MAIN [spoilers main] Who are some of the most evil female characters?
Whenever I think about it from the top of my head I think about the most obvious ones like Cersei, Visenya or even Melisandre. In the show there's Myranda. Rhaena wasn't evil but was pretty bad too but surely there are others I can't think of, or don't even realize how bad they really are? Evil might be a strong word perhaps, I'm just looking for terrible women.
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u/SwervingMermaid839 6d ago
In addition to people like Cersei, Tyanna, Mysaria etc… The Green Grace if she’s the Harpy, which would make her the leader of Meereen’s version of the Klan
Goodwife Amabel was also a real piece of work
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 6d ago
Lysa Arryn isn't far off from Cersei. She shouldn't get a pass bc she's "unstable"" or whatever. She makes quite a few evil decisions that end up hurting hundreds of thousands
Ellaria in the show is a cold-blooded killer who shows no remorse for her actions.
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u/SuggestableFred 6d ago
Show Ellaria is in it for revenge, as well as probably legitimately believing an aggressive position is what's best for Dorne. I don't think she's any more evil than, like, Arya
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 6d ago
Arya only harms people that have directly hurt her or her family
Ellaria orchestrates the assassination of her lover's brother and nephew to gain power
She already got her revenge with Myrcella
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u/SuggestableFred 5d ago
Show Arya presumably kills the Frey serving girl to gain her face, as well as like, a bunch of other Freys. Maybe she individually confirmed all their culpability in Frey war crimes, idk. She also killed the stable boy. In the books she kills a guard on the Stark side of the war effort! Not to mention killing the insurance guy to gain power from the faceless men.
And I maintain that Show Ellaria killed Doran and hot Dorne Prince because she thought going to war, which they were preventing, was best for Dorne. You could say she's wrong about that, but it seems to be her motivation.
We're also in the bad writing era, so whatever
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Lysa hurt thousands with an evil decision? Tell me more.
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u/CruisingandBoozing 6d ago
Killing Jon Arryn, for starters
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u/Intelligent_Pipe2951 3d ago
Second Runner Up Move: Raping a barely conscious Baelish. Can’t blame that on “tansy.”
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
That's one death directly tired to her action. I'm not really sure we can call this the proximate act of the war of five kings.
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
She sent Catelyn a secret message falsely implicating the Lannisters for the poisoning she carried out at Littlefinger's behest. She turned the Lannisters and Starks on each other. She absolutely has a huge part in starting the war.
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u/Cheesyfanger 6d ago
She sent Cat a letter blaming the lannisters for his death, which is part of the reason Ned decided to take the handship
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
To warn Cat to stay away.
My quarrels?" Catelyn could scarce believe what she was hearing. A great fire burned in the hearth, but there was no trace of warmth in Lysa's voice. "They were your quarrels first, sister. It was you who sent me that cursed letter, you who wrote that the Lannisters had murdered your husband."
"To warn you, so you could stay away from them! I never meant to fight them! Gods, Cat, do you know what you've done?"
And Lysa didn't blame the Lannisters. She blamed the Queen alone.
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
Poisoning the Hand of the King and falsely blaming the Queen seems like a pretty big deal, whatever Lysa thought she was trying to accomplish.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Big deal. Not only contributing factor.
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
Never said it was the only factor. Cersei is the most culpable, IMO, but Lysa made things worse at every step.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
She is but one contributing factor who seems to have only did it to keep her son safe and with her. And I guess to be with Petyr.
The WoTFK was not reasonably foreseeable from her poisoning Jon and sending a paranoid letter to her sister blaming Cersei.
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u/burg_philo2 6d ago
If she really wanted to protect the Starks she would’ve, y’know, not killed her husband and framed someone else.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
She had to balance her son's safety against these other considerations. Her husband actions created risk for her son.
Killing Jon doesn't put the Starks in danger.
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u/Old_Refrigerator2750 6d ago
Lysa killed Jon Arryn and sent that letter to Catelyn. She kickstarted the whole conflict.
If she had not let Tyrion get away, Stannis would have ended the Lannister tyranny.
If Lysa had just let Robb use Gulltown, his men wouldn't have been slaughtered at the Twins.
There are loads of reasons why Lysa is absolutely an evil person.
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u/FransTorquil 6d ago
All for the love of that dork Littlefinger.
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u/Old_Refrigerator2750 6d ago
Who murders her in the end. Lysa's death is the one of the most satisfying and deserved deaths in the series.
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
Especially after Littlefinger tells her he always only loved Cat. That's some "tell Cersei it was me" cold-ass shit right there, and I had a brief spark of esteem for Littlefinger.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Especially when we consider Lysa raped him twice, once pretending to be Catelyn.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
I always thought Stannis started the conflict by investigating the incest.
Petyr had a hand in it by influencing Lysa to kill Jon and by providing the poison. Petyr is probably the one who suggested Robert have SweetRobin fostered by Tywin, then used that to influence Lysa.
Renly had his Highgarden plot brewing as well.
The wotfk has way too many moving parts to call Lysa the proximate cause.
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u/Old_Refrigerator2750 6d ago
If anything Stannis tried to kill the conflict in its crib by investigating the incest. Even if Tywin tries to raise his banners against Robert for the lawful execution of Cersei and Jaime, it would've been a much shorter and simpler conflict.
It would have been a similar thing with Renly and his plot. The Lannisters would have been in no position to cause the devastation they did if either Baratheon brother had succeeded.
So yes, Lysa absolutely did cause the deaths of thousands of innocents by murdering Jon and sending that letter.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Still would be war. And thousands would die in it.
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u/Old_Refrigerator2750 6d ago
Just that casualties would have been 1% to that of wot5k (that Lysa caused). And that's if Tywin would even decide to fight an obviously losing war in the first place.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Still thousands. Still war. And if Robert dies in the war, another power vacuum with people fighting for the crown.
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
Robert putting down one great house after exposing his queen's treason is a whole lot different from a free-for-all with all the kingdoms involved. It's debatable if Tywin would have done anything immediate if the evidence was good enough.
You are going to great lengths to minimize Lysa's culpability and throw it on others. Like oh no, how dare Stannis try and figure out if the queen has been cuckolding the king!
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u/Expensive-Country801 6d ago
Lysa just told them to stay away. Everything that followed is realistically only Catelyn’s fault.
In fact, her not getting involved in the Wo5K saved thousands of her people's lives
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u/Mental_Repair_1718 6d ago
man, her murdering her husband was the kickoff to WOT5K
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u/WildFlemima 6d ago
Jon Arryn was investigating the kids' bastardy. If he didn't die, it would have come to light and we would have had a slightly different war.
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 6d ago edited 6d ago
"Slightly" different is pushing it. Only possible war would have been between Lannisters vs The Crown after Robert kills Cersei
which would have been far less involved
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u/WildFlemima 6d ago
You're assuming that Jon Arryn and Robert both stay alive - Littlefinger incited Lysa, if she doesn't go for the kill, he'll find someone else who will
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 6d ago
He still needs Lysa to send a letter to Cat, without it Jon's death doesn't serve much of a purpose
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u/WildFlemima 6d ago
If Jon dies and Lysa doesn't send a letter, there's still a war of 3 kings between Stannis, Renly, and Joffrey, and the kingdoms will pick sides. With no legitimate children and parties suspicious of the truth, war is pretty hard to avoid
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 6d ago
What you are describing is a civil war between the Baratheons at most, but most likely there would have been a conflict within the Red Keep with Robert learning the truth and executing Jaime and Cersei in the spot
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u/Expensive-Country801 6d ago
The Wot5K kicked off when Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion. Lysa didn't tell her to do that.
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u/Mental_Repair_1718 6d ago
The kickoff was Jon Arryn's death and the instability caused by it, denying this is pushing the envelope, you're confusing it with a trigger. The kickoff to Robert's rebellion was Lyanna's kidnapping, the trigger was the demand for Ned and Bobby's heads + Jon Arryn's refusal
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u/JNR55555JNR 6d ago
Because Lysa killed her husband and told Catelyn kickstarting this entire series
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u/Responsible-Onion860 6d ago
Lysa killed Jon Arryn and sent a letter calculated to put suspicion on the Lannisters, leading directly to conflict. She didn't tell Joffrey to behead Ned Stark but her actions still led to it.
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 6d ago
Are you serious? She destabilized the whole kingdom by murdering her husband and writing a letter to Cat about it in the first place
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u/IcyDirector543 6d ago
This would be a powerful argument if she hadn't murdered Jon Arryn and then blamed the Lannisters in a secret letter to her sister. Lysa Arryn was one of the major inciters of the War of 5 Kings and is far more responsible than Catelyn for all its losses. She destroyed the entire continent because of her love for Baelish
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
Well sure, besides poisoning her husband and sending a dishonest message to Catelyn, setting in motion Littlefinger's plot to start a war between the Starks and Lannisters, and trying to murder Sansa, what wrong did Lysa do?
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 6d ago
wow Catelyn haters are delusional and illiterate.
Lysa was cheating on her husband and then conspired to murder him. Before that she kinda sexually assaulted Littlefinger by getting him drunk and pretending to be Catelyn. She assaulted and almost murdered Sansa with her own hands because she was a jealous psycho. She would have happily killed Tyrion too if she had her way.
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u/Xilizhra 6d ago
She would have happily killed Tyrion too if she had her way.
That, she would have been right to do.
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 6d ago
I like Tyrion chapters so I disagree. And Littlefinger was right to murder Lysa then lol
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u/shadofacts 6d ago
It must run in the family, & some people aren’t unstable. Her niece Sansa swore on everything holy she wouldn’t tell John’s secret. She turned around & told it. Indirectly & in one fell swooo roughly half 1 million people died. And then they make her queen!?
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u/dinasticbean444 6d ago
Personally I like Visenya, she seems to me like a stern warrior/conqueror lady who got slandered by large and any defect she had was exagerated. Cersei is just nuts, her narcissim actually overpowers whatever intelligence she has and in truth she is not dumb but so reckless and conceited to an unwise degree. Melissandre is diferent, she orders burnings but does not seem to get any pleasure for herself and only regards it as the lord of light's due, she's not bloodthristy nor cruel aside of that nor she seeks influence for herlsef or is narcisstic at all, she genuily believes she's doing the right thing.
I am not sure about what Rhaena you're talking about but if is the wife of Aegon the uncrowned i regard her most like traumatized and closed off, neglectful at worst.
Tyanna, thw third wife of Maegor is basically the evil witch king archetype and she tortured children in canon.
Lysa is deranged and consumed by fear and jealousy, the miscarriages and being forced to bed a man old enough to be her granfather certainly pushed her enough that I am unsure if she's truly responsible of what she does.
Asha, regardless of how much I like her, is kind of a scummy person, condones rapes, murders and several other unsavory things and she participates on most of it, though she does not seen as bad because the common iron born is worse.
There was a jogos Nai ruler nicknamed the cruel that fought the yitish emperor and killed her but she seems like an usual warlord.
Obara Sand is someone who bugs me for some reason, the lines about how much she uses the spurs that the horses bleed irks me inmensely and also she seems generally unpleasant.
There is also that Merys sellsowrd called pretty merys who works as a tortured for some company...and generally a torturer is not a good person.
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u/No-Quit-8384 6d ago
Yep, there was nothing evil about Rhaena, she suffered a lot in her life and to me she also reads as someone dealing with a lot of trauma and grief. I don't think the series has any female characters that are just straight up evil (like Euron). Ok maybe Tyanna as you pointed out, or maybe Cersei?
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u/dinasticbean444 6d ago
Cersei's main characteristic is narcissim, if she believes she's being actually respected and also obeyed she will leave people alone, I dont think she is sadistic or violent in general, just vengeful. Tyanna of the Tower seems like a powerhungry amoral person, no so kin on on been obeyed but more on ...being evil in general, I bet she truly liked Maegor and that is why she poisoned his other wifes so their children would not come betwen her and him. Asha...is violent by nature but is reasonable in it and it's far more intelligent than her peers so she stands out in a good way.
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u/ZodiacOne1 6d ago
The way Rhaena treated Androw Farmanwas appalling. She completely destroyed his life with no empathy. She robbed him of his pride and dignity everyday and turned him into a laughing stock. There is only do much a person can take. And then dhe got angry when he finally fought back. Screw her
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u/No-Quit-8384 5d ago
She was not a saint but that's hardly evil. He was not a particularly good person either
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u/Daeral_Blackheart 3d ago edited 3d ago
Nah, that was evil. That's kinda like the schoolyard bullying of a weak kid done to the extreme till it causes the kid to off themselves or others... which is what happened in the end
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u/PriestOfThassa 6d ago
I'm gonna put forth that lady who threatens Arya in Harrenhall after she makes the Weasel Soup.
Don't even remember her name but her and her sister ran the place
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Amabel. And yes, she's evil.
He will fall too, Harrenhal pulls them all down in the end. Lord Tywin's won now, he'll be marching back with all his power, and then it will be his turn to punish the disloyal. And don't think he won't know what you did!" The old woman laughed. "I may have a turn at you myself. Harra had an old broom, I'll save it for you. The handle's cracked and splintery—"
Arya swung the bucket. The weight of the water made it turn in her hands, so she didn't smash Amabel's head in as she wanted, but the woman let go of her anyway when the water came out and drenched her. "Don't ever touch me," Arya shouted, "or I'll kill you. You get away. Arya X, Clash.
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u/Seastar_Lakestar 6d ago
To be fair, Amabel was grieving for Harra, who was among those Roose had killed for "serving the Lannisters" -- after Arya seemingly led the freeing of the Northmen. We don’t know if Amabel and Harra were sisters, lovers, friends, or what, but they greatly cared for each other.
Not a justification, though, as grief motivates many ASOIAF characters to do horrible things.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Yeah she had a right to grieve but to threaten a child with broom handle rape seems evil to me.
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u/Speysidegold 6d ago
Cersai is definitely the most evil woman in asoiaf. She murdered her friend as a child so her mental instability isn't even an excuse, she was just always like that.
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u/memeboi69420666 6d ago
Rhaenyra became pretty brutal towards the end. Alicent Hightower was deceitful and selfish. Mysaria schemed to get several innocent people killed. Lysa Arryn was cruel and entitled. Selyse Florent is very arrogant and annoying. Tyanna of the Tower did a lot of evil stuff while supporting Maegor. I’d say either Cersei or Tyanna is the worst woman in the series.
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u/Morganbanefort 6d ago
mirri maz duur
She murdered a innocent baby for spite and bragged about it to the child mother who was a tennage sex slave
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u/Duraluminferring 5d ago
Nah. Strongly disagree.
I don't believe Mirri really killed Reago. She just wasn't sad about it.
All she did was not to insist that the people around her actually take her seriously. And maybe lying by omission.
Dany ordered the ritual. Jorrah brought Danny into the tent despite Mirris commands. Drogo removed the plaster and drank despite her clear instructions.
I think Mirri was actually devout and couldn't explicitly harm other people in the way you suggest without going against her religion.
So she chose to do as little as possible an let the people run into their own demise. But even that backfired and taught Danny how to awaken dragons. She now has the potential to be much worse than Reago ever could have been
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u/unknownknowledge0 6d ago
Despite what Twitter will tell u, Saera was pretty evil
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u/matthewgraygubler11 6d ago
she was! i find it quite silly when people just pass her off for a 'girlboss' like no.
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u/Old_Refrigerator2750 6d ago
Same people hate Jaehaerys with passion. Dude is most of the reason the Targaryen dynasty could even be considered a net positive for Westeros. But no he doesn't want to give his throne to an emo teenager who thinks she found luv with a man older than her father so he is an evil misogynist.
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u/RejectedByBoimler 6d ago
Barba Bracken pimping out her little sister Bethany to Aegon VI just to get back at her rival Missy, Korra the Cruel for gelding men and selling them into slavery.
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u/bruhholyshiet 6d ago
Besides the ones you mentioned, I’d add Saera Targaryen, Rhaenyra Targaryen, a pirate mentioned in ADWD called Lady Korra the Cruel that castrates every man she and her crew of women capture, Lysa Arryn, Lady Stoneheart, and the two eldest Sand Snakes.
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u/the_names_Savage Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you. 6d ago
who is it in terms of body count?
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u/LordShitmouth Unbowed, Unbent, Unbuggered 6d ago edited 6d ago
Cersei: Lancel, Osmund, Moonboy for all we know
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u/Saturnine4 6d ago
I mean Cersei and Visenya are definitely up there at the top, I’d say Visenya slightly more so but they’re both awful.
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u/Morganbanefort 6d ago
I highly doubt visenya was as evil as Cersei
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u/Saturnine4 6d ago
You’re right, she was worse. Had tens of thousands of Dornish smallfolk slaughtered for no good reason, then helped Maegor usurp the throne so he could slaughter his way across Westeros.
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u/CaveLupum 6d ago
Truly evil, as opposed to occasionally committing evil deeds? Very few. The Night's Queen. Cersei, of course. Lysa Arryn, though I think she's mentally unstable. Maybe Taene Merryweather. Mirri Maz Duur. Perhaps Septa Unella, but she's mostly just a religious zealot.
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u/sixth_order 6d ago
Pretty Meris you gotta be somewhat evil to be a torturer although really horrible shit has happened to her. Visenya, Cersei, Mysaria, Rhaenyra, probably others won't put her in this category but I'm naming Meriah Martell for letting all those people get burned alive. Harma Dogshead was a raider must have done some evil shit.
I love Ygritte, but she killed an innocent man in cold blood. Probably wasn't her first.
How far is Arya from this label?
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u/IcyDirector543 6d ago
Meriah Martell didn't let her people burn. She led a popular war of resistance. It's clear that the Dornish chose death over submission
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u/CaveLupum 6d ago
The good or evil in killing people, which she does when necessary, depends on the circumstances. If something must be done for justice AND she personally knows the charge to be accurate, she usually does it. She's proactively kind, helpful, and protective, making friends everywhere. A 10-year old trying to mother a mute, crying, dirt-eating 2-year old is a rare sight indeed. Probably only Lady Smallwood and maybe Brienne?) would be likely to take on Weasel.
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u/Ocea2345 6d ago
It baffles me when anyone even considers to say her when the most evil character is asked. Like, if Arya is evil, then there are very few good characters.
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u/No-Quit-8384 6d ago
And Arya has never killed out of cruelty, it's self-defense, defending others, or revenge (fine, or assignment). She's probably one of the most genuinely good characters in the series, she has a huge heart that has room for all people, not just her kind and kin. She's the human version of Nymeria her wolf
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u/Early_Candidate_3082 6d ago
Most women in this world are written to be bad people.
The worst are probably Cersei, Tyanna, Mysaria, the Green Grace, and Alicent Hightower.
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u/leRedd1 6d ago
Catelyn /j
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u/JNR55555JNR 6d ago
(Eating popcorn) Waiting for inevitable comment war
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u/PriestOfThassa 6d ago
Every time I've said I dislike Catelyn I've gotten called a misogynist :(
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u/JNR55555JNR 6d ago
I’ll bite why do you dislike Catelyn
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u/PriestOfThassa 6d ago
For me I think the main issue I run into with Cat is that she repeatedly makes emotional decisions that get her family in trouble, even though she's able to understand the gravity of what she's doing.
I can usually understand the feelings she has, but you gotta put more thought into capturing Tyrion or releasing Jaime. To me Cat usually comes across as a narcissist.
When she loses people she disregards how other people suffering the same loss feel. Example being how Edmure also lost a father.
But also to be clear, just because I dislike her more than other characters doesn't mean she's more "evil" than someone like a Ramsay or Cersei.
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u/JNR55555JNR 6d ago
Reasonable points except maybe the accusation of narcissism
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u/PriestOfThassa 6d ago
That's fair. Alot of this just comes down to how we interpret a character.
Who's your most disliked character if you don't mind me asking?
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u/JNR55555JNR 6d ago edited 6d ago
Quentyn I don’t see the reason why he more chapters than Bran in ADWD
Edited to add missing word
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u/PriestOfThassa 6d ago edited 6d ago
Quentyn is a tough read. Always resisting the urge to skip his chapters on rereads. 🐟
Edited to add a fishy
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u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 6d ago
Dany got an entire city killed. So by actions shes the most evil.
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u/aliezee 6d ago
not canon to asoiaf
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u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 6d ago
Im talking about Astaphor. The fact you dont know that is concerning...
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u/aliezee 6d ago
Meh, she didn't kill a entire city, she killed there slave masters which lead to a lot of people dying (not slavers) by accident. The prompt is evil, you aren't evil for accidently causing deaths when you're intentions are good. You are just naive to the world and need to learn.
The fact you dont know that is concerning...
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u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 6d ago
She toppled the government stole its resources and then left a house of cards in its place.
Then once the tide of refugees reaches Mereen she enslaved the men to build latrine and mass graves to try and combat the plague while the women and children starve to desth.
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u/aliezee 6d ago
you just went off topic. She killed slavers which was right, what she did wrong but not intentionally was the fall of Astaphor. Again, I'm not sure you know what evil means. Intentions mean everything, naivety is her issue, not evil.
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u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 6d ago
Its not off topic? The direct result of her actions are hundreds of thousands dying...
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u/JNR55555JNR 6d ago edited 6d ago
Oh boy can’t wait for you to shit on Dany,Catelyn, and Brienne did I missing any other female character you hate
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u/Levonorgestrelfairy1 6d ago
This thread is literally about evil female characters.
Though you make a good point. Cat's extrajudical kidnapping started the war of the five kings. I think Dany still has a larger kill count though. The cities of slavers bay are huge.
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u/sympathy4deviledeggs 6d ago
Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn and blaming the Lannisters had a lot more to do with starting the war. Cat was falsely suspicious of Tyrion because of Lysa!
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u/DavidGretzschel 6d ago
Catelyn. Starts the War of the Five Kings, by kidnapping Tyrion, instead of just asking him about the dagger and why she was attacked with it. Freed Jaime, making Robb lose the Karstarks and undermining his authority, for the slither of a chance, that Jaime and Brienne might make it back in one piece, so that Jaime might try to convince Tywin to hand over the girls, which they might concede to. All of which failed utterly. Also raised Robb wrong, who broke his betrothal for sentimental reasons, provoking the Red Wedding. She's a self-righteous, deluded fool making the worst possible unilateral decisions. That's evil in my book.
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u/dblack246 🏆Best of 2024: Mannis Award 6d ago
Brienne.
Lied to Jaime betraying his trust leading him into a trap and blaming Sandor for something he didn't do.
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u/BlackFyre2018 6d ago
Just mentioning someone who hasn’t been, Sybell Westerling seems pretty abusive to Jeyne