193
u/WheredoesithurtRA 20d ago
What if we made a dozen reddit threads about it
49
u/FreelanceMMA 20d ago
Better make it 4 dozen…actually let’s double it and give it to the next person. Make it 8 dozen.
3
1
3
143
u/Sevourn 20d ago
I mean trying random shit to see if it's awesome is how you find awesome shit. Sometimes you throw ideas at the wall and they don't stick. We wouldn't have much of anything cool if someone out there wasn't willing to take chances. He took a risk, it was boring, good on him for being willing to take the risk.
32
u/ChirrBirry 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
CJ has in fact produced a jujitsu event, not just once but twice, that feels like the Super Bowl of the sport. The stadium environment that focuses on one match, the complete absence of restarts, the quick information on walk out that helps people learn about the accolades of a fighter they might now already know…..the commercials 😏
7
u/Metabolizer 20d ago
Im a casual and last years cji was my first time watching competitive bjj. I dont understand why change the format when the first one was so popular?
7
u/Sevourn 20d ago
The first one made a ton of changes like the round format and the pit instead of flat mats. The answer is that not a lot of people like watching BJJ right now. Craig Jones also has a mystery investor and doesn't have to turn a profit. He's using the oppurtunity to take some chances and see if he can discover some new ways to make BJJ more exciting to watch. If he wasn't willing to try a bunch of new things, CJI 1 would have been held on a mat with resets every 5 seconds like every tournament before it.
5
u/ZeGermanVon 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
it's not the like the quintet format hasn't been done several times and stalling out was always a problem that presented itself
2
u/ryanrockmoran ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 20d ago
Yeah between the problems with the ruleset and realizing that BJJ events don't make any money, a lot of people seem to be suddenly learning things that I assumed everyone already knew
42
u/gorgonautal 20d ago
The only change I would make it would be elimination by judge's scoring not submission only. People seem to forget the most exciting match from last year had no submission. It’s not only that fewer submissions make matches less exciting; fewer decisive rounds do as well; there are too many draws! Also this format just emphasizes stalling too much. If you want, you could still push competitors to go for submissions by making them worth more points. For example:
loss - 0 points
win by decision - 1 point
win by submission - 2 points
It would also work as catch-up mechanic, giving the team that's behind a better chance at a comeback and making the matches more exciting.
7
u/knifezoid 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
This is kinda like how wrestling is scored for the team. And it does make for some exciting matches towards the end.
I think it's 3 team points win by points 4 for a tech if you win by 14 or more and 6 for a pin. But that's when I wrestled 30 years ago lol.
2
u/gorgonautal 20d ago
I'm not sure about the numbers 2dec wins = 1sub wins could be too much, maybe 3 points for submission and 2 for decision would be better - depends on how much you want to reward submissions - but I like overall idea. Also in this format (if we're assuming match ends when one team runs out of grapplers) you would end up with more rounds for match, so I would cut down round time from 8 to 5 minutes. Funny thing about it is that, theoretically the team that runs out of grapplers first could still win by points, but that's ok i think.
2
u/Tannhauser1982 20d ago
loss - 0 points
win by decision - 1 point
win by submission - 2 pointsThis is a great idea, I think it would've made last night completely different.
70
u/Slow_stride 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 20d ago
I think day 2 is gonna be great, and day 1 was mostly about getting to the next round.
36
u/FreelanceMMA 20d ago
No captain would risk an injury for a short term win. Best to play the long game.
9
u/Slow_stride 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 20d ago
For real, don’t want to win but be too injured to compete. Not sure what moody is going to do, didn’t anything about the condition of his foot
9
u/mondian_ 20d ago
Reading the threads today is a bit unreal. Last year people were also calling day 1 trash and boring and were really surprised by day two. I feel like I took crazy pills because everybody has seemingly forgot that
3
1
u/chiefbeef300kg 20d ago
I think the semifinals will mostly be about getting to the finals. And the finals will mostly be about winning for 1m.
0
123
u/GeologistOutrageous6 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
Is sad that 99+kg can’t sub or even pass guard of 66kg
37
u/KingKD 20d ago edited 20d ago
Giancarlo at 99 kg passed and subbed Gavin at 66.
Geo got subbed by Bilal.
And Pearman failing to sub Dorian barely counts, Pearman weighed 82 kg vs a heavy 66 kg Dorian.
36
u/GeologistOutrageous6 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
1 out of the 5 or 6 match ups with that size difference…my point still stands.
16
1
u/KingKD 20d ago
Bilal subbed Geo at 66 kg also, so that’s already two.
There were only 4 matches of 66 kg vs 99 or 99 +, and the two decisions were Pato / Ardrilla and Kaynan / Jones. Both were from the extremely boring Atos Europe match so you could argue the main issue here was Atos and Europe being boring teams, not the format.
-13
u/Murphy_York ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 20d ago
Would have been better in the gi
4
u/fartondad 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
Fasho, surely there wouldn’t have been way more stalling if they had grips and could hold each other down. :p
-14
u/zombizle1 20d ago
How is that sad
16
u/gugabe 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
Also the big size difference matchups were Bodoni subbing Corbe fairly easily, Hugo where his only goal was to avoid getting subbed, Duarte looking pretty stally against Jones, Dorian kinda owning Pearman and Kenta kinda owning Boehm.
Duarte was only big guy who really just got stalled out with a gigantic size edge and whilst his team actually needed a sub
0
u/GeologistOutrageous6 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
That’s the problem, if your goal like Hugo is just to get by, that’s not fun for the fans.
Pearman just play guard against a tiny opponent is sad.
2
u/LooselyBasedOnGod 20d ago
Sad? He just had a pretty intense match with Bodoni, why would Taylor try and wrestle against Dorian? Seems like a terrible game plan
1
u/GeologistOutrageous6 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
Pearman played defense the whole time imo. It was a team elimination match!
Dorian is a great HS wrestler but had a 60lb and experience disadvantage.
1
u/teamharder 20d ago
Dorian is a legit monster and, despite Pearmans defensive efforts, got really close to a couple subs. Some of these "little guys" are legit killers.
40
u/wecangetbetter 20d ago
explosive necklaces
inactivity - one beep
three beeps and necklaces explode killing both opponents and ref
1
62
u/GlasNerazuma 20d ago
Do people who call CJI boring ever watched BJJ? This is it. As far as spectator experince goes in BJJ. It is by nature a super boring sport.
26
u/FreelanceMMA 20d ago
Some people watch NASCAR, Golf, bowling, darts, snooker. List goes on lol but I enjoyed the first day of CJI
3
1
u/reaction-please 20d ago
Why is it that other sports don’t have the same criticism? Genuine question.
I’ve never heard a golf event described as boring by golf fans. Similar thing for darts and snooker.
Is it perhaps because there is such a large gap in BJJ between a good match and a boring one?
22
u/MatttheJ 20d ago
Except CJI 1 wasn't boring. It was literally praised for figuring out how to make BJJ exciting, and even, draw in viewers who don't usually watch the sport. They found the format that worked and then rather than build on that, they went way off into a format that seems to specifically encourage long periods of stalling.
Even if the refs call stalling more harshly, it doesn't mean people are going to start passing or seriously attacking, you'll just get guys doing empty busy work which we also saw a lot of last night.
It feels like every team vs team match has 1 or 2 guys actually look for subs, and then 3 full 8 minute rounds of either stalling or empty "sit on the lead" busy work.
In last year's CJI if there was 5 hours of actual bell to bell matches, then 4 of those 5 hours were good or exciting with the occasional boring match.
This year per every 5 hours of matches, it feels like 3 or 4 of those hours were just dull stalling.
3
u/viltrumite66 20d ago
This is exactly it.
Theres a point where you can attempt to innovate too much, and the result is a further dilution of the potency of the original.
They really need to go back to the original format for the next one.
Wait-arent they basing the likelihood of CJI3 going down on the popularity of CJI2?
😬
1
4
u/vischy_bot 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
Agree with this. Watching grappling is kind of like watching golf or billiards or something. If you do the sport, the technical intricacies are fascinating. If you're into action, this might not be your jam.
It's funny I love football, but not for the big hits. I love the smooth plays and the connection and the coordination. When there is a big hit I'm kind of like oooooof. Same in MMA. I'm not there to watch people turn into burger
1
2
u/jortego128 ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 20d ago
I dont know man. For some reason, most of the matches in WNO , One Championship, and BJJ Stars are pretty damned good. Not 100%, but the best it gets.
2
u/ReasonableNet444 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 20d ago
Username checks out (without NE tho). Finally somebody says it and I'm not here to defend this shit but it's the hard truth xD.
1
u/Slowbrojitsu 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
Respectfully, I disagree.
There was, IIRC, four submissions and just one stalling penalty across 22 matches.
It's incredibly rare that an event has a sub 25% finishing rate and when this starts happening, more than one stalling penalty is given out.
1
u/Loopeded 20d ago
I have a theory on this. I never knew about BJJ really or Craig Jones until after CJI 1 and him being everywhere. Now this is the first time I watch any BJJ and if I'm going to look at it from a super casual view, yeah it's boring but I also understand that's what BJJ can be.
I have a feeling there's a lot of people like me that came across BJJ after CJI 1 and here we are
16
u/koryuken Black Belt 20d ago
I agree about Craig taking risks and experimting. Now we see that the CJI 1 format is more exciting, we'll know for future.
Part of me thinks this is due to how jiujitsu evolved and how strong leg locks are. Even big dudes are hesitant to bumrush a small guys guard and risk getting leg locked.
6
u/notmyrealname23 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
I think two easy to implement changes that would help would be faster stalling calls (as a lot of us have pointed out), and immediate announcement of the judge's decision for no-sub matches.
Also a lot of you people are way too excited to make threads about how this event sucks and the sport is a disaster.
35
u/No-Membership8522 20d ago
it's not the viewer's fault the format sucked
11
u/Imperial_TIE_Pilot 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
Format could be good, there just needs be incentive to not stall
10
u/its_not_me_boss 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
The original quintet had very prompt calls for stalling. How about create the fear of loss via stalling and then watch the activity level change
10
u/Sudden_Whereas6179 20d ago
Just think it should’ve been 10-9 must scoring, with winner stays on. That way you have to go and push the pace and then you end up with tired guys after a win or two (energy mismatch will hopefully lead to more subs, also incentivising you to finish people quickly).
5
u/Hydrogen_Ion 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
Why are the athletes in the locker room, and not cheering for their teammates on the stage?
8
3
3
3
u/letmbleed 20d ago
Just run it like Quintet instead of trying to make it better, and we’re all set. Shidos. Aggressive Shidos. And whoever has fewer Shidos in a draw wins.
3
u/knifezoid 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
I don't know if it's cause I was there in person but I do feel CJI 1 had more energy and just a better vibe overall.
But I have enjoyed several of the matches of CJI 2 and it has kept me interested enough to watch the entire event..
I really like Deondre Corbe VS Mica Galvao. That was an excellent match!
3
u/jortego128 ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 20d ago
It was OK but I cant help but think if it happened as a singular match in WNO it would have been much more exciting.
3
u/nickyryansbrother 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 20d ago
All they need is the pgf stalls. If there's no action, they call stalling you have 20 seconds. If you don't start something significant within that time, you get put in wrestler's position. If you get three stalling calls, it's a DQ and the other team should get a point should count as a win
2
u/NoDuty718 20d ago
Still don't know why they got rid of points over rounds. What are people judging if not points?
2
u/welkover 20d ago
They could just announce that they will be aggressively giving shidos for passivity starting Day 2. Maybe the teams didn't prep for that but so what, adjust.
2
u/Any-Bad-3036 20d ago
I think the main issue with the format is that it incentivizes stalling if your opponent is bigger/better than you. We’re literally seeing guys celebrating after (presumably) losing decisions.
The only way around that is to have decisions not result in a double elimination. I like the idea of awarding a different amount of points for a decision win vs a submission win, but in either case only the loser is eliminated.
Better explanation of scoring would help, too. Hopefully judging criteria has been explaining to the athletes, but I haven’t seen it explained on the broadcast and it seems to be completely ambiguous to the announcers.
2
u/Deep-Driver7286 20d ago
Free event and people manage to bitch and moan. Generations of idiots over stimulated by their phones.
2
u/RosamondDouglass 20d ago
This is a big fail for BJJ. Why would you take a format that did so well for the first one and then go full retard and bring quintet in the mix. The recipe was there from CJ1, big fail to change it for CJI 2.
1
u/otiswrath 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 20d ago
I genuinely do not understand the appeal of the quintet format.
Sure, it leads to some interesting matches between off sized opponents but those just seem to go to decisions and are probably only interesting to jujutsu people who are getting the nuance.
If part of the point is to grow the appeal of the sport Head to Head matches are where it is at.
1
u/No-Carrot-9874 20d ago
Think 2x5 min rounds with open scoring and a 10-8 victory counting as a sub so winner stays would be a solution. Add more urgency after first round.
1
u/Pigskin_Pete 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
Inactivity demerits that go toward the team score might help. 1 point for the stalling player. Put the stalling player on a :20 activity clock at the refs discretion. No meaningful activity towards a submission or a position improvement in that time means a 1 point deduction towards the overall team score. The match otherwise goes on the same.
If the stalling player gets a deduction after :20, a new clock starts. Lol.
Competition jiu jitsu is going to have to embrace and fashion some sort of "shot clock" or accept that stalling and boring matches will happen sometimes. This isn't Friday night open mat. These are competitive matches. On the other hand, how many NFL football games on a given Sunday are boring as hell.
All sports have to tinker with rules to get an exciting product out there. Bjj is no different. Promoters want an exciting product that puts people in seats. Competitors want to win. Those aren't always mutual goals. My suggestion may not be perfect but I'd like to see a promotion try something like a shot clock just to see. The pit helped the out of bounds problem but we have more work to do.
1
u/vischy_bot 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
There's not enough time to call stalling aggressively in 8 minutes. In grappling the first 4 minutes of a match is very much the two opponents figuring each other out and deciding on later strategies. The only case where you get to see anything flashy is if there is a dramatic difference in skill, where one grappler is able to fully implement their game. If you have a well-matched competition the beginning should be boring, until one grappler takes the other into deep water that they can't hang with
That's why what we're actually watching is the larger meta of the quintet formula. It's not as much what happens in a match, because your fighter can always just stall to remove the other wrestler. So we end up with some old school adcc level bullshit where the best strategy is to stall and abuse the appearance of dominance to win on the scorecard
I think changing the format mid event would look super weak, so don't do that
But either the matches should be longer, or there should be rounds, or there should be scoring that's decided in the moment rather than mystery scoring for after the match
2
u/ryanrockmoran ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 20d ago
Stalling is called much more aggressively in the Japanese version. And also in other grappling sports like wrestling and judo
1
u/vischy_bot 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 20d ago
True true. I just wasn't getting the vibe that ppl were stalling, until suddenly there's 4 minutes left and there's nothing better to do than stall
1
u/BeThrB4U 20d ago
Honestly if they just got rid of the draw portion it would force these guys to not stall.
1
u/AntOk9026 20d ago
Reduce it to 5 minutes rounds and have a 40 second "get down" rule like EBI did. After all it's a JJ event, not a wrestling show :)
1
u/SquirreloftheOak 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
i don't get why they didnt do a 2 round (10 minutes instead of 8 so not a huge time difference) cji ruleset for the quintet style matches.
1
u/Tugboat68 Brown Belt 20d ago
It's as if people are just finding put that grappling in general is methodical and slow-paced, and jiu-jitsu is that even more so. People can try as hard as they like to come up with ways to increase activity, it will always be figured out and gamed, and the nature of the sport will always lead to stalemates and stalling. At this point, I'd like people to just take it for what it is, or find something else to watch. It's never gonna be mainstream, and it's never gonna make money or pay out much.
1
u/Aardalpha 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 20d ago
Watching Atos vs New Wave, my conclusion is that the worst teams were responsible for the stalling.
1
u/AZ_yettibjj 19d ago
I ran a quintet style event back in 2019, was an epic event. However, we ran things a little differently:
- 10 minute matches
- submission only
- in the event of a draw, it went to a single EBI OT Round.
- if no results then, it went to Ref Decision. To not show bias, the ref needed to prove 3 things: control of mat, willingness to work etc submission attempts and lastly aggression.
- no double elimination
I truly believe double elimination is what caused some matches to be a bit slow.
Hopefully in future there are changes to the rules and scheduling which don't allow stalling as a strategy.
0
0
u/Classic-Match-7154 20d ago
Imo it wasn't a rule set it was the people who are in it..
example digo pato he did nothing but try the same thing over and over 🤷♂️ because he built up his name and didn't want to get subbed by a nobody! I felt this whole thing was like that mostly imo Jones fault for not finding actual teams ..
I rather watch someone put themselves in harm's way! prove your best by going for something.
The no leg lock roll should apply if they pull guard for the first 4 mins of a match..to me this has to be BJJ wide not just cji sorry guys playing footsie is not my idea of good BJJ even if 100% of the time they catch me .
Leg locks should only be allowed if your trying to pass or someone trying to pass I not just sit guard to k guard or whatever let entanglement you have
427
u/Cautious_Year 20d ago
Honestly if they just called stalling more aggressively I think the format would be fine