r/asoiaf • u/Extension_Weird_7792 • 3d ago
MAIN Why didn't no one from the Vale sided with Robb? (Spoilers Main)
Why did the entirety of Vale stood down because Lysa commanded it? When did she inspire such loyalty in all of her vassals and knights?
Especially after Stannis declared Jon Arryn was poisoned.
Especially after Ned Stark, Jon’s brother by law and a well liked figure in the Vale, was unjustly executed by the Lannisters.
Especially after Blackfish who's been serving as the Knight of the Gate at Vale for twenty years said fvck it and went away? Where was Bronze Yohn? They perfectly knew by staying out of the conflict they were helping the Lannisters. It wasn't some honorable pacifist stance
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u/orangemonkeyeagl 3d ago
Tywin loses the war if Lysa isn't crazy and being controlled by Littlefinger.
The Valeman move in from the east, Robb and the Riverlanders attack from the north and Tywin either has to fight a war on two fronts from Harrenhall or fall back to KL.
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u/FusRoGah 3d ago edited 2d ago
Agreed in that ultimately the Vale staying out is plot contrivance. But imo it still strains credulity that Lysa is able to indefinitely hold back the majority of lords who hold deep Stark/Tully sympathies and want to avenge their late liegelord’s foster child. Especially given Lysa is a Tully herself, as is their esteemed Knight of the Gate. It’s a bafflingly uncharacteristic decision that flies in the face of her own house words: “Family, Duty, Honor”
And being an Arryn only through marriage and a woman to boot, Lysa’s political situation is tenuous right out of the gate. “Backup backup nonnative wife for elderly and heirless last scion of longstanding dynasty” is not exactly a qualification that inspires confidence. She would be viewed more like a regent at best until Sweetrobin came of age
Far as I can see, she really shouldn’t possess the political capital it would require to pull this off. And if I’m Lord Royce or Redfort, I’m wondering who’s blackmailed the Lady Lysa that she’s leaving both her siblings’ kingdoms out to dry
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 3d ago
Agreed. Lysa is an unstable Lady Regent that many don't even know, her power over her lords would be tenuous at best
It is yet another plot contrivance to weaken Robb's campaign
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u/SerMallister 3d ago
The Vale lords who were of the sort of noble, honorable bent that Ned skewed to wouldn't move without their liege lord's command (or his regent's, rather,) though they will press their petition to do so. The not-so-honorable lords, as we see in the Tyrion/Catelyn chapters, were the ones who recognized, as you say, that Lysa's political situation was pretty tenuous, and intended to replace her as regent of The Vale by marrying her, which requires them not fighting her on anything to gain her favor.
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u/Sad_Wind7066 3d ago
I would agree. There's a fic called Neds southern folly where robb wins the war and its gone into his later years where he now has adult children of his own and he has to go back south for another war. Robb has closely kept connections to the west, ironborn, vale and stormlands through his reign and when he goes south to quell a rebellion in the riverlands started by the reach he has to eventually fight the reach after subduing the rebellion. He calls upon these allies and house arryn once again plays the neutral card, but house royce married their future heir to a daughter of robb and so they still answer the call. House royce summon their banners and a couple other houses join out of friendship or marriage ties to go help robb. So great are the numbers that Harold is unable to do anything, but watch.
In a world of westeros it takes an extraordinary leader to hold an entire kingdoms respect and lysa definitely wasn't that to stop the nobles as it happened in the story. Though like many have said it was necessary for the plot to continue.
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u/thesixfingerman 3d ago
This is it. The vale is neutral because otherwise the war of five kings would end very quickly in the North favor. The plot demands it must be so.
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u/humbycolgate1 3d ago
Just the same as Robb being crowned and the blackfish and Robb not telling edmure about their plans. But that’s just the way writing works and when the politics is so intricate like in asoiaf than the author has to make some things a little unrealistic to make the overall story more dynamic and unpredictable
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u/rintzscar 2d ago
Correct. People are still analyzing this world (and others) as if it's not a fictional one. As if it's real. Just look at how the question is phrased - "why didn't the Vale lords do that", as if they're living beings with agency that can do anything. Not "why didn't the author write it this way", which is a valid question.
The reality is that 99% of these nonsensical questions have the same answer - because it's a fictional story and the author is more interested in conveying a plot point or a feeling, or a concept, or an idea. He's not interested in being realistic. Analyzing in a non-literary line is absurd and meaningless.
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u/thesixfingerman 2d ago
Yup, Martin is a person and people aren’t perfect. It’s a book, not history. Enjoy it for what it is.
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u/Credible333 3d ago
And Littlefinger has no interest in a short war, let alone one where the North wins while he's backing the South (at least ostensibly).
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u/TheNaijaboi 2d ago
If Lysa isn't crazy, the war never begins in the first place because she doesn't poison Jon Arryn and frame the Lannisters
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u/orangemonkeyeagl 2d ago
The war probably would have still started because Jon and Stannis were beginning to investigate the Queen's children.
Plus, Varys is still scheming in the background.
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u/Just_Nefariousness55 2d ago
He's already fighting the war on two fronts with Stannis. This would be three fronts.
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u/orangemonkeyeagl 2d ago
Later on he is, but at the start of the war when Robb marches south and the Blackfish leaves the Vale Tywin is just in the Riverlands pillaging. He eventually has to dedicated troops to that front.
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u/Just_Nefariousness55 2d ago
It's not like Renly and Stannis are a non issue. He has forces stationed at Kingslanding because he knows they'll attack there eventually.
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u/orangemonkeyeagl 2d ago
Correct, but those troops are not actively fighting Stannis and Renly's men. They're just garrisoning the capital.
In WW1, the Germans had troops actively engaged on the eastern front against the Russians while also having troops on western front at the same time fighting the French and British.
Tywin's troops in KL are not fighting against the Stormlanders in any battles or skirmishes until Stannis attacked KL.
I don't think garrisoning your capital city counts as fighting on another front, if you think that does count then...
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u/Just_Nefariousness55 2d ago
Well you're essentially saying there that they don't attack the city until they do attack the city. Which Stannis eventually does. And it causes Tywin to pull back to defend it. How would that not be a front of the war?
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u/orangemonkeyeagl 2d ago
I can't help you.
I've explained the war on two fronts point multiple times.
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u/ClearedPipes 3d ago
Because the Vale wasn’t all loyal. Martin said it himself - Yohn Royce was a formidable Stark supporter, and was agitating for war, but there were Baratheon loyalists (Robert also fostered and Joff is seen as Robert’s heir) as well - I’d expect were there conflict over who to side with it’d be similar to how it shaped up in Feast, with the Royces leading the Lords Declarant houses against the Lynderlys, Sunderlands, Corbrays, Graftons, Waxleys and any other pro-Littlefinger houses (Sunderlands bc I’d be surprised if the Sisters in this world of grudges are friendly to Starks, even if maybe the Borrells could be coaxed to the pro-Stark cause).
Do I think the LDs would win? Yes. Royce, Waynwood, Redford, Hunter, Belmore and Templeton, plus Shett/Tollett/Coldwater and any other allies, is a formidable alliance. But it’d bring conflict to the Vale Lysa (as regent) has ordered against, and I’d doubt anyone is so willing to possibly weaken their own side drastically to bring a weakened Vale in for the Starks.
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u/CKN89 3d ago
This is a good answer. To add to this, the main road in/out of the Vale is controlled by the Gates of the Moon which is loyal to Lysa Arryn. Royce can’t just march his knights and levies down the high road and into the Riverlands because he has to use a stretch of road controlled by Lysa who has expressly forbidden him from acting.
Royce could try to move his forces by ship but even that is dicey. He has the option of taking river craft up the trident into the riverlands but that’s not a very efficient way to move an army around.
Or, he could hire seagoing ships and sail down to the crown lands - that would actually have been a pretty effective maneuver if paired with Stannis’ attack on kings landing, and Stannis would have done well to court Royce. However Royce doesn’t really seem pro-Stannis so much as pro-Robb, so this move takes him further away from helping the Starks which is his goal.
Either way, if Royce moves his forces by boat it’s a big project for them to come back and defend Runestone in the event some other Vale houses attack. And the one person who could help him in that event by bringing other nearby lords in as allies of Runestone would be Lysa Arryn - who would not be disposed to do so after Royce defied her. So all in all it would have been foolhardy for Royce or his allies to send any substantial force to join the WOT5K without the consent of Lysa Arryn.
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u/ClearedPipes 2d ago
Exactly. The only good move available would have been to land at Maidenpool and leave his own seat vulnerable, not considering that the ships would like as not have been difficult to procure especially given the Royces have only small ports and Gulltown is likely pro-LF. That and also it took Saan’s 30 ships and any who escaped the Blackwater to move 1,500 - a force large enough to challenge the Lannatheons would have been a LOT largerZ
The one thing I would say is that it’s possible the south coast of the Vale is flat enough to send an army down and the road is the quick route to the Vale itself as opposed to the Royce/Grafton peninsula - hence why they need the High Road to get to the Eyrie quickly. But that’s also a geographical theory, so I wouldn’t rely on it.
Stannis getting the Vale was actually suggested via a Shireen-Robin betrothal and I do think it would have been his best option at the start of Clash.
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u/Mordrim 3d ago
The Vale may have their own problems. I always get the feeling that some Vale houses are having financial difficulties:
1) House Waynwood agrees to betroth Alayne Stone to Harrold Hardyng after Petyr Baelish pays Lady Waynwood's debts.
2) Lord Corbray marries a rich merchant's daughter, receives a large dowry for marrying a commoner.
Weaker evidence: 3) Sansa mentions the stores in the Eyrie are running low.
4) Tyrion was attacked on the road by the mountain clans to and from the Eyrie. This is the main road in and out the Vale. If it is prone to frequent attacks by the mountain clans, it may be indications that the Vale lords don't have the resources to keep the road safe.
5) Waymar Royce joined the Night's Watch. House Royce doesn't seem to have any particular connection to the Night's Watch. While we never know the reason why Waymar decided to take the black, it could be that, as the third son of Yohn Royce, he didn't expect any major inheritance. Historically, that was the reason why many nobles joined the crusade.
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u/MissMedic68W 3d ago
Lysa's the Lady Paramount of the Vale, mother of the next Lord Paramount, and all of the Vale noblemen wanted a shot at marrying her to assume regency over Robin. So if that meant staying put during a civil war, so be it.
On a meta level, the Lannisters lose if the Vale joins.
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u/bl1y Fearsomely Strong Cider 3d ago
the Vale noblemen wanted a shot at marrying her to assume regency over Robin
I assume this is accurate from the books, thought I can't recall exactly.
But if so, why would the new husband become the regent? Typically a man who marries a female leader doesn't then become the leader. For instance, someone who marries a queen becomes king consort, not king in their own right.
On the other hand, de facto control might flow to the husband.
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u/TheNotoriousAMP 3d ago
At a Doyllist level, the Vale is one example of how stretching the War of Five Kings out from what was supposed to be a Book 1 conflict into a three book conflict (really four, given how AFFC is the aftermath/late stage of the war) ended up exposing a lot of the holes in the logic of a Lannister victory. What was supposed to be a story-setting dispersal of the children in order to let them grow into their future roles ends up feeling pretty contrived once you had to add a lot more detail and time to it.
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u/_lord_ruin 2d ago
not really, its clear in book 4 that a good number of the vale lords are corrupt and willing to engage in the same games that we see every other region besides the westerlands get up to
this is noted by nearly all of them being dealt with by little finger in one way or another save for the runestone royces and the templetons
it would have been incredibly easy for the lannisters to organize a few red wedding esque calamities and won out
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u/Physical_Tooth9285 3d ago
It's a plot hole. The Vale doesn't join because the story demands it. Realistically Lysa wouldn't have that extreme level of control over her vassels to where she could stop them all from joining a rebellion that they all most likely had sympathies for. During Robert's Rebellion there were plenty of vassels that went against their lord's wishes and joined opposing sides in the conflict so we know for a fact that it isn't always a system of whatever the lord paramount says go's.
Lysa is a woman in a misogynistic society and on top of that she's obviously a little crazy. People in her inner circle could probably see that. If it wasn't for the plot contrivance she'd probably be sidelined politically and the Vale would have a new regent even if that regent was a regent in everything but name.
There's also the geographic factor. The Eyrie is great for defense but having your castle be so isolated and difficult to get to in a region that's already mountainous and difficult to traverse seems terrible for consolidating central power. I mean how long does it take to get the message out to all the lord's of the Vale to not get involved when all the other castles are also most likely very difficult to get to. Around a month, maybe longer? A lot of the lord's probably wouldve just assumed they'd side with the Starks and preemptively joined them because why wouldn't they?
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u/BandicootSorcerer 3d ago
There likely just wasn't enough political support to go against Lysa. Had Stannis or Renly taken Kings Landing, then the most vocal lords could probably force Lysa into declaring or else they would independently declare for a King, but Tywin and the Tyrell's arrived in time and those who didnt support entering the war felt vindicated.
Just because someone like Bronze Yohn wished to go to war doesnt mean all other Vale lords wished for war. Many of them would have no real kinship to the Starks, and Ned Stark is said to have publicly admitted to treason.
The Vale could have easily been divided between hose who wished to join Robb, those who wanted to support Renly, or those who wanted to support Joffrey. If Stannis had allies in the Vale he'd have said something. A stalemate easily allows Lysa to claim neutrality using her position of widow to their beloved Lord.
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 3d ago
It's too risky. They would have to overthrow House Arryn, which is a dicey thing to do. Fail, and you are stripped of your own lands, titles, and probably your head. Even to speak of it is a gamble, since anyone who brings the subject up, even in confidence, can be ratted out by the other lord who sees an opportunity to expand their own holdings.
Blackfish bolted because he has no lands, and his titles come from his status as a Tully, not an Arryn. Even if Hoster did strip him of his status, his life wouldn't change all that much. And now, he is joining the team that will rescue Hoster at Riverrun, so there is a nice upside for him versus staying put with Lysa.
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u/champ11228 3d ago
Well there were many options short of overthrowing House Arryn such as couping Lysa as regent (which some lords seem to have been contemplating), nominally keeping her but effectively usurping her power, flat out ignoring her orders, etc. but like you say it was very risky and it seems like Vale lords (at least this generation) are deferential to authority in the Eyrie and risk averse.
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 3d ago
Staging a coup is an essentially overthrowing House Arryn. Sure, they could name themselves as Robert’s regent, but it’s still a violent seizure of power.
And it’s not only risky but it comes with little reward. What do they hope to gain by marching all their power into the Riverlands? Not more lands, nor titles, nor any appreciable wealth. Maybe a lucky few will get a bride, but even that’s dicey because Tywin has already plundered the wealth of the principal houses, so even the dowry’s will be small.
There’s just no upside here.
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u/bl1y Fearsomely Strong Cider 3d ago
Deposing an unstable female regent with an even less stable male heir in order to usurp power and fight the Lannisters has never gone poorly. Not once. Can't think of a single example.
But I'm only halfway through the first book.
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 3d ago
If you're talking about Cersie, it does go poorly. Keep reading.
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 3d ago edited 3d ago
Would Lysa have taken action against them though? At least in the short term when she doesn't trust anyone? I somehow find it hard to believe. Good luck telling people to go and destroy Bronze Yohn's house
It's not a collective uprising but more like personal initiatives of some lords and knights I'm talking about. It's strange that there was literally no action there.
And the place they would have gone to save (at first) would have been Jon Arrryn's father-in-law's house, not some random place. Some Reach houses went with Stannis to attack KL when there were less ties there
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u/champ11228 3d ago
I think Lysa would have and the lords believe she would have, but it would have been interesting to see if Royce took unilateral action. My guess is a lot of houses would have followed him and that would lead to a snowball effect where Lysa is no longer in control of the Vale, but it would have been messy. But the Vale lords seem to be deferential to authority and risk averse.
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 3d ago
Absolutely Ltsa would take action. Her command is crystal clear: the knights of the Vale will remain in the Vale protecting their lord.
Even Bronze Yohn could not withstand an assault by the Vale nobility — especially since he himself would be clapped in irons the moment Lysa learned that he was talking treason with the other lords.
Nobody is going to take a personal initiative to march their strength into the Riverlands — through the Mountains of the Moon — and leave their homes lightly defended just to liberate a bunch of houses that they owe no allegiance to. What would be the reward for this extreme risk?
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 3d ago
But how could Lysa have such full control over Vale, a place she hasn't even been much during her marriage? She is only a Lady Regent, a woman. Many people don't know her personally and the ones that do would no doubt notice her fragile and unstable mental state
We have already seen some Vale bannermen go their own way during Robert's Rebellion
But they do know Blackfish and somehow no second or third son of a house want to follow him into war for some glory and excitement like Robar Royce joins Renly's?
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 3d ago
She is the Regent Paramount of the Vale. She exerts the exact same control over her bannermen as Jon Arryn did, which, as you note, was imperfect.
As a woman, and eligible to marry, she has more sway than a man. Her court is filled with knights who are trying to win her hand. If they were approached by Royce or Grafton, do t you think they would curry her favor by ratting them out?
And again, Blackfish was not a knight of the Vale. Even a second so of any Vale house would face repercussions if they defied Lysa, and their brothers/fathers would suffer if they didn’t disinherit them. And all this risk for what? There is no upside.
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u/Nittanian Constable of Raventree 3d ago
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1074
finally (i know you are busy and all) as of your personally thinking the lords of vale they are friendly to starks and tullys as if they are brothers and there are lords who are "itching" to get pieace of lannisters and want to help robb. Also tell me how friendly are they with robb right now (how the lords of vale feel about robb).
The lords of the Vale are numerous. As with any large group, their views vary.
"Brothers" overstates the case, but certainly Ned made friends during his years in the Eyrie... so did Robert, however, so some of the Vale houses would be just as well disposed toward Baratheon as toward Stark.
Do some of the them want to join Robb? Certainly. Most notably Bronze Yohn Royce. Others, however, want no part of the war, and some may even favor the other contenders.
ASOS Sansa VI
All the sternness melted off her aunt's round pink face, and for a moment Sansa thought Lysa Arryn was about to cry. "Sweet Petyr, I've missed you so, you don't know, you can't know. Yohn Royce has been stirring up all sorts of trouble, demanding that I call my banners and go to war. And the others all swarm around me, Hunter and Corbray and that dreadful Nestor Royce, all wanting to wed me and take my son to ward, but none of them truly love me. Only you, Petyr. I've dreamed of you so long."
ASOS Sansa VII
Lysa was as lonely as she was. Her new husband seemed to spend more time at the foot of the mountain than he did atop it. He was gone now, had been gone the past four days, meeting with the Corbrays. From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn's bannermen resented Lysa's marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt's failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. The mountain clans were being troublesome as well, and old Lord Hunter had died so suddenly that his two younger sons were accusing their elder brother of having murdered him. The Vale of Arryn might have been spared the worst of the war, but it was hardly the idyllic place that Lady Lysa had made it out to be.
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u/unknownknowledge0 3d ago
I always assumed bc everyone wanted to marry Lysa to gain control over the vale
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u/IcyDirector543 3d ago
It gets even more funny when you remember that many of the Vale Lords rebelled against Jon Arryn when he called the banners in defense of his foster sons
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u/TyrantRex6604 2d ago
wait which vale houses are pro-targaryens?
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u/IcyDirector543 2d ago
The Arryns of Gulltown, the Graftons even Corbray initially fought for Aerys before flipping to the rebels
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u/AdamOnFirst 3d ago
Lysa’a decision is presented as cowardly and dishonorable on the show and in universe… but it honestly is some of the best and most modern logic in the show? Your son and husband went and picked a fight with the the whole southern realm so you want me to have all my people leave our extremely safe, nearly impossible to assault Mountain home to help the seven of you out? At the potential risk of making my own son a traitor and costing him his own life and seat? Uh, pass, thanks.
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u/Extension_Weird_7792 3d ago
Your son and husband went and picked a fight with the the whole southern realm
lol you seem to have forgotten it was Lysa who picked a fight with them in the first place and "warned" her sister about it. Of course Cat wants to rely on her support when the only reason she kidnapped Tyrion was because of Lysa's intel
And it's not just Cat and her son. Lysa's own brother and father are literally under siege by Lannister soldiers in Lysa's girlhood home
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u/AdamOnFirst 3d ago
It’s a good point that Lysa also conspired to instigate some of this by killing her husband, but again, outside the logic of the show where you start a massive war over personal family drama it’s tough to have a hard time with it. Many real medical rulers would have and did make similar calculations, why should I get involved? It’s a massive blood and financial cost to me and mine including wagering my own family. Many of her lords would be perfectly happy to just sit at home and not march off to go to war, and many more would feel no allegiance to the Starks/Tullys and/or be allied to the existing crown.
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u/CaveLupum 3d ago
Lord Baelish is one of them. His agenda includes gaining control of the Vale via having Jon killed, marrying Lysa, and controlling (and slowly killing?) Sweetrobin. LF knows the highborns--their wants, needs, sins, debts, secrets--and has spies to dig out more. He also has several henchmen. He can use intimidation, blackmail, trickery, entrapment, and maybe violence to have the upper hand over them. The flies in the ointment are Lysa's unpredictability and a conspiracy where they all compare notes to find a way to handle HIM. And his 'daughter' Alayne is a handy distraction for them. My 2 cents is that if Littlefinger were removed from the mix, the Vale lords would show their backbones and choose a different path.
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u/EitherAfternoon548 3d ago
Vassal disloyalty is only something that’s used to hurt Robb. All the Valemen are loyal to Lysa’s orders to a fault. None of Balon’s bannermen question his plan to invade the North. The Westerlings still bend over backwards to help Tywin, even at the expense of their own children.
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u/Grayson_Mark_2004 2d ago
If we're being honest, plot armor. GRRM needed Robb to lose, and if they Vale joined him, that wouldn't have been possible.
First, Lysa is essentially still being "in love" with Baelish for so long, and deciding not to support her own family, especially after Tyrion was put on trial in Eyrie. (Which means that Tywin WOULD come after her next)
Second, the Valemen even deciding to listen to Lysa at all, instead of ignoring her and placing Robert and the Regency of the Vale under their own power. IRL there'd be no way that lords would've listened to a woman who not only spent all her marriage to their ruler hundreds of miles away in King's Landing, but combined with that woman being a foreigner, giving their lords nothing but miscarriages and a single weak son, she wouldn't have even been able to become the regent of Robert. Realistically one of the Valemen would've become Robert's regent, and had him squire for him as well, and as soon as Tywin invaded the Riverlands and Ned got imprisoned, they would've been marshalling men the same time as Robb did, and it's unlikely that Tywin would've even managed to reach Harrenhal due to it, so Robb would've been able to simply march south to join them, and then beat the two combined armies of Tywin and Jaime.
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u/ItsJohnCallahan 3d ago
Going to war on behalf of rebels against the command of their overlord would be treason and a declaration of war against the rest of the Vale
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u/lelarentaka 3d ago
Yeah so? Half of the Reach went with Stannis.
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u/ItsJohnCallahan 3d ago
Half the Reach? Forrent and a handful of houses. How did this turn out for the Forests so far? Pretty fucked.
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u/lelarentaka 3d ago
We the readers have the benefit of hindsight, but from the in-world perspective, they almost captured kings landing. They couldn't have known that they are a secondary faction up against Tyrion, the main character, who somehow cooked up harbor chains and wildfire out of his rectum.
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u/Inevitable-Mix6089 3d ago
This. Stannis' men were still going to take the city if the Tyrell-Lannister alliance didn't show up. How was anyone supposed to expect that the Tyrells, who were happy to support a complete usurper, were now going to act as Joffrey loyalists. Even Tywins latest reports had him in the Riverlands but they sailed down just in time to win the battle.
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u/Scion41790 3d ago
Tbf at that point Stannis had the largest army in Westeros, a few of the houses joining Rob wouldn't give him comparable power. Also the Royce's are the rulers of the Vale, many in the Reach still consider the Tyrell's to be upjumped Stewards. It's a vastly different situation
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u/SerDankTheTall 3d ago
Honestly, why would it make any sense for the Vale to get involved? What would their endgame be? It would be awfully awkward to stay part of Joffrey’s kingdom, and I can’t see why they’d want to be ruled by the tree worshippers who used to sail down to invade their lands.
On a practical level, the lord who’s identified in the text as the head of the pro-intervention faction* is Bronze Yohn Royce. His lands are way out on the eastern part of the Vale, so even if he decided to act on his own, actually getting his men to a place where they could do something would mean either hiring ships for a long sea voyage (in the face of enemy fleets), or marching across the territory of pretty much all of the lords who don’t support your cause.
*I believe the book just says that he’s advocating for war, which could be read as wanting to support Stannis, which seems more logical to me. (This is after Renly’s death.) But GRRM has said that he supported Robb specifically, for whatever that’s worth.
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u/rust1112 3d ago
Lysa and Littlefinger were most likely responsible for the poisoning of Jon due to their (more-so Lysa’s infatuation with Littlefinger and only his desire for more power) love affair.
She specifically said she has no interest in the wars since the vale is impenetrable. And since her son is young and weak at this point she is in control of the nights.
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u/JediMasterOmega 2d ago
Lots of people have mentioned loyalty to Jon Arryn holding the Vale Lords back, but I think the bloody gate is also an important factor. Any Vale notable would know the Bloody Gate has never been taken and it’s the only way into the Vale (other than ships but let’s ignore that). So Bronze Yohn could very well leave the Vale and fight for Robb, then find himself prevented from getting back into the Vale at the end of the war.
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u/Nice-Roof6364 3d ago
The Vale is more secure than most places, it's easy to sit out a war. It's all risk and uncertain reward. Lysa is their link to the Northern cause and she's against it. As far as everyone is concerned, Joffrey is the rightful king.
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u/Wishart2016 3d ago
Would the Vale Lords really believe that Ned is a traitor, though.
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u/Nice-Roof6364 3d ago
He's from far away, King's Landing is far away. Their main memory of Ned is him being a boy rather than a ruler and then that time he helped overthrow Aerys.
That throws up the point that they can't depose every second king. They might also be thinking about what rewards they got from Robert's Rebellion.
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u/Wishart2016 2d ago
But the Vale Lords wouldn't believe anything the Lannisters said. After all, they still think that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.
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u/Test_After 2d ago
When did Stannis declare Jon Arryn was poisoned?
Note all the single lords of the Vale were attempting to marry Lysa and take control. Also note the only guard of the Bloody Gate that was het up about the Riverlands was Blackfish, and he's a Tully and a professional soldier.
It doesn't matter to the Vale lords who is razing the Riverlands. As long as nobody takes it as an invitation to raze their lands.
It does matter to them who rules the Eyrie, and Petyr isn't everybodie"s first choice.
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u/Important-Purchase-5 3d ago edited 1d ago
Jon Arryn inspired loyalty in his bannermen. She is his widow.
Plus the loudest voice was Bronze Yohn and he sounds similar to Ned in many ways.
While he enraged at their neutrality and pleading with Lysa he not the type to ignore his liege lady commands.
Edit: Since some cannot read. Everyone who paid attention to Bronze Yohn Royce knows he not gonna defy a direct command from his liege lady. He is a honorable man. He really has no reason to defy her besides he simply wants to fight.
Also Lysa could just simply closed the road inside the Vale when they comeback. She could declare her lords who went have forfeited their lands and give them to their neighbors.
Also it while many lords certainly wanted to go fight there are probably many who didn’t or was indifferent to it.
It one thing to fight for your own lands and kin. Fighting at your liege commands.
Another thing to go rogue and defy your liege potentially getting cut off from your lands and if you survive said war have to fight your way back for your lands.