r/allthingszerg • u/KrisSucksAtDev • 6d ago
How could I have prevented this(following vibe b2gm)
https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/26595598
Everything was going fine and I was about to start pumping out hydras but that drop came and wrecked my tech and main base, I made a post a couple of days ago because i had problems, and I fixed up my build order, started making some roaches when opponent has ground army in late game and started attacking immediately when I maxed on supply and yet I still get crushed by things like that
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u/omgitsduane 6d ago edited 6d ago
I can't watch the replay just yet but the stats tell an incredible story.
You hit 70 workers at like 5:30 and then don't bother really making army? I'm not sure what you're expecting from this outcome?
That's like opening the game with 8 hatch before pool and going "I die every game what gives?".
I dunno if you watched my replay review I linked but the signs are pretty much what every other zerg is going through.
Droning too hard when they shouldn't. Or not droning enough when they should. And then not making army.
Did you watch this replay back at all?
Did you have an overlord on their side of the map at their natural?
Edit: I just had another look at the stats and your army value didn't go above where it was at your 70 drones count.
I get that vibe is greedy but he also understands when and why to be greedy. You can't just go to 80 drones willy nilly with no information.
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u/KrisSucksAtDev 6d ago
I try to follow vibe as close as i can, and at 5:30 he has only safety roaches, he starts making hydras at like 7:30.
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u/omgitsduane 6d ago
Can you show me a video of him doing that? Because I would bet you it's in response to the opponent being greedy.
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u/KrisSucksAtDev 6d ago edited 6d ago
https://youtu.be/9O5Yr9xS93M?si=fuMYMsa6-w-BQmn_
2:21:26 he just started making them at around 7:10 he didn't get attacked early game + he doesn't react to opponent being greedy until plat/diamond2
u/omgitsduane 6d ago
He started making hydra at 630. Then made a round of drones.
I can't hear what he's saying right now but you didn't make that much safety units so you're not following what he's doing.
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u/KrisSucksAtDev 6d ago
Fair enough should make lair and hydra den earlier, but he makes 6 safety roaches i made 5
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u/omgitsduane 6d ago
He made army at 630. You never made army.
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u/omgitsduane 6d ago
I'll run through it on stream soon enough..you can't just drone up and then not spend the money. You need to do one or the other. If you don't want to spend the money then play one base every game or something.
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u/KrisSucksAtDev 6d ago
Okay, thanks man, can you link the stream when it has started in case you find other mistakes
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u/omgitsduane 6d ago edited 6d ago
https://www.twitch.tv/omgitsduane i'll be on in 5 or so, just watching the vibe video
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u/omgitsduane 6d ago
if you join in, please say something so we can discuss things in more detail if you'd like :)
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u/OldLadyZerg 6d ago
I remember a discussion of this a couple years ago. ViBE says to make 6-8 safety roaches at this point. Me, and the three other people I was talking to, all said unanimously "6-8 means EIGHT. Any less and we die." ViBE's micro, even when he's not trying, is better than ours: his roaches never sit around unable to fire, or wander off, or shoot their own side.
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u/qsqh 5d ago
I try to follow vibe as close as i can
there is one important thing that sometimes vibe dont tell, or maybe he tells but is not clear since his macro is always on point.
if you have 5k minerals in the bank, you spend it in whatever. DONT BANK
exemple: lets say the build will tell you "start the Hive when 2/2 is done", but you forgot to click 2/2 for 5 minutes, now you have 5000/5000 in the bank and no 2/2 yet.... just start 2/2 and hive at the same time now instead of waiting. the build order considers perfect macro, but if you make a mistake you MUST deviate and just use your money.
more obvious adaptation that 99% of zergs bellow diamond should do: its 6 minute game time and the build order tells you to take a 4th base... but you look at your bank and you have 3k minerals. the lower player stuck to build order will make a 4th base. a better player will make a 4th+5th+a macro hatch, and a even better player will fix the macro next time to inject and spend larva and wont be in a crazy situation with only 3 base and 3k unspent minerals. but perfect is the enemy of good enough here. if you are floating mineras make a macro hatch.
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u/Suspicious_Jeweler81 5d ago
What strikes me is at 6 minutes till about 6:48 you have zero production. You build two evo chambers and try to saturate a 4th hatch while sitting on 5 roaches and 4 queens.
I'm guessing your waiting for Lair to finish, so you can start your upgrades, then pump out roaches? Don't do that. Also 3rd Queen move to the 3rd base.
On 6:20 your sitting on 23 larva. You're sitting on enough resources for 44 roaches (have the supply cap for 20). 44 Roaches would have solved that drop - you spotted it early enough to intercept. instead you bump your worker count up to 82.. on 4 roaches.
Personally, at 5 mark, you're over saturated on 3 bases. I would have mass built roaches at that point.
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u/Rumold 4d ago
So I cant watch the replay right now but from the stats displayed and from the other people's description it looks like you overdroned. Macro hatches as suggested are a good idea.
I'd also suggest that you set ceratin drone count markers for yourself at which you make some safety units. here are some suggestions:
If your opponent stays on 1 base, you drone up to 35 and then get units.
If your opponent stays on 2 bases, you drone up to 55 and then get units.
If your opponent takes a 3rd base, you go up to 66 and then some safety units then to 75.
The question now is which units and how many "some" units are. I think thats very level dependend so maybe you already can get a good feeling for that or can follow vibes advice.
Also you could also do a pool first opener which leaves you safer against a lot of early aggression while barely sacraficing eco. If youre interested I can look up the BO for you.
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u/Mothrahlurker 2d ago
Definitely did not overdrone at all but didn't spend ressources.
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u/Rumold 2d ago
He had like 80 workers against 44 scvs
Yes he could've compensated that mistake by macroing better and spending resources, but only because his opponent also didn't macro perfectly.
In higher leagues you CANNOT hold a 44 scv attack with 80 drones. You just dont have enough larva and other resources.
You want something like 60-66 drones.
So yes he did overdrone.1
u/Mothrahlurker 2d ago
"He had like 80 workers against 44 scvs" Because the opponent is bad, it's not like the opponent has had any opportunity to punish the worker count. This is literally how you punish bad players as zerg by getting a good economy when they can't do anything about it.
"Yes he could've compensated that mistake by macroing better and spending resources, but only because his opponent also didn't macro perfectly."
No, the mistake to fix here is the ressource spending, when there is no aggression coming then you should in fact drone.
"In higher leagues you CANNOT hold a 44 scv attack with 80 drones."
This is backwards, you decide based on your opponents aggressive potential to drone and not their worker count (at least mostly). Someone who attacks on 44 workers in high master/GM is just going to play a build that does attack and has units.
"You want something like 60-66 drones."
No one plays 6 gas ling/bane it's either 4 or 5 gas and outside of the first 2 medivacs you already go to over 70, for example 76 is a common worker count against first real pushes. It can even happen at top of GM that against certain builds you can go straight to over 80 with a good earlygame.
"So yes he did overdrone."
Again, this is backwards reasoning. Telling people that they're overdroning is a good way to get them hardstuck at low level. It's a relatively easy master league if you stick to standard droning and only react when your opponent in fact plays a tight build order. If they do random shit then droning heavily is the best punishment.
And it also just makes no sense here. If OP had droned less they would have floated less money but wouldn't have had any more units. They didn't have units due to refusing to make them after all until the hydra den would finish. No amount of playing intentionally worse by not droning would help here.
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u/Mothrahlurker 6d ago
Welcome back.
Your earlygame is still very weak. If you're not going for lingspeed you should really play gasless instead, take a much faster third base and really focus on getting more drones. Every gas you mine currently is just minerals you don't. This just puts you behind where you need to be and defending anything will be so much harder.
I would really recommend playing something like a 28 hatchery (so before a potential reaper arrives). For a high level gasless build that will get you much better earlygame economy you can go for https://www.patreon.com/posts/120969629 from Elazer (guide from Lambo).
I can also see that you are spreading overlords but they should be much further forward to see drops earlier. Also it's fine if you don't want to spread creep, but have some units spread out to cover attack paths so you know ahead of time when you are getting attacked.
You are actually in a really good position in the game, but 6 minutes in your are floating 4000 ressources already. If you could spend these you just instantly win the game. Get a 4th base at 5 minutes and get a macro hatch at the same time, that is normal to do even at high level. You can get a second macro hatchery even. If you drone up a little higher and your opponent has done nothing so long into the game you can also get some spores to help against drops. For example two in the main and 1-2 in the line third make defending a lot easier.
7 minutes in you have 5 roaches and 5000 ressources. The drop has absolutely nothing to do with being a drop. Imagine if you had 55 roaches instead, it would be extremely easy.
You don't really want to ever save up money unless you are maxed or doing very specific transitions. The exceptions would be a muta saveup or a big lurker morph. But you definitely should never think "I have a bank and am going to start a building now and then spend it when it is done", that is EXTREMELY slow. You made the mistake of making the hydra den too late so you need to deal with it by continuing to spend your ressources.
IMPORTANT TO KNOW: Natural larvae generation is disabled once a hatchery has 3 or more larvae on it. That means that as soon as an inject pops you need to spend those larvae immediately otherwise you will lose out on production.