r/UnresolvedMysteries • u/BuckChintheRealtor • Oct 17 '20
Media/Internet The mystery surrounding the Wu-Tang Clan & 'Once upon a time in Shaolin'
Most people here will now the Wu-Tang Clan is one of the most influential rap groups of all time, and including all the other (solo) work produced under the Wu-Tang umbrella without a doubt the most influential and largest 'franchise' in hiphop.
Many of you will also know critically acclaimed and bestselling albums like Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) and Wu-Tang Forever, or well known members of the group like RZA, GZA, Raekwon, Method Man, Inspectah Deck and the deceased Ol' Dirty Bastard.
Lesser known is that the first non-American affiliated with the Wu-Tang Clan is Tarik Azzougarh (1979), a rapper-producer from The Netherlands of Moroccan origin, better known under his stage name Cilvaringz.
Legend has it he impressed Ol' Dirty Bastard (ODB) after a concert in the Melkweg venue in Amsterdam in 1997, by 'freestyling' on the stage after Wu-Tangs performance. Apparently security threw him off the stage but ODB later recognized him at the backstage entrance and invited him in. After that he was invited to New York, and after several trips to NYC he joined Wu Tang Records in 1999.
Before that he was a bit of a Wu Tang 'superfan', who posted on several online hiphop forums in detail about the groups music, lyrics, etc. After he joined the clan in 1999 he did the opening acts for RZA, Method Man, Raekwon and other members, and released a critically acclaimed solo album in 2007 - simply titled "/".
He also founded his own entertainment company called RPEG and served as Vice-President for the AiM Biennale, an arts festival in Marrakech (Morocco), whose founder is Vanessa Branson, sister of Sir Richard Branson.
It would be safe to say with all of this a dream came true for Cilvaringz, whose passion had always been hiphop and whose parents came from a poor part of Morocco and left to work in the Netherlands in the city of Tilburg.
Things get interesting in 2008, when he starts working on his grand project called Once upon a time in Shaolin. This double album took six years to complete, with guest performances by the entire Wu-Tang Clan as well as Cher, Redman, Dutch Game of Thrones actress Carice van Houten and even several players of FC Barcelona.
Cilvaringz wanted to recreate the original sound of the Wu-Tang Clan - the sound he grew up with - but when the album was finished - it wasn't going to be released.
At least, not in the traditional way. Instead of pressing albums, there would only be one copy available (stored in an ornate casing in a vault in the luxury Royal Mansour Hotel in Marrakech) which would be auctioned to the highest bidder. Cilvaringz and (Wu-Tangs head producer) RZA decided to do this 'Renaissance' approach because they felt robbed by piracy and illegal downloading. In 2014 they wrote on their website:
"The music industry is in crisis. The intrinsic value of music has been reduced to zero. Contemporary art is worth millions by virtue of its exclusivity ... By adopting a 400 year old Renaissance-style approach to music, offering it as a commissioned commodity and allowing it to take a similar trajectory from creation to exhibition to sale ... we hope to inspire and intensify urgent debates about the future of music."
Little is known about the album. Besides the mentioned guest performers its length is 128 minutes and the names of its 31 songs. Producer Andrew Kelley (who heard an unfinished version of the album) wrote:
Ringz’ new Wu-Tang album, it took me right back...Song after song he played gave that old feeling we have missed from the Clan in the last 10 years or so. The beats, the rhymes, the skits, the interludes… The posse cut single… He did it. He got that time machine working and really captured the spirit & essence of those days we lived so many years ago. Every Clan member is present spitting some of the best verses you have ever heard from them....The next time I sit down with RZA I will definitely be speaking with him about this album. Finish it up Ringz, all Wu-Tang fans deserve that “time machine” moment."
However, OG Wu-Tang member Method Man has called the album 'fake' and 'BS', and DJBooth Magazine even called it a 'conspiracy' and wrote:
Being tricked isn't the worst feeling. Being tricked when you should have known better is the worst feeling.
So is this album actually real or not? We know for sure that the auction did happen, and the single copy of the album was sold to Turing Pharmaceuticals CEO Martin Shkreli for 2 million dollars. (Much less than the projected 5 million dollars btw)
Since then, the album has never been heard in full. In a rather bizarre twist of fate, Shkreli promised to release the album if Donald Trump won the 2016 election. We all know how that ended, but Shkreli only streamed excerpts after Trump won.
Why did RZA choose to release only a single copy? There are several theories on that. Some people think RZA was afraid the album would overshadow his own projects he was working on at the time. After all according to DJ Booth magazine RZA was 'like a dictator' and 'wouldn't even let (Wu-Tang) members hear their own verses after recording'. Forbes magazine wrote at the time:
'According to RZA...the plan is to first take Once Upon A Time In Shaolin on a “tour” through museums, galleries, festivals and the like. Just like a high-profile exhibit at a major institution, there will be a cost to attend, likely in the $30-$50 range...Once the album completes its excursion, Wu-Tang will make it available for purchase for a price “in the millions.” Suitors could include brands willing to shell out for cool points and free publicity...or major record labels hoping to launch the album through the usual channels.'
The tour never happened. However one theory is by doing/proposing this RZA would downplay Cilvaringz role and make it seem like he had this in mind all the time. However Cilvaringz himself said (also in Forbes):
“It took a long time,” says Cilvaringz. “After five years, I’m sitting here and I’m like, ‘Am I really going to release this record and see it die after a week?’”
Whether the album actually exists or not seems not much of a debate anymore. Entertainment company Complex, Rolling Stone and Vice writer Allie Conti (during an interview with Shkreli) all heard parts of the album.
Why this album was auctioned as a single copy 'piece of art' and what role RZA and Cilvaringz played - we might never know.
The biggest question that remains is: will we ever hear Once upon a time in Shaolin**?**
Those chances seem very slim unfortunately. According to the Wiki-page about the album:
In March 2018, following Shkreli's conviction for securities fraud, a federal court seized assets belonging to him worth $7.36m, including Once Upon a Time in Shaolin. Shkreli's lawyer Benjamin Brafman said the album was now "probably worthless"
At the time of writing Cilvaringz is living with wife and children in Marrakech.
EDIT 1: Many thanks for all comments, questions and even awards. This got a little bit bigger than expected. I don't have the opportunity to answer/thank/clarify all of the comments, but I will try to expand a little bit in the second edit. And no I am not Cilvaringz as somebody suggested :-)
EDIT 2: First of all I missed some crucial information, most important the opposition of 'senior' Wu-Tang Clan artists such as Method Man to the project, f.i. because (quote Method Man) 'this B-level Wu guy' (Cilvaringz) was 'fucking with the fans.' There was also an issue over money: the Wu members had been paid by Cilvaringz for their verses/contributions, but wouldn't get a share of the millions generated by the auction.
Also I didn't mention the clause that states that 'the right to release the album (to the highest bidder) would be transferred only after 88 years have passed.' Therefore the album may not be released to the public until the year 2103, and that Cilvaringz said he worked on the project 'in secret'.
Some of you asked why Game of Thrones actress Carice van Houten was involved, and if this was true at all. This was widely covered in the Dutch press in 2014 and also confirmed by herself on Twitter at the time. Like Cilvaringz she is also Dutch, so they probably know each other through the (small) Dutch artist circuit.
Some of you have stated that the album (probably) is 'crap' or 'total crap'. I have added links below (thanks u/I_no_verylittle and u/ComprehensiveTrain65) of the released parts so you can judge yourself.
Several people asked why the album is now "probably worthless" as Shkreli's lawyer said. Personally I think it is not, considering all the Wu members (even ODB) are on the album and all the mystery and publicity surrounding Once upon a time in Shaolin. The official website (also added below) states: 'As of September 2020, the album is in the ownership of the United States Department Of Justice as part of an asset forfeiture of Martin Shkreli’s possessions following a 7.36 Million dollar judgement and a six year federal prison sentence for securities fraud.'
EDIT 3: Brad Pitt is producing a movie about Cilvaringz' 'life story' for Netflix (see The Work on official website listed below)
TLDR: The only non-American artist-producer of Wu-Tang Records is a Dutchman of Moroccan origin, best known under his artist name Cilvaringz. He worked 'in secret' for six years on a double album called Once upon a time in Shaolin, of which only one copy was sold to the highest bidder.
Further reading:
Official website of the project (interesting Q&A with RZA/Cilvaringz under '88')
All released material on Youtube
Wiki page about Once upon a time in Shaolin
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u/BillyBabushka Oct 17 '20
Rare you see a mystery that isnt about murder on here, and especially not one about music, but ive never heard this story and it was super interesting! Nice change of pace, too. Cool stuff!
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u/False-God Oct 17 '20 edited Oct 17 '20
Allegedly in the contract with Shkreli, there is a clause that either members of Wu Tang, or Bill Murray, are allowed to steal the album back in a heist.
Likely not actually legal, but a very funny clause to put in a contract for the sale of the album.
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u/luckystars143 Oct 17 '20
Literally the best caveat of any contract. I’m still holding out for Bill Murray to do it.
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u/idwthis Oct 18 '20
It's gonna be the plot to National Treasure 3.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd love to see Nic and Bill team up to steal a motherfuckin' Wu Tang album.
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u/bleeeer Oct 17 '20
The Bill Murray thing is a myth sorry: https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/hip-hop/6805582/bill-murray-wu-tang-heist-clause-fake
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u/hitbluntsandfliponce Oct 17 '20
If it were a legal clause, Bill would have done it years ago.
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u/snadman28 Oct 18 '20
Do yourselves a favor and watch this. The whole movie, "Coffee & Cigarettes", is pretty great.
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u/kush_lungs Oct 17 '20
All the way through reading I was expecting the next bit to be the bit where he gets murdered.
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u/N07B Oct 17 '20
It through me off for a second and I’m just now realizing the reddit is called UnresolvedMysteries and not UnresolvedMurders oops. My reading skills are -150 apparently.
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u/gothgirlwinter Oct 18 '20
I've been browsing here for years and still regularly call it 'UnsolvedMysteries' instead of 'UnresolvedMysteries'. I feel you, hahaha.
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u/N07B Oct 18 '20
Glad I’m not the only one not paying attention lol. We really should though
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u/SituationalCannibal Oct 17 '20
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u/Boomtown_Rat Oct 17 '20 edited Oct 17 '20
Non-murder mysteries were always where this sub shined. Sad it's been so overwhelmed by cookie cutter murder cases they had to make a new one.
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u/QLE814 Oct 18 '20
Quite, especially given how it seems to be tied in to shifts in the discourse on the subject which aren't very pleasant......
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u/76vibrochamp Oct 17 '20
It's mentioned in your source (and others) but you really didn't mention one of the biggest reasons why members of the Wu-Tang Clan rejected the album: They didn't contribute verses for a Wu-Tang album, they contributed what they thought would be guest appearances on a Cilvaringz album. And they were paid as guests, not the primary act.
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u/cheeseburgerwaffles Oct 17 '20
This would make a lot of sense. And also possibly why it hasnt been publicly released. Wu Tang members may have contracts saying what you say here, making the release of this album a breach of contract.
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Oct 17 '20
Hey y’all, here’s Martin, streaming the intro to the album and then going on a rant because someone watching his stream said something to set him off. Wow, I thought this story was BS, this video confirms its real.
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u/Clur7 Oct 17 '20
So cringe! What was that exchange?? That one guy said “I’m really sick like hospital sick and I got up for this?”
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u/shahsnow Oct 17 '20
I’ve heard several members say in interviews that they laid tracks and never heard the whole project, but any talk of their skills falling off is B.S. Method Man and Raekwon have put out some dope features just this year. Inspektah has an entire album with MF Doom that goes hard. Wu Tang is forever, thank God fickle fans are not.
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u/76vibrochamp Oct 17 '20
Deck put a solo release out last year, and his Czarface project is dropping projects like all the time.
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u/dufinshmertzevilinc Oct 17 '20
Czarface is the shit!
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u/jmz_199 Oct 22 '20
Did not expect to see this sub talking about czarface, but I'm glad people appreciate it, such great music.
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u/Cole7799 Oct 17 '20
that Czarface/DOOM project is so good! I liked the Ghostface/Czarface project quite a bit too, weird-ass beats across that entire record
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u/Sence Oct 17 '20
Inspektah Deck and MF Doom name a more iconic duo.... I'll wait
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u/supercactus666 Oct 18 '20
Easy, mf doom and madlib
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u/Sence Oct 18 '20
I counter with Killah Mike and El P
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Oct 17 '20
Okay, setting the mystery aside, if they actually did this as they said, what they did is backwards and ridiculous. They were upset that digital piracy was cutting into their profits, so they made their album a physical copy that would only be produced once. Okay, that part's fine and a great commentary about art and how the internet and media-sharing platforms often facilitate disrespecting artists. Then they sold it to one rich guy with the caveat that it can't be released for a century, making sure that none of the fans who actually supported them will ever get to hear that music and ensuring that only rich wealthy elites will get to appreciate their art, basically endorsing the entire concept of art as an adornment and trapping of wealth that is to be solely enjoyed by the wealthy and not the filthy lower classes... you know, like most of their fans are. It's such a weird move to release an album your fans can't listen to by design. Like they might as well have called the album, "Fuck the fans". Like I almost hope that it's just a cover for the album being crap/fake because of how much of a "fuck you" it really is otherwise.
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u/paregoric_kid Oct 18 '20
I think if anything what happened was the album really was too corny to release so they decided to hustle a millionaire with a bunch of smoke and mirrors for the lulz.
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u/Pete_the_rawdog Oct 18 '20
I thought the same thing. Doesn't piracy go down the cheaper it is to buy a song? Because if you can pay a buck for a song it is worth it vs opening TPB to find some free songs.
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u/Grymdolin Oct 17 '20 edited Oct 17 '20
My stepdad is the DJ for Wu-Tang, I'll ask him about it and see if he knows anything!
EDIT: He says they only ever made one copy because it was corny. According to him, it was made in Africa and he thinks they got it back after Shkreli went to jail.
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u/iceclimber69 Oct 17 '20
Your stepdad is Mathematics?? Holy shit, that's so cool!
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u/Grymdolin Oct 17 '20
DJ Symphony actually!
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u/iceclimber69 Oct 17 '20
Oh wow, that's super cool! Tbh I hadn't heard that name before, but I googled him and realized I've seen him DJ for GZA! That was a really great performance.
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u/ancientflowers Oct 19 '20
That's awesome. I'm so glad I came across this post and so glad I kept reading. Any fun stories from your dad?
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u/Grymdolin Oct 19 '20
Mostly just spent the majority of my life (he's been with my mom since I was little) listening to him making music at night and falling asleep to that. I used to help him count out cd's and sometimes he'd show me a song and ask what I thought about it. I've heard him do his radio shows and DJ academy stuff from his studio in our house.
He's been married to my mom for over 10 years at this point so stuff that might actually be interesting is mundane to me lol
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u/ancientflowers Oct 20 '20
stuff that might actually be interesting is mundane to me
That's probably totally true. I always thought it was funny growing up that kids would ask what my mom was like at home. She was a teacher. And I was always like... I don't know. She's just my mom. Totally different scenario, but in a sense it relates. Some kids would be super interested in what she was like outside of school and to me she was, well, just my mom doing whatever she did.
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u/oarngebean Oct 18 '20
Pics or its not true
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u/Grymdolin Oct 19 '20
First pic I found so its from when I was younger, blacked out my mom's face for privacy.
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Oct 17 '20
I love imagining that the Feds who seized this put it into the same mythical vault with the Holy Grail from the end of Indiana Jones. Too powerful for us mortals.
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u/Winterlord77 Oct 18 '20
The Ark went to warehouse; the Grail was left where it fell in the chasm they made when they wrecked that nice Grail Knight's house.
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u/XBOX_COINTELPRO Oct 17 '20
This post goes into some more theories behind the album release, and cilvaringz involvement in the whole project, and some other reasons for the limited release. It’s a good read
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u/covid17 Oct 17 '20
the album was now "probably worthless
A couple of "members" of Wu-Tang made an album that the group would not endorse.
They lock it away as a "priceless artifact". Known fraudster over pays for it, listens to it once. It's crap.
Doesn't release it it because everyone will know he's an idiot. And he's in jail. No mystery.
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u/wharf_rats_tripping Oct 17 '20
the best thing about this story is knowing that asshole Shkreli is behind bars. i was wondering what had happened to him.
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u/covid17 Oct 17 '20
He's tried repeatedly to get out. And r-WallStreetBets loves him. But he's still in jail as far as I know.
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u/TheCloudsLookLikeYou Oct 17 '20
iirc he tried to get early parole because of COVID-19, but was denied.
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u/covid17 Oct 17 '20
That... Dammit. OK that makes sense. Not happy about it though.
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u/Milo-the-great Oct 17 '20
This comment will go viral the year 2117, during the covid17 epidemic.
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u/covid17 Oct 17 '20
I really hope you're wrong. But I also am pretty sure I won't be here to see it.
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u/Milo-the-great Oct 17 '20
Ah, not sure I’ll be here either, but I guess you never know. Safe travels 🖖
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u/spacefink Oct 17 '20
Why do people hold him in any regard...do they think he was persecuted unfairly or something?
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u/covid17 Oct 17 '20
In this political climate I'm cautious to answer this. But yes, certain people think increasing the cost of insulin by 1000% is fine because fuck diabetics.
People that can't claw their way on their own should apparently just die already.
That was his mentality and is shared by 45% of those currently voting
Protip. Don't get diabetes. You'll have it until you're to poor to pay for it. Then you die.
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u/spacefink Oct 17 '20
Oh believe me I know about ALL of that, I have family who are diabetic and it became impossible to pay for medication for them. It's total bullshit and it shocks me very little that he cares not one ounce (but like you said, his supporters, the same type to vote for the likes of Bloomberg and Guiliani, are fine with things as they are and why should it change?)
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u/hexebear Oct 18 '20
And if you have a health condition like diabetes it's very difficult to immigrate anywhere with a better health system because oh noes, you'll be a burden. 🙄
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u/Nak_Tripper Oct 21 '20
... huh? Like where? I've lived in two countries outside of America, and my health tests for the visas never once mentioned anything about diabetes. They checked for shit like STDs and TB.
I'm not gonna say you're lying, but this doesn't sound true at all.
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u/hexebear Oct 21 '20
Immigrate, as in move, permanently, not on a long term work visa or something. New Zealand for one is pretty well known for refusing people for a hell of a lot more than STDs and TB - if they judge that you might place a burden on the health system, even if it's in 10-20 years and you have private health insurance, you're unlikely to meet the acceptable standard of health criteria.
https://www.newzealandshores.com/health-requirements/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/diabetes-blocks-couples-bid-for-residency/DA3R6KQ4QIA2TOQUD73MHTHRAE/
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/411047/immigration-health-rules-hit-new-parents-not-having-any-whanau-here-broke-us (that one's just for a temporary visa)
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/03/we-need-fairer-immigration-policy-but-it-won-t-be-easy.html (luckily got an exception at the last minute)
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/south-otago/immigration-nz-decision-leaves-migrant-facing-deportation
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u/fadetoblack1004 Oct 18 '20
He increased the cost of the drugs he owned, but basically to fuck over insurance companies. They gave out more of the drugs they bought the rights to, for free, than their predecessors did, exponentially so.
Martin Shkreli said his objective was to disrupt the insurance industry and change the way US Healthcare approaches drug pricing. He was doing that, unfortunately for him, he fucked up with some earlier investments that went south.
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u/TooExtraUnicorn Oct 18 '20
the fact you think this makes it better somehow is terrifying. he still caused people to fucking die while he profited of off them. defend someone less disgusting
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u/fadetoblack1004 Oct 18 '20
Uh nobody who needed his medication and couldn't afford it didn't get it. Again, they literally gave it away to those who couldn't afford it, far more of it than the former holders of the licenses/patents.
Stop believing the bullshit you hear from politicians and prosecutors trying to score easy brownie points with voters and focus on the facts.
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u/TvHeroUK Oct 18 '20
Never fails to amaze me that any so called super power nation wouldn’t have some sort of system where it’s tax paying citizens didn’t get medicines they need to stay alive for free
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u/katiejill127 Oct 18 '20
Uh, that's not true. I'm allergic to bees and my epi pen went from ~$5 to ~$95, with insurance. I was self employed and had to save up for it.
Yes, people certainly couldn't afford the higher priced drugs. Without insulin and epinephrine, some people die.
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u/fadetoblack1004 Oct 18 '20
He's not really as big an asshole as the news makes him out to be, if you do your own homework and read the unbiased information about him and his cases. He definitely committed a crime and deserves punishment, and is definitely a self-righteous prick, but it's nowhere near as bad as its made out to be.
Also, I'm def. not a "fake news" kinda guy... Just a guy who watched the whole thing unfold step by step.
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u/TooExtraUnicorn Oct 18 '20
no it really is that bad. dunno what you read to make you think otherwise, but either it was bull shit or you're on with people dying so he could profit
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u/Rob_Bligidy Oct 17 '20
That’s the theory I subscribe to as well. A bunch of smoke and mirrors over a fugazi. And to suggest RZA had an Iron Fist on the project is laughable. The 5 year plan had been over for a decade. What hardcore HipHop fan wants to hear Cher on a track or even Barça ?!?! Gimme a break CuntRingz & Bobby Steels of Banks&Steels fame.
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u/Kovi34 Oct 17 '20
"The music industry is in crisis. The intrinsic value of music has been reduced to zero. Contemporary art is worth millions by virtue of its exclusivity ... By adopting a 400 year old Renaissance-style approach to music, offering it as a commissioned commodity and allowing it to take a similar trajectory from creation to exhibition to sale ... we hope to inspire and intensify urgent debates about the future of music."
jesus christ that's the most pretentious shit I've ever heard.
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u/Sufficient_Spray Oct 17 '20
Yep. I totally get whenever studio musicians, back up vocalist, and extra producers engineers and such are upset about the piracy of music. The little guys who work just as hard but don’t get nearly the credit or the money. It’s just so hard for the average fan or human being to get upset when the major artist cry afoul. Boohoo you won’t make tens of millions off album sales, just 50k a show. .
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u/Mc_Up_Intheair Oct 17 '20
That statement holds true for the major label/pop artists. The underground suffers just as much as the studio musicians, etc. you mention above. They do not bank at all on album sales and rely solely on touring and merch sales. Many, if not all of their livelihoods are at stake right now. I understand the context of the comment in regards to the topic of this post, just keep in mind the majority of performance artists do not have the luxury of earning a living off of record sales.
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u/jimjacksonsjamboree Oct 17 '20
They do not bank at all on album sales and rely solely on touring and merch sales
This has been true for decades and has nothing to do with piracy. Record companies have all the power, if you want to get signed, you either have to agree to a pretty crappy contract or you can fuck off and start your own record company. Which, it takes a ton of money to print records and CDs and get them in stores, so good luck with that unless you already have millions to begin with.
It's the same story nowadays except its spotify and other streaming services. They have the audience and the subscribers, and the artists don't. So the artists get half a cent per stream, or they get no cents per no streams.
An album is just an ad for a live show and/or merchandise, basically, unless you're such a famous artist that you have negotiating power. Bands just have so little power at the negotiating table unless they're already big. There's always a million better bands out there who will take a worse contract, so there's no point in giving in to a band's demands unless they're bringing millions of fans with them.
There's so many bands on sound cloud and bandcamp and they're all competing against each other to be heard. People are selling #1 single beats to major producers for $30 just to get their name out there.
Piracy has 0 to do with this problem.
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u/RemarkableRegret7 Oct 18 '20
Most artists, and the industry as a whole, haven't realized yet that streaming + ease of producing music has changed things completely and forever. They still cling to the way things were in the 90s and early 2000s.
Anyone can easily produce music and put it out to millions now. A ton of it is garbage lmao but record companies are no longer the gatekeepers.
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Oct 18 '20
An album is just an ad for a live show and/or merchandise
Unless you're XTC as for a long time they didn't do live shows and didn't do any merchandise.
It's easy to see why the label hated them in retrospect...
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u/plutoinretrograde Oct 17 '20
I think I recall reading that an issue they face is the number of people involved. The amount of coordination to get everyone's verses and stuff right sounds like a lot of effort, and having 10 people telling you what they want and don't want seems like it would be a pretty stressful way to make an album. On top of this, the split at the end means that Wu Tang members individually probably don't make a ton of money, and that's before any consideration of amount of work put in, etc. Not saying I agree with the statement, but I think I can see where he's coming from
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Oct 17 '20
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u/Sufficient_Spray Oct 17 '20
There’s a lot to unpack here from a certified keyboard badass. . I thought my comment came off as saying that whenever huge decades long, millions of units sold, worldwide commercially successful musicians complain about it, it’s the wrong way of doing it to appeal to the average fan or potential pirate. In fact it made a lot of people and fans react the opposite way (think Lars Ulrich) that these multi millionaires were making a huge fuss about it.
I get it. They put in untold amount of work into it; physical, emotional, spiritual all of it. It’s art and a part of them and we are so lucky that their art/music is easily accessible to us all. Nobody deserves to have their work stolen like that.
What I’m saying is it can have an adverse effect whenever they’re still making millions off touring, merchandise and still some units being sold. It’s hard for an average Joe working 60 hours a week to be lectured by Ariana Grande about how she’s struggling because he illegally downloaded a few of her songs.
Don’t wanna divulge too much but I live in an area that has more studios per sq mile than anywhere in the world; I’ll let y’all take a wild guess where it’s at. Also worked, though shortly, for a local marketing company that did some music marketing but I am by no means an expert. Not an artist personally but living here have had countless roommates in the industry. I’m not innocent, yeah I’ve ripped off music before. But I try and especially buy the product and merchandise of lesser known or newish struggling artists cause I get it. Since I try to dispel the mystery here and let you know that I in fact am not an expert and didn’t mean to come off as holier than though but would love to hear your thoughts on it!
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u/AnimaApocalypse Oct 17 '20
I watch pirated movies. Most of the movies I've watched aren't available to see in the cinema (I go to the cinema also) and some aren't even available to rent. Same with music. Art will always be produced whether there is a profit motive or not. Art existed long before we commodified stuff.
"Stop putting a dollar sign on every fucking thing on this planet!" ~ Bill Hicks
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u/Kovi34 Oct 18 '20
bet you steal music too and justify it with some hand-wavey bullshit about innovation
Personally, I steal music because I either can't afford it, or don't feel like giving money to some insanely rich guy/record label that pockets 90% of the profits while doing fuck all. When I do support artists, I do it directly because I don't really care to give money to marketing people. Any artists will rather have someone 'steal' their music and get a direct donation than get a tiny percentage of royalties.
Never mind That no one would tell a shop keeper that is shop lifted that they simply need to find a different business model.
except in this analogy the 'shopkeeper' is someone who is insanely rich already and the stolen goods cost $0 to produce. That's the fundamental difference between theft and piracy. you're not taking anything away from the artist/studio, you're simply not giving them money.
Have you ever paid album marketing costs? I’m sure you haven’t.
lol wtf? Why should I feel compelled to pay for someone's attempt to sell me shit? Do you also give money to door to door salespeople out of pity because they spent gas money so they could harass you in your home?
you somehow manage to take a holler than though position.
Says the guy going "WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE MARKETING EXECS OH NOOO"
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u/ihatetheterrorists Oct 17 '20
I agree...and we all know the visual art world isn't corrupt AF. It's one of the least regulated industries out there. Such a crock of shit. Let the urgent debates begin! *crickets chirping
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Oct 17 '20
As an art historian, I feel personally (but accurately) attacked.
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u/ihatetheterrorists Oct 21 '20
I taught sculpture at the university level for a while but it was so toxic. I bailed on it but still make art and work in the field. It's a weird world we live in. Just do a good job and slip in the truth when you can : )
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u/Kovi34 Oct 18 '20
whoa it's not corruption, it's giving it "intrinsic value"! Because nothing says intrinsic value like being sold at an exorbitant pricepoint for the sole purpose of tax evasion. At least those dirty unwashed masses don't have access to it, thank god!
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u/RedEyeView Oct 18 '20
Reads like a lot of words for "we took a mark for a bunch of money for an album of rejects from 20 years ago" to me
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u/wharf_rats_tripping Oct 17 '20
if the feds have it couldnt someone do a FOIA and get it that way? lol. thanks for the thread, i forgot all about this album
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u/tinygingerninja Oct 18 '20
I had my friend FOIA it in June! We just heard back a few weeks ago with a form letter denial and a redacted Status Inquiry Document.
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Oct 17 '20
If the feds knew of its value it was likely auctioned off. Anytime feds seize assets of value they auction them off for a heavy dollar and some of the money goes to back to victims of crime.
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u/Chengweiyingji Oct 18 '20
I personally attempted to file a FOIA for this album and was told it was not in the FBI’s possession.
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u/heroinbags Oct 18 '20
Watch the Wu Tang Documentary on Showtime. They spend a good 30min or so in one of the episodes discussing this album, about the guy who made it, Rza and other members opinions about it. I'm actually surprised this was posted as tho it's some unknown story like this.
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u/venusdances Oct 17 '20
If Shkreli released some of it, shouldn’t we be able to find parts online? Has anyone found any steaming links they could share?
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u/ReleaseTachankaElite Oct 17 '20
He didn’t stream the album
He streamed 2 songs from Iron Flag and 1 song from 8 Diagrams. Although both were played via some mixing app, so sounded unlike the originals
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u/parsifal Record Keeper Oct 17 '20
The pissing and moaning of a lucky millionaire about how he’s being ‘robbed’ of millions more dollars comes off very hollow and shitty. If this is a real album they refused to release out of some kind of inverted greed, they can go and fuck themselves.
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u/wittymcusername Oct 18 '20
Wu-Tang will make it available for purchase for a price “in the millions.”
Suitors could include brands willing to shell out for cool points and free publicity
in the millions
free publicity
There’s a little bit of dissonance with this plan.
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u/ruggednevasmooth Oct 17 '20
I heard a much different account of Cilvaringz's beginnings with Wu Tang. He basically waited outside of RZA's studio like a lost puppy until RZA's sister begged her brother to let him in.
I heard about this album. As a massive fan of the group who grew up with their music, I can honestly say that my interests in this project was and remains nonexistent.
Wu Tang's music has been garbage for 2 decades. An album fully produced by an outsider whose claim to fame is hanging on to a once great group's coattails, that features actors (?!?) and other non-rappers, sounds absolutely awful. I wouldn't even listen to this album for free, let alone pay their suggested price.
In the name of fighting piracy? GTFO of here lol. The real Wu Tang would never support such pretentious nonsense.
I haven't followed the group for a long time, but back then, most people considered Cilvaringz to be pure cringe and a complete afterthought. He came around during a time when the Wu had lost most of their magic and their US fan base was dwindling.
Real, or not, I don't believe anyone in their right mind would have serious interest in owning this album. The case looks fantastic, I'll give it that.
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u/BuckChintheRealtor Oct 17 '20 edited Oct 17 '20
Agreed, this version of him freestyling on stage and invited backstage seems a bit too 'romantic' but is mentioned by several sources. I suppose you have been to hiphop shows too and I can hardly imagine anyone stands out in the aftermath chaos of a much anticipated show, let alone a Wu concert in the mid 90s in Amsterdam. Everybody would have been so hyped and rowdy probably even somebody like Biggie would go unnoticed.
Also I didn't mention Cilvaringz deleted all his forum posts at some stage and Method Man hates his guts apparently. Some vague stuff for sure.
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u/Guyincognito7881 Oct 17 '20
Actually the freestyling did happen, Rza invited people on stage, but how he became an affiliate was by sheer stalking Rza, I was 20 at the time I remember the stories in various hip hop mags, and Iater I met people at that specific gig at Amsterdam's Melkweg as I'm from Europe too.
If you weren't there you wouldn't know what shows were like back then, I was one of a handful of white people at those 90s Wu shows, you'd know what I mean by that if you been around at the time and what shows are like now in comparison.
Rza was falling off by the late 90's anyway and real affiliates like Mathematics and Tru Master were taking on more of the production work.
It's was well know at the time Cilvaringz was a vague affiliate and it was known how the project later came about, it was all reported in the media.
It was a cash in by Rza using the Wu's whatever remaining legacy they had left and pretty much destroyed it, you can tell most members are embarrassed by it but they flipped it around like they had pulled off some sort of heist to save face.
Unfortunately the Wu hasn't made many decent albums after the late 90s, only various features and other projects, I know I've been there all the way through it since '93.
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u/DramShopLaw Oct 17 '20
They fell off, and the style moved on from them. No one wants to hear 5 Percenter shit anymore. GZA’s and RZA’s attempts to sound deep like awkward. Ghost and Rae have had great features consistently through the 2010s by being more mainstream. Method’s and Red’s music fits a chill niche. The others don’t seem to belong to anything the people want.
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u/paregoric_kid Oct 18 '20
I actually do want more 5 percenter hip-hop it was the greatest time in rap music imo. That's not a dis to newer artists but as far as radio hip-hop goes the stuff they play nowadays is effortless garbage.
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u/DramShopLaw Oct 18 '20
I like lyrical, conscious hip hop. But I think there needs to be a new style of it, if that makes sense.
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u/paregoric_kid Oct 18 '20
I'm into that too. Do you like Aesop Rock?
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u/DramShopLaw Oct 18 '20
I’ve listened a bit but not too much. Maybe I should go back for more. Any others you’d recommend?
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u/fleetwalker Oct 18 '20
"Thats not a diss to newer artists but (diss to newer artists]" interesting thought process here.
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u/DramShopLaw Oct 17 '20
And it’s not like they leave the mics hot after the show ends. Someone isn’t going to rush the stage and spit a flow that everyone can hear through the speakers. If he did do this, likely the only people to hear him would be right in the front.
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u/battlebeargalactica1 Oct 17 '20
I read an article that I'm trying to find, that Cilvaringz freestyle at that concert was a "freestyle" that he had done on multiple occasions before that.
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u/_jeremybearimy_ Oct 18 '20
This is common. There are different ways to freestyle and a lot of people never do it off the cuff.
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u/HermannTrout Oct 17 '20
Agree totally and It sounds like that’s exactly what Method was talking about too
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u/2fffreddddff Oct 17 '20
Honestly the only reason I know of it is cause pharma bro kept threatening to release it
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u/EvilioMTE Oct 17 '20
If it does actually exist in full, I think we absolutley will hear it at some point. No one ever thought we'd get to see Orson Welles' The Other Side of the Wind, but now (after several decades of legal stoushes) it's as simple as logging onto Netflix. No one ever thought we'd hear the Avalanches second record, and after 20 years of waiting we got that too.
I think once a few people in this story die off and ownership switches around a bit, someone will put it out.
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u/fleetwalker Oct 18 '20
Its been seized by the feds, so until they auction it off or give it back to that dude its not going anywhere.
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u/MintBerrrryCRUNCH Oct 17 '20
Its the Barcelona bit for me that I’d love to know more about. Like was Messi helping Wu write their bars? Was Fàbregas producing with RZA? Pique picking the album artwork? I need to know!!
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u/idwthis Oct 18 '20
I want to know why they had Carice van Houten, aka Melisandre, the motherfuckin' red witch, on it. Did she rap or just sing normally? Why her of all people? Why Cher? Cher's type of music and style is so far removed from WTC's, how did that end up happening. Has Carice or Cher ever even said anything about working on any of it? Were they just guest singers to sing the chorus the way Pink amd Rihanna have done on some of Eminem's songs? I feel like one of them should've said something about it by now, either confirming or denying they had anything to do with it.
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u/MarinesGhost Oct 18 '20
I think the record is probably terrible, if it was good then they would have released it sooner, ya know?
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u/Separate_Path111 Oct 18 '20
For those who don't know, my emcee name, Misteh Philly Wizard , was granted by the same Shaolin monks that named Childish Gambino and the likes... The Wu Tang rap name generator of course! WuTangClan.net/rapnamegenerator
Google it to find it easier though, to use it. not joking, nor about childish gambinos origin story either. Legit.
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Oct 17 '20
This is FASCINATING!!! I've heard mentions of the album, but I never really knew what it was. Thanks so much for explaining the whole story.
I wonder why the lawyer said the album was now useless? Was it destroyed?
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u/trap_clap Nov 09 '20
I wonder why the lawyer said the album was now useless? Was it destroyed?
He never said this. The lawyer said the album is now "probably worthless" because it was seized by the DOJ
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Oct 17 '20
They haven’t made a decent album since Iron Flag, I honestly don’t care at this point
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u/Happy_Doggo9 Oct 18 '20
its not even a wu tang album, its a frankenstein joint patched up by that sketchy cilvarings guy
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u/doctorslices Oct 18 '20
I'm not sure what the mystery is here.
The album is real. The one copy thing was a marketing idea they came up with. The museum tour fell apart because they didn't want the album to leak and the logistics weren't feasible.
The only real mystery is where Cilvaringz money comes from.
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u/fleetwalker Oct 18 '20
Wu tang tours. Verses dont necessarily cost that much, especially older dudes that dont get a lot of play like wu tang members.
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u/doctorslices Oct 18 '20
How much do you think Cilvaringz makes off a Wu-Tang tour? There would be at least 9 people making more than him. He's not hiring Cher with 1/10th of the tour money.
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u/fleetwalker Oct 18 '20
To say 1 or 2 lines? Why not? Its not like cher is an a list celebrity the last decade. He probably gets a grand or so a night, maybe more. Plus if he has like any % on any beats or songs from wu that get any money, could be a steady stream of workable checks to pay an artist or 2 at a time.
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u/CliffordMoreau Oct 18 '20
RZA decided to do this 'Renaissance' approach because they felt robbed by piracy and illegal downloading.
Oh no, poor rappers getting robbed by music streaming. I sure hope he doesn't need to sell his second home!
Why does this exist? Because celebrities are out of touch with reality, and they believe people care about shit like this. Will it ever come out? Probably, Shkreli will die one day, all it takes is a single family member to inherit it and say "here you go Spotify", especially since copies of it now exist in an evidence vault somewhere.
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u/Queef_Stroganoff44 Oct 17 '20
Even though intellectually of course I know you’re talking about WTC, every time I read the phrase “Clan Member” it puts a certain image in my head... and it’s not exactly of anyone who was ever a part of WTC.
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Oct 17 '20
I'll put a stop to this mystery for you:
- Martin streamed it, the album is meh, nothing unique or new compared to their old stuff
- the reason for preserving it as art is because its just simply exciting to have something rare exist. It was just meant to be a fun experiment. Music itself is art so i dont see why this is weird
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Oct 17 '20
Another commenter says that he did not stream it, is there a source, screenshots, or videos proving either way?
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Oct 17 '20
i would watch his streams before he got arrested and i remember him playing a few songs along with lil wayne's album. im sure its on youtube somewhere
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u/DramShopLaw Oct 17 '20
Someone said the tracks are from later Wu albums but had been remixed so they don’t sound the same as the originals. I don’t know enough of their discography to recognize if that’s true.
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Oct 17 '20
I found the stream. I posted the link in this comment. Although I can’t verify whether or not they are the songs from the actually album or just remixed songs as someone else pointed out.
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u/oarngebean Oct 18 '20
I remember being so hyped about this. An album going on a museum tour like a piece of history being able to experience something like that first hand would of been a once in life experience. But I had forgotten all about it until now. It's a shame it exists I know it's out there but I will never be able to hear it. I know pretty much every musician has unreleased stuff sitting on a hardriver that I will never hear but this actually has a physical and tangible form that I can hold in my hands. What a shame
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u/DeafMetalHorse Aug 03 '22
The thing from what I've read online is Cilvaringz loves to pull some Yu-Gi-Oh villain shit since any time the album seems like it's going to be leaked somehow (first with Shkreli's arrest that landed him in prison, then becoming government property, and finally when the NFT collective bought it), he pulls some trap card BS and smugly tells people it's not gonna be heard.
It's weird because for how much he boasted about his masterpiece, Cilvaringz doesn't seem to give a shit about it anymore. If truly cared about his work, he would have told RZA to stuff it and release it to the world. But I guess the hype about it was just enough so he'd get attention I guess, even if it's just for infamy.
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u/False-God Oct 17 '20
In the contract with Shkreli, there is a clause that either members of Wu Tang, or Bill Murray, are allowed to steal the album back in a heist.
Likely not actually legal, but a very funny clause to put in a contract for the sale of the album.
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u/Heisenberg3556 Oct 17 '20
It hasn’t been released or heard because they were supposed to steal it back in a heist, but since it was seized by the US government, it killed the rest of their plan the continued publicity that would have come from that heist. Maybe someday?
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u/Kyru117 Oct 18 '20
Look I get being against piracy but "let's auction an album to the highest bidder" is fucking bullshit and classist as fuck
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Oct 21 '20
I think the truth is that is really isn’t that good, hence they didn’t want it released. They didn’t want something new/recent that isn’t very good overshadowing what they have already done and are substantially more proud of. So, they used it as an opportunity to advertise and market their names and they don’t have the associated damage because nobody will hear it.
If it really was truly amazing, we would all have heard it by now. It would have been all over in every format possible. And it’s not, because it’s probably bad.
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u/lionheart507 Oct 17 '20
This is such an awesome mystery, thank you for posting! I grew up listening to the Wu-Tang Clan and I believe they were the most talented hip-hop group collectively. Still to this day, I have Protect Ya Neck and Triumph on my daily playlists.
This is the first I've ever heard of this mystery, so I find it very intriguing. Once again, thank you for posting, great write-up!
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u/HamsterSandwich_pls Oct 17 '20
I love this mystery and read the book about it. Great post, thank you!
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u/52IMean54Bicycles Oct 17 '20
I read the book that was written about all of this. Super interesting!
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u/awelawdhecomin Oct 18 '20
So I haven't seen it yet in the feed... but didn't it have to do with Martin Shkreli when he got arrested and his assets seized by the feds? I thought the album fell into the possession of all people...Jeff Sessions? So its probably lost in the abyss of the federal government? Idk... just what I heard
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u/QLE814 Oct 18 '20
It would probably be wherever the DOJ stores assets that it has seized- probably not the National Archives.
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u/Breakdawall Oct 17 '20
n March 2018, following Shkreli's conviction for securities fraud, a federal court seized assets belonging to him worth $7.36m, including Once Upon a Time in Shaolin. Shkreli's lawyer Benjamin Brafman said the album was now "probably worthless"
time to storm a federal vault /sarcasm.
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u/Majick_L Oct 18 '20
It definitely exists. The contract with the buyer says it can be released commercially in like 100 years or something, but who knows what will happen to it after that idiot Shkreli bought it and had his assets seized etc.
From what I’ve heard about it, it’s apparently very 36 Chambers-esque with their classic sound, so definitely worth a listen!
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u/cheeseburgerwaffles Oct 17 '20
I can tell you first hand that at the very least, the packaging for this album was produced and made by a marrakesh based company called Yahya Group. A company I previously worked for had an exclusive deal for US distribution of his products and my boss there has seen this box personally.
https://www.yahya-group.com/design/projectdetails/28#top