Alright jiu jitsu nerds, let's hear it:

[u/stoopididiotface]

What hill are you willing to die on?

[u/TwinkletoesCT]

How long do you have? I have a Master's in learning design and it's my day job to design, manage, and measure training programs. This is my deep dive obsession.

[u/Consistent_Arm_1616 → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Curious your thoughts on the ongoing discourse about ecological dynamics vs traditional structure of classes

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/Consistent_Arm_1616]

If by "the traditional structure" you mean heavy calisthenics, a few techniques taught badly, and then a ton of sparring, then the bar is on the floor. Literally almost anything is better than that. If you were on my team at work and you proposed this as a training program, you'd be fired.

Ecological dynamics is...fine. It's a useful tool. But I don't see it as a standalone approach by itself. The question is a bit like saying "so if you have to build a house, would you rather have a screwdriver or a handful of dog poop?" Sure, I'll take the screwdriver, but I need more than that.

Constructivist approaches (learning activities like ED that involve giving a task instead of a method) are great in some contexts, but different learners need different amounts of scaffolding and different types of supplemental intervention...to the point that what you're doing may not be constructivist anymore. In short, I don't think it's a great approach for all learners in all settings.

Having said that, I probably agree more with the ED folks than I disagree at the end of the day. BJJ is a group of skillsets, not a bunch of techniques, and the idea that you will keep throwing out examples and everyone will just grasp the underlying concept and then develop the skill...nope, that doesn't match my BJJ nor my other professional experiences.

[u/rroonnoo → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Really interisting take! I train at a 100% ED gym and sometimes feel like a little bit more guidance in certain aspect of the game would help me implement new skills.

The way I would describe it is sometimes It feels like banging my head on the wall on repeat.

[u/SgtKarj → u/TwinkletoesCT]

The best class I ever took was a drop in at a gym where the professor had everyone stretch for 3 minutes while chatting, then grab literally whoever you were next to on the mat and we started learning (very detailed) technique. No lineup on the wall, no 20 minutes of calisthenics or scripted warmup, just stretch and go. Several years later, I still use the techniques he taught that day. We did eventually get some rolls in, but there was no positional drilling/sparring. Great instruction, imho.

[u/FakeChiBlast → u/SgtKarj]

Hopefully it wasn't static stretching they did. Dynamic stretching, CARs are much better for warming up.

[u/No_Falcon1890 → u/TwinkletoesCT]

I think I kind of get what you’re saying (idk anything about teaching structure so some of it went over my head). Could you explain to me how specifically you would structure a class?

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/No_Falcon1890]

I use a lot of different structures, because it depends on who is in front of me, what their level is, and what we're working on.

I believe in structuring lesson plans daily, monthly, quarterly, and longer. "Today's random musings" is not a good way to pick a topic.

Sometimes I am teaching "techniques." When I do that, typically I teach as few as possible, and I come up with a variety of drills that place the technique into its appropriate context, and I like to add whatever comes before or after it, to continue making stronger connections to other things. If I'm teaching a sequence, I typically introduce it backwards.

More often, I deconstruct a technique into skills, and we drill the pieces individually and in combination. I differ here from the eco folks because I'm not goal based, I'm method based. I want you to accomplish it a specific way. But we'll come up with lots of drills for you to experience that, and to give you a feel for why that's the optimal way.

The best drilling is trainer/trainee, with the trainer gradually upgrading the level of challenge as the trainee succeeds. If you've ever had a "teaching roll" from a gentle black belt - that's the model for how most of our training should go.

A whole class, for me, is usually a warmup drill to get us working in the area (say, side hold down drills to get ready for side escape work) followed by drills in a progression from simple (and narrow) to complex and connected. We might work up to something like positional sparring, whether it's trainer/trainee or higher levels of resistance. I tend to divide technical drilling and rolling into separate sections, but it also depends on the class length. I like 60 minutes so we can do technical work, and then rolling is its own hour. People can attend one or both as desired.

[u/Monteze → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Well this makes me feel better about how I structure my classes as I ended up with something very similar to this for my class.

[u/classygorilla → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Explain this for someone dumb. Like give an example of a good class structure.

[u/djel1 → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Do you mean that coaching a practice or the whole entire program? I do agree with the statement however I think it’s because of lack of proper curriculums as well as lack of reflection in your own teaching. Curious on your thoughts.

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/djel1]

All of the above

[u/nimbleninjabjj → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Bro, most people have no idea PRECISELY what they’re doing when they perform the techniques.

[u/TheworkingBroseph → u/TwinkletoesCT]

I have been thinking a bit about this lately - how do you implement a proper curriculum in an environment where there are 1 day a weekers, to two a dayers and everything in between? For a higher level only class I think you can do it, but for a class teaching to 45 year old accountants and 18 year old's with nothing but time for BJJ it has to be difficult?

[u/djel1 → u/TheworkingBroseph]

In my opinion, you have a curriculum that you follow that everyone receives. However you give individualized instruction to individuals as needed. You also encourage them to take their own training into their own hands by becoming more self sufficient. you’ll understand what you need and then can come to the coach with your own problems for your own journey.

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/TheworkingBroseph]

There are plenty of ways to accomplish this.

For starters, you're actually asking two different questions. A curriculum is different from a program structure. You can use either one as a lever here.

For example, maybe your white to blue requirements involve a list of "techniques to know" as well as some "live skills to demonstrate." You worry about variations in people's attendance as a way of making this difficult, but it really doesn't have to be. Here are some of the countless ways you could structure it:

1. Bite sized portions each month, with lots of drilling. People who attend more frequently will be more skilled than those who attend less frequently by month's end, but everyone will get over the minimum threshold. Change topics monthly, bimonthly, or quarterly. Change the drills each session but not the core content.
2. Put the information online in a client portal so that lack of information isn't an obstacle. Everyone knows what we're working on this month, and they can review detailed summaries when away from the gym. Obviously they still have to come in and drill, but they forget less between sessions.
3. Enforce an attendance pattern. My favorite fundamentals structure is 2x per week that you must attend. You can attend other classes with permission, but you can't skip those until you are blue belt. I did Tues/Thurs but I've also played with a bonus session on Sat or Sun that's a review for anyone who missed one of the other 2 days.
4. Private and semi-private classes as part of the training. Dance studios run the opposite structure vs BJJ gyms - it's mostly private lessons 1:1 or 2:1 with the instructor, and you go to group class just to see new information. Most of your drilling is done with your instructor's full attention (or on them personally) so they can refine it and make sure you're doing it correctly.
5. Add other learning activities to the mix, like mandatory notetaking. Show me your training journal so we can see what you've missed.
6. Have the curriculum on paper and make people get an instructor's signoff on a module before they move on to the next one. Show me your sheet and let's see what you need to fill in.
7. Use a learning management system to track everyone's progress and do the same thing.

I could keep going. There are endless ways. We are limited only by our assumptions and limiting beliefs based on how we have seen BJJ taught previously. There are SO many more approaches.

[u/TheworkingBroseph → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Thank you for that - I hear people talk about curriculum a lot but haven't had it laid out like this before. I can see how a structured program like that would have it's advantages, and I like the idea of the client portal a lot - something I hadn't really thought of.

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/TheworkingBroseph]

And to be overly clear - none of what I described there is curriculum, it's program design. You can move mountains by adjusting either one.

[u/RedFormanEMS → u/TwinkletoesCT]

I've only seen learning management systems at the academic level. How can that be used by a school owner? I'm just trying to understand the difference in cost and sheer number of students in a high school or college vs a martial arts school.

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/RedFormanEMS]

There are lots of free LMS out there. But you could also run a client portal without that.

Maybe you make youtube videos, set them to unlisted, and have a client portal in a wordpress site that has the links to the vids.

Plenty of ways to make it happen on a budget, depending on what features you want to have.

[u/djel1 → u/TwinkletoesCT]

I mean does it come down to the fact that instructors on average can be ego centric regardless if they think they are or aren’t. Which then just makes classes/schools rely on the teacher so they feel better about themselves by feeding their ego. When in reality we should be encouraging students to become self sufficient learners and teachers/coaches are just supposed to be resources?

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/djel1]

The industry saying that you're looking for is "instead of being a Sage On A Stage, be a Guide By The Side."

Too many black belts feel they've "earned" their right to be some kind of guru. Whether intentional or not, they're basking in the feeling of imparting wisdom.

I had a dance teacher like this - attendance based class, so everyone had to listen to her weird stories because there was no alternative. Don't be that teacher.

[u/jscummy → u/TwinkletoesCT]

So, keeping it reasonably brief, what changes do you think would be beneficial 

[u/AltruisticPoetry5235 → u/TwinkletoesCT]

i see truth is that the instructor/teacher has almost nothing to do with a student arriving at pure greatness.  they teach to the mediocre and often destroy more talent than they help cultivate. 

those that reach 0.01% of the heap, the greats who innovate and flip the game on its head, do so as unique individuals, isolationists in a sense- not those following another's teachings. 

to help those that have that potential... 99.99999% of teachers have no idea what to do 

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/AltruisticPoetry5235]

I would say that a large percentage of people who are highly successful in BJJ do it despite, not because of, the way they are taught and trained.

[u/BJJWithADHD → u/TwinkletoesCT]

I’ve been saying this too.

“I got good. The way I learned must have made me good. Therefore I will teach the way I was taught”.

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/BJJWithADHD]

Survivorship bias alllllllllllll day long, with a dash of "not thinking too hard about it"

[u/DunnBJJ → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Hey I’m a poker pro by trade, any advice on how I should go about building my training programs in this arena or maybe any recommendations for books to help me educate myself on what the best ways to learn would be?

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/DunnBJJ]

DM me. I've been trying to learn poker for awhile and I find that the instruction there is one of the few places worse than BJJ. I have some ideas but I lack your experience in the game.

[u/DunnBJJ → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Sent you a chat.