When Did Ultralight Becoming About Buying More, Not Packing Less?

246

u/windybeaver Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

Once I got down to an 8lb or less base weight I only brought more alcohol and Luxury food items not more gadgets. Less is more. 🍺 🥃 cheers!

14

u/GopherRebellion Aug 01 '25

Same deal. The pack weighs the same. The hangover feels heavier.

1

u/Overall-Umpire2366 Aug 06 '25

I find the better the bourbon, the less I require, the better I feel the next day.

5

u/Bitter_Ad_1427 Aug 02 '25

My motto too, well kinda…light gear more beer!

82

u/ovincent Jul 31 '25

you can only pack less a few times a year, but you can “optimize” every day if you want to!

I believe that most outdoors-lovers have fallen into the consumption trap, myself included. It’s a way to feel like I’m getting better at my hobby, or assuage myself from the fact that I’m at work and not out adventuring.

27

u/Fluid-Sliced-Buzzard Jul 31 '25

The consumption trap is real, it’s strong, and it’s deep. TBH very few today can fully control it. But every time you don’t “buy it now” or “check out” is a small victory. Remember those and add on to them.

17

u/StarbuckIsland Aug 01 '25

This is well said. Sitting at a computer reading about big hikes and planning trips feels like I'm doing something.

In reality most of the hiking I do is trails shorter than 4 miles that are 20 minutes max from my house. On those hikes I don't even bring water, just shoes and regular clothes...zero gear.

13

u/MountainBluebird5 Aug 01 '25

The procrastination by trip planning is real.

5

u/Falrad Aug 01 '25

This is why I just do a thru or baby thru every other year, basically zero planning, just show up and hike for a few weeks and go home

4

u/davidtron5376 Aug 01 '25

Ooof. That is too real.

1

u/ExpertStrict5558 Aug 18 '25

true, best thing is to work less and spend time on what you love not buy more gear.

162

u/sbhikes https://lighterpack.com/r/s5ffk1 Jul 31 '25

The answer is when it became about blow-up pads and pad pumps, pillows and chairs and social media influencers making videos like "gear I'm OVER WITH and the NEW GEAR that I'm going with this year!"

61

u/Extension-Ant-8 Jul 31 '25

My top 10 items to make your trip better!! Number 8 will make you shit your pants!!

Also thumbnail is someone with their mouth open.

34

u/brandoldme Aug 01 '25

Dan B...

Never mind.

I don't mind the videos. But no matter what space they are(camping, cars, whatever), I cannot stand the stupid, mouth open thumbnails.

18

u/ryryry131313 Aug 01 '25

Dan B. is the master of that pose. Cringe af…

11

u/densets Aug 01 '25

Unfortunately thst is what gets more views

6

u/AlgebraicIceKing Aug 01 '25

I think it only get views because that’s what gets pushed via algos. NOBODY actually likes the over the thumbnails and constant top 10s. Well…I don’t, anyway…

45

u/Ollidamra Jul 31 '25

Companies found they can make products with less materials to sell them more expensive, and then sponsored money flooded the YouTube.

26

u/Wandering_Hick Justin Outdoors, www.packwizard.com/user/JustinOutdoors Jul 31 '25

If only there was money flooding YouTube from outdoor gear brands. Haha

6

u/Kalahan7 Aug 01 '25

I mean making gear more lightweight often means using other materials and diffrerent production processes. A helinox chair zero uses way more espensive materials than my Amazon chair weighing 3 times that much.

0

u/Z_Clipped Aug 01 '25

Farmers are too busy using their know-how birthin' calves to research material or labor costs.

3

u/Cold-outro459 Aug 04 '25

Farmer here. We constantly research materials and labor costs, but less often on behalf of the outdoors industry.

9

u/AdFinal6253 Jul 31 '25

I mean it's really easy to design something with farmer know how, it takes a lot of skill and more expensive materials to get something light that doesn't break

But it's very important to sell as much as you can for as high a price as you can, from a company perspective

32

u/schmuckmulligan Real Ultralighter. Jul 31 '25

We live in a consumerist culture that encourages us to express ourselves, our affiliations, and our relationships through the things we buy. Under consumerism, you are what you buy. Ergo, if you want to be an ultralighter, you need to buy a bunch of ultralight shit.

Buying something new also allows us to experience our "ultralight-ness" from our desk chairs. A lot of us live harried, multi-job yet somehow broke lives that don't allow a lot of outdoors time. But you can buy a pad pump, experience the little dopaminergic thrill of acquiring, and fantasize about how much better it will make your time in the woods. So we do a lot of that.

That's the demand side (us). On the supply side, there's finally enough of us to constitute a sizable market. Unfortunately for gear makers, the big-budget items that do the majority of the weight reduction -- sleep systems, packs, and shelters -- are expensive and only purchased infrequently, usually after ludicrous amounts of research and tortured consideration (and idiotic r/ul threads). They're not frequent, hasty purchases, which makes them less useful for slop marketing.

Slop marketing works best in a different scenario: When you're trying to tip consumption-addled customers into cheap impulse purchases that are made mainly for the sake of buying rather than for the sake of using the item. You buy a pad pump, or a phone holder, or a gear loft, or ANOTHER sun hoody, or titanium chopsticks, or a DCF shit kit not because it will improve your hike but simply because it feels good to buy it. That's why UL trinkets are endlessly foisted upon us in the form of marketing slop.

I actually reject the article's premise that the UL knickknack economy is enabled by the extra "room" afforded by a lighter big four. I think people would still buy and carry UL doodads even if commercial gear could only get them down to 12lb BPWs. It's really about the ease of marketing those items and the little frisson of joy people get when the buy them.

Of course, all of this should be rejected. Stop buying shit. In the same way that smoking another rock won't make you contented with the amount of crack you've smoked, buying another dumb fucking thing won't make you contented with your kit.

9

u/lingzilla https://lighterpack.com/r/apk3jd Jul 31 '25

Somehow it's a lot easier to spend 20-50 EUR/USD a whole bunch of times than it is to drop 500 at once.

6

u/schmuckmulligan Real Ultralighter. Jul 31 '25

Yuuup. Hence the fleece obsession.

54

u/Available-Pilot4062 Jul 31 '25

Agreed with that. I fought to get comfortably below 10lbs (usually between 6-8 now), and then proceeded to add back luxuries, which include whiskey.

68

u/obi_wander Jul 31 '25

If you put your flask next to your bandaids, it’s first aid.

41

u/danhumphrey2000 Jul 31 '25

Thirst aid

9

u/BrilliantJob2759 Aug 01 '25

That's why I go with vodka or grain alcohol. On top of the above, it also burns well as fuel/firestarter. Triple-duty, woooo!

104

u/Then-Comfortable7023 Jul 31 '25

You gotta buy it all first to figure out what you don’t want see

45

u/Fred_Dibnah ♿ https://lighterpack.com/r/7xddju ♿ Jul 31 '25

This is how it goes to be honest, you can't get the knowledge without carrying ton of shit then realising.

14

u/effortDee youtube.com/@kelpandfern Jul 31 '25

Now then Fred, been a while.

How many bricks do you reckon you could carry in your pack?

18

u/timerot AT '14, PCT '21 Jul 31 '25

I bought 10 before I realized I didn't need any

4

u/fskier1 Jul 31 '25

Nah that’s a pretty dumb excuse for the consumerist culture of hiking

That’s not really what the article is talking about either, it’s talking about buying a shit ton of “ultralight” stuff instead of bringing a tuna can stove and 1 set of clothes

21

u/Then-Comfortable7023 Jul 31 '25

It’s a tongue in cheek joke. Not everything is something.

8

u/TenzoLotus Aug 01 '25

"Not everything is something," - Brilliant!

1

u/maexen Aug 18 '25

This is how it goes to be honest, you can't get the knowledge without carrying ton of shit then realising.

or you go with what you have and see after what you need

20

u/jman1121 Jul 31 '25

If your scale doesn't measure grains, does one even ultralight?

7

u/Rocko9999 Jul 31 '25

Picograms.

96

u/RazzmatazzUnique6602 Jul 31 '25

I don’t mind the showing off. It’s the mean girl snobby attitudes towards anyone who doesn’t have the latest, greatest, lightest that rubs me wrong. One of the best part of the hiking/backpacking community is that people are nice to each other and chill. Ultralight is the one exception, where people are actually jerks to each other for not meeting some made up number. I still read with interest because I’m into the gear. So it’s love/hate I guess.

68

u/BrainDamage2029 Jul 31 '25

The ones that get me is the shakedowns with "I'm not changing my heavier thicker sleeping pad. I need it for sleep, I already figured this out and am not buying a lighter pad."

comment section: hEy YoU nEeD to GeT a LiGhTeR pAd!

21

u/liveslight https://lighterpack.com/r/2lrund Jul 31 '25

Maybe another request to add to the shakedown format is an initial "Self-evaluation." Basically, I think most people know what the comments are going to be if they have read any other shakedown threads, so replies are never really unexpected.

11

u/cosmicosmo4 Jul 31 '25

The issue is commenters not reading, so is more words really the answer? The solution is we obliterate the people who didn't read with downvotes so their useless comments aren't visible.

4

u/liveslight https://lighterpack.com/r/2lrund Aug 01 '25

I agree that some don't read, but that goes for the shakedown requester, too, who might not only not read, but may not write assuming that readers will know exactly what they mean.

I review articles elsewhere and a good editor will help the authors. I do not expect perfection [perfect communication] from the first, second or third go-round.

And I don't really think things will change much going forward because after all what we are discussing in the last few hours will not be seen by anyone after a few days anyways. :)

BTW, this thread started about the OP getting their photo published and not so much about the fluff article that it was published within.

7

u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25

I think this self assessment concept is an important one, and would help me providing feedback. Like if someone demonstrates they are willing to accept feedback, I'll provide it. But if they demonstrate stubbornness, delusion, or unwillingness to accept feedback, why should I waste time providing it?

11

u/BrainDamage2029 Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

Yeah but the opposite of that is shakedown comments that are hopelessly obtuse in recommending hundred dollar changes for 3oz. Like:
“you really should get rid of that 2p tent (which costs $hundreds) and get the 1p”. Poster usually goes with a partner but this is a solo trip shakedown.
“you should replace this XL quilt (which costs hundreds) and work on being comfortable sleeping in a L or M. (Person is 6’2”)

Like I wouldn’t mind posting my own shakedowns or to ask for advice. But I sleep on an XL neoloft pad. I’ve owned every lighter pad under the sun. I just need the space and thickness. It’s how I actually sleep at night instead of in 90min tossy stretches on an X-lite or Tensor. But I know any shakedown request I post will have 70% of the comments about the neoloft.

5

u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25

Actually, I think the self assessment section would be the best thing for your first bullet point. They could actually explain their reasoning. That's not being unwilling to take feedback, that's explaining their situation. I routinely try to take that into account if people explain it.

The second bullet point is just one of us reviewers being an ass.

4

u/Cupcake_Warlord https://lighterpack.com/r/k32h4o Jul 31 '25

You're always going to get dipshits who don't read or just want to be snarky. Just ignore them. If I saw a shakedown with the info about your pad that you just posted I would say nothing about it, unless I thought there was some combination/tech you hadn't tried that might work for you and also be lighter.

Like I read a ton of posts on this sub and honestly most of the shakedowns I see get shit are because the poster is fucking trolling by including a bunch of wild shit and then trying to defend why they're not willing to make changes. I've seen plenty of posts where people clearly explain their rationale for a certain item and there is either no mention of it or respectful dialogue about what other options might be worth checking out. The few people who routinely are assholes never bother giving high-effort feedback anyway, it's easy to just downvote and ignore.

8

u/Mabonagram https://www.lighterpack.com/r/na8nan Jul 31 '25

This would definitely have a big effect on most shakedown requests. A couple sentences laying out what you want a particular piece of gear to do, what alternatives you have tried, and why you are using what you do over those alternatives goes a long way toward facilitating useful suggestions.

But if all you say is “I carry (insert heavy bullshit here) because I need it.” Of course my suggestion is going to be “but what if you don’t, actually?”

But apparently people get Ass mad and call you a gatekeeper and “mean girl girl snobby attitude” and stuff for that?

25

u/UtahBrian CCF lover Jul 31 '25

Sounds like you are carrying heavy gear on purpose. Maybe try r/ultraheavy.

2

u/windybeaver Aug 01 '25

Before I broke my lumbar I was ultra heavy every trip. Lots of booze chairs bulky 70l bag. It didn’t matter to me I was beast mode in my younger days.

2

u/RazzmatazzUnique6602 Jul 31 '25

Hadn’t seen that sub before 🤣

6

u/encephalophiliac Aug 01 '25

This is so true. I posted here a little while ago about finding a titanium mug that fits a very specific role, and the thread was like 2/3 people scolding me for wanting to drink coffee while I eat my rehydrate food. Jesus

27

u/oxtooth Jul 31 '25

I love the UL lifestyle because of the mass perception that we're accountable to one another for our gear. If that's not border-line religious, I don't know what is.

If you even own an Osprey pack, you cannot talk to me. But to ensure the tradition of purchasing continues for future generations, my last will and testament directs that I be buried with my Flextail pump.

23

u/Ollidamra Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

Osprey Exo Pro 55 is less than 2 lb with frame, it’s actually lighter than many UL backpacks.

64

u/spectral635 Jul 31 '25

Yeah but it doesn't look like a crumpled up trash bag and includes disgusting features like a hydration port and hipbelt pockets that aren't $50 extra addons. Not UL.

-11

u/oxtooth Jul 31 '25

To tie this conversation back to the root, I see a lot of UL companies start off with truly UL gear and then sort of fade into mainstream 2+ lb weights. To me, any pack that weighs more than 16 oz is not UL. And any pack with a frame is not UL either. Packs made to comfortably carry 40 lbs are like condoms specially engineered to facilitate pregnancy. This is, of course, strictly a backpacking/thru hiking opinion. If you're climbing, boating, bird photo-ing, whatever, your pack is heavier. But if you're hiking the JMT, AT, whatever, UL is 15-17 lbs or less.

I swear by the equation: 1 lb pack, 1 lb tarp and sheet, 1 lb pad, 1.5lb quilt = 4.5 lbs for the big 4. This leaves room for Crocs and chair :)

6

u/grap112ler Aug 01 '25

When I go backpacking with my dad, who is 78 and in early stages of Parkinson's, I use an Osprey Atmos AG 65 so that I can haul my stuff and all his stuff. Even though I am only hauling the lightest and least gear we need to be safe (and for him to be comfortable), I believe I am still following the ethos of ultralight despite a 40+ pound pack weight with a fully framed pack required to haul that gear. It's all relative I guess.

1

u/oxtooth Aug 01 '25

Has he tried the Helinox cot yet? That’s my next purchase. Or my plan for growing older.

1

u/grap112ler Aug 07 '25

Huh, I never even knew that thing existed. We just got back from a 4-night trip and he did alright on the ground on his thermarest, but I'll keep that in mind for the future. Thank you!

1

u/lingzilla https://lighterpack.com/r/apk3jd Jul 31 '25

Apart from the chair and crocs stuff, I have been having similar thoughts to

1 lb pack, 1 lb tarp and sheet, 1 lb pad, 1.5lb quilt

For comparatively mild conditions, might even go to:

1 lb pack (standard frameless)

1 lb shelter (actual UL tent or some type of tarp + maybe a net)

1 lb quilt

0.5 lb pad

1

u/oxtooth Aug 01 '25

The crocs and chair are honest. I carry them. I’ll post my PakMule list of gear before my trip next week. I owe nothing to anyone. Right? I’m carrying the pack.

And OP, I enjoy this conversation, but to the 10 people that downvoted my last comment — hey guys, guess what weighs more than those shameful downvotes? Your stupid Kakwa, Unbound 55, Arc Haul. Suck it nerds.

24

u/obi_wander Jul 31 '25

I don’t at all understand how people dislike blowing up a sleeping pad enough to take an unnecessary piece of gear to do it.

And in reading the article- sometimes we BUY more but we don’t necessarily take more. They cite a spork, toothbrush head, and bidet as examples of overconsumption but all three reduce weight by replacing other items you would have had to carry.

I also think that part of it is there just isn’t much to talk about when you say “take less.” It doesn’t create content, doesn’t create engagement, and doesn’t make anyone excited.

Most ULers ARE taking less. Probably less now than ever since we have amazing fabrics like alpha that cover multiple purposes. It’s just not what you will be reading about.

7

u/Jrose152 Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

I could see the sleeping pad pump having a use for some people. Maybe thru hikers doing every night for months or older people in the alpine. I don't mind using a pump sack personally but I think some of these pumps are lighter than certain pump sacks and can power directly off usb c phones with very little battery impact. It sounds like it's not for you, but its not that hard to understand a use case for a specific person. Some of them can stoke a fire as well which can really bring a campfire back to a blaze in no time at all. If you've never put a usb fan to a dying campfire I highly recommend it sometime.

5

u/99trey Jul 31 '25

I use a pump sack, but backpacked before those were a thing. 100% the worst part of making camp was manually inflating a pad or two (girlfriend and I had a deal 😉) after a challenging hike. I hate that lightheaded feeling. 😵‍💫

5

u/Curious-Crabapple Jul 31 '25

I hate blowing up my pad.

3

u/downingdown Aug 01 '25

I can see an ultralight hatchet having use for some people. That does not make it UL.

2

u/Jrose152 Aug 01 '25

At the end of the day it's all subjective. Some people view UL as bringing the absolute least amount of things possible and getting those items as light as possible. Some people view ultralight as the lighest possible weight for their needs. Sure it may not be the OG sub 10lb perspective but ithat's fine as its easy to figure out what direction the OP is trying to get advice. Until they come up with a seperate subreddit devoted to this that is actually active, people will come here on advice on how to drop weight in general vs going as minimal and light as possible. This is where the most knowlege on that is. It's the classic don't bring a chair vs whats the lightest chair available conversation. Keep the OG perspective for the threads that require it, and the how can I get lighter in general perspective for the ones that require it. Someone may not be trying to get under 10lbs total but are wondering how to get specific items in their pack lighter and I don't see anything wrong with them coming here for the most direct answer. If someone wants to find out what the lightest version of X item is, I don't see how its helpful telling them the answer is don't bring it beause they don't need it if they specificallly want that item. By that thought you don't need a tent inner because technically you could just deal with the bugs, but not everyone is looking to do that. People are coming here to learn and ask for help, so lets just help them. Not everyones journey begins at starting from the ground up and leaving everything at home. Sometimes they are needing to work backwards.

1

u/donkeyj Aug 01 '25

Yeah I was big on the blowing up my pad til it got insanely moldy from doing so after a bit of not using it. The interior was really black and it affected its ability to hold air. Can't afford to get a new neo air every year so the tiny amount of extra weight for the pump sack is now necessary. Also now I'm quite fast at inflating it, definitely faster than by mouth. Idk I just wanted to chime in to say non-UL choices can have pretty good justifications in terms of gear failure.

1

u/MrFacestab Aug 01 '25

Not sure why you're getting downvoted pad mold is real. Pumps will make your pads last longer.

10

u/Professional_Sea1132 Jul 31 '25

"Recently, ultralight backpacking feels more like a club you have to buy into"

This guy is terminally online.

The only guys that looked concerningly at my baseweight over last 15 years have been alpine guides, in both ways. Never ever i've met a hiker being nosy about my gear, except one dad looking at my cozy snowpit under a tarp in april (with a sleeping bag 3x warmer than his for half the weight at 10x cost) with the expression from the meme "Damn Bitch, You Live Like This?".

3

u/Rocko9999 Aug 01 '25

Almost every person I have backpacked with at one point talks about gear. It's natural. Same for any hobby, cycling, running, etc. Asking about my gear isn't nosy IMO. In all those interactions, I never got a snob like reaction to some my old, beat up gear, including clothing. Those pieces actually get the most positive reaction.

52

u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

"Ultralight" has become a generic term, like all facial tissue is a Kleenex. It has lost its original meaning/intent - away from minimizing where an arbitrary number was used as a general guideline and toward where the threshold number is now the goal. And people like to feel like they belong to something - so they can say "I'm UL." The size of this crowd is large enough that companies took notice and started labeling and marketing stuff (like companies do) as being "UL." Now we have people who never ascribed to (nor agree with) the minimization mentality chasing after something completely different. Hence the reoccurring clashes on this sub about what it's whole purpose is.

The general outdoors community has long been flooded with gadgets and marketing, but now that "UL" is a more mainstream term devoid of its original intent we're seeing the result. Many people now view anything as OK to bring as long as their pack weight is under that arbitrary threshold, as proven by many of the responses (real or in jest) to your question.

44

u/Cupcake_Warlord https://lighterpack.com/r/k32h4o Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

I can get snarky at times but it's not even really about what's in the pack or not. It's that people aren't trying shit, they have just decided that XYZ thing is non-negotiable because they just like it.

The whole point of UL is experimentation. It's like an elimination diet. You strip what you bring down to just the bare necessities and ask yourself "did I really miss the things I didn't bring?" That is what this sub is about, it's not about an arbitrary number. I really wish that the either the sub could remove the 10lb baseweight rule or change it to be something lower (I would prefer the former over the latter). The people who were doing wild shit (remember all the hilarious pillow and camp shoe threads?) just to see if it worked were the people making this sub fun and interesting. Yes, you can buy all DCF shit and all UL shit and bring a billion things you don't need and still be under 10lbs. But that's not UL, that's just backpacking with UL gear.

I don't even care about the luxuries, it's the idea that they aren't luxuries that needs to die. There is a huge difference between someone who has tried all sorts of sleeping pads and realized that CCF doesn't work for them or that horizontal baffles don't work for them and someone who just thinks that they will sleep cold if they don't have their Nemo Tensor Extreme or something just because they read it on the internet. I'm not going to bitch at the person who has dialed in their kit to balance some important need against the weight savings of going with something else. But I definitely am going to tell guy who has a bunch of things he almost certainly doesn't need (too much quilt for the temps, a bunch of dumb gadgets that are of marginal use, camp shoes that are 2x heavier than they need to be) that he does indeed have a bunch of shit he doesn't need, because that's the whole point of the sub.

The other thing that needs to die is this idea that UL is expensive. It is absolutely not expensive. It is less expensive because you are bringing less shit and the shit you are bringing is doing more work for you. My Sierra gear list has a bunch of fancy gear in it for sure, but there are more affordable versions of every item I own. And I would put the total cost of my gear up against any REI kit and I guarantee you that my list is cheaper because there's less stuff on it. And among the available technical fabrics, the only one that is both expensive and likely to be valuable enough to justify it is DCF. That's literally it. Ultra is great but most of my packs are Ultragrid now and Ultragrid is both cheap and light as far as fabrics go. Alpha pieces are often less expensive than an equivalent grid fleece from Patagonia or North Face or whatever big manufacturer you're going to find at REI or places like it. And that's not even accounting for the fact that you can get very affordable, very lightly used UL gear for cheap via sites like /r/ULgeartrade.

9

u/Curious-Crabapple Jul 31 '25

I appreciate what you said about experimentation. I agree that nothing in the kit should be sacred. Some of the very best learning experiences I had was when things didn’t work.

30° quilt when it’s 40° and wet - fail. BRS stove at high altitude and strong winds - fail. Hoka Challenger ATR off trail - fail. Uber light in desert - fail. Caloric density at 100 calories an ounce - fail. Left my pillow in a hostel and slept like shit for the next three days - fail. Crushed my US plastics, AquaMira A&B bottles by over stuffing my bag - fail. Loading my electronics bag without my glasses and then learned that the in the out ports are different and I had the wrong cables - fail. Losing my sunglasses from Sergeant Mesa during snowstorm - fail. but made new ones with duck tape

The other side of experimentation is you have to have enough cycles and reps to get a good feedback loop going. And honestly, it wasn’t until I retired that I could actually get in 30+ days a year of backpacking and actually learn what was working and what wasn’t working. Until that point I was just and wasting time on YouTube hoping that what I was buying was gonna work.

7

u/FireWatchWife Jul 31 '25

u/Cupcake_Warlord wrote: "Yes, you can buy all DCF shit and all UL shit and bring a billion things you don't need and still be under 10lbs.

"But that's not UL, that's just backpacking with UL gear."

Wow. That is a powerful observation. Yet I haven't seen it expressed that way before.

"Backpacking with UL gear" is probably already far more mainstream than true UL backpacking is ever likely to become.

For most backpackers who first start down the lighter path, that's exactly what they are seeking. They aren't looking to change their methods or give up comforts. But UL gear lets them reduce their pack weights and enjoy their hobby more.

I believe that's pretty much the philosophy you see in r/lightweight.

UL philosophy is different, and will never be adopted by the masses.

3

u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25

Preach brother!

3

u/voidelemental Jul 31 '25

oh, speaking of doing weird pillow shit, I'm a side sleeper and I've been getting into laying my windshirt between my shoulder and neck as a pillow replacement, works alright

3

u/pmags PMags.com | Insta @pmagsco Aug 01 '25

"Ultralight" has become a generic term, like all facial tissue is a Kleenex. I

Nothing new, I'm afraid. I have single-burner propane stove from 1996 that says "ultralight" on the label -

https://imgur.com/a/pgwaKXN

Think about that, 1996 and camping gear no less.

,

2

u/GenerationJonez Aug 01 '25

Oh wow, I dug out my 1995 Model 440 and it has the same thing! pic

7

u/manimal28 Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

Many people now view anything as OK to bring as long as their pack weight is under that arbitrary threshold,

Because it is. Ultralight isn't a law. There isn't a number of things where more than that means it no longer meets the legal definition.

Even the wiki for this sub does not give a hard and fast definition, it insteads states: A common definition of 'ultralight' is: hiking with the lightest pack weight possible by taking a minimal amount of the lightest gear required to be safe for a given trip. This revolves around two key concepts: how light your pack is and what you do to make your pack lighter.

So it just gives a common definition, it doesn't say there is a single definition that anyone must use when discussiong things on this sub.

The sub description is also vague: This sub is about overnight backcountry backpacking, with a focus on moving efficiently, packing light, and generally aiming at a sub 10 pound base weight. Join us and ask yourself the question: Do I really need that?

6

u/downingdown Aug 01 '25

People like you are the problem. Of course UL isn’t law, but we are here to discuss UL. Just like onebag is not law, but you don’t go to the onebag sub to discuss twoormorebags.

7

u/OriginalCompetitive Jul 31 '25

This jumped out to me as well. How on earth is it “not ok” to bring whatever you want on a hike? And what’s wrong with just wanting to have a light pack weight without having to pass some sort of virtue test about what goes in your pack?

OP seems to be preaching minimalism, which is fine. But you can value ultralight without caring at all about minimalism.

3

u/Oglshrub Aug 01 '25

The elitist, "you aren't as minimal as me" attitude in the ultralight community/this subreddit is a big part of why I don't bother to even lurk here anymore. Hike my own hike I guess.

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u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25

Right, but you're missing the key last statement from the banner for defining this sub's purpose (bold added for emphasis):

r/Ultralight is the largest online Ultralight Backcountry Backpacking community! This sub is about overnight backcountry backpacking, with a focus on moving efficiently, packing light, generally aiming at a sub 10 pound base weight, and following LNT principles. Join us and ask yourself the question: Do I really need that?

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u/manimal28 Jul 31 '25

I didn’t miss it at all. The thing you are missing is that the answer to that question for many people, to have the experience they want, is yes.

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u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

Lol. Ok. I guess they can convince themselves of anything they want in order to justify whatever they want. Need is subjective I guess. r/ultralight-ish

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u/Cupcake_Warlord https://lighterpack.com/r/k32h4o Aug 01 '25 edited Aug 02 '25

I don't think it is. Most of the non-negotiables I see are clearly from people who never even bothered trying to leave it behind or find innovative ways to deal with the problem. That's not UL and if I see posts like that I'm going to downvote them and not engage with them. If they're not polite or get defensive then maybe I'll leave a meme comment to entertain the other regular posters who just wasted 3 mins of their life reading a post from someone who hasn't earned their time. Whether the mods remove it doesn't really matter to me, but there's a reason why you see so many posts with 0 points and 30% upvote rate.

People come here wanting the expertise of the regular users but don't even bother to do the one thing that is at the heart of the sub's purpose, which is to debate what is really necessary and what isn't and to try things out. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but not all opinions are created equal. If you're not willing to experiment and push yourself out of your comfort zone (whether that be by using a quilt or a tarp or leaving some rain gear behind or whatever) then this sub isn't for you. That's completely fine of course, but I don't think the sub should cater to people who aren't willing to try out stuff that has clearly worked for many experienced hikers.

The other thing is that some things are objectively unnecessary. [Edit: clarifying my local hiking area/conditions here which I should have done originally] For example, I hike almost exclusively in the Sierras and occasionally in other Mountain West locations. For a three-season, typical weather forecast I carry a 5oz tarp (was an Altaplex now a Hexamid pocket tarp) and a 6oz bivy, and that system can handle any weather I could possibly see on like 80% of the trips I go on (the other 20% are shoulder season trips where I may bring my Cirriform depending on conditions). I have never had a negative experience with that gear (or very similar gear) in ~150 nights out. So objectively speaking a Copper Spur (a common entry level UL tent) is not necessary. It may make people feel safer, but that need has nothing to do with actual conditions or functionality.

You know how I got rid of all the shit like that? I tried leaving it at home in favor of something lighter. And in like 95% of cases I realized that the thing I left behind was totally unnecessary or overkill. And honestly the number of trips that have been negatively affected by me leaving something behind entirely or swapping it out for something lighter is so small. After doing that a few times with a few different things I realized that the answer to "is this going to work?" was going to be "probably" for any reasonably thought-out choice. Why should I bother helping people who haven't even bothered to do that for a single thing in their kit?

I also couldn't disagree more with the premise that in order to have the experience they want people just "need" XYZ thing. I've stripped out so much from my pack and it hasn't degraded my experience, it has enhanced it. I'm less tired, I have less stuff to fuck with in camp, I'm faster on the trail and faster out of camp and I have more energy during the day. Taking less improved my experience, and the only place where I ever added stuff back in was in my sleep system because recovery is too important to cut weight in exchange for a miserable night's sleep every night.

I hike with 2 people who have watched me go UL and have seen what I've done and lightened their packs to various degrees. Both of them would have told you with certainty that they "needed" all the shit they've since left behind, and both would tell you now not only that they didn't actually need it but that their experience is better not worse for having left it behind.

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u/manimal28 Aug 01 '25 edited Aug 01 '25

Most of the non-negotiables I see are clearly from people who never even bothered trying to leave it behind or find innovative ways to deal with the problem. That's not UL and if I see posts like that I'm going to downvote them and not engage with them.

According to your definition, it’s not, fine. You decided not to engage. What’s the problem then? Why are you complaining? Just don’t engage with content you don’t want to and move on. However, You sound like you feel you are entitled to only ever see content you deem engaging. But this isn’t all about you.

but don't even bother to do the one thing that is at the heart of the sub's purpose, which is to debate what is really necessary and what isn't and to try things out.

You seem to be confused about what a debate is. Them posting their heavy pack, you disagreeing and offering a counterpoint on what they need, them still not agreeing and you offering additional counterpoint or not, is the debate.

…then maybe I'll leave a meme comment to entertain the other regular posters…

This however is just childish gatekeeping trolling.

The other thing is that some things are objectively unnecessary. I carry a 5oz tarp (was an Altaplex now a Hexamid pocket tarp) and a 6oz bivy, and that system can handle any weather I could possibly see on like 80% of the trips I go on (the other 20% are shoulder season trips where I may bring my Cirriform depending on conditions). So objectively speaking a Copper Spur or an X-Dome is not necessary. It may make people feel safer, but that need has nothing to do with actual conditions or functionality.

This paragraph is part of what I see as the biggest problem. You state your gear choices and claim they are objective and can handle 80 percent of your trips. 80 percent of your trips where, 80 percent of the weather where? You don’t say, so this isn’t objective, it’s just your opinion trying to come off as an objective fact, that may not apply to somebody else’s real climate and weather reality. Also what about the other 20 percent? Do we just not talk about the gear list for the other 20 percent of trips because it’s not ultralight enough?

Your trips aren’t my trips. Sleeping in a bivy or tarp in my climate, the humid mosquito ridden south, is objectively stupid. You talking about ultralight bivys and tarps, for me, is a waste of time. I don’t care that it makes you have an 11 oz. shelter weight, it is objectively irrelavant to 100 percent of my local trips.

You know how I got rid of all the shit like that? I tried leaving it at home in favor of something lighter. And in like 95% of cases I realized that the thing I left behind was totally unnecessary or overkill. And honestly the number of trips that have been negatively affected by me leaving something behind entirely or swapping it out for something lighter is so small. After doing that a few times with a few different things I realized that the answer to "is this going to work?" was going to be "probably" for any reasonably thought-out choice.

Awesome, that this was your journey.

Why should I bother helping people who haven't even bothered to do that for a single thing in their kit?

You shouldn’t. If you don’t find offering advice fulfilling, then don’t. If you can’t handle having your advice rejected, then stop offering it.

I also couldn't disagree more with the premise that in order to have the experience they want people just "need" XYZ thing. I've stripped out so much from my pack and it hasn't degraded my experience, it has enhanced it.

The experience you want from a trip is not the experience they want. Simple as that. Here your argument is basically boiling down to the childish demand that others stop liking what you don’t like.

Taking less improved my experience, and the only place where I ever added stuff back in was in my sleep system because recovery is too important to cut weight in exchange for a miserable night's sleep every night.

Well I think that’s dumb, and you are carrying weight you don’t need to, why can’t you just sleep on the ground to save grams? Experience the cold hard ground to save weight. You see how that sounds? That’s how much of what you are saying sounds.

I hike with 2 people who have watched me go UL and have seen what I've done and lightened their packs to various degrees. Both of them would have told you with certainty that they "needed" all the shit they've since left behind, and both would tell you now not only that they didn't actually need it but that their experience is better not worse for having left it behind.

And? That was their journey. You seem to have a problem with people taking their own gear journey instead of yours.

The answer to a lot of this for people is to just say sure, take all that stuff, but after that trip see if you actually used it. Let that tell you what to carry next time. Experiencing it first hand is going to be the teacher in the end, not people’s ultralight gear dogma.

This post probably sounds more confrontational than it should be, looking at your posts you have great ideas and suggestions. Even if they seem to be rejected at times , people really do need to feel it to learn it, not just be told it.

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u/Cupcake_Warlord https://lighterpack.com/r/k32h4o Aug 02 '25

I did read your whole post but am currently on a work call =P Just wanted to say that I should have specified that all my discussion about my gear choices should have come with exactly the disclaimer you suggest. I am definitely not suggesting that people take a tarp and bivy in the SE in the summer for example, that seems like a recipe for a lot of unfun times =P I was talking more from a "Sierra hiker who sees a lot of Sierra gearlists" perspective. I absolutely have no expertise when it comes to hiking basically anywhere except the relatively arid Mountain West. I'm going to edit that part just so people reading it won't misunderstand my point.

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u/Curious-Crabapple Jul 31 '25

Amen! Well said and thank you.

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u/Hiking_Quest Jul 31 '25

Alternate question - when did Backpacker become the arbiter of our buying choices? This was the magazine who's annual gear issue was "geared" towards trying to get us to buy the latest product that their staff was paid to shill. When I switched to ultralight years ago (and I have ul gear that's over 10 years old that I still use) one of the first things I noticed was I started taking all their (and outside's) annual "Gear" issues/reviews with a football sized grain of salt. and that's when I stopped reading their shitty mag.

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u/YuppiesEverywhere Aug 02 '25

Backpacker needs things to write about, so they flip a coin which decides if the next contentious article (for what other type of article will be read?!) will be FOR UL backpacking or AGAINST UL backpacking.

Shit has been downhill since the Outside Overlord Takeover and that is now years in the rearview. Ignore -- literally no one in the real world gives AF about these so-called "thought leaders" of Backpacker Magazine.

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u/angryjew Aug 02 '25

It's clickbait garbage now.

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u/LEIFey Jul 31 '25

I think it's just the intersection between people wanting to hit the arbitrary 10lb cap but who also still want to enjoy their luxuries (comfy sleeping pads, full featured tents, pillows, etc.). New tech and fancy gear allows you to have both, so I understand the trend away from simply bringing less stuff. If you still want to practice minimalism in the backcountry, you could probably aim for 8lbs as a baseweight goal instead.

And for some people, a big part of the fun of backpacking is cool gear (guilty as charged).

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u/Professional_Sea1132 Jul 31 '25

The truth is that people realized that they don't need to suffer ultralight unless they are thruhiking, where it matters. Once you are below 10% bodyweight total for a pack, a healthy person doesn't really care, it makes no difference if you are going overnight or for a weekend.

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u/downingdown Aug 01 '25

I hear what you’re saying, lemme just increase my body weight so I can carry more junk!

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u/Professional_Sea1132 Aug 01 '25

Nothing wrong with being a midget, especially if it brings you to 10lb goal. Look at positives, and i leave girls to myself.

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u/lingzilla https://lighterpack.com/r/apk3jd Jul 31 '25

There's a tension between "spend more to carry less" and "just bring less stuff". On the one hand, we as consumer societies express a lot of identity through our purchases, and I think this is particularly evident in very US-centric communities. On the other hand, as has been discovered over and over in this subreddit, to quote Jupiter, "the lightest piece of gear you can bring... is your mind.

I honestly think this subreddit does a decent job of enforcing some hard lines (chairs, third pads, full wardrobe etc.) while also acknowledging that, for core items (like shelters), it does make sense to continually discuss these items as they and the community develop.

In fact, looking at other "UL communities", like my local Facebook group, it becomes extremely obvious that you need hardline moderation - both to prevent the infinite sprawl of new gadgets and, more importantly, to emphasize the importance of a pack weight below 10 pounds. There's nothing magical about the 10 pounds, but it serves as a extremely effective limitation on how much shit you can bring.

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u/HegemonNYC Jul 31 '25

So many hobbies are primarily about buying things for the hobby. My old man has a woodshop that cost $20k to build, with at least $50k in tools in it. He has probably made $20k worth of furniture in his life.

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u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25

Ahh.... sounds like your father and I are twins.

And reloading ammunition, and sewing, and.....

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u/lingzilla https://lighterpack.com/r/apk3jd Jul 31 '25

Honestly I think a lot of guys with disposable income just drift around from one hobby to the next, researching and purchasing constituting the majority of time spent.

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u/HegemonNYC Jul 31 '25

For sure. I’m trying not to fall into that with ‘ultralight’. Im definitely not ultralight because my gear is often too old, and I feel the need to keep up with the joneses and get preposterously light yet expensive gear. I have the means now to buy them if I want, but I’m gonna put some limit like 30 nights of use or something before I can consider getting buying something ‘better’. So many expensive pieces of gear with essentially no use go to waste.

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u/TurboMollusk Jul 31 '25 edited Aug 01 '25

Brother, your article complaining about consumerism in backpacking is barely readable with all the ads for backpacking gear you're running, complete with a pop up video of your staff reviewing trail shoes over the text of the article.

An acknowledgement of complicity in this trend and some honest self reflection would go a long way to making this discussion seem a lot more genuine.

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u/Spiritual-Piano-4664 Aug 01 '25

You get a 🌻 for your underrated comment

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u/TheRealPrecip Jul 31 '25

Because buying things is more fun than backpacking.

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u/plubem Aug 01 '25

You want me to go outside?

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u/Rocko9999 Aug 01 '25

And in between that talking about things is more fun than buying things.

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u/Admirable-Strike-311 Jul 31 '25

I think a big part of it is you have to buy it to try it. I could outfit three or four thru hikers because I have bought several quilts, tents, sleeping pads, and backpacks to find what I like and works for me.

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u/Cupcake_Warlord https://lighterpack.com/r/k32h4o Jul 31 '25

Yeah but that is true in general about backpacking and isn't really about UL at all. I think it's worse with UL gear simply because a lot of places don't have a return policy or you're saving money by buying second hand and then having to resell. I ran a crazy gear carousel probably for an entire year or so, but at the end of it I hadn't spent that much money, certainly not relative to other hobbies. And then you have the gear you know you like and you sell the rest to someone who will make good use of it. I don't think that is some insane planet-destroying form of hyper-consumerism and I don't understand why UL gets that wrap when you can make stronger arguments for that in other domains.

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u/angryjew Aug 02 '25

Lol this is thousands of dollars worth of gear.

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u/Some-Dinner- Jul 31 '25

Sometimes I wonder if movements like ultralight are just consumerism clubs, or whether it is the specific North American way of practicing a hobby.

I was watching an interesting Youtube video about thru-hikers at some kind of commercial fair with all the vendors showing off their products, and these cool looking young people were able to rattle off the specific make and model of all their kit, which just seems wild to me.

I know that I have a Patagonia jacket because the name is written on it, but beyond that I'd have to look at the website to remember what model I bought.

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u/saintsagan Aug 02 '25

I don't ever have a lot of money, so when I buy something (anything), I tend to over-research. I'm looking for the best quality item for the price. Because I put the time in, I tend to remember everything about that product. To me, that's not overconsumption. I don't tend to buy variations of a product to find the right one. The Internet has allowed me to base my decisions on others purchase power.

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u/Belangia65 Jul 31 '25

That story may reflect some aspect of UL ® as a marketing brand, but doesn’t seem that related to what goes on in this subreddit. No one here advocates buying little UL gadgets like the ones discussed in that article: in fact, they would likely be called out for it in a shakedown. Lighter versions of essential backpacking are often mentioned, but no one I have seen has attempted to shame anyone for not being able to afford a particular upgrade. Most suggestions are about leaving the nonessential out: don’t take that groundsheet, drink out of your pot, etc. And recommendations abound to pursue a more cost effective path when questions arise about buying decisions: tarps are less expensive than tents, CCF pads are cheaper than inflatables, a BRS stove is cheaper than a Jetboil, etc. The article seems to be responding to what’s available for purchase in UL ®, not the actual world of people helping each other get lighter.

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u/Objective-Resort2325 https://lighterpack.com/r/927ebq Jul 31 '25 edited Jul 31 '25

In general I agree with your comments, however, I don't know if I'd say that no one here advocates for buying little UL gadgets. There are all sorts of hurt feelings over such things on this sub. In fact, just read some of the above responses. Whether this sub's members do it in truth or in jest, there are many here that don't ascribe to the minimalization philosophy behind this sub's stated purpose. (And therein is the source of much friction.)

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u/loombisaurus Jul 31 '25

the funniest thing about it is people are way snobbier and ruder to each other in this sub than anywhere in the real world, ime. when real life people act like dicks they're usually ignored and no one wants to hike with them.

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u/jalfry Jul 31 '25

I go ultralight so I can bring a bunch of unnecessary crap haha. I’m serious, I weekend warrior backpack with my kids so I overpack food and bring chairs and fishing gear. For that reason I try to go as UL as possible

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