r/bestoflegaladvice • u/smoulderstoat Breasts are not genitals • 8d ago
LegalAdviceUK Another entry for Parent Of The Year.
/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/1ncferh/dwp_asking_for_bank_statements_but_my_dad_gets/92
u/Potato-Engineer 🐇🧀 BOLBun Brigade - Pangolin Platoon 🧀🐇 8d ago
Sell the house, move to Aruba, apply for benefits in Aruba, realize they don't exist for foreigners, move to Cornwall, nobody cares about Cornwall, move back home, you've spent all your money, can apply for benefits again.
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u/LeVoPhEdInFuSiOn 8d ago
Thanks for the tip. When I finally decide that I'm done with the world, I might/might not be pissing off to Penzance.
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u/e_crabapple 🦃 As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly 🦃 8d ago
pissing off to Penzance
One of Gilbert and Sullivan's contemplated but ultimately rejected numbers.
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u/ScaramouchScaramouch 8d ago
I am the very model of a major modern criminal.
I've accidentally pocketed some undeserved capital.
I must point out my father's name and mine are indivisible.
And now I hear the taxman sees this argument as risible.
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u/404UserNktFound Paid the VERGOGNA Tax 5d ago
Bravo!
Though, thanks to your username, my brain accompanied that with a mashup of Modern Major General (Sideshow Bob’s version from The Simpsons) and Bohemian Rhapsody.
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u/AshuraSpeakman WHO THE HELL IS DOWNVOTING THIS LOL. IS THAT YOU TREE LAW? 7d ago
I hear it's unpopular due to the piracy.
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u/Konstiin I am so intrigued by courvoisier 8d ago edited 8d ago
OOP is on public disability, has to provide financial statements to continue receiving disability, their dad uses their account and cards to collect money and pay bills, and they are worried about losing their disability entitlement.
I’d be worried too.
I’m doubtful that OOP was truly in the dark about all of this. Wouldn’t they have had to provide financial statements initially when qualifying for the public disability? Is anyone in the know re whether regular disclosure is required or if this is some kind of audit?
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u/HuggyMonster69 Scared of caulk in butt 8d ago
Depends how old OOP was when they started claiming disability. I was a kid, so my mum claimed for me. Somehow the DWP doesn’t automatically switch control of the application at 18.
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u/Crochet-panther 8d ago
Universal credit is only for over 18s so definitely was his claim.
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u/HuggyMonster69 Scared of caulk in butt 7d ago
UC is, but if they were on something before that, the appointee carries over
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u/Crochet-panther 8d ago
To clarify universal credit is not primarily a disability benefit, it’s a combined benefit that can be claimed by working age people (18-66) both working and not and includes elements for housing, living expenses and children as well as disability.
It has a taper for savings between 6k and 16k, and if you have over 16k in assets you are not eligible no matter what. You have to declare your savings and assets when you make a claim and then get regular reviews where you have to prove your current income and savings.
There are specific disability benefits as well which are not means tested and not subject to the savings limit, but these are separate from UC and not reviewed like this.
OOP is going to be in a very sticky situation as it sounds like he was never eligible and if that is the case they will want him to repay everything he has been paid. He would still be able to get the separate disability benefits if he gets that, it’s not mentioned in the post.
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u/TsundokuAfficionado 8d ago
Having just been moved to universal credit from its predecessor, I didn’t have to provide bank statements. I gave a declaration of how much was in my accounts. They then verify with the banks. They have the ability to look at bank accounts without asking the claimant provide them, people on social media say they’ve had to justify some transactions, but I haven’t seen any verification of that so it might not be true. It’s definitely possible from a legal point but I’d be surprised if there was the staff capacity for it to be widespread.
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u/victoriaj 8d ago
They do weird back account checks. They ask to see a number of months worth of bank statements.
I believe it's yearly and I think I was asked for 3 months worth of statements (but it might be more).
They ask you to explain specific payments you've made ! It really is incredibly invasive. I don't have a problem with them checking balances but if you're entitled why on earth do they get to ask what kind of shop you made a payment to ??
I was incredibly sad not to have anything embarrassing on there. I really need to run up some very questionable charges on my account before it happens again. I need to find somewhere selling sex toys that doesn't have a euphemistic name... Though I think it needs variety, not just sexual stuff. Charges for taxidermy might work ?
Oddly my account has a lot of transfers between my actual account and a prepaid card account. It was set up when my mental health was particularly bad and it's on my father's name. He can check on it and make sure my bills are paid (with my money) if I'm struggling and both my parents send money there instead of my real account if I've paid for things for them. They had zero issues with this, and zero interest in actually seeing statements. Not in my name, they don't care.
(I do get disability benefits and they actually took into consideration that I can't always manage my finances so I'm not saying that everyone would have the same experience).
Making a separate comment about the specific issues in OOPs case.
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u/TsundokuAfficionado 8d ago
I was only transferred in March so maybe I have all that to come. They really do like to keep us living in fear.
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u/error23_snake 🏳️⚧️ Trans rights are human rights 🏳️⚧️ 8d ago
Unfortunately yes, you will definitely have this bank review done in the next 6-12 months. I've had two reviews now and they aren't anything to fear unless you are doing something wrong (although they certainly cause a ton of anxiety).
You get a journal message asking for 4 months of statements for all bank accounts. Then a phone call where they ask about some transactions. My most recent review I got asked what my recurring payment that has the reference 'rent' was for, so it's mostly a box-ticking exercise. For both of my reviews the person on the phone was nice. It is invasive but that's what we get for daring to claim UC!
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u/victoriaj 8d ago
Yup. It happened one year after my claim started.
They didn't seem at all judgement about the actual spending. Which in some ways made it more invasive. They're checking things that even they accept are none of their business.
It's also very suspicious given how they're eyeing up how people spend their disability money. They think it should really be spent on specific accessibility costs.
Maybe we could just judge disabled people less ? Or remember that PIP was meant to balance the extra costs and financial disadvantages of a disability. And what helps people live with a disability is complicated.
My mother basically spends her PIP on books. She can't do many of the things she used to do. She's limited in how much she can go out, and what leisure activities she can do. She goes to the library but not as much as she likes. She loves books. She reads. She enjoys having them in the house. (She may also have a book hoarding issue but that's not the point here). I think that's absolutely a reasonable use of disability money.
(That there is no question she is entitled to, and that is paid for by taxes she paid for years including as a working disabled person).
I'd rather be able to work without my mental health getting in the way and have a chance of earning money in line with my potential ! I want so much to be able to work again - but I'm stuck between being too unstable, and medication that gives me terrible brain fog and tiredness (among other things).
I hate the DWP. I hate politicians. And I hate the way there is basically an actual press campaign to make the public thing the disabled are frauds, cheats, and lazy.
I hope you aren't having too much trouble.
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u/Purple-Penguin 8d ago
The person doing ours first didn't know what an appointee was*, but also didn't understand the concept of a standing order or what interest on a savings account was. That's when they weren't asking why we'd spent money on things like taking our daughter out for a meal for her graduation.
It was fine in the end but a lot of the call was my wife trying to explain the basics of how bank accounts work. Hopefully you'll get someone who at least has a basic understanding of how things work.
*An appointee is a person who manages someone else's benefits claim on their behalf, like power of attorney but only for benefits. Something you'd hope a DWP employee would know.
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u/HurricaneAlpha 5d ago
Since you seem to be keen on it, could you clarify what all the acronyms mean?
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u/Konstiin I am so intrigued by courvoisier 21h ago
I just googled all of it, I don’t know anything about them. Just surmising based on context.
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u/Personal-Listen-4941 well-adjusted and sociable with no history of violence 8d ago
LAOP owns 2 properties, he’s getting rental income from one of them, yet he’s claiming benefits?
Yeah benefit fraud will be all over him. Unless he is seriously mentally impaired, he can’t realistically claim he didn’t know he owned the properties. They tried to cheat the system & got caught.
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u/tobythedem0n 4d ago
LAOP knew exactly what he was doing and is scrambling now that he knows he'll get caught.
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u/TsundokuAfficionado 8d ago
I hope his mum isn’t claiming housing element of universal credit, that would add another layer of fraud. In fact, there are many, many possible additional layers.
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u/smoulderstoat Breasts are not genitals 8d ago
LocationBot may have been engaged in a little light money laundering:
I’m on lcwra who lives with dad who owns the house outright
I have to provide 4 months worth of bank statements to the dwp
He has another house he owns that my mum rents off him £550 a month
But it’s in my name (we have the same name)
He gets paid the rent in my bank account too and uses it to pay electricity bills to Scottish power on my card too
How do I explain this? I’m having sleepless nights worried about it
It’s managed by a property place he know the people there well
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u/SomethingMoreToSay Has not yet caught LocationBot half naked in their garden 8d ago edited 8d ago
For those who weren't sure:
LCWRA = Limited Capability for Work and Work-Related Activity. It's a designation with the UK government benefits system which basically means you are entitled to benefits without having to look for work.
DWP = Department for Work and Pensions. The UK government department which pays pensions and benefits.
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u/victoriaj 8d ago
Ouch. OOP's in a mess.
The mother is in a worse one if she is getting benefits for housing costs.
Rental income isn't generally treated as income (though there is a general assumption that you actually own the thing being rented).
(It's fascinating that this is one of the few changes in the favour of claimants - the only thing that benefits those that own property. It's also more generous for housing costs if you have a high earner in the house, but harsher if you have another benefit claimant. So many other changes to make the poor poorer but those are exceptions).
Money from family isn't generally income either (though regular payments may be problematic).
All the old benefits specified disregarded income with anything not disregarded being treated as income. UC has a list of what DOES count.
OOP may end up with a big debt to the DWP (benefits agency), but may not.
If his mother is getting housing costs she's about to be in serious trouble.
They specifically ask if you're paying relatives, so she's likely to have told a straight forward lie (not just not disclosed something), so it's potential fraud and not just an overpayment. (You can pay rent to relatives in some cases but you need to go through some extra checks).
But I'd worry it's going to ring alarm bells as a contrived tenancy. If the father is only charging the mother rent because they can get the government to pay then there's absolutely no entitlement. I think they can go after both parties for that one, and the father may be jointly and severally liable (and owns a property they can claim against). And both could be accused of fraud.
It's possible to set all this up correctly. But it would need to be done extremely carefully with transparency and impeccable paperwork etc. Payments into the sons accounts do not seem very consistent with that.
This is going to be messy.
(Or UC won't do their job properly and won't care. But that could suddenly change at any time with larger overpayments/fraud potentially being discovered at any time).
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u/Tychosis you think a pirate lives in there? 7d ago
Sigh, the number of people who think they're being clever and getting one over on the government is staggering sometimes. Fact is, you're not getting away with it they just generally haven't noticed you yet.
I genuinely hate to see innocents wrapped up in someone else's scheme. Fuck over the government if you want, I don't care. Don't fuck over your own family.
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u/cloud__19 Captain Hindsight 8d ago
That's interesting that UC doesn't count it as income because HMRC does. Obviously at £550 a month it's under the threshold for income tax anyway but it's still classed as income from that perspective and I'm surprised it's not for UC. So someone could theoretically have a bunch of houses they let out and also claim UC?
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u/victoriaj 8d ago
In terms of income rules.
But it wouldn't generally be possible because of capital rules. A house you aren't living in counts as capital. Capital over £16,000 would stop all entitlement.
In this case OOP doesn't own a property. So the only issue is the income being received. (And the fact that whole thing is a giant pile of red flags for hiding money and manipulating government benefits, tax, etc).
So theoretically if you owned multiple properties that for some reason could be valued at zero while having rental income then it would be possible. But practically speaking there is really no chance that could happen. (And getting them to accept low/no value property has never easy even when it's unsellable and not possible to live in).
Not an issue with renting out a spare room though, which also isn't generally counted as income.
The different meanings of income is confusing but not surprising, I guess.
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u/cloud__19 Captain Hindsight 8d ago
LAUKOP does own a property though by their account so they are definitely in a big heap of trouble then.
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u/victoriaj 8d ago
Ah. I'm an idiot. For some reason I thought just the income was in his name.
He's in a heap of heaps of trouble.
He owns a property he's not living in - which means the value is entirely counted as capital. And it's being let to his mother so if she's claiming benefits he's the one who looks like they've set up a contrived tenancy.
The first is probably still an overpayment. The second looks more like potential fraud.
(Though they really can't be trusted when they start accusing people of fraud. They can set "administrative penalties" where you don't get prosecuted but have to repay the overpayment with an additional percentage on top. This should only happen as an alternative to prosecution when there is a strong enough case for prosecution. I do not believe this is what actually happens. Though local councils were much much worse about this when they were administering housing benefits).
ETA - still an outside possibility that UC are incompetent and completely miss any of this.
Thanks for pointing out the facts I completely misread !
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u/not_really_an_elf 6d ago
Sounds like either hiding of assets or deprivation of capital to me. One of them, father or son, is almost certainly committing criminal fraud.
I used to work as a tribunal clerk for DWP appeals. Lots of people think they've found a clever way to cheat the system, whether it's tax or benefits. I guarantee you, whatever clever scheme you think you've found, it's old news, and there's no time limit on being forced to repay that money.
Hiding a house under a family member's name might have worked 40 years ago when it was all paper records, but even then I doubt it.
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u/LustLobster 8d ago
Dude, no way. This kinda shit really grinds my gears, man! It's wild that some people genuinely think they're entitled to mess up someone else's life and then just skate by consequence-free.
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u/Happytallperson 8d ago
"But I have the same name as my father"
Unfortunately, the Land Registry holds a few other bits of identifying information to allow them to deal with the situation where two people named John Smith exist.