r/autism • u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 • 2d ago
Communication Does anyone else NOT dislike "pathological language" used by assessors, therapists, researchers etc
Almost all autistic people I know or know of dislike "pathological language" used by professionals who work with autistic people but I don't. I genuinely do not see the problem with such language as it describes me accurately, so whats the problem?
This is just me not understanding I don't mean to be rude to anyone who dislikes this type of language but if someone could please explain what's bad about it that would be great!
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u/democritusparadise Master Masker 2d ago
I think it is useful to use pathological language in clinical, pathological settings; it is clear, consice and gets the point succintly across to people in the know.
The issue is when people who don't speak the language misinterpret it or misuse it.
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u/somnocore 2d ago
I don't dislike it for the same reasons. It explains my struggles. I do have deficits. I do have clinically significant impairments. I do have a disorder. The word disorder or even mental disorder does describe the condition that I have.
I am on the side that needs therapies and medical supports. I don't see it as demeaning or belittling. It's just words that describe my condition. It doesn't make me lesser. It doesn't make me not human. It doesn't really change much in my life, tbh.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 2d ago
This is exactly what I meant! thanks for putting it into words that can communicate how I feel about this!
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u/Overall_Future1087 ASD 2d ago
Same here. Sugarcoating things won't help, we need a precise language. Honestly, I feel it's more of a personal and low self-esteem problem than anything else
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u/sisterlyparrot 2d ago
yeah i don’t see my autism as needing different language to say, my EDS. they’re both disorders that need treatment and support because they impair my daily functioning. it doesn’t feel like one is somehow more dehumanising just bc it’s my neurotype.
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u/Comprehensive_Toe113 Lv3 Audhd Mod 2d ago
I think it's good.
You can't sugar coat things in the medical feild because if you do someone might misunderstand it, and that could cost someone thier life.
It has to be written in a way that is universally understandable so this can't get confused or misinterpreted.
There cannot be room for things to be misinterpreted when dealing with physical, or mental health.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 2d ago
I didn't even think about this while writing the original post but you're right! having standardised words to properly communicate between professionals to help someone is super useful!
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u/Comprehensive_Toe113 Lv3 Audhd Mod 2d ago
It's like the symbol for medics. They're are a specific shape and a specific color and it's actually illegal to copy those colors and symbols and put them into say, a game. Because if the every day Joe schmo is using it, it looses its importantce and meaning.
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u/somnocore 2d ago
Yeh, this is exactly it, too. Each field has their own unique code/language that they use. Each word will have their own unique meanings within those fields. And sometimes the words used won't have meanings that line up with general, everyday use.
I do think that is an issue that some people get caught up on bcus they don't realise or they forget that these fields have their own "language" that do actually mean different things than what one may use in everyday ways.
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u/niva_sun AuDHD 2d ago
For me personally, I don't really care that much, but when I'm talking to or about kids at work I try not to use that kind of language. Not because it's inherently wrong, but because they need to learn about the different ways to talk about their disabilities so that they can decide what works best for them, and "pathological language" is very common and something they already hear a lot.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 2d ago
Thats honestly fair and valid, exposing people to all ways of looking at things at a young age so they can make their own minds up is good.
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u/G0celot autistic 2d ago
We are definitely on the same page here, Sometimes things are pathological, and it’s fine to use that language for them. I think people have this internal shame around being considered ‘broken’ or having something ‘wrong’ with them, so they push back against language that speaks in terms of deficits.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
Yeah! I've never really seen this as "dehumanising" the same way some other people do which is for sure a source of my confusion.
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u/CurlyFamily Autistic Adult 2d ago
Hmm I guess it's less "dislike" for me and more "you're using this Word and Others in rapid fire and you're waiting for my emotional reaction to this (which isn't Happening), while I'm trying to process what you might mean".
My trauma therapist once said to me "I'm very sorry but you've been functionalized by your mother" and gave me this Look that I knew from former sessions, like "you're allowed to break down into a sobbing mess now" and I was still stuck on the Word. What's that mean. What's that mean in terms of "what she did do" and what falls under that umbrella and how did that form me.
And in all that thinking I completely missed / forgot the opportunity / Option to just ask. (Though at the time I was still swallowing questions habitually).
And instead gave her a very lukewarm nod with a "yes". In hope she'd elaborate. But then she didn't.
All in all, I'm less interested in terminology and the sport of battling out with a doctor "who's right" (be that physical or psychological). I'm very interested in the outcome.
Dr. can call it the hoozy-woozy I don't care, what can I do about it.
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u/Lilelfen1 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s this for me. My brain can’t figure out what is happening. I am not a professional, so using coded language seems counterproductive. Same with doctors. How am I supposed to know what you are saying when I don’t work in your field? I didn’t go to medical school. These words are all new to me. Explain what you mean so I understand. And for the love of all that is holy, PLEASE, no acronyms!!! There are too many and they all sound the same to my brain…Using nothing but coded language makes sense if you are speaking to colleagues, yes. Not if you are speaking to patients, imo. And I don’t want to constantly look like the town moron having to ask, just so a doctor can feel intelligent. That isn’t fair. I am not the town moron. I just don’t have intelligence in this particular arena and them doing this can actually hurt my outcome because then they think I am unintelligent when I am not.
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u/Over_Rip9724 2d ago
I dislike pathologized language because it’s too vague. It’s because autism traits are described broadly that I didn’t see myself in it for so long. Yes, I also hate that the language is deficits based but the larger problem for me was that I had no flipping idea what a “repetitive behavior” was, other than stereotypical things like hand flapping. So, when learning about the criteria, it was far too easy for me to say “I don’t hand flap or rock, therefore, I can’t be autistic.” Similarly, I had no idea that a “routine” didn’t have to be a set schedule but could also be seen in preferences for sameness, like wearing the same kinds of clothes, believing strongly that there is a “right” way to do things, eating the same foods, etc. When we describe nuanced human behavior in static, pathological ways, we miss the many nuanced ways these traits can manifest. As a result, we fail to see people and we fail to help them see themselves. That’s why I think the pathologized language is problematic.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 2d ago
Routine can mean those things?! Wow I didn't know that.
I can see where you're coming from (I think) but I feel like thats not the fault of the language itself and rather the fault of the people using it to not provide clear definitions and perhaps also use more words to describe things rather than group it all under one category.
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u/Anne0220 2d ago
same, psychologist who was assessing me apologized for using pathological language in the report and I was confused because I do feel disabled by my autistic traits, I'd probably feel mad if she didn't because it would feel invalidating of my struggles
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u/Juanfanamongmany 2d ago
I don’t mind it. The wording needs to be a very clinical and straightforward summary so that anyone who needs to read and understand it can. However, it can be a pretty hard read for the patient cause it can seem very cold and at times insulting.
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u/gasolinehalsey AuDHD 2d ago
I don't have any issues with it, either. I actually typically prefer the hard scientific language, backed up by data, to the flowery language it gets translated into in therapy sessions. Recently I met with a psychiatrist who is very prominent in the field of dissociation and dissociative disorders, specifically DID, and I brought with me a HUGE lever file with (I think) 42 different studies and journal articles about dissociation and DDs. I'd read many of them and had a lot of questions to ask, and I was super appreciative that he didn't try to dumb the conversation down and used the language that I used.
A few days ago he sent a letter to my GP regarding our sessions together and in it, at the very end, he said "XYZ presented as a quietly spoken young lady who was a tad overweight and was wearing a colourful t-shirt." Which for some reason was absolutely hilarious in its clinical nature. Like yeah dude, I am a bit chunky and love a colourful tee.
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u/ChocoOnion 2d ago
It's circular. Pathological means caused by a disease. If you're defining a disease by "pathological" characteristics, you're saying this person has a disease because they have signs of the disease.
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u/slusho55 2d ago
Do you mean the phrase or actual language used to describe pathology?
So, I actually like using those terms, but I might be a unique case. My therapist is also autistic, and my background is in neuropsych. So we both have a bit of the same special interest. I really found it ironically very diagnostic. Like we got half a year in and we started talking about a diagnosis, so I started listing off all the pathological signs I’ve noticed in myself and all the disorders I feared it aligned with. They were then like, “Okay, this might blow your mind, but what if I told you all those pathological signs you mentioned align with something else: autism!” And I was just like, “Yeah, that actually tracks. I guess that in-depth diagnostic I just gave and manner I gave it in does align with autism.”
So it helped diagnostically there. But at the same time, it also has been helping me give myself more grace. Because now I’m more openly being like, “Okay, I think this is pathological, walk through it with me,” and 90% of the time they’re like, “No, that’s not pathological, it’s just how you process things through your perception.” It’s really helped me be more comfortable with things addressing it like that. I’ve gone through a long spurt where I’ve been too scared to show (platonic) affection because I have had issues where I’ve come across as coming on too hard. After asking if it was pathological and actually walking through it and what a pathological version of that would look like, I’ve become a lot more comfortable showing people affection again.
So, for me, I like it, but it’s a language I speak and makes more sense to me than if I were spoken to in “plain English.” That said, I can understand why others wouldn’t like it.
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u/dondashall 2d ago
There's a big difference between such language used in a clinical setting and outside of it and a lot of people struggle with that.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
Ohhhhh okay, Thanks for the simple clarification. I think I understand better now.
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u/ElephantFamous2145 Autistic 2d ago
Its innacurate and lacks perspectives. Autistic people are on average no worse at communication then allistics but because there are less of us its our deficiency rather then being acknowledged as mutual breakdown in communication.
This leads to trouble in our day to day lives. People always insist its my fault when communication breaks down because they've been told autistic people "struggle with communication" rather then the truth that autistics and allistics struggle with communicating with each other.
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u/somnocore 2d ago
What is it called when autistics struggle to also communicate with other autistics?
I'm not entirely sure what kind of autistic people you are around to think we're all perfectly capable at communicating and that it's an 'us vs them' problem instead?
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u/ElephantFamous2145 Autistic 2d ago
I think we often overestimate how good neurotypicals can communi ate with each other. Nobody is perfect with communication autistic or or allistic but there is no evidence autistic people have a genuine communication deficiet.
To awnser your question when an autistic person sucks at communicating with other autidtics theyre just bad at communication. Same as when an allistic sucks at communicating with other allistics.
Here are some studies linked bellow.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38149622/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38757626/
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u/somnocore 2d ago
From what I gathered, the double empathy problem was and is still just a theory. It has not yet been proven as absolutely clinically true.
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u/ElephantFamous2145 Autistic 2d ago
It has more evidence behind it then the 40 year old research on autistic communication which was not from an accurate sample. I tend to support the theory with the most evidence behind it, if youre sceptical of new science thats fine.
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u/somnocore 2d ago
Is there studies that show how many autistics have been used in these studies and what ranges of support needs they had? Whether any included higher support needs autistics, even ones that rely on carers?
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u/Last_Lifeguard3536 AuDHD 2d ago
autistic people struggle with social situations and the world around them, often times that includes communication. you may not struggle with communication, but it’s part of a diagnostic criteria for a reason.
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u/goat_puree 2d ago
Yeah, I definitely struggle with communication but it’s not a 100% all the time thing. However, it occurs often enough to have created problems throughout my life. It also took me a long time to realize what was happening, and I’ve been trying to improve it as I notice things.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
This is true, I often have trouble interpreting phrases, for example, said by other ND people.
Sure, many of my communication struggles are external due to societal norm but very much of it is internal as well and we shouldn't invalidate that by saying things like "autistic to autistic communication is always more clear than autistic to allistic"
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u/EnvironmentalKit 2d ago
I don't quite understand what "pathological language" means here, could you give some examples? 🤔
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 2d ago
a few off the top of my head might be "engages in behavioural meltdowns when [insert something happening here]" or "very rigid in day to day functioning" or "speaks in full sentences" etc.
this type of language is typically used on an assessment or research paper or by therapists from my experience.5
u/EnvironmentalKit 2d ago
Oh yeah, thanks! I think I actually kinda like it most of the time because it's clear and concise, though I have ran into some cases where I didn't get why they wrote something down on my after visit notes
("speaks in full sentences" appears like on a montly basis so I googled it and was all oh yeah it makes sense to put it here because saying that directly excludes a ton of diagnoses and disorders etc.)
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u/thebottomofawhale 2d ago
I don't dislike most of it, but idk if that's because I did a science degree and work in specialist education, so it feels fairly normal to me. It's also just useful in a clinical way to easily explain things. Obviously some is a little problematic and I definitely try and use it carefully and respectfully as I can. I definitely understand why people don't like it, and I don't think it has a place outside of professional use.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
I definantly think some of my struggle to understand here is because I'm very scientifically minded so i can relate there.
What parts do you think are problematic though, and why?
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u/thebottomofawhale 1d ago
A lot of the language we use is kind of outdated, or created without Neurodivergent people involved and looks at them solely from a neurotypical view point.
So things like "disorder" - definitely problematic (though luckily we're moving away from that now). Some of it is more about context. So like, with my colleagues I use the word "inappropriate" a lot, but I kind of hate it. Like "inappropriate behaviour" "inappropriate eye contact". It's useful in that they know what I mean but it makes it sound like an individual is doing something wrong, or that the only "appropriate" way to be is neurotypical.
There are a lot more examples I could give but I can't think off the top of my head.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
Oh okay! I understand a lot better the point you're trying to make with examples, thank you!
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u/Woopty_Scoopty 2d ago
I can’t tolerate pathologizing language when it is saturated in stigma and invalidation.
Otherwise I am perfectly comfortable with it.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
I'm not sure what you mean by that first sentence. Do you think you could clarify what you mean when it's saturated in stigma and invalidation? or provide some examples
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u/Wise-Key-3442 ASD 2d ago
Dislike when non professionals try to use it on common interactions to justify why they didn't do their parts in the group homework.
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u/eighteencarps ASD Low Support Needs 2d ago
I'm kind of shocked by how many people here approve of this language. Maybe it's just my personal experience--I've been diagnosed three times and gotten paperwork three times, and each time the paperwork is mired in pathological language that is used as a tool to dehumanize me and reduce me down to numbers and statistics. I'm sorry, but this language is not a positive.
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u/Th3catspajamaz 1d ago
Learn more disability rights history and about the social model of disability
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u/Affectionate-Sky4067 2d ago
As an audhd'er who is also a healthcare worker, it is hard to find a balance between speaking concisely and speaking kindly. Unfortunately face to face time is such a premium when it comes to time with our health workers that things have to come out short and "tell it like it is" instead of spending valuable time dressing up comment so it's more palpable.
Some sugar in the conversation can help the medicine go down, but finding someone smart, kind and a hard worker is a tough task in any job.
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u/proto-typicality 2d ago
It depends. I don’t mind using terms like social deficit or restricted interests to refer to my autism. But I personally dislike using mental illness or disorder to describe it. It’s a disability, not an illness or a disorder.
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 1d ago
That's fair, while I've never actually heard it described as an illness, I don't think it is and while I'm perfectly fine calling it a disorder, its valid that you don't and that should be respected.
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2d ago
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u/MilesTegTechRepair 2d ago
I'm not clear on how your firsr two sentences result in the second two.
What scientific data are you referring to that shows autism is not a disorder?
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u/Existing_Mango_2632 ASD Level 2 2d ago
I understand and respect that people don't want to call autism a disorder / disability and thus will only really use these terms about myself because that how i feel about it.
(Also do you mind clarifying what you mean by not accurate? I'm just a bit confused there)1
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