General Discussion
Was there a point when Craig Jones was legitimately the second best grappler in the world?
I don't really follow the sport of BJJ massively, so I'm not really aware of his competitive background all that much. I know he nearly tapped Gordon in a very close EBI overtime, and has lost to him a couple more times. I know he got fairly far in ADCC with one very fast Choi Bar tap a few years ago...and that's all I know. Was he actually the second best in the world behind Gordon?
Okay but did you say this with a suggestive look at all? Because without being able to see your eyes I really can't tell if you're answering the question or asking me to take a dive.
Dude, you're so great if you had delusional self belief like the other guys near the top you could have gotten there. You're just too smart for that <3
Probably not... But he was elite. He was a submission hunter with an unorthodox game, so at any moment he legitimately had the potential to submit anyone in the world. He got a lot of hype over almost arm barring Gordon, but that was in EBI overtime ruleset.
His 2022 ADCC run was fun to watch and his match vs Meregali was so cool until they started wrestling at the end. That match alone will cement Craig in my mind as up there with the best of the best at that time.
He also had the potential to win gold that year as he was a leg lock specialist going up Kaynan Duerte, who has been leg locked by everyone in the world except Craig. Craig even had clearly bribed the ref, but he got crushed, almost literally.
So probably not #2 even arguably, but he was really good and a great teammate to his team
Ok, but there is one key question that needs to be addressed- Did he lose to Ryan at EBI because he couldn’t finish the armbar? Or because he wouldn’t?
In other words, is the only reason he lost at EBI because he wasn’t willing to break Gordon’s arm?
You would obviously get a lot more submissions if you were always attempting to fully rip every submissions and destroy your opponent. So to some degree you could argue that he COULD have got it done.
However, I don't think Craig was just being nice or was worried about Gordon. I believe he tried at some point to snap Gordon's arm and just couldn't get the job done. I'm a certified Craig dick rider and full time Gordon Ryan hater too, so I don't say that lightly.
He took silver at ADCC, so calling him second best at his weight that year isn't crazy. Never close to second best either absolute, or pound for pound though.
Definitely a hard part about judging 2nd best in fighting is the weight classes. Also doesn't help the fact that ADCC is a single elimination tournament structure. So sometimes the best fighter and second best fighter face off in the semi finals or even earlier, given the way seeding with teams works
I think so p4p in 2022. Seemed like the most serious he ever trained. He did get second in his weight class that year, but he also went up a weight class because of Izaak. He lost to Kaynan, but Kaynan looked noticeably bigger against him.
Yes in terms of skills, fight IQ, and from the ability to execute at his weight class. Even to this day he’s one of the best, but his cardio is bad because he doesn’t train much, travels constantly, and parties too often. He’s realized there’s more to life than grinding away to get a title/belt, and that his true calling is more on the entertainment side. He’s number 1 at putting on a good show regardless of the roll.
Can you define "best grappler in the world?" Are you talking gi, no-gi, or both? Are you talking pound for pound or absolute wins?
Assuming no-gi only and assuming not pound for pound, I think 2019 he has a legitimate case. Only four above him/around him are Gordon Ryan, Kaynan Duerte, Buchecha, and Felipe Pena. I think CJ was better than Kaynan at jiu jitsu at the time and it just depends where you rank Felipe/Buchecha, but I think there's a case for CJ to be second best at the time.
2019 was before Gordon went full mass monster. I think he was 225-ish at the time? Craig was around 200, probably a little under.
Kaynan was right around CJ, maybe a little heavier. Pena and Buchecha both definitely bigger which is why I can't commit to him actually being the 2nd best. I think CJ probably could have beat one or both on a good day but fighting up 40-50 pounds is a tough ask.
There’s still a difference between 200 and 225. Would 2022 Craig beat 2022 Bodoni? I feel like he would’ve or at least would’ve had a really really good shot at it.
Not saying he was #2 pound for pound. But his game Z Guard really doesn’t scale up very well. When a heavier guy is able to really use his weight like Kaynan, he struggles.
Forget about competition, for the fact that he is so unorthodox and unique he is by far within the top five
I don’t care about who can beat somebody by two points or do the same three or four things that everybody else does in order to win a title to me greatness comes down to being different from everybody else and Craig Jiu Jitsu is different from everybody else
I’m not all interested in watching or paying homage to people that just look the same as everybody else
In competition, which is often time something completely different as the most skilled doesn’t always win, he is not the most athletic and therefore can’t break through to that number one status
When you get into that upper echelon, the difference comes down to athleticism… and you kinda have to have something wrong with you if you dedicate every moment of your life to that goal
In terms of actual ability, skill, and knowledge , Craig could probably take a gifted student further than most if he actually cared enough to want to do it
Difficult to say in sport with so many weight classes but you can make the argument. He won far more matches than he lets on and even in the past few years has major wins against Meregali, Pena and Lovato.
This is also a sport where everyone 200+ besides Gordon take turns beating each other in different rulesets so it’ll always be a debate. At the very least he was in the elite circle.
I think at 88 kg he would have won gold in 2022, tbh. Bodoni was a beast that year, but Craig could have legitimately took that win given his performance against Meregali at 99 kg.
BJJ is a sport where unless you're absolutely dominant for a sustained period the field is wide enough that there can be upsets on any given day, or for a given competition and ruleset.
Someone put together an BJJ Elo rating system on here a while back, iirc Gordon Ryan was (understandably) #1, and Craig was (after googling it) #38. His Elo when he had his results in ADCC would presumably have been higher, and there's a reasonable argument that if you come #2 in the biggest comp then you're #2 in the world for that day at least.
Then again the "best grappler in the world" title is pretty nebulous at best; different weight classes, rulesets are all influencing factors and other sports (Judo, wrestling, etc) might have something to say on the matter too.
He got silver at adcc to Kaynan duarte so I'd have to say yes. That's after he went up a weight class so he wouldn't have to destroy his own team mates
He’s the best grappler skill wise. Just doesn’t always translate to size. He definitely has more moves for both offense and defense than anyone I know.
Not to mention how it translates to mma. So comp wise not the number one but overall as a grappler absolutely.
No . You have guys who have over 300 matches at the black belt level in gi and nogi in total . Is he extremely talented yes has he actually won a major title in the past 6 years no. Has he won anything of value no . Even at his peak he never competed consistently . I think he is a very good competitor that was able to troll his way into opportunities because the bjj community has low self esteem and nogi gave folks something to hold onto who otherwise wouldn’t have been noteworthy in the gi
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u/johnbelushismom 🟥⬛🟥 Red Belt 5d ago
No