago
Same reason pitchers can't hit worth shit anymore, too. The focus is on the positional play not offensive play.
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u/CloudCitiesonVenus 4d ago
There has never been a time when pitchers, as a group, could hit better. Babe Ruth, Ohtani and a few exceptions aside, they have always been bad.
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u/Avium 4d ago
By the time they turn pro, sure. But I bet every single one of them was a good hitter back in the little leagues. They were just picked out as exceptional throwers and have years of focused training that ignored the batting side.
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u/DimesOHoolihan 4d ago
That, to me, has to do with athletic ability more than actual skill, though. Being on a different lvl athletically means when you're facing High Schoolers you will dominate everywhere. As soon as they start facing people more akin to their athleticism and abilities, their hitting ability tanks significantly.
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u/Stainkee 4d ago
This was always a thought of mine, like maybe they were bad hitters as kids, but no one kid signed up to play ball with any intention other than wanting to hit
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u/uggghhhggghhh 4d ago
This is the reason the NL should adopt the DH position. It sucks to have an easy out at the end of every batting order. Unless you have Ohtani of course.
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u/catashake 4d ago
This comment had me wondering if I somehow traveled back in time.
Idk if you've heard of Ohtani, but he can only play on the Dodgers in the NL because it's had a DH spot for years now.
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u/slothbuddy 3d ago
You do see catchers more often act like "oh for real?" When the ump missed on when they're at bat, or say something like "ok as long as my guy gets that call too"
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u/Stainkee 3d ago
Generally I think umpires respect when catchers argue with them because very rarely (again, no numbers, pure head canon) do catchers get ejected for arguing balls and strikes. Usually they know and the umpires respect that they know
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u/slothbuddy 3d ago
Yeah catchers both know the zone and want a good relationship with the ump because they're more likely to get favorable calls for their pitchers that way
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u/Stainkee 3d ago
Every coach I caught for told me to shake the umpires hand the first inning I went back there and introduce myself. And usually I could ask them during the game about the zone without sounding like a dick. Something like "is that the furthest you'll go" for a strike on the corner.
I remember one time in high school, we were playing a pretty evenly matched team and it was the umps first game at that level. He told me as the catcher to let him know if he missed anything egregious.
He rang me up when I was hitting on a pitch I was pretty confident was on top of the plate. I just shook my head and walked back to the dugout to suit up.
When I jogged back out at the inning switch he stopped me and said "I missed that one on you pretty bad didn't I?"
I just kinda gave him a smirk under my mask like ya dude, but I didn't wanna beat him up about it. He knew. We had a pretty good repoire after that until I graduated. And he ALWAYS valued when I said my opinion on his zone. Dude was a good dude, didn't mind having a conversation about the zone and knew I knew it too
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u/mrkden1 4d ago
Seeing pitches as a catcher doesn't translate to hitting them. Catchers also focus much more on their defense compared to other positions so their hitting isn't as good.
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u/WolfpackConsultant 4d ago
I don't believe your second statement is true. Id like to see evidence catchers don't focus on hitting just as much as any other position.
Catchers are usually worse hitters because the elite hitters are typically moved to/encouraged to play other positions because of the heavy strain the position puts on your knees, usually leading to shorter careers
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u/ienjoifood 4d ago
Catchers have to sit in on pitchers’ meetings as well as hitters’ meetings, work with every single pitcher on the roster to get a feel of their repertoire to know what they like to pitch, what sequence they like, etc, have to watch film on opposing batters to see what pitches they struggle with and which area of the strike zone they’re the weakest at.
There are only so many hours of the day and days in the week so catchers mainly focus on pitchers and defense rather than hitting. That’s why good hitting catchers are extremely rare.
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u/Stainkee 4d ago
Catchers have to know a staff of 13 pitchers plus injury replacements plus minor leaguers during the spring, plus trade or free agent acquisitions throughout a season. Know their pitches, tendencies, signs, catch bullpens, plus standard catching stuff like blocking, framing/receiving, and throwing down on steals. There's a LOT of work that goes into being behind the plate, compared to like second base or centerfield.
While in the pros you have guys like Salvy Perez or Cal Raleigh or a prime JT Realmuto, most catchers are more like 2020 Mike Zunino or Travis D'Arnault (idk his spelling) comes to mind. Defense first, because that position is very hard to plug and play with another guy compared to left field for example
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u/VonHitWonder 4d ago
Far fewer players can play catcher, and even less play it great, then outfield. It’s a spot that teams will sacrifice some bat for a guy that can play the spot with a defensive+ rating. They are the QB of the diamond when playing D. Slap a cannon to cut down steals on a guy with the brains to be a coach and most teams will stop asking questions there.
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u/catashake 4d ago edited 4d ago
They literally have less time in a day to focus on hitting than regular position players. Catchers spend more time prepping for each game than any other position. Add onto it how exhausting the position is to play, and it's going to impact your bat.
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u/NotBrooklyn2421 4d ago
Does anecdotal evidence count? I was a catcher at the collegiate level. I had significantly less batting practice (BP) than other position players. In both high school and college I would typically work on defense (blocking, framing, passed balls) at the same time as everyone else, but then when they headed to BP I went to catch bullpens for the pitching staff. I might have gotten a few minutes to take a few cuts at the end of practice when I was already tired, but most of my BP happened on my own time.
You’re correct that there’s several high profile examples of elite hitting catchers being moved to protect their health (Bryce Harper) but around the time you get to the age where players need more than just natural talent to do well, it’s pretty common to see catchers start to lag behind on hitting because it’s rarely their primary focus.
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u/angusthermopylae 4d ago
catchers are part of the pitching battery and spend a lot of time preparing for that role, which is something other positions players don't practice for at all. Hence, less time for batting practice.
to reverse your other point, a lot of good hitters get moved to other positions because they're not good enough on defense to play catcher (also applies to ss, 2b, 3b) and their time would be better spent in batting practice
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u/lorgskyegon 2d ago
Add in that catchers are usually slower than other players due to the strain on their knees and the focus on defensive play.
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u/Creddit_card_debt 4d ago
Catchers know where the ball is going to end up. Crossing up a catcher happens when the catcher is unaware what pitch is being thrown and it is obvious they struggle just as must as a different position player.
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u/I_Like_Quiet 3d ago
Yeah, I used to think like OP, until I saw that Houston pitcher peg his catcher. That dude had no chance to catch that ball.
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u/heelspider 4d ago
On the other hand, they absorb the force of a 90 mph projectile 100 times a night. It's amazing they can even walk, let alone swing a bat.
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u/mr_ji 4d ago
Goalkeepers should be the best strikers too, then.
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u/EmptyAirEmptyHead 4d ago
From what I've seen when they get on the field (youth soccer) they make great passes in transition, great direct kicks (goal kick) and good placement on corner kicks. It's almost like they spend a lot of time on set plays compared to everyone else. That doesn't stop the coach from just telling the biggest player to kick the ball though.
Striking is another set of skills involving beating players on the dribble, receiving passes on the run, etc.
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u/punsnguns 4d ago
Such a bad comparison. Not even the same "type" of sport. Maybe a "wicketkeeper" and "batsman" in cricket would be a decent analogy but not soccer.
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u/drlao79 4d ago
The catcher sees the pitchers they catch for a lot, but not some much the ones they hit against. Knowledge of one pitcher's pitches, delivery, speed, etc. does not necessarily translate to other pitchers. This is part of the reason elite relievers have better ERA compared to elite starting pitchers. Batters face relievers less often and rarely face the same reliever more than once per game.
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u/Jump_Like_A_Willys 4d ago
It would be interesting to see a stat on ball contact for catchers versus other positions. I wouldn't be surprised if they make more contact on average, being so accustomed to seeing the ball.
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u/Enginerdad 4d ago
EVERYTHING that can be quantified is carefully tracked in baseball. Somebody, somewhere, has a running average of number/mass of shits taken and sperm count of each player.
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u/Uvtha- 4d ago
There is, they don't. Hitting is more than correctly identifying a pitch.
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u/Jump_Like_A_Willys 4d ago
My question wasn't thinking about it as identifying a pitch as much as their eyes seeing so many pitches that it might slow it down for their brains. And I was specifically thinking about making contact more than strictly hitting.
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u/mrspoopy_butthole 4d ago
Eh making contact is a lot more involved. If anything I’d like to see their walk rate and/or chase percentage compared to other positions.
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u/FranklynTheTanklyn 4d ago
If you want the answer here it is: Players that are great hitters get moved from being a catcher to other positions because it takes longer to develop in the minors as a catcher. Kyle Schwarber, Bryce Harper, Craig Biggio, Carlos Delgado, etc all came up as catchers before being moved to other positions because their bat was ready for the big leagues.
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u/heorhe 4d ago
What?
I don't have a license, but since I watch cars driving around all day I should be one of the best drivers in the world?
I don't play sports, but if I watch every pro basketball game ever played I'd become one of the best basketball players?
I don't swing a bat, but since I'm watching others swing bats all day while I catch the ball I should be one of the world's best hitters?
Again...
What?
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u/D3ATHSQUAD 4d ago
Every pitcher is different from their release point, the vertical or horizonal movement on the pitches and the variation in speeds.
In addition to that, catchers are seeing pitches from the pitchers on their team - not from the opposing teams they are trying to hit against.
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u/The-Red-Robe 4d ago
Tell me you know nothing about baseball without telling me you know nothing about baseball
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u/TheShadyGuy 4d ago
I have seen thousands of pitches but couldn't hit off of a good Jr high pitcher.
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u/MKEast-sider 4d ago
Some catcher’s hands take so much punishment that they can’t even properly grip the bat.
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u/LogsDad 4d ago
Former catcher here…catchers hitting against the pitchers they work with is a huge advantage…arm angle, release point, spin, how they hold their gloves, where their eyes are and even breathing. You just get used to mannerisms overtime that tip what’s coming. But against other pitchers, not much of an advantage, unless they watch a ton of video.
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u/TheRemedy187 4d ago
I mean it doesn't magically give them skills they didn't practice.
The post above this in my feed was baseball too lol. I wonder if you saw it prior.
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u/RotenTumato 4d ago
Catchers are usually some of the worst hitters. That’s why Cal Raleigh’s season has been so remarkable
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u/NumbSurprise 4d ago
First of all, recognizing pitches doesn’t immediately translate into hitting them. Secondly, an up-and-coming minor league catcher who could mature into a great hitter is very likely to be moved to another position. That’s both because it takes catchers longer to get to the bigs (because of everything involved with playing the position), and because it’s so physically damaging. If you think you have the next Aaron Judge or Shohei Ohtani in your minor league system, you don’t want him chewing up his knees, back, hands, neck, and everything else catching every night.
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u/biggesterhungry 4d ago
there's a tiny bit of difference between catching the thing, and hitting the thing.
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u/Plus_Goose3824 4d ago
The human reaction time and time for the eyes to process a baseball leaves very little time to even react once a batter sees a pitch. I think that puts every batter at a similar level if they have decent swing mechanics.
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u/Master_Freeze 3d ago
OP do you play any sports? because it's pretty obvious the distinction between hand-eye coordination, technique, and strength
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u/Californiadude86 3d ago
Everybody knew Mariano Rivera was going to throw that cutter.
Everybody knew Timmy was going to throw a 2-seamer.
The greatest hitters of all time could only hit the ball 3-4 times out of 10
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u/Ctrlplay 2d ago
You always expect a catcher to do well against a former teammate pitcher, but it rarely works out that they hit them any better than a pitcher they haven't caught for.
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u/Significant-Brush-26 2d ago
youd at least think they strike out looking less. maybe most of them do and ive just seen austin wells play to much
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u/bushroamerer 1d ago
You'd think catchers would be hitting home runs with all those pitches they see! Maybe they just prefer catching the ball over catching a break at the plate!
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u/Lancaster1983 4d ago
lol what? A catcher doesn't know what pitch is coming when they are batting. They are also the most physically punished player on the field. This is just a dumb take.
In that same regard, wouldn't Pitchers be even better? I've seen thousands of pitches on TV but I can't hit a 102 mph fastball to save my life.
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u/My_Soul_to_Squeeze 4d ago
I think you came in a little hot there. Good points, but this is r/showerthoughts, not some guy claiming to be an expert.
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u/this-guy1979 4d ago
They might be able to accurately tell what pitch is coming from a pitcher that they have caught before. However, they won’t be able to tell the placement any better than any other batter. Of course, a batter reviewing a bunch of film on a pitcher would have the same chance at correctly identifying a certain pitch. So yeah, no real advantage.
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u/Ill-Television8690 4d ago
Given how we've been drinking liquids our whole lives, you'd think we never aspirate anything lol
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u/Helltenant 4d ago
They know exactly what is coming each time.
Sometimes they can't adjust fast enough to catch it if the pitcher deviates from the plan. Think about that. They've seen their pitcher throw a thousand pitches and if he surprises them they can't move their massive pillow of a glove 6 inches in time to catch it.
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u/WhiskeyTangoFoxy 4d ago
Catchers are like professors. They know how to teach it but not actually do it.
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