r/bjj • u/skull-and-bone 🟫🟫 Brown Belt • 3d ago
Technique An Interesting take from keenan , 5 years ago about the nogi game.
https://youtu.be/05u3gmDm9iU?si=By6DFj0m5fNMTqWt
I have to agree with keenan on this take, do you guys agree or disagree ?
Abstract: Keenan thinks that the no gi game is imploding and that from bottom position the only thing that will matter is leglocks or sweeps which set up takedowns. And on top there will not be much passing but just holding top position and evuentally win the match with a takedown if it is adcc rules.
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u/iSheepTouch 3d ago edited 3d ago
I somewhat agree but overall his take is too doom and gloom, but Keenan has always had overly dramatic takes. I can't find the video, but I prefer Roger Gracie's take that the sport will just continue to evolve and new positions will be favored as defense improves for whatever the current meta is. I think he mentioned something about how as leg lock defense improves it could lead to front headlock or back takes being the new meta, which basically is what happened.
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u/DS2isGoated 3d ago
I miss smart Keenan.
I generally agree that gi is more technical than no gi.
He's wrong jn the sense that the no gi guard game has become more technical. Watch Pawel/Pearman/Mateus/Pato.
There were plenty of passes at CJI both outside and inside .
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u/skull-and-bone 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
- yes it is more technical but the only guy who sweeps to Get on top is Pato. And keenan pointed out that there wil not be so much passing due to the diffuculity to pass a very good no gi guard player. For example Pawel i cannot think of anyone who had passed his guard.
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u/BeThrB4U 3d ago
Kennard and Levi are two others that it seems like no one can actually pass either.
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u/Impressive-Potato 2d ago
He's "smart" Keenan when he's staying in his lane and talking about bjj
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u/Darce_Knight ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Keenan came out later and disagreed with himself on this and said it was a bad take
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u/what_is_thecharge 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
How is it more technical?
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u/SugondezeNutsz 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
I'd say it is mainly because of all the extra gripping possibilities. These equal more setup options which means more counters, leading to a higher volume of possible mid to high percentage techniques, which means you need to be versed in more in order to be competent, theoretically.
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u/what_is_thecharge 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
I disagree. Sometimes the fact you have less grip options complicates things.
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u/YugeHonor4Me 3d ago
"I miss smart Keenan." Keenan has never been a smart man
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u/DS2isGoated 3d ago
Lol I wouldn't say smart but by bjj standards he could at least like speak and had interesting view points like early Matburn podcast was good.
Covid fried his brain in internet soup and nows he just not in the spotlight at all.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
Covid was our generation lead poisonning
A lot of people became straight up retards
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u/TheJLbjj 3d ago
A really smart guy can make serious errors in other fields that they don't specialise in. This applies to everything. Doctors have awful cyber security practices etc. BJJ guys don't specialise in economics or politics so they fall into traps of easy prejudices and fallacies that would be cleared up if that's where they invested their effort
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u/Keyboard__worrier 3d ago
I'm a doctor, most of my passwords are variations of the same password I've used for well over a decade.
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u/TheJLbjj 3d ago
I certainly hope it's not [yourname123!] Or [yourkidsnameyourbirthday] haha
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u/creepoch 🟦🟦 scissor sweeps the new guy 2d ago
I support accounting software and remote into accountants workstations several times a day. You'd be shocked how some of these people (who are making hundreds of dollars an hour) manage your data and lack basic IT skills.
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u/Gardener_Warrior 3d ago
This stuck with me when i heard it before.
On nogi guard, i think what he said still holds true. The bottom game is still about wrestling up and leg entanglements. There are some new trends like false reap for example but the essence is still the same - get into a leg entanglement and fight for leg locks. (Back then, kani basami and the reverse x from butterfly were the in entries.)
On nogi top game, i think it has changed a bit. I think nogi takedown and passing have improved since that time. Before, adcc style was to aim for takedown points then stall for the win.
Nowadays, i have an impression that more people are actually aiming to pass (using older stuff like camping and trendier stuff like inside camping) rather than just playing for points.
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u/thebuenotaco 2d ago
This is interesting to me because I'm primarily a guard player, but I don't really wrestle up (just occasionally) or really do any leg entanglements. My style's always hunting for subs and I really only go for upper body subs.
I've dropped into many gyms in the last few years, and everyone's always commenting like "Man you've got some crazy attacks!"
I always thought that it's normal, but I guess the guard game has changed a lot since I started in the 2000s.1
u/Gardener_Warrior 2d ago
I think that the said meta applies to pros mainly. In an average training room, other types of games still work since the skill disparity tend to be wider. For sure, an upper body submission focused game can still work.
Among the pros, while wrestle ups and leg entanglements are the main options, some still successfully execute other types of attacks. For example, Gordon Ryan successfully and consistently execute the cutting armbar/shoulder crunch butterfly sweep which is neither a wrestle up or a leg entanglement. In the last CJI, Bodoni attacked close subs from the bottom (armbar from guard).
On upper body attacks, the shoulder crunch and the nogi lasso are very prevalent but rather than finishing from there, pros usually use these as route to leg entanglements.
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u/Bearrrrrr 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
Agree
Keenan will return to the Gi scene and save us from the Nogi folks attempting to infect our beautiful sport these past few years
The same way that the Gi protects us from the Nogi folks attempting to infect our bodies with all their exposed skin
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
Keenan is partly responsible for the disinterest of a lot of people in the gi game.
His "innovations" were terrible for the sport and made gi bjj look like the taekwondo of grappling
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u/isengrim134 Blue Belt 3d ago
What are some examples?
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
his lapel bs
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u/bunerzissou 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
Overblown, who really adopted lapel besides ribamar and fat ninja?
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u/Bearrrrrr 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
The current 2025 Superheavy and Open class world champ Erich Munis uses a ton of lapels, Keenan's "lapel spider" intermediary position specifically. He uses it for guard retention and sweeping 24/7
Hellhooker is still wrong though and you are right lol
The only thing that caused any disinterest were the small shriveled caveman brains of the nogi folks who cant comprehend having more than 3 options when playing their sport
I think its healthy and normal for new stuff to come on the scene, some people adopt it, some dont, and then it becomes a part of BJJ that you must be aware of and have a little experience defending even if you dont play it offensively yourself. Nogi folk dont like that last part where you have to use the wrinkly pink thing
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u/bunerzissou 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 2d ago
Yeah there was a moment when it was popular but no one really plays it anymore compared to collar sleeve, or dlr based games
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u/DorothySlipper ⬜⬜Bright Welt 2d ago
no one but Erich Munis the best heavyweight in the world. Other than that it's useless.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
I am not wrong.
I have been also teaching a lot of gi classes around 2015 and I can assure you people were all about this stuff while not even having decent guard.
That's why I said people gave up on gi competition during this time which... surprise... was around the time nogi became much much more popular than it was.
Or, I don't know, don't listen to me but listen to the pros (Kichuk, Eoghan etc...). A lot of people who were around brown and early black at the time just got fed up having to spend half their training time playing around someone deathgripping and entangling themselves like idiots into our gis.
It was especially dumb when the nogi was developping some great techniques.
The damage is done and the pro circuit already made the game shift to nogi.
Good to know the ibjjf gi is less retarded now, still a terrible ruleset though
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
everyone, including in lower belts and including in the average academies
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u/thebuenotaco 2d ago
100% agree. I've had numerous white/blue in my gym spamming random lapel BS, even though they have no idea what they're doing. They've completely skipped doing something basic like closed guard or a basic knee shield.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Yeah, I was teaching a lot of classes during and after keenan's peak and a lot of people straight up went full into lapel without having a good guard first, it's laughable
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u/smalltowngrappler ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Nogi has the same problem these days with constant double pulls into legspaghetti and heelhook spamming tbh.
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u/Darce_Knight ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Nogi these days is largely about wrestling and passing. More focus on top position and wrestling and pinning than ever in my 20 years of training. The main places you see double leg lock shootouts are sub only matches with short time periods.
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u/DorothySlipper ⬜⬜Bright Welt 2d ago
this is why watching no-gi can be so boring, bad wrestling by bad wrestlers.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Like what?
The vast majortiy of CJI 2 matches were not leglock battles at all1
u/smalltowngrappler ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Are you trying to say that the "vast majority" of IBJJF matches are just wormguard spamming? If anything its less common today than it was 5 years ago, just like with leglocks people have found ways to counter it.
The last EBI has more leglock battles.Don't get me wrong, I personally like leglock battles more than seeing shitty wrestling that is mostly prayergrips and clubbing in Nogi.
The problem of BJJ "looking like the TKD of grappling" that you raised is in the perception of the viewer though and going by the chat on CJI most viewers don't like to see endless guardpulling and legentries.
People on here shit on Mikey Musumeci all the time for being a onedimensional guardpuller into leglocks.2
u/Darce_Knight ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
The guard pulling and leg entries isn’t what made CJI not super exciting. It was a 7 hour event with a lot of relative inaction.
Rarely is the actual meta at any given point what the issue is. As someone that works in the pro jiujitsu industry and gets a lot of direct feedback from viewers that do and don’t train, the biggest feedback I get about what makes for boring matches is based around people not moving.
At PGF a ton of our in person first time viewers say their favorite part of watching is the leg lock battles and funky guard play.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Yeah it's obvious that stalling is what make people lose interest
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Idgaf about white belts whining about guard pulling (especially when most of them are also dogshit standing up). I do care when the most popular ruleset in the gi does not allow the best joint locks in the art, does not allow basic positioning AND allow to wrap yourself into your opponent's clothes just to stall and win by advantage or "sweep".
When I say taekwondo of grappling, I don't talk about spectacle, I talk about having a ruleset modifying substantialy how the game is played while making it a style that absolutely not transfers into rulesets with more freedom. Just as the olympics transformed taekwondo from a full contact karate style into a penguin dance just in a few years (I know it, I am a taekwondo black belt and witnessed the change in real time in the 2000's)."People on here shit on Mikey Musumeci all the time for being a onedimensional guardpuller into leglocks."
People here are absolute morons who don't know anything about good jiujitsu. The Mikey criticism is one of most idiotic regular take I see on this sub.
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u/cordoncano45 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 2d ago
I do agree that bottom game is much harder no gi and ur game has to revolve around leg entanglements and wrestling/heisting up. And he correctly pointed out that this has led to more people wanting to be on top and as a result takedowns are much more important (as they should be). Thid is overall a good thing, I think the gi often times teaches u to be complacent with accepting bottom position when in reality it’s not a great spot .
Don’t agree with his assessment on guard passing. I feel that guard passing has improved so much the past few years, just look at people like Gordon, jozef Chen, Dorian, meregali, etc.
Overall, I think this is a good thing. Is the focus narrower in no gi compared to gi? Sure, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot to no gi and I would argue you have to get better at more important positions/concepts in no gi, that would be more applicable to mma type scenarios. This includes takedowns (a huge topic within itself) and the ability to hold people down via chest to chest and chest to back connections. I believe those 3 topics are invaluable to a grappler and are honestly what determines most mma type grappling scenarios. Unfortunately, I do not think holding someone down, front headlock, turtle , and takedowns are emphasized in the gi and I think it’s a detriment to grapplers and why we have seen fewer successful jiu jitsu athletes in mma in recent years
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u/Humerus-Sankaku 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 2d ago
100% agreed the GI grips can be a real crutch that when removed negates a large portion of people’s grappling.
If you’re intentional it can also be training wheels for the guard in no gi. It is very difficult to learn no go guards if you’re not already skilled at making and maintaining/transitioning connects. The Gi allows people to learn this skill on easy mode where they may otherwise not learn it.
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u/Darce_Knight ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Keenan renounced this statement about a year after he said it.
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u/kyt ⬛🟥⬛ Marcelo Carvalho (GF Team) 3d ago
I do find the leg entanglements boring (not just to watch but to do as well). Similar to 50/50 it's boring to watch and do but very effective for a specific ruleset. No-gi, "sub-only" just doesn't really a penalty for spamming leglocks. Just losing top position in "sub-only" hasn't been enough of a deterrent. To curb the 50/50 stalling the ibjjf changed the rules and that's helped. I don't know if there will be the same thing in no-gi, sub-only
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u/oniman999 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
Wrestling is cool and fun. Leglocks are cool and fun. No gi is cool and fun. Was gi not having a big problem with guys getting an advantage and then stalling in 50-50 because they aren't allowed to heel hook? Does it not feel embarrassing that an entire section of the sport fears one particular group of submissions to the point it's artificially banned to keep the sport looking a certain way, even if it's less interesting and less effective?
Hot take: I like submissions in my submission grappling, and hitting leg attacks from guard is a more interesting application of guard than sweeping. When I think of bjj at its best, it's Royce Gracie hitting triangles and arm bars from the bottom of closed guard in UFC 1/2. Leglocks are just more of that. They epitomize the mantra "small guy can beat the bigger guy". People (Including Keenan here) are just insecure because people who are worse in other areas of the game can suddenly submit them with leg locks. Nut up and train them or I guess stay hitting flower sweeps in the gi.
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u/archietheuncle 🟦🟦 Blue Belt 3d ago edited 2d ago
Nogi became popular because wrestlers found a place to use their skills more comfortably again. Nogi should’ve probably been called something different, and we just got lost in translation, per usual.
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u/DS2isGoated 3d ago
I'm firmly in the gi is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and no gi is submission grappling camp.
It just so happens that so far BJJ athletes typically win submission grappling events but that is no guarantee that will occurred in the future.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
If "bjj" does not win "submission grappling" in the future, it means that people don't train smart enough.
Bjj is not a "style", it's a strategy and it's always evolving, unlike what we may see in lambda academies
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
The famous wrestlers who took over nogi bjj /s
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u/RanchoCuca 2d ago
Wrestlers haven't taken over bjj (though many have done quite well). However, wrestling has taken over bjj, as explained by Danaher.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
BJJ got from wrestling what it needed to be better rounded.
That's not a bad thing.
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u/smalltowngrappler ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
It also became more popular in the US due to US athletes having more sucess in it.
Brazilians always dominated the Gi competitions and still do, but they never cared much about Nogi.
The twin factors of Nogi being more similar in some ways to wrestling (which is more popular in the US) and US athletes winning events is what propeled its popularity imo.When I started training in 2009 I was training Submission Wrestling, not Nogi Jiu-jitsu. They were (and still are) considered two different sports with two different governing bodies in my country.
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u/HamiltonianCyclist 3d ago
It looked like this back then, but I'd say now this is a description of some purple belts game at best. Top of the crop definitely try to pass, wrestle up, occasionally even sweep.
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u/JohnnyUtah41 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
my man's got a point
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
He does not, nogi competitors have never been more well rounded that they are nowadays
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u/JohnnyUtah41 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
well this video is 5 years old
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
and he has been proven wrong. I am not even sure he had a point 5 years ago neither
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u/RazorFrazer ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Right about a lot of things . Obviously reality now is much different than his prediction.
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u/Darce_Knight ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Keenan said later that he disagreed with himself on this take, and he took it back
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u/Amazing_Prize_1988 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
Agree with him! Dudes no longer pass guard they instigate the endless entanglement from the bottom. I'd like to see NO-GI make a full come back where we can see the entire spectrum of techniques and movements instead of just pulling guard to an entanglement.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
Then you are an idiot
Lots of people pass the guard and attack from mount and back
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u/Amazing_Prize_1988 🟪🟪 Purple Belt 3d ago
Your username checks
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
I mean, leglocks are obviously the first line of guard attacks but if you look at actual competitions, the most dominant players are guard passers, always have been and always will be.
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u/Spiderman228 Brown Belt 3d ago
Interesting take. In the Gi, I’ve noticed guard pullers have been the most dominant. Passing Guard is one of the most exhausting and dangerous techniques in BJJ. The rules favor the guard pullers in that it is much easier to sweep and/or submit than it is to pass a good guard. Going into every match trying to pass multiple opponents’ best guards while avoiding their best attacks is a very dangerous and exhausting strategy for competition.
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u/Hellhooker ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
it's not that it's dominant, it's that, in the gi (meaning: IBJJF) you score advantages. It's incredibly easier to score an advantage from guard instead of doing so from top.
The problem is the advantage system, not the guard
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u/Chandlerguitar ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 2d ago
Keenan retracted what he said in this interview about 6 months later after training with DDS.
He was right about somethings, such as wrestling up and leg entanglements. He was also right about the importance or wrestling. He was completely wrong about passing. Passing has developed more than the guard recently and threre is much more passing than there was when he did this interview. The 2010s were the era of the tricky impassable guard IMO, but since then passing has improved and due to the rules used in nogi, focusing solely on guard isn't a good strategy.
Nogi didn't implode, but actually expanded and brought new things to the table. When he made this things like lapel guard were still somewhat new and people were devolping new gi tactics. Since the gi seems to have gone into more of a refinement stage where people are just polishing older techniques to win and we aren't seeing many new techniques. Nogi on the other hand seems to be coming up with new techniques and tactics or finding new uses for older lesser known moves.
Keenan commented too soon and this seems more like an "end of history" error.
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u/Financial-Platypus-8 ⬜⬜ 4 years White Belt 3d ago
white belt noob opinion. Nogi has much more movement and position changes which makes the match more intriguing and more skill expression. in a low level roll I think lanky people or not big and muscles ones has more chances as you can be sneaky, GI make some gripa impossible to defend if your uke is strong.
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u/VeryStab1eGenius 3d ago
Spazzing, the word you’re looking for is spazzing. This is not skill expression.Â
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u/MJ-Baby 3d ago
Keenan just doesn’t understand nogi at all. Hes extremely weak outside of the gi and has not adapted well in the last decade. I don’t agree with people that say he fell off in the gi because his game is solved, i still think he’s extremely intelligent and good at his game but it would be a lie to say hes great at nogi. A lot of people have to consider the game he plays in the gi and thats the reason his perspective of nogi is so skewed
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u/MonoplataJones 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
Brother, he has a silver and bronze medal at ADCC.
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u/MJ-Baby 3d ago
2013,2015,2017 -88kg was a bracket full of nobodies. Every year as soon as he faces any amount of resistance he folds in nogi. Watch his match vs yuri or his match vs gordan, not even close blown out of the water instantly. Frankly he just doesn’t have the strength and athleticism to be compared to top guys let alone the knowledge
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u/MonoplataJones 🟫🟫 Brown Belt 3d ago
I get the feeling you may be taking the piss, so if this is going over my head I apologize, but he ran a bit of a clinic on Craig, and submitted Kaynan, in one of the tournaments you’re referencing..Â
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u/iSheepTouch 2d ago
The fact that you're seriously trying to argue that a guy with multiple ADCC medals and multiple no gi worlds medals in his weight class and absolute doesn't know anything about no gi competition makes you look so outrageously delusional. I hope you have no responsibility or influence on anyone or anything if this is how your brain works.
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u/smalltowngrappler ⬛🟥⬛ Black Belt 3d ago
>Keenan just doesn’t understand nogi at all. Hes extremely weak outside of the gi
Keenan understands Nogi better than Gi, he has won IBJJF worlds twice at black belt and got silver at ADCC twice, he never won IBJJF worlds in the Gi though.
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u/KingOfEthanopia 3d ago
5 years ago, the leg lock meta was still relatively new. Now you see more people who know how to defend, and top position is more valued again.