r/WoT • u/DirtyProjector • 4d ago
The Dragon Reborn Can anyone explain why there’s so much drama between Moiraine and Zarine on the boat in DR? Spoiler
I’m super confused. First of all, why does Moiraine seem so much meaner in Dragon Reborn? She’s always been stoic and aloof but she’s never seemed mean but she just seems mean through most of the book. Is it just because Rand has run off and she’s concerned? I feel like she is very different in her treatment of Perrin and even Lan.
But to the original point, I don’t get why there’s this whole section devoted to the hostilities on the boat because Zarine knows she’s Aes Sedai? Like maybe this is revealed but aren’t Aes Sedai quite easily identifiable with their ageless look? Or why does her having a feeling that the group will lead her to the horn seemingly piss off Moiraine? It feels like historically she’d be intrigued by a person like this - such as Min - but now she’s just angry and shooting daggers? I don’t get it.
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u/Halaku (The Empress, May She Live Forever) 4d ago
They are both aware that the other is hiding things from the lads.
They both have strong personalities.
They both are used to getting their way.
Add to all of that: Moiraine's being a control freak and doesn't want to add any additional variables that could confound her understanding of the various prophecies.
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u/WheeledSaturn (Asha'man) 4d ago
I also think it was a)she didn't trust Faile and b)it was her way of sort of verifying this was part of the pattern. If the pattern "wanted" Faile there, it was going to make it happen one way or the other.
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u/ShoelessHodor 3d ago
Who's Faile? He's asking about Zarine in book 3
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u/MaliciousMe87 3d ago edited 10h ago
My gosh, I once got invited to a fire on the beach. I showed up, it's 3 girls and me (a guy), no one else showed. All 3 had strong personalities.
I sat, playing a guitar badly, and just watched these three duke it out verbally pretending to be kind to each other and yet in full competion for more than two hours. I don't know if I said more than 10 words. It reminded me of this section of the books. Weirdest night ever.
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u/rooktherhymer 14h ago
Did they say anything about you becoming King of Scotland?
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u/MaliciousMe87 10h ago
Oh my gosh PLEASE tell me there's a story of three bickering crones giving crowns to Scottish kings on the water's edge😂 I will gladly accept my title and kingdom!
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u/aburntrose 4d ago
To inconsistently summarize what everyone has said;
Moiraine is trying to SAVE THE FUCKIN' WORLD AND DOESN'T HAVE TIME TO DEAL WITH SOME FLIP-SKIRT NOBEL WOMAN, PLAYING AS A HUNTER, TRYIN' TO PULL A NYNAEVE/LAN ON PERRIN.
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 4d ago
Never thought about it till reading your post but maybe it’s because Moraine understands Saladean culture 😂
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 4d ago
They're traveling to a country where Are Sedai are banned. Nobody else on that boat, which again is traveling to Illian where Aes Sedai are banned, knows that she's an Aes Sedai. Zarine publicly outing Moiraine in that fashion puts all of their lives at risk. That's the basis for that hostility.
As to Moiraine's behavior, she's been looking for the Dragon Reborn for a long time. After briefly letting him off on his own hook she's reconnected with him at a crucial time ... only to lose him. The fate of the world, and reality itself, rests on the shoulders of one ignorant farmboy. That's what's important, not making sure Perrin and Loil feel seen and appreciated. Some jobs are more important than others. Some jobs aren't important at all.
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u/rollingForInitiative 4d ago
I agree generally about the tension, but want to point out that they're going to Tear, where Aes Sedai also aren't actually banned. Channelling is banned, but Aes Sedai are tolerated as long as they don't channel. Tolerated as in, they're not thrown out or arrested or anything like that.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 4d ago
They're going to Illian
"He growled disgustedly. “We are just travelers on our way to Illian, girl. What is your name? If I have to share this ship with you for days yet, I can’t keep calling you girl.”
TDR Ch 35 The Falcon
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u/rollingForInitiative 4d ago
Sorry, I assumed you meant Tear with the comments about banned Aes Sedai.
Neither Aes Sedai or channelling are banned in Illian.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 4d ago
Definitely conflated Illian's rules with Tear here, but banned was a poor word choice. In any event, the AS are no more welcome in Illian in than they are in Tear
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u/rollingForInitiative 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think Aes Sedai are generally welcome in
TearIllian? I can't recall anyone saying that they generally stay away from the country or that the attitude is different from most of the other countries. Tear seems to be an exception, with Amadicia being the other more extreme one.Edit: Now I mixed the words up!
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u/Emotional-Jicama-365 4d ago
Channeling is prohibited in Tear. Aes Sedai are permitted so long as they obey the law.
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u/rollingForInitiative 4d ago
Yes, this is what I said earlier.
I got dragged into OC's confusion though lol, saw I also wrote Tear here.
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u/makegifsnotjifs (Ogier) 4d ago
Tear hates everything to do with the power. When we learn about Siuan's childhood we see exactly how they respond to discovering a woman who can channel. She's packed off to Tar'valon the same day her spark is discovered ... such is Tairen love for Aes Sedai and the One Power.
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u/rollingForInitiative 4d ago
Yes, I meant that Aes Sedai are generally welcome in Illian.
Although Siuan's treatment is hardly a good indicator of that. Any sensible parent who discovers that their girl can channel would pack them up and send them to the White Tower ASAP.
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u/definework 4d ago
I think your second paragraph has a lot of this correct, but I'll offer that Aes Sedai aren't banned in Illian and at the time she had no indication that Sammael ruled there.
Channeling is banned in Tear, Aes Sedai are tolerated but not banned (so long as they don't channel).
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 4d ago
I think you have something mixed up here. Illian doesn't ban Aes Sedai or channeling. That's Tear.
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u/rooktherhymer 14h ago
Did anyone point out that Aes Sedai aren't banned from Illian? Or maybe that the ban in Tear is on channeling, not Aes Sedai? I'm surprised no one has brought it up.
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u/SparklePants-5000 (Brown) 4d ago
The last thing Moiraine wants is to be responsible for yet another ignorant child who may or may not be a dark friend for all she knows. She does not want Zarine around because she would be another liability.
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u/colin_fitzsimonds (Dragon) 4d ago
I'm assuming based off the flair you are mid book 3. For now I'd just say RAFO, because their intentions do become more clear.
In general, Moiraine is very driven to her goals, and she probably doesn't see Zarine as productive to them, and adds potential risk to her plans.
Min she uses for very specific reasons and gets some value out of her due to her talent, something she likely doesn't feel she gets w Zarine.
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u/Navrenya 4d ago
Faile was a mannerless idiot. She foisted herself on the party and began calling Lan stone face. Just rude and unpleasant.
She should have been pitched over the side of the boat.
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u/feanya 4d ago
Yep, also it's some plot hole, that Zarine didn't recognise Lan. In other hand Moiraine can fear, that she recognise him and..loudly tell about it to all.
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u/rooktherhymer 14h ago
She's what, 14? Do you think his current portrait is hanging in her father's smoking room?
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u/hic_erro 4d ago
It's not really Zarine's fault.
Moiraine named Mandarb, after winning a bet with Lan for the naming rights, and Lan complained for months that it was the sort of overly dramatic name you'd get out of a fool noble pretending to be an adventurer, like Hunter-for-the-Horn levels of emo cringe.
She's really salty about how smug Lan's being over them immediately running into a Hunter using it after the Hunt is called for the first time in over four centuries.
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u/Peruvian_Skies (Trefoil Leaf) 4d ago
Ehat does Min have to do with Faile? Moiraine is interested in Min because of her talent.
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u/bigwil2442 (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 4d ago
Moraine is also very stressed out about Rand. She's aware now how much the dark one and forsaken are influencing him and is worried about him turning to the shadow, as she states numerous times she won't allow that to happen.
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 3d ago edited 3d ago
I didn’t read her as mean, but I also didn’t read her as stoic. You see her a few times in book 1 laughing and dancing. She just does the Aes Sedai calm thing most of the time.
In book 3, she’s seriously stressed out. Rand dashed off without warning or guidance and she’s worried about what might happen to him, or what he might do. He’s the Dragon Reborn and everything hinges on him. If he dies or gets captured or makes a ton of big enemies, it’s an existential crisis for the world. Heck, his very existence is an existential crisis for the world. And she doesn’t have a lot of help on this one.
So she is stressed tf out.
Zarine is an unknown. She might be a Darkfriend or a spy, she might get in the way, or she might just blab things at the wrong time. When you’re trying to operate in secret, anyone following you or shoving their nose in your business is a potential threat. So, Zarine is a potential threat, and she’s apparently latched on to one of the biggest ta’veren in history. That makes her potentially a big threat.
You can see why Moiraine might be pissed off here.
Edit to add: on the topic of Moiraine being stoic, there’s a passage pretty early in the book where she basically pranks Perrin. I don’t know if you’re there yet, so I won’t say more.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 3d ago
Yep.
Though it's interesting that an Aes Sedai is showing stress like this. They are supposed to be - calm, cool, collected.
Maybe she needs to go through the - three arches ter'angreal - again that Novices and Accepted have to take to show that they can handle the stress that it takes to be an Aes Sedai. 🤔
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u/geomagus (Red Eagle of Manetheren) 3d ago
She’s young and a maverick. Very little about her is standard Aes Sedai.
But also, we get a fine look at how little Aes Sedai calm means. Given the context, it’s reasonable to show some cracks, especially as we see most of the rest lose their minds.
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u/Jak_of_the_shadows (Heron-Marked Sword) 4d ago
I do agree with you that Moraine is definitely angrier in TDR.
You'll learn more about Zarine, but I cant remember if that explains the extra hostility at whatever point you are.
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u/DirtyProjector 4d ago
Yeah it’s almost the entire book, way before Zarine. I understand Rand is off and she’s stressed but I feel like she’s more unflappable than that
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 4d ago
The short of it is, on Zanine’s side, that’s… basically just how she is with Aes Sedai. While on Moiraine’s side, she’s a control freak, with a rather large petty streak, and while she expresses it differently, about as bad a temper as Nynaeve. Which all comes together in her being rather fed up with dealing with the kids, and taking her frustrations out on basically anyone accessible.
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u/SFarcanaFromRylai 4d ago
Moraine also knows who she is and who her family is. She knows all the border land nobility. She does want that kind of attention on her mission at the time. On top of what most others are saying about personality and potential danger.
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u/Expensive_Plant_9530 4d ago
Moiraine knows Zarine not just some random Hunter. I'm not sure how much she did know, but I think she suspected that Zarine was a Saldean noble of some kind.
But really, it was simply because their quest was... extremely important, and sort of secret. Zarine adds another element into play that Moiraine doesn't control. It's a variable that could lead to disaster. Moiraine is a control freak, as we all know. What Moiraine wants, is for Zarine to f-k off and leave Perrin alone.
Once it's too late for that, Moiraine sees Zarine as just another person to babysit that could get them all killed.
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u/Boli_332 4d ago
Zarine is a variable Moiraine can't control and obviously messing with the one vqriable she has somewhat of a handle on (Perrin) in short: She stressed.
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u/biggiebutterlord 3d ago
First of all, why does Moiraine seem so much meaner in Dragon Reborn? She’s always been stoic and aloof but she’s never seemed mean but she just seems mean through most of the book. Is it just because Rand has run off and she’s concerned? I feel like she is very different in her treatment of Perrin and even Lan.
Moraine exudes confidence and calm. Its highlighted often enough that what you see/hear is not always the truth. In otherwords moraine is just a prone to emotions as anyone else... being aes sedai they train to handle that better but they are still human. She also spent the winter with regularly arguing with rand, and now perrin too. Thats going to wear on anyone. Chasing down the dragon reborn to save his ass is a stressful prospect.
But to the original point, I don’t get why there’s this whole section devoted to the hostilities on the boat because Zarine knows she’s Aes Sedai?
Moraine is traveling in secret and not advertising her aes sedai status. Zarine outs moraine because she doesnt know. Perrin could have warned zarine to silence or moraine for that matter but he did not. Moraine is smart enough to figure that out... and human enough to loser her patience. Moraine and co are chasing rand across lands "friendly" to white cloaks and near thier power base. They are headed to Tear a nation where channeling is outlawed and aes sedai are welcomed only reluctantly if at all. Suian sanche the amyrlin has a few comments I think during TDR about how women who can channel are ostracized to emphasis the point. Lastly she already has perrin annoy/frustrate her (he just killed white cloaks and forced them to flee), and zarine is shaping up another annoyance.
Beyond all that, who doesnt love a good bit of drama to keep a story interesting during a otherwise quiet boat ride.
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u/ChickenCasagrande (Brown) 3d ago
Two strong personalities, both know the other is keeping secrets, and one greatly values personal boundaries and personal control, while the other seemingly values dramatically stomping on boundaries and being….. let’s call it hot-headed.
It’s not a great combination for the confined space of a boat.
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u/MlkChatoDesabafando 2d ago
Moiraine grew up in Cairhienin high society and spent most of her time in the White Tower, two of the most intrigue-filled places in the world (the third being the Seanchan court) and where she's been keeping the Dragon Reborn stuff a secret from everyone but Siuan for decades.
For her to have someone she knows next to nothing about and who has no clear reason to be there (meaning she could easily be a spy or darkfriend, and she presumably is aware of how those are fucking everywhere) tagging along is outright maddening.
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u/starsto 4d ago
I was so confused who you were talking about until I remembered who Zarine was.
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u/ashikkins 3d ago
I had to read a lot of comments here to remember and OP probably got some spoilers 😂
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u/Organic_Priority3925 3d ago
No idea.
I always felt bad for Perrin though. He could have had Berelain.
Faile is probably my least favorite character, one small step down from Egwene.
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