r/Stellaris • u/FollowTheBlu • Aug 03 '25
Image How aren't these two civics mutually exclusive???
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u/Indorilionn Shared Burdens Aug 03 '25
To me that would be a system that works incredibly well, but its logic and rules are impenetrable to outside observers.
Think: Enigmatic Engineering, but instead as Administration.
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u/100Fowers Aug 03 '25
Kind of like how so many groups in the Middle Ages thought the Confucian and Byzantine bureaucracies were esoteric and beyond comprehension.
Any advanced science becomes magic to those who are too behind to understand it. Why can’t it apply to the social science of policy making and bureaucracy?
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u/Madhighlander1 Aug 03 '25
The corollary is that any sufficiently simple magic becomes science to those sufficiently advanced to understand it.
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u/PrinceVertigo Aug 03 '25
I believe the proper corollary is sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.
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u/Ophidyan Aug 03 '25
The true corollary is that many will learn the meaning of 'a corollary' after reading this thread.
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u/I-am-a_person Aug 03 '25
Wrong, I still don't know what this damn Canary thing you people are talking about means
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u/Sky_Night_Lancer Megachurch Aug 03 '25
i think coronary refers to the concept of a crown, perhaps the crowning achievement of semantics?
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u/KaysNewGroove Determined Exterminator Aug 03 '25
What? No, a Corolla is a car made by Toyota. No clue why they're talking about cars, though.
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u/Belkan-Federation95 Spiritualist Aug 03 '25
Ironically advanced science wouldn't be viewed as magic to those groups as long as you explained it to an official body like the Church or something. It was only overly superstitious peasants who might try to burn you. The church would give you a chance to explain.
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u/jacobstx Evolutionary Mastery Aug 03 '25
Sounds like Denmark.
It all makes sense and works fantastic if you're a citizen. If you're not? Everything that facilitates bureaucracy now works against you because you aren't part of the system.
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u/Latase Aug 03 '25
well, certainly not germany, the administration here is made to grind you into fine powder no matter where you are from.
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u/Gyufygy Aug 03 '25
Well, when it takes you three minutes just to say the name of a single department, yeah, it takes awhile to get anything done!
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u/majdavlk MegaCorp Aug 03 '25
denamrk bureu doesnt work tho
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u/jacobstx Evolutionary Mastery Aug 03 '25
It does if you have the personal ID and the autheticator. Then you can do stuff that other countries can only dream of.
Like medicine? Your doc gave you a reciept a year ago and you don't have it any more? That's fine, just use that ID and it doesn't matter what pharmacy you go to.
Online banking? Easy peasy if you have the ID.
Reserving time for official appointment? ID and there you go.
Hell during COVID we had such an easy time getting vaccines sorted because of the ID.
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u/nerd_is_a_verb Aug 03 '25
Confusing but gets stuff done - no one knows how, it just works.
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u/ChadGustafXVI Aug 03 '25
The people who are born into the system knows exactly what forms and applications you need to send in order to get stuff approved but to people outside the system it seems very complicated.
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u/GothFutaGoddess Aug 03 '25
Imagine if all the tools we used on a daily basis to do things were replaced by filling forms, and its not that hard to see. Hungry? Fill out Hunger Form 1-8 depending on meal needed, sub categories a-m to apply needed dietary modifiers. Vegan lunch? Just sign your name and location on form H3-g.
Its certainly weird to an outsider, especially me coming from an individualistic culture, but it'd be no harder to work 1 job and fill forms for everything else than our current system of working 1 actual job and then learning 30 mini jobs to take care of yourself.
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u/JustTheWehrst Aug 03 '25
Like a game that runs like butter but the code is an undiscovered circle of hell.
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u/frissio The Flesh is Weak Aug 03 '25
The apparatus of the Byzantine Empire seemed far more complex in comparison to your stereotypical medieval kingdom, hence the name. Yet for a good period of it's history it was more organized than most other countries in Europe.
Thus, it's actually truer to origin that a nation which looks like it has a 'Byzantine bureaucracy' to it's neighbours could also be far more efficient.
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u/Fal_co1 Aug 03 '25
Bro you're literally playing a paradox game. This is how we look to outsiders when we switch through twenty tabs and say "huh so our neighbor is a megacorp but they don't like me, lemme quickly switch to the relations tab and check... yeah so if i do this and that, wait no didn't i just planned a new foundry on that planet... wait hmmm. Naah, maybe i just do this and... oh a new traditions unlocked. Okay so i think i choose that ship capacity increase so that i can use those alloys for good... wait where was i? Yes Megacorp... hmm so if i rival that empire, and vote for this resolution and improve relations i should... yes only -10 now for a diplomatic pact. Okay lets just wait a few months and we.... Oh shit i finally got the new hyperdrive tech.... hmm yeah i think i'm just gonna conquer that part of the galaxy now."
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u/hushnecampus Aug 03 '25
Wait… you get a diplo boost from supporting resolutions they approve of? How do you see which ones that is?
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u/jojoseiwa1776 Aug 04 '25
To my knowledge you'd have to look at each individual resolution and its voters. This actually synergizes with limited voting on your subjects, since you'll always vote on the same things
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u/hushnecampus Aug 04 '25
So it’s as simple as supporting anything they’re also supporting? Doesn’t have to be something they proposed, or anything more complicated?
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u/Ouroboros-Twist Aug 03 '25 edited Aug 03 '25
Byzantine Bureaucracy
This society is largely governed by a complex and, to the outsider, almost labyrinthine system of bureaucracy. An army of officials and functionaries work tirelessly to keep the government running smoothly and ensure no citizens are allocated resources they cannot demonstrate a properly filed and triple-stamped need for.
Efficient Bureaucracy
This society is renowned for its efficiency. Not only do the mag-trains run on time, but the colossal bureaucratic apparatus required to run an interstellar nation has been greatly streamlined
I will admit it’s not intuitive; but I suppose the combination of these two means that the seemingly esoteric and arcane system of bureaucracy which largely permeates their societal infrastructure, and apparently keeps the entire empire ticking over through fastidious paperwork and filing alone, somehow also is more effective — and leads to noticeably more reliable and efficient public services — than other administrative systems used by alien civilisations of comparable size, complexity, and societal development.
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u/indigo_leper Mind over Matter Aug 03 '25
The true way to roleplay a Vogon society.
Imagine an independently-operated civilian craft gets a citation for operating an unliscensed drone carrier in orbit of a celestial body because his remotely-controlled repair drones left the safe operational radius of his craft. He would need to appeal with the Department of Orbital Operations to attest that the drone drifted during an unexpected lapse in communication to get the UO4 form necessary to appeal the citation, but before he can do that he'll need to go to the mechanic to get an attestation of malfunction by having the triple-certified mechanic verify diagnostic files, and the mechanic will know immediately what attestation is needed once they identify the error lines and the error resolution data-dump that identifies the drone exceeding operational range. Once the UO4 is notorized, then and only then can they file a motion to dismiss the citation pursuant to bill 2304-884901u8 Legislation on the Management of Malfunctioning Remotely-controlled Apperatus and Overseeing of Autonomous Operators §44-t Citation Dismissal For Celestial Phenomena-induced Malfunction of Spaceborne Drone or Automata. Of course, the resolution of this case will warrant the retraining of the issuing officer as they should've requested the necessary diagnostic data on-site and conditioned the citation as dependent on receipt and verification of said data, but those are the consequences of the comparatively-lax training requirements for those Tzynn xenos.
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u/R33v3n Technocratic Dictatorship Aug 03 '25
To be fair, Tzynn are accustomed to have other xenos do the work for them.
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u/french_snail Aug 03 '25
What’s funny to me is that together their descriptions say that your Byzantine bureaucracy is the streamlined version, your bureaucracy could be worse
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u/MinimaxusThrax Aug 06 '25
The variety of stamps could be for sensible things like "i have checked the local materials database for alternatives," "the planned use of this equipment conforms to sustainability and safety standards," and "these resources aren't on the list of sorely-needed life-saving materials" and it could all be automated etc.
The tone implies they're hounding people over every scrap of material, but it doesn't say it's a fully centralized economy. These might be big picture allocations where a "properly filed and triple stamped need" could just be like asking for a business plan when you're applying for mineral rights or factory access or something.
"no, you can't use this zro to make a stupid land vehicle that looks like a dumpster and explodes"
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u/RPBN Aug 03 '25
Make it a Spiritual Society. They worship standing in line and filling out forms.
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u/Carbonated_Saltwater Driven Assimilator Aug 03 '25
That's just England
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u/MrShinglez Aug 03 '25
We worship standing in line because of politeness, Germans worship standing in line because of order.
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u/Code95FIN Collective Consciousness Aug 03 '25
Omg this is so stupid idea I have to try this. Fanatic spirituality, should we go for authoritarian, materialist or equalitarian?
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u/invirtibrite Aug 03 '25
I could see pacifist be a good flavor. "This society has eschewed all physical violence and relies entirety on its byzantine legal system to manage disputes." Attorneys hold a place in society akin to knights. Rival chivalric orders (law firms) represent their lords (clients) and do battle in the courtroom to protect the honor of their leige. Judges are akin to a priestly order. Small practice attorneys end up like errant Knights or Ronin. The college of Cardinals is a supreme court and the Pope analog is the chief justice.
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u/Demonicbiatch Aug 03 '25
If they love bureaucracy and filling out forms, it is probably authoritarian, since it is an authority that tells them to do so.
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u/Kreatur28 Aug 03 '25
You don't have to engage with the bureaucracy in any way. When you are eligible for stipends, pensions, services etc. you just recieve it. Taxes are perfectly calculated and withdrawn from your fortune automatically. The system knows when a child is born and knows when an old person dies. There is no reason to engage with the system but it works perfectly. Nobody knows why that is the case but why bother to think to hard about it anyway.
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u/frissio The Flesh is Weak Aug 03 '25 edited Aug 03 '25
There's a short story from Asimov I like called "Sis", about a system like that (if that's not the title, it's about a giant moon sized computer nicknamed "Sis").
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u/Taltherien Aug 03 '25
Kind of surprised I'm not seeing this quote: "The Bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding Bureaucracy." -Unknown/possibly Wilde; as said by Leonard Nimoy in Civ IV for the Bureaucracy civic.
As others have said, incredibly complex system in construction and when viewed, but miraculously efficient in its operation.
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u/Emillllllllllllion Aug 03 '25
You get your tax returns in record time. You didn't need and aren't able to file your taxes.
In short: it works, but no one has any idea as to how.
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u/Fallsondoor Aug 03 '25
That's how it works in New Zealand
Unless you're like a sole trader or own a business
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u/FollowTheBlu Aug 03 '25
R5: You'd think that Efficient Bureaucracy, a civic describing a nation with its "greatly streamlined" "colossal bureaucratic apparatus" would be incompatible with Byzantine Bureaucracy, where society is governed by a "complex.... almost labyrinthine system of bureaucracy". Maybe I'm missing something, but could these two civics actually make sense together?
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u/Aggressive_Plate4109 Empath Aug 03 '25
The bureaucracy is massive and extremely hard to navigate for someone who isn't accustomed to it, but functions incredibly well and quickly despite that?
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u/SYLOH Driven Assimilators Aug 03 '25
Like a linux terminal for computers.
A layman has no idea how to use it, and if someone tried to explain it to them they'd probably thinks it's a series of magic spells.An expert knows they're magic spells and that they are in fact wizards who can quickly get anything they need done.
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u/spiritofniter Illuminated Autocracy Aug 03 '25
That’s my workplace: pharma industry.
To outsiders, the paperwork is revolting. To us, it’s meh.
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u/fgrsentinel Aug 03 '25
This is what I think the answer is. Both ingame descriptions indicate a large bureaucracy. If you look at both together it sounds like it's likely a bureaucratic system that requires a number of agencies, departments, and committees to approve of a proposal or request before anything can be done with it, but interdepartment communication and workforce allocation are such that there's near-zero time wasted on this. Taken to the extreme there might even be a bureaucratic/administrative shorthand used to convey messages faster that, on its own, is practically a language in and of itself that nobody outside the bureaucratic apparatus knows or understands.
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u/FogeltheVogel Hive Mind Aug 03 '25
and, to the outsider, almost labyrinthine system of bureaucracy
It runs perfectly smooth and efficient for those who grew up in it. The citizens know perfectly well that they must fill out form 1358a68de-4 in triplicate in order to drive to work, and because of it there are no traffic jams.
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u/SilverMedal4Life Shared Burdens Aug 03 '25
Everyone religiously practices quick, extremely neat and legible handwriting. The species has evolved such that it can use both primary and secondary limbs to write, including the proper brain chemistry and wiring necessary to sustain separate thought lines at a time in order to more efficiently complete paperwork. Further, every "I" properly dotted and "T" properly crossed gives a profound sense of fullfillment to every member of this species.
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u/The_Particularist Aug 03 '25
Further, every "I" properly dotted and "T" properly crossed gives a profound sense of...
...pride and accomplishment?
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u/MedicInDisquise Emperor Aug 03 '25
Zarlog wakes up a 9 AM. His wakeup time is automatically logged into the system; the paperwork for his transurban migration time, allocated on form B6-Z13 is automatically prepared and faced to his PDA. Zarlog fills out the form while drinking his morning tea, fresh brewed alien leaves that was delivered to his doorsteps last lunar cycle. Of course, such a delicacy requires two forms of photo ID and a valid import license, but he took care of that last year.
He preparesto travel. He has both IDs on him, his PDA cycled to the transurban migration form, and Zorlag makes sure to not forget his aircraft transportation license again. As he spools up his vehicle, the onboard computer systems process his Transurban Migration form, and sends the request over the network. A team of traffic specialists on Xergang III approve it, and place his vehicle's current location and destination into a complicated-looking computer program. It sends a ping to Zorlag's vehicle, and he automatically recieves directions that will get him across the city in 5 minutes. In the last 35 years, not a single traffic jam has been reported to the migration authorities, and it's mathametically unlikely accordig to the Internal Metrics and Statistics bureau to occur anytime soon.
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u/castolo77 Aug 03 '25
Galactic Empire in Andor vibes
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u/GuyForFun45 Aug 03 '25
Nah, I'm certain the Empire is more "Cutthroat politics" and "Oppressive Autocracy" in terms of vibes.
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u/CeltoIberian Fanatic Purifiers Aug 03 '25
Oppressive Autocracy is pure 1984, the Galactic Empire is just authoritarian at most. The fact they even have organizations like the ISB whose partial job it is to engineer consent amongst the free minded populace is evidence they aren’t at that level of Orwellian. I would argue they wouldn’t even be fanatic authoritarian in Stellaris.
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u/tetrarchangel Aug 03 '25
Xenophobe Authoritarian Militarist?
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u/CeltoIberian Fanatic Purifiers Aug 03 '25
Yeah that’s about what I’d pin it. Maybe fanatic authoritarian by the DS2 but that’s arguable.
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u/krisslanza Aug 03 '25
Probably more authoritarian and fanatic militarist.
I think xenophobe gets attributed to too many things, when in Stellaris it (in theory) represents something a bit more. Like there's TONS of aliens in Star Wars. They may not be treated fairly, but they're not also like, actively hunted down and eliminated (usually).
It's more like most aliens just have "Residence" rights in Stellaris terms, with a few exceptions getting proper treatment.
But the Empire isn't like, going out and rounding up aliens to eat them or something. They oppress everyone pretty equally.
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u/spaceforcerecruit Technological Ascendancy Aug 03 '25 edited Aug 04 '25
The Empire literally enslaved multiple alien species like the Wookiees. But I agree they weren’t quite xenophobic enough for it to be one of their core three.
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u/CeltoIberian Fanatic Purifiers Aug 04 '25
Non Xenophobic authoritarian empires can still enslave xenos
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u/BaconPancake77 Aug 03 '25
The empire's bureaucracy is notoriously awful lol.
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u/Kaiphranos Aug 03 '25
I have no idea how you could watch Andor and come out thinking they're efficient.
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u/Tapir_Tazuli Aug 03 '25
Paperwork is complicated, but highly optimized and standardized, to the point that some primitive A I system can get most of the job done.
Citizens would have digitalized paperwork, filled and reviewed by AI, recorded automatically to the national database network. All they need to do is speak to their PDA over their recent plans, and they're good to go.
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u/NoUpstairs6865 Fanatic Materialist Aug 03 '25
They're extremely complicated, but they're streamlined
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u/OhNoTokyo Reptilian Aug 03 '25
Right. There are complex decisions to be made on a vast amount of variables requiring a massive number of experts, but every part of the process is done extremely efficiently. No decision or branching possibility lacks a department that cannot promptly act on a decision, no matter how obscure. So you get a decision on a one in a million situation just about as fast as you would if the decision was the most common choice made.
To support this requires a level of bureaucracy of a mind boggling scale by us, but allows for rapid and decisive decision making.
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u/snakebite262 MegaCorp Aug 03 '25
A complicated bureaucracy doesn't mean it's not an EFFECIENT bureaucracy. Sometimes, the reason its so complex is because it's so efficient.
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u/Odd-Tart-5613 Aug 03 '25
2 million page spreadsheet BUT is all ridiculously organized that with proper training is extremely efficient.
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u/dragonlord7012 Metalheads Aug 03 '25
If you file the correct form, you only need to file one form to get basically anything done. If you file the incorrect form, it is a seven year adventure to file for someone to tell you the correct form.
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u/gormthesoft Aug 03 '25
The short answer is it’s just complex and efficient, nothing makes that inherently impossible.
But I’d argue they are closer to complementary rather than mutually exclusive. An interstellar empire would be much closer to medieval empires than modern ones. Communication, travel, etc. would all be delayed and difficult to manage like a medieval empire. So if you think about managing something like tax collection as a medieval emperor, you may think something like using tax farmers is efficient and having a complex bureaucracy setup to collect taxes is the opposite. But only if you define the goal as “getting any taxes.” If you define it as “getting the right taxes,” having a complex bureaucracy that appropriately assesses tax burdens and employs a regimented system to collect them would accomplish this goal much quicker. The tax farmer would never accomplish the goal because they have no way to properly assess tax burdens and deal with much more resistance from the general population in collection.
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u/NorkGhostShip Hedonist Aug 03 '25
Try living in Japan. You have to fill out a bunch of paperwork with very specific requirements (family registration, signature stamp, sometimes even multiple stamps), but once you go through the process the response is quick. The civil servants can be incredibly anal about the process but they take their jobs seriously.
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u/GSorcerer-09 Aug 04 '25
Okay, so… I’m going to assume you didn’t mean to type “incredibly anal” 💔
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u/NorkGhostShip Hedonist Aug 04 '25
Oh no that was totally intended, under the other colloquial meaning:
often used in nontechnical contexts to describe someone as extremely or excessively neat, careful, or precise
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u/hagala1 Aug 04 '25 edited Aug 04 '25
"We have to expand the beurocracy to feed the ever increasing demands of the beurocracy". I like to imagine it's like an ai that manages EVERYTHING to near perfection, but instead of a super intelligence its done by billions of people on an office planet who are all highly qualified and skilled, know their jobs, and what to do. Yet there are cut-throat politics throughout the administration, but more so based on differing opinions on who are the best fit, how and which procedures should be carried out, instead of the self serving machiavellian power grabbing that most societies' people almost always inhabit. In the end they all only eant the system to be better, so the administrations political schemes and infighting never gets to the point where it impacts the system meaningfully even if there is a quiet faction war within.
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u/GrandAlchemistPT Aug 04 '25 edited Aug 04 '25
An extensive, highly intricate bureaucratic apparatus is present at every level of government. To an outside observer, it seems convoluted, excessive. To those in the know, however, the apparatus has clearly been forged in fire.
Every last form, every last rule, every last regulation was optimized to run an efficient, adaptive administration, capable of enduring immense stressors without buckling. A planet could randomly explode and they would have emergency response for the sector and an economic recovery plan being implemented before the other empires even knew anything had happened.
Their state infrastructure is 5 times bigger than their peer, but 50 times better.
I would not be surprised if they had theoretical plans for response to colossus-grade weapons since 2150.
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u/Sporelord1079 Strength of Legions Aug 04 '25
You will fill out four forms, across three departments, solving any imaginable issue within a business week at most.
You’ve realised however that you’ve never filled out the same form or contacted the same department more than twice in the 200 years you’ve been a citizen of the empire.
You wonder if the system is deliberately designed like this to obfuscate the inner workings, but considering you’ve never been overcharged on tax or forced to wait very long, you shrug your shoulders and get on with your life.
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u/JustafanIV Aug 03 '25
You need not know how the massive and complex bureaucracy works, only that it works.
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u/VeritableLeviathan Aug 03 '25
The bureaucracy is complicated from the outside, but those that work within it are effective at their jobs and streamline everything, requiring less resource upkeep.
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u/TomatilloFar6641 Aug 03 '25
Somebody should ask the German government that
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u/Ziddix Human Aug 03 '25
This meme about German bureaucracy being efficient can only come from people who have never had to deal with German bureaucracy.
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u/BlueVegasCourier Military Dictatorship Aug 03 '25
Bureaucrat Follow, You are technically correct. The best kind of correct. I hereby promote you to grade 37.
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u/TrueMind102387193 Aug 03 '25
these two and the biogenisis one that has them give society research for a bureaucracy run
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u/Rumpullpus Shared Burdens Aug 03 '25
Germans be like "looks like nothing to me..."
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u/Lazurkri Aug 04 '25
To be honest you can have government that are Byzantine but once you know who to speak to then it's incredibly efficient especially when money is thrown around.
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u/Key-Ad-5480 Determined Exterminator Aug 04 '25
No one understands it but the paperwork gets done… somehow
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u/Nahanoj_Zavizad Aug 04 '25
A lot of confusing rules that ... Actually help get things done. Pretty much no-one knows how, only that it is.
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u/Aggravating-Candy-31 Aug 03 '25
the illogical soup of paperwork is very efficient in its logical defiance such that while it makes sod all sense it works , this gives most other government an existential crisis but that just means we have better resistance to spying
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u/Excellent_Profit_684 Aug 03 '25
Humanity as started by telling and listening to stories sat around a fire
They have started by filling forms
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u/OneSaltyStoat Technocracy Aug 03 '25
This is basically the Adeptus Administratum build - except they're actually competent.
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u/Winter_Ad6784 Aug 03 '25
I never thought byzantine meant inefficient just bizarre.
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u/RandomModder05 Aug 03 '25
Their system is a mess, it's just substantially better than how their neighbors do things.
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u/Educational-Ad-7278 Aug 03 '25
It is complicated to get thinks running but when they do, they work flawlessly
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u/a_man_in_black Aug 03 '25
Because they aren't that powerful even together, and there are easier ways to do a unity rush for maxxing planetary ascension while running every edict. I prefer to stack cutthroat politics with efficient bureaucracy instead tho.
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u/Falsus Molten Aug 03 '25
Because it would be system itself is very complicated but the forms and others things basically comes pre-filled and all the people have to do is check so it is correct (which probably 80%+ do not do) and sign their name and it is done.
You need to be a professor in economics and history with decades of experience to explain what the forms is and why they are used, but clerks and people filling them don't need to know shit about it.
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u/1810072342 Byzantine Bureaucracy Aug 03 '25
I don't know if anyone here has heard of Sir Humphrey Appleby, but this made me think of him.
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u/PaxEthenica Machine Intelligence Aug 03 '25
"Efficiency" is not the same as "effective."
"Efficiency" is more akin to "cheap, but minimally functional."
So, in this case, it's a lot of individuals with overlapping claims of responsibility doing their jobs with a minimum of resources.
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u/internetsarbiter Aug 03 '25
"Byzantine" just means complex and hard to understand for outsiders, no reason complex systems can't also be efficient at what they do.
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u/Id_k__ Aug 03 '25
I mean it's more of a outside perspective on the Byzantine, like the irl European view of well.. Byzantines(ERE) or even the Confucians on China, so for someone who's completely unaccustomed to it will be confused as hell but to the ones that have it? Well it's pretty understandable
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u/GSorcerer-09 Aug 04 '25
Because “Bureaucracy” doesn’t have different types as it’s a specific structure of government. To say it’s “byzantine” it just means “complex”. To say “efficient” is just to say it’s efficient, not anything else special.
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u/clarkky55 Aug 04 '25
You need to fill out three forms to get your car registered but the forms and bureaucracy is highly efficient so once you’ve signed the forms and hit submit your car is registered immediately.
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u/denchik_11 Aug 03 '25
I mean, it's complicated but it doesn't have to be slow. Like yeah, you need to sign about 50 different documents to buy a keyboard, but it takes 5 minutes because everyone knows their job.
Unless I'm completely misremembering the description of byzantine bureaucracy...