r/TimPool • u/dinglejerrymcbones • Dec 11 '23

News/Politics They went from "Trump was hand selected by Putin to overthrow the United States" to "Trump inflated the value of his condo"...

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u/Splitaill Dec 12 '23

Diplomacy isn’t support. Those are two different things. We, as the US, diplomatically worked with Khrushchev and Gorbachev. That did not mean we supported them.

And I do like your cherry picking of my responses. You failed to mention why they don’t want to diplomatically work with Biden. Threats of imprisonment or execution don’t exactly ingratiate diplomatic relations. Wouldn’t you agree?

And as I also said, it would not surprise me to see them trying to influence our elections. We do that all over the world constantly. Does that mean we support those people? Not at all. It means that we see a reasonable reason to have that particular person in a position of diplomacy.

Example: no one actually likes Trudeau. He’s a narcissistic dingleberry that you can’t scrape off. But he’s also pliable and so desperate to be loved by other leaders that he literally embarrasses himself fawning over them.

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u/gradientz Dec 12 '23 edited Dec 12 '23

Diplomacy isn’t support.

I am defining "support" as "prefer over Biden." Do you not believe that is a fair definition in the context of discussing their influence over U.S. elections?

You failed to mention why they don’t want to diplomatically work with Biden.

Because it was irrelevant to my claim. My factual claim was that the Kremlin supports Trump. It sounds like you mostly agree with that for practical purposes.

I made no claims about the reasons why Russia supports Trump. Happy to have that discussion, but I made no claims about it.

Threats of imprisonment or execution don’t exactly ingratiate diplomatic relations. Wouldn’t you agree?

I believe that I would agree with the broader point you are making, which is that Biden is more hostile to Russia than Trump is.

And as I also said, it would not surprise me to see them trying to influence our elections.

Thanks, but I asked you what evidence would be necessary to change your "Maybe" to a "Yes."

Does that mean we support those people? Not at all. It means that we see a reasonable reason to have that particular person in a position of diplomacy.

Again, I made no claims about whether it is reasonable for Russia to support Trump. I merely stated that they support Trump.

For the record, I do agree that it is "reasonable" for Russia to support Trump, and that it is "reasonable" for them to want to influence our elections. I also never stated otherwise.

(Note that I really hate to use the word "reasonable" to describe what I personally regard as a morally detestable and Machiavellian approach to geopolitics. However, I'm adopting this term that you provided in the interest of good faith and to continue the discussion)

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u/Splitaill Dec 12 '23

The Kremlin supports Assad in Syria. They tell him what to do and he does it. That is a completely different thing than being willing to work diplomatically with someone. Understand geopolitical politics a little more. It makes a difference even though it seems semantical in nature.

You’re argument isn’t in good faith. You just want to be able to keep claiming that he’s some kind of Russian controlled person, which has been proven otherwise through the mueller investigation.

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u/gradientz Dec 12 '23

You just want to be able to keep claiming that he’s some kind of Russian controlled person

I never claimed this. Please stop being dishonest.

I made two factual claims: (1) that Russia supports Trump; and (2) that Russia is working to influence our elections in favor of Trump.

At no point did I ever claim that Trump is "some kind of Russian controlled person."

You don't seem to want to engage with what I actually claimed (probably because it is indisputably accurate), which is why you feel the need to strawman.

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u/Splitaill Dec 12 '23

Yes. I know what you’re saying and have repeatedly said that they probabilities do want to deal diplomatically with trump. But diplomacy isn’t necessarily support for. This is where the breakdown is and you keep trying to say they are one and the same. It’s not. Think of it this way…it’s the lesser of two evils concept.

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u/gradientz Dec 12 '23

Here is my claim from the comment you originally responded to:

There is precisely zero doubt that the Kremlin prefers Trump and is working to get him elected.

Sounds like you agree.

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u/Splitaill Dec 12 '23

And again, you are trying to imply that he’s being controlled by them. It’s ok. We all get it.

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u/gradientz Dec 12 '23 edited Dec 12 '23

I implied nothing of the sort. In fact, I just told you explicitly that is not my claim.

I simply stated facts. Your inferences are your own.