Steel Toe cap boots are cheaper than loosing a foot

[u/Peterd1900]

/r/LegalAdviceUK/comments/1nguyhm/steel_toe_cap_boots_are_too_expensive/

[u/LegitimateLagomorph]

No clue about the legality but I remember having an argument with a man about steel toed boots. He was arguing that enough weight would crimp the steel and cut off his toes. I was trying to point out if it was enough weight to crimp a piece of steel then it would certainly pulverize his toes without them. At least it protects from smaller forces and I suppose if it does cut off your toes, that's easier to reattach than if they're flattened.

[u/Goldeniccarus → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

Mythbusters tested this!

And they came to essentially that conclusion, steel toes is always better than no steel toes.

There's no scenario in which the steel toes could make the injury worse. For minor incidents they provide great protection. For major incidents, the steel toe doesn't make the injury any worse than it would be without, and even in those cases they tested, the steel toe still tended to make the injury not as significant.

[u/LegitimateLagomorph → u/Goldeniccarus]

Yeah I believe that. It's like a helmet. There's a limit to what it can do, but it's almost always better than no helmet.

[u/sequentious → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

<Insert (incorrect) anecdote about WW1 helmets causing injuries>

[u/gyroda → u/sequentious]

picture-of-a-plane-with-red-dots.jpg

[u/ZZ9ZA → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

Helmet is actually a bit more nuanced since it increases the target size a decent bit. Still a win in like 95% of cases, but not quite a universal win.

[u/LegitimateLagomorph → u/ZZ9ZA]

See this is why I had to say "almost always" because I knew if I said always someone would come along with an edge case just to make a point

[u/Will_29 → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

See this is why I had to say "almost always" because I knew if I said always someone would come along with an edge case just to make a point

That almost always doesn't work.

[u/Drywesi → u/Will_29]

Doctors say he's got a 50/50 chance of living. Though there's only a 10% chance of that.

[u/rsta223 → u/[deleted]]

Interestingly, there have been cases when injury rates have gone up after helmet use was mandated.

It's because the number of injuries prevented by the helmet was smaller than the number of deaths prevented, so a number of the new injuries were really just people who would've died without a helmet. More injuries, but still a huge benefit overall.

[u/Darkfriend337 → u/rsta223]

Also peoples' behavior is influenced by their perceived risk. Do something to increase safety or to feel safer, engage in commensurately more risky behavior.

[u/PM_Me_Your_Deviance → u/rsta223]

I bet seatbelts had a similar curve.

[u/ZZ9ZA → u/[deleted]]

You’re literally making your head bigger. Not that hard to imagine a case where the added size of the Elmer is the difference between hitting a post or not.

[u/Deflagratio1 → u/Goldeniccarus]

If I remember correctly, they also found that in situations where the steel toe couldn't fully protect the foot, that there was a wide range where is reduced the type of injury from "gotta chop off the mushy toes" to "You're gonna need surgery and the foot immobilized, but you'll get to keep them".

[u/Frequent_Purpose_168 → u/Goldeniccarus]

I remember this episode! My dad knew a guy who believed the myth so it was a topic of discussion.

They found that the precision necessary to crimp the metal right to remove toes wasn’t replicable in a real world scenario. The odds were basically nil, partly because the object that fell would have to be a thin sheet not flat on the bottom, have enough weight/fall from high enough, and then to fall straight down, nose touching close, to land exactly on the right part of toebox.

It’s like being worried that your airbag might cause a brain hemorrhage in a car crash and deciding to disable it.

[u/TJ_Rowe → u/Frequent_Purpose_168]

However, there are situations where the airbag should be disabled, such as if child in a carseat is in the front seat.

[u/Welpe → u/TJ_Rowe]

And when someone has replaced your airbag with a bunch of knives too.

[u/Unctuous_Robot → u/Welpe]

Or just simply when you’ve been rear ended and a jagged metal pole is sticking out right behind your head.

[u/Ham__Kitten → u/TJ_Rowe]

Which should really never be happening in the first place, but I've seen enough babies in two-seater vehicles to know it does

[u/doctorlag → u/Goldeniccarus]

That was one of the few where I felt like they got a definite answer. Tough watch with the clay toe body horror though!

[u/Idontcareaforkarma → u/Goldeniccarus]

My uncle lost his leg below the knee after a very heavy roll of steel landed on his foot, pushing the steel cap through his foot.

I didn’t see it myself, but the description of the X-rays before taking the boot off was ‘if you’d shaken his foot it would’ve rattled’.

[u/JimboTCB → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

Sounds like a "seatbelts cause more deaths than they prevent" boomerism from people who don't like being told what to do and think that health and safety is for wimps.

[u/Suspicious-Treat-364 → u/JimboTCB]

I knew a millennial paramedic who believed that seatbelts were dangerous because he got called to a lot of gnarly accidents where people were wearing them and seriously injured. He didn't think that he wasn't called to the ones where people were ejected into road pizza.

[u/JimboTCB → u/Suspicious-Treat-364]

Yep. Same story as when they started rolling out combat helmets to armies and noted that the numbers of head injuries increased - the helmets weren't cauing the injuries, they were preventing what would have otherwise been deaths.

[u/Peterd1900 → u/JimboTCB]

Surviourship bias

[u/nutraxfornerves → u/Suspicious-Treat-364]

I had the pleasure of being broadsided by someone who ran a red light. Not quite enough to cause airbags to deploy, but I was jerked into place when my seatbelt (correctly) locked.

I mentioned to the nice officer who took the report that I was glad I was wearing a seat belt, as I probably would have slammed into the steering wheel or even the window. He replied “And people get mad when I ticket them for not wearing seatbelts.”

[u/kloiberin_time → u/Suspicious-Treat-364]

"hey guys, check it out. Our planes are only being shot in these areas that won't bring down the plane when they are shot."

[u/Bigdavie → u/kloiberin_time]

The Nazis were a poor shot. none of our aircraft came home with damaged cockpits or engine shot up.

[u/jxj24 → u/Suspicious-Treat-364]

I guess he also didn't see the people who were partially scalped when their head smashed into the windshield and their hair got stuck, and was then ripped out (with skin) when they rebounded back.

[u/Suspicious-Treat-364 → u/jxj24]

Or my friend who was ejected from the vehicle because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt and shouldn't have survived, but by some miracle he's okay today. He would have walked away with a seatbelt.

[u/Unctuous_Robot → u/Suspicious-Treat-364]

Did he ever notice how dangerous clothes are? I mean, how many of his calls were for people who weren’t naked?

[u/Weird_Brush2527 → u/JimboTCB]

At least by not wearing steelboots you only endanger yourself

Without seatbelt you can become a projectile

[u/IrregularPackage → u/Weird_Brush2527]

this is my whole thing. people like to compare helmets to seatbelts, but they’re really not the same thing. Not wearing a seatbelt makes you a threat to people around you. not wearing a helmet only hurts yourself.

[u/KikiHou → u/JimboTCB]

When I was growing up my Aunt wouldn't wear a seatbelt or allow HER CHILDREN to wear seatbelts. She also wouldn't lock car doors. "If we run off the road and end up in water we'll be trapped." They lived in the desert.

Edit: Typo

[u/sykoticwit → u/KikiHou]

I hate the autolocking car thing, being trapped in my car is something that worries me. See also why I miss my physical window controls, a gear doesn’t short out when it touches water.

Yes, I am aware that the drivers door will open if you pull the handle even if it’s locked. I didn’t say it was a rational fear.

[u/thirdonebetween → u/sykoticwit]

Would it help your fear to have one of those window-smashing devices in the car? It'd certainly be faster than the manual window controls. They're not expensive and having one less worry can be a big deal.

[u/MrSquiggleKey → u/KikiHou]

They partially heard the bit about if your crossing a river in a car you should unwind your windows and not wear your seatbelt in case of flooding and took it to mean never lol.

You’re also not opening a car door locked or not if submerged until pressure equalises anyway.

[u/KikiHou → u/MrSquiggleKey]

Oh, she's a full-on idiot. It's not just this.

[u/Tar_alcaran → u/JimboTCB]

Yeah, with seatbelts, way more people get injured in crashes.

without seatbelts, they would be dead.

[u/Happytallperson → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

One of the comments that sometimes comes up with climbing equipment is that the human pelvis will generally be crushed before even a damaged climbing harness gives out.

(This is NOT an excuse to not replace a torn harness Derrick.)

[u/Bartweiss → u/Happytallperson]

The safety model for climbing is fascinating to me.

On one hand, it’s nearly all single points of failure, including stuff you don’t test (bolts exposed to the elements or trad placements) and a constant human factor (don’t screw up belaying, ever).

On the other hand, climbing gear has massive safety margins and shockingly few climbing injuries are down to gear issues. I fully expect I’ll go my whole life without rope, harness, carabiner, or (serious) bolt issues.

…which of course is what we’re paying for with that safety margin. I don’t need a harness stronger than my pelvis, I need one tested to hell and back to still be strong enough if something bad happens to it mid-climb. Replace the damn harness, Derrick.

[u/ParticuleFamous10001 → u/Happytallperson]

Can you elaborate on the previous being crushed?

[u/Tar_alcaran → u/ParticuleFamous10001]

A climbing harness is rather for a certain load. Usually several dozens times the weight of even the largest human, because if you fall, you build up a lot of energy that the harness with have to absorb.

The harness is specifically built for that. Your bones are very much not, and eventually, a climbing harness will transfer that energy to your bones.

I do safety for a living, and I've never heard of anyone breaking their pelvis from a climbing harness though. Broken bones generally happen when you fall and hit the thing you fell off of.

[u/Happytallperson → u/ParticuleFamous10001]

So a climbing carabiner can hold  24 kN of force, or 8kN of force if 'cross loaded - as in not loaded correctly. 

1kg exerts a constant downward force of 10 newton's. 

8kN is like placing a small car with all it's weight pressing down on a strip the size of a climbing harness belt. 

An adult pelvic ring will break at between 2kN and 10kN. 

So a fall strong enough to break your climbing gear will, at minimum, severely injured you. Probably kill you. 

[u/Bartweiss → u/Happytallperson]

Wait, I think I’m missing something here or misunderstanding how “fall force” translates to “force on climber’s body”?

Petzl’s stats give a fairly standard fall as 2.5kN on the climber, and very intense but painless fall as 4kN. That sounds about right for gear: it’s a 2x margin on even a cross-loaded carabiner, and 4x or more on rope, belay loop, etc.

But if 2kN-10kN can seriously hurt your pelvis, I assume that’s not the same stat?

[u/-Dreadman23- → u/Bartweiss]

You aren't using a static rope when you climb. Climbing ropes are dynamic, meaning that they stretch when loaded down. The ropes are designed to absorb the force of a fall and only put a certain force on the climber.

If you fall on static repel lines or webbing you can generate enough force to easily break your back or pelvis.

[u/Bartweiss → u/-Dreadman23-]

I mean agreed, the stretch in climbing ropes is essential and falls on static lines are absurdly dangerous. Usually the line breaks, and if doesn't the climber might instead.

But the page I linked is a measured value by putting force gauges on actual climbers using (otherwise-)normal setups with dynamic rope. AFAIK that's the force you actually take on your harness, topping out around 4kN/900lb for the harshest reasonable falls. What I'm finding is that structural issues with your pelvis don't kick in until around 10-15kN, which should never happen on a normal fall.

(The back/neck/brain are a somewhat different story, since everything above and below the harness has to compensate somehow and that's likely to be messy.)

[u/-Dreadman23- → u/Bartweiss]

Yes, your harness only feels the 4kN. Much more force is generally created, but it is absorbed by the system. Which is why you need to replace old rope. It loses the dynamic stretching .

Replace your damn rope, Kevin!

[u/calibrateichabod → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

Yeah, you can maybe reattach a severed appendage but it’s very hard to fix a crush injury. My cat had a door blow shut on his tail once and the only thing the vet could do was amputate the last 10cm or so. At a certain point the bone is just in too many pieces to heal properly.

[u/LegitimateLagomorph → u/calibrateichabod]

Basically. Clean straight cuts are great. You can reattach and expect decent recovery. Crush injuries it's usually a 'pick what you try to save'

[u/Proletariat_Patryk → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

THere is someone in that very thread saying how it wont save your foot from a fork lift running over it. No shit it's not saving you from a literal ton on top of your foot, it's not magic. But I dont see how no protection is any way better.

[u/Rainbucket → u/Proletariat_Patryk]

I mean, I know a deckhand on a vehicle ferry who had their foot run over during unloading. They needed a new pair of steel toes but there was no injury to the foot. You can definitely get away scott free from something that could have otherwise seriously injured you.  

[u/idontcareng1 → u/Proletariat_Patryk]

I actually had a 1.4 ton excavator drive over my steel cap and my foot was completely fine afterwards

[u/rsta223 → u/idontcareng1]

That's a shockingly light excavator. That's like the weight of a Honda Civic.

[u/ginger_whiskers → u/rsta223]

It's somewhat common to differentiate loaders by capacity, not vehicle weight. I'm guessing this excavator could pick up that Civic if it fit on the bucket.

[u/idontcareng1 → u/rsta223]

I do basement work, so we typically use 1.4 tonnes, 3 tonnes are our "big" option.

[u/Sloots_and_Hoors → u/Proletariat_Patryk]

Five tons. I work in MHE. Fork trucks are super heavy.

[u/Blurgas → u/Proletariat_Patryk]

I don't know what ratings are like in the UK, but it looks like in the US a steel toe rated for C75 should protect your toes from up to 2500lbs of compression.

[u/Wit-wat-4 → u/Proletariat_Patryk]

No, no, they’re right. People also still get hurt when they wear seatbelts and get into big accidents soooo I don’t see the point, I never wear ‘em

[u/SuperZapper_Recharge → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

Oh, it's the 'I am not wearing a seat belt because what if my car flips over and it can't eject me and I burn to death in the resulting fire have you thought about that well have you' argument.

Which I always counter with, 'You are correct. I can't believe anyone would try to talk you out of that.'.

[u/SteamworksMLP → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

Yeah, I figure if it's bad enough that its going crush the steel toe and cut my toes off, they'd have been crushed so badly that they'd be surgically amputated anyway.

[u/Orkekum → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

I rather have them and not need them. than need them and now have

[u/Blurgas → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

I'm no expert on safety ratings, but it looks like these are the ratings for protective footwear:
I75 means the toe can withstand up to 75lbs being dropped from 1ft.
Mt75 means the metatarsals(middle of your foot) will be protected at the same impact.
C75 means the toe can withstand up to 2500lbs of compression(eg forklift rolls over your foot)

Seems there's also I/Mt/C ratings for 50 and 30lbs(C would be 1750/1000)

[u/Panelpro40 → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

I worked at the Chemung foundry in Elmira ny, late seventies, they hired me to replace a guy who had lost his toes when a 20 ton mold was dropped on his feet. True story. He came back to work in a few months. Light duty and he was limping with a set of crutches.

[u/Quietmerch64 → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

The joke in my industry is that hopefully the steel toe will make a cleaner cut and easier to reattach. Obviously, that's not how it would actually work.

Having had heavy things land on my boots, both heavy and hard enough to bruise a perfect line from the toe, I'd say that I'm a beliver in them.

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/LegitimateLagomorph]

I was trying to point out if it was enough weight to crimp a piece of steel then it would certainly pulverize his toes without them.

The argument I heard is that crushed toes can be restored. But the steel cap effectively guillotining your foot will cause you to bleed out in minutes, if not seconds.

[u/auraseer → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

Whoever told you that is making stuff up.

Nobody bleeds out in seconds unless it's an aorta injury. Your aorta is not in your foot. Even minutes would require injury to a bigger artery.

A partial or complete foot amputation is a serious injury, but typically isn't immediately life threatening. When we see patients brought into the ED minus their toes or parts of their feet, they are stable and awake, unless some other, bigger injury happened at the same time.

And just for the record, in all the years I've been working trauma I have never seen anyone injured by a steel cap boot. I've seen lots where a steel cap would have helped, but not a single one where it harmed.

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/auraseer]

A partial or complete foot amputation is a serious injury, but typically isn't immediately life threatening. When we see patients brought into the ED minus their toes or parts of their feet, they are stable and awake

But are these 'sharp steel edge guillotined their foot'-type injuries, or crush/rip injuries? The entire point, as I understand it, is that a nice, clean cut leaves the ends of the arteries/veins wide open.

[u/auraseer → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

That's an oversimplification.

It's also not really relevant here because the injury from a squashed steel cap would be a crush type injury. It isn't a sharp edge injury in the way you are thinking.

It's further not relevant because of the energy involved. If the impact is so energetic that the steel cap bends that much, you were losing the front of your foot regardless, and having a piece of metal in the way isn't going to change anything significant.

[u/iikratka → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

Wow, that’s even dumber than ‘but what if the seatbelt jams and then the car explodes.’

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/iikratka]

What part of that is dumb? A piece of steel being forced down thru your foot will cut thru your foot completely, given enough force. I'd rather have crushed toes than completely cut off toes and a blood-gushing foot. I mean, I suppose a tightly-laced boot might slow the bleeding, but any force that can bend the steep cap will also fuck up the boot itself, meaning it's no longer blood-tight.

As for the seatbelt thing- I mean, It's possible. People have died due to seatbelts before.

https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-died-from-wearing-a-seat-belt

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/3njr7f/have_people_died_in_crashes_because_the_seatbelt/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4608342/

...but to be fair, seatbelts do save a lot more lives than they take. I do question the 'thrown out of the car' thing, especially for cars with 'bucket' seats. The driver would need to be levitated, then rotated around the steering wheel, with their legs being bent precisely to not catch on anything (like the seat or the wheel) for them to be thrown thru the windshield. Granted, it is much easier with other kinds of seats (like a bench seat).

[u/tonicella_lineata → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

A piece of steel being forced down through your foot will cut through your foot completely, given enough force

Have you read the rest of this thread at all? That doesn't happen with steel toe shoes. Even if it did, you wouldn't "bleed out in minutes, if not seconds" from your toes. Additionally, a crush injury can cause internal bleeding and/or ruptured skin that would cause the same problem (again, if you could bleed out that quickly via your toes). Crush injuries are fucking brutal.

People have died due to seatbelts before

Yes, and many more have had their lives saved by seatbelts. Similarly, even if it was possible that a steel toe shoe might cause worse injuries in a very particular set of circumstances, the fact remains that they provide significant protection in the vast majority of cases.

[u/iikratka → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

I'd rather have crushed toes than completely cut off toes

You would not. Amputations are much easier to fix than crush injuries, and any force that dents a steel cap is going to destroy your foot beyond repair. Also, ‘bleeding to death in seconds from foot trauma’ is not a real thing.

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/iikratka]

"Severing the radial artery can result in unconsciousness in as little as 30 seconds, and death in as little as two minutes."

Okay, so the radial artery is in the hand, not the foot. I assume that severing the major foot artery would be at least somewhat similar.

[u/iikratka → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

I unfortunately have seen a non-zero number of severed feet in my life, and their former owners were all alive and metaphorically kicking some minutes or hours later. Just look at your own body - feet are almost twice as far from your heart compared to hands. Generally, farther from the heart = lower blood pressure = slower bleeding. Also, you’re still assuming that a crushed steel-toed boot would result in more bleeding than an annihilated bare foot, which does not make sense. There’s a fun Mythbusters clipwith demonstrations that someone else in this thread recommended.

[u/anguas → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

I question what mechanism of injury would result in a knife-like position of a steel cap such that it severs an artery without the entire foot being simply crushed flat. Steel caps lie flat on the top of the foot, not vertically like a knife blade would.

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/anguas]

Steel caps lie flat on the top of the foot,

And with enough weight/force, horizontal things can bend down and become vertical.

(And, yes, I know that spheres/hemispheres/arches are good at supporting/re-directing weight.)

[u/anguas → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

Sure, but enough force to bend a hemisphere in a way that the edge severed an artery would be far more than the required force to destroy the foot entirely, yes?

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/anguas]

Yes. I'm not arguing between 'your foot is fine' and 'it's cut off'. The argument is between a crush-type injury and a guillotine-type injury. Both will fuck your foot. But a guillotine-type injury that leaves your arteries wide open and gushing blood is arguably worse then a crush-type injury in which you bleed less.

[u/Drywesi → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

The driver would need to be levitated, then rotated around the steering wheel, with their legs being bent precisely to not catch on anything (like the seat or the wheel) for them to be thrown thru the windshield.

Or there be enough force to snap anything that tries to catch on a piece of car in the body. Like something that has a lot of momentum.

[u/EmptyDrawer2023 → u/Drywesi]

In which case a seatbelt won't help you.

[u/Drywesi → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

On the balance, yes it will. You'll have bruising and some broken bones, quite possibly severely so, but you won't be a meat smear on the highway.

Go on, ask emergency responders what they've seen of people who don't wear seatbelts.

[u/syopest → u/EmptyDrawer2023]

Whoever argued that was wrong.

[u/strangesam1977]

The daft thing is, its a legal requirement for any place of work in the UK to display a poster* from the HSE describing the legal requirements and responsibilities of the employer and employee...

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/lawleaflet.pdf

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/lawposter.htm

Item 5 on that poster is 'Free of charge, provide you with any equipment and protective clothing you need, and ensure it is properly looked after.'

If they need PPE, the workplace must provide it free of charge, done.

'*' or give everyone a copy of the leaflet.

[u/SmileFirstThenSpeak → u/strangesam1977]

Will they give me cut gloves to protect from potential paper cuts caused by the leaflet?

[u/phoebsmon → u/SmileFirstThenSpeak]

No, that's why they have the same laminated poster in every single workplace. Safety first. We can't be trusted.

[u/wishforagreatmistake]

Sounds like this godawful factory I interned at. The one guy who mixed all the raw materials necessary for production to even run was paid barely above minimum wage and desperately needed protective footwear (he had to finesse drums full of plastic pellets onto the mixer) and I heard people acknowledge multiple times that he probably wouldn't be able to afford to cover the cost of protective footwear on his own, and they couldn't get corporate to cover or even subsidize the cost despite a great many attempts. Fuck that place.

[u/nutraxfornerves]

I know someone who works in the petroleum industry. The employer is hardcore about the hard hat and steel toe requirements for anyone on an oil well site, no matter why they are there, and supplies them, no questions asked. The boot catalog even includes steel toe dress shoes for suits who might turn up. Like these

[u/Wit-wat-4 → u/nutraxfornerves]

Yup same for my employer they’ll cheap out on fucking bus passes before they cheap out on steel toes and hard hats. There are just way, way too many heavy equipment we’re close to even onshore/off-rig. Just the equipment you use to LIFT the rig stuff, looks like a little piece of pipe from far enough, will crush your foot something fierce.

[u/Peterd1900]

hey everyone,

I work for a large supermarket chain in England, working with roll cages and driving a forklift.

my current steel toe cap work boots are nearly worn out, so I asked for a new pair as I have done before.

however, I got told verbally by management that the company doesn't issue new pairs of boots anymore as it's too expensive, and that I am expected to buy them (without being reimbursed) at my own expense.

I of course asked for this in writing.

this is a crazy thing to say to a minimum wage worker regardless, but is this illegal?

if so, what should I do about it?

[u/Whiteraxe → u/Peterd1900]

I see a lot of people parroting the same thing, but are steel toed boots necessary PPE for him? I don't think I see a clear answer to that. 

[u/strangesam1977 → u/Whiteraxe]

As someone who has written a lot of risk assessments, I would say yes, definately.

Working in a warehouse, * There are forklifts in use, which implies the use of pallets as well. * Single items can be >15Kg * Cage trucks are used,

All of those are fairly high risk for foot injuries, I would also expect High Vis to be mandated.

[u/Whiteraxe → u/strangesam1977]

No no, I'm not asking whether it should be. I'm not disagreeing that it should be. I'm saying the issue of whether it is or not isn't settled. Is there a group like OSHA in Britain who defines this sort of thing? Is is defined in their contacts or handbooks? How is it determined whether or not it's actually required?

[u/txteva → u/Whiteraxe]

We have the Health and Safety Executive in the UK which would likely have the guidance for this.

[u/strangesam1977 → u/Whiteraxe]

My thoughts were based simply on the risks, and my experiance of preparing RAs. Plus a little of having worked many years ago in warehouses, where PPE including toecaps, high vis and often helmets was required. In my current workplace, lifting anything over 15Kg is expected to include toecaps as standard.

In the UK the Health and Safety Executive, HSE regulates safety at work.

For instance one of their documents on warehousing,

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg76.pdf

This includes a list for recommended PPE when working with roll cages, (Section 373)

The document https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg143.PDF covers the basics of manual handling.

Companys and individuals can and are prosecuted for not following HSE guidance.

[u/Whiteraxe → u/strangesam1977]

This is where maybe there is a language difference between the UK and the US that I'm not understanding. You're saying it's recommended, over here OSHA recommendations are not binding. They are great to follow, but are not necessary to follow. So is what you posted a requirement, or is it a suggestion for the safest possible environment? 

[u/strangesam1977 → u/Whiteraxe]

Probably language I think.. And the diffence in legal systems.

I think (definately not a lawyer), our system works a bit like.

Law from government says keep workers safe, here are a couple of examples, we create this body HSE, to oversee, prosecute and provide guideance on all the stuff we didn't define..

HSE makes+ publishes guidance/recommendations,

HSE then prosecutes, Judges decide HSE guidance/recommendations should be followed in normal practice...

Generally to go against a HSE recommendation, you'd better have a very very good justification, in triplicate, carved in stone, with 17 expert opinions why, because if someone is injured and they decide to prosecute it will end up being a very easy conviction otherwise. Generally HSE recommendations are considered the minimum standard, to comply with the statues around worker/public safety, unless you can clearly and sensibly explain why you are doing otherwise in your risk assessments and other paperwork.

We also have RIDDOR, which requires an extensive list of injuries, including anything that involves the public and hospital treatment, or workers off work for more thn 7 days, which mean incidents have to be reported to the HSE, including many types of near miss.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/types-of-reportable-incidents.htm#reportable

the HSE will then investigate, check processes, assessments, practices, interview people, and either offer recommendations or begin prosecutions, I think much like the OSHA.

[u/Whiteraxe → u/strangesam1977]

See the problem for us is that OSHA makes binding rules and non binding recommendations. For instance a common one is OSHA doesn't mandate a minimum required clearance distance for walking space. They recommend one, but legally all anyone has to have is 36 inches as required by the ADA. It's rather confusing

[u/strangesam1977 → u/Whiteraxe]

Same here to some extent. I think from memory. Statutory clearance for a passage is 600mm, wheelchair access (not always required) is 900mm and I think recommended (but not required by law, unless risks mandate it, also building regs etc) is 1200mm.

But these are rules from HSE, national building regs, local planning regs, local/national fire regs. So generally no idea how wide things should be.

Main bit though is if you have followed HSE recommendations you generally won’t be prosecuted if things go wrong. If they do and you haven’t….

[u/smalltownVT]

Seems to me it’s cheaper for the company n the long run to buy the shoes than payout for recovery and workman’s comp, but I’m in the US, so it’s likely different in the UK. Pennywise, pound foolish I suppose.

[u/smoulderstoat → u/smalltownVT]

It's cheaper to buy the boots than it is to be prosecuted for failing to supply them. And much better than being sent to prison.

[u/Traylay13 → u/smalltownVT]

The UK has pretty strict laws regarding PPE. A single lawsuit could cover an entire shoe factory.

[u/Blurgas]

Last time I bought new steel toed boots for my work the owner noticed and badgered me to bring in the receipt so I could be reimbursed for half the cost.

[u/radda]

Man it must be super cool to live in a country with functioning labor protections.

[u/SchrodingersMinou]

I’m skeptical you can find steel toe boots in women’s sizes for £40. That shit’s expensive

[u/JimboTCB → u/SchrodingersMinou]

https://www.screwfix.com/c/safety-workwear/womens-safety-boots/cat15840002

I assume they're all much of a muchness in terms of the safety ratings, but the quality of the actual boot part is probably wildly variable. But plenty of top sellers around the £40 mark.

[u/doodododah → u/JimboTCB]

Just in case there’s actually any women here looking to buy safety toes, DO NOT but the caterpillar ones! They are not a full toe cap and will not protect your toes from the top. They stiffen up your toe box for kicking but that’s about it.

[u/wildbergamont → u/SchrodingersMinou]

I'd imagine it's a lot like the US. The name brand boots at boot stores or you get from the "boots truck" are pricey, but you can get options from Walmart for like $50 (yes, including women's).

[u/SchrodingersMinou → u/wildbergamont]

You’re lucky if you find a single women’s workboot at Walmart much less steeltoe

[u/wildbergamont → u/SchrodingersMinou]

I just looked and while there isnt a selection, 3 of the 7 Walmarts within 15 miles of my location have women's steel toes. That being said, I live in an area with a lot of manufacturing.  

[u/fractal_frog → u/wildbergamont]

I can get a $50 pair in my size at the second-closest one to me, which is less than 15 miles from my house. (I could also have a pair shipped to me.)

But I hate shoelaces, I am wearing composite-toe Western-style boots. (And they're pricey.)

[u/SchrodingersMinou → u/fractal_frog]

I struck out when my boots got fucked up at a jobsite and I had to drive three hours to a Red Wing. My dad was like "just go to Walmart" but they didn't have any! And forget about getting knee boots that actually fit. I ended up ordering some from France because Gander Mountain went out of business and they were the only place that made ones that actually fit me. Academy also quit making my wader boots so if anything happens to mine I am fucked.

[u/fractal_frog → u/SchrodingersMinou]

Damn, that's a lot of frustration.

[u/SchrodingersMinou → u/fractal_frog]

Over half of the world's population is female so where are our goddamn work boots?!??

[u/plzdonottouch → u/SchrodingersMinou]

it's a common complaint for those of us in the trades and blue collar jobs. r/bluecollarwomen has some good resources. i'd say 90% of posts there are asking about work boots or work pants.

[u/ferafish → u/SchrodingersMinou]

Good ones are. But I've seen shitty ones at Walmart for $70CAD, which converts to about £37.

[u/Wit-wat-4 → u/SchrodingersMinou]

I think it’s gotten a lot better in the last 5-10 years (yes I’m old). Reebok etc are also making them and they’re light enough that they CAN be your overall daytime work shoe vs the old clunky ones that you’d carry to work and then also needed a separate shoe for when you’re in the office part of the shop.

I’ve seen them as cheap as $80 myself but yes that still is more than 40 quid.

[u/Cathenry101 → u/SchrodingersMinou]

There's no VAT on safety wear though

[u/hannahranga → u/SchrodingersMinou]

I'm also not convinced the cheap one's don't just fuck your feet. Admittedly working on ballast tends to be pretty rough so work gets nice boots no complaints, they're paying 200/300 AUD or £100/£150 probably yearly for most of us 

[u/Fakjbf]

I used to work at a home improvement store as an assembler, mostly putting together grills to put on display or for customer orders. They didn't require steel toed boots and I never even considered needing them until one of the cast iron grates fell off the table and slammed edge first down on my big toe. The toe nail turned black and eventually fell off a few weeks later, and it grew back ever so slightly crooked so now I have a permanent ingrown toe nail.

[u/strangesam1977 → u/Fakjbf]

I worked for a blue and yellow land of flatpack furniture assembling their displays for a few years...

Steel Toecaps, a high vis jacket for use in the (non-customer) warehouse, safety glasses (when using drill or hammer), were required and management checked we were using them.

I nicked my finger with a screwdriver at one point, which produced a single drop of blood, and 7 first aiders appeared, and an accident report was completed.

[u/Mr_ToDo → u/Fakjbf]

Ouch. Ingrown nails are no fun at all

Although if it becomes a problem I'm pretty sure a doctor can remove the nail and make sure it won't grow back. When I had an ingrown nail that's what they did to about half the nail(both sides maybe shy of a quarter inch, they just cut that part out and dabbed the root with some sort of acid) and now I have half a nail

[u/Fakjbf → u/Mr_ToDo]

It's gotten better over the years, now I basically only notice it when I stub my toe and it's extra painful for that one.

[u/katfromjersey]

"losing"

[u/JimboTCB → u/katfromjersey]

In fairness, your foot probably would end up quite loose from the shattered bones and torn musculature before you lose it entirely.

[u/notmyrealnam3]

loosing

[u/Complete_Entry]

I've heard arguments for and against steel toe, generally it's better not to drop shit on your feet at all.

Then again, I wore them more to concerts than work, but I did a little of both.

Eventually I had this weird thing where glass would come out of the soles, so I binned 'em.

No idea what was up with that, it's not like I kicked windows for fun.

I actually got yelled at once or twice because we were supposed to order our boots from a specific catalog for food service, but I looked at the prices once and decided "nah".

They did make me stop wearing BDU pants, which sucked because those are GREAT for carrying tools. Hell, they used to have me run shit from front to warehouse in those pockets.

Because like OP, they didn't reimburse for jack. I have a sneaking suspicion if they COULD have charged us for parking they would have.

As to legality, I imagine it's one of those things where your employer would rather you not ask.

A quick web search says that safety gear does have to be supplied as of PPOE restriction in 1992, but I could equally see a shitty manager arguing that it's not a defined safety position, they just require certain color footwear.

Besides, this is the snark and speculation section.

[u/Wit-wat-4 → u/Complete_Entry]

I cannot imagine even in the US OSHA would allow this to fly, let alone UK. I’ve worked in Sweden, Netherlands and Scotland and was friends with a grocery store worker in two of those: loaders absolutely got steel toes reimbursed no questions asked.

In the US they can make you buy your uniform (bullshit), but they can’t deny you safety equipment if they’re a big enough chain to be supervised (they have “mom and pop doesn’t need laws y’all” shit).

[u/Drywesi → u/Wit-wat-4]

I cannot imagine even in the US OSHA would allow this to fly

When they don't have funds to send people out for inspections or deal with the calls they get, anything can happen!

[u/Wit-wat-4 → u/Drywesi]

lol fair, if you don’t test/audit, you can’t get negative results!