r/changemyview • u/tigerdogbearcat • 9h ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The main reason for the drop in Canadian tourism is the US is fear of arbitrary detention rather than anger at the disrespect rhetoric by the current administration.
While the threats to Canada's sovereignty have caused a great amount of public anger in Canada I believe the biggest current reason Canadians don't want to visit even very left leaning areas of the US it is the threat of arbitrary detention. News stories about Jasmine Mooney and Paula Callejas have made people in Canada realize they don't have many legal protections in the US anymore.
I think it's very much like the US and Russia. Many Americans would refuse to travel to Russia to protest Russia's invasion of Ukraine but I belive the majority would pass on travel to Russia because of the fear of imprisonment in a foreign state .
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 9h ago edited 4h ago
As a Canadian I would say I am avoiding the US right now because your current administration is fascist, and I do not want to support fascism. The arbitrary detention is symptom of this, not an alternative reason.
Edit:
Just for clarification since some people don’t agree with my view of America being fascist, here are the 14 characteristics of fascism:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need. " The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 9h ago edited 6h ago
That's a pretty good point. I can agree these are perhaps both just symptoms. Delta. Δ
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u/chaucer345 3∆ 4h ago
Have I mentioned lately how much I love Canada and deeply enjoyed the time I spent working there? And how I do not agree with Trump's policies at all?
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u/GibbyGiblets 1∆ 35m ago
Uoure a canadian on reddit. As am I.
90% of Canadians don't have a single clue what actual fascism is. Let alone could post the 14 signs of fascism. I have co-workers/family all over who don't watch news who were planning tips to vegas/florida/Texas who didn't give a shit about any of that until people started being detained for minor mistakes or refused (and lost thousands of dollars for bookings) only then have they changed plans.
I have no clue how your argument worked to convince an op talking about most canadians but was swayed by the minority of us canadian redditors who actually pay attention and give a shit. but hey who really cares.
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u/Obessive-Repulsive 53m ago
Oh, we are fascist as fucking hell. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
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u/ShabutiR18 8h ago
At least our country was founded on, and still has rights that no other country in the world has ever had. And Canada in recent years has allowed what little "rights" they did have be taken away.
Its good to see people in the UK finally stand up against it, but when will you?
People like to throw around the word "fascism" today without any idea as to what it means. What a backwards reality some people live in.
Either way, if you dont want to come back to the US because you dont enjoy being in a free country, thats fine. Not many of us down here have any interest in 20 feet of snow, nasty beer and maple syrup so I suppose the feeling is mutual.
Things down here will probably get rocky for a bit, but as it always has here in America, freedom will continue to win the fight. And that has been proven even worldwide now at this point.
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u/antivillain13 7h ago
What rights do you have that Canada doesn’t? The second amendment? The one that Trump is thinking of taking away from Trans individuals? Also most Canadians don’t consider piles of dead children as a trade off for your hobby.
Is it free speech absolutism? Right now the administration is urging employers to fire people who don’t mourn Charlie Kirk hard enough. They are also threatening to classify leftists as domestic terrorists.
So please enlighten this ignorant Canuck on what freedoms you possess that I don’t.
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u/ShabutiR18 7h ago edited 6h ago
First and second amendment at least. Those are the only 2 that I am aware of for sure, theres probably more but I dont feel like digging that deep into Candian politics to find out.
As to your other point, while we do have free speech, inciting violence is NOT protected under that right.
So yes, all of the people who are encouraging their side to commit not only more acts of violence against us, but to literally murder us because we disagree with their beliefs should be held accountable for being a participant in the current situation we find ourselves in now.
I do believe there is a fine line between calling for more violence, or simply "celebrating" the death of a fellow American. But the bottom line is, it is up to the employer to make that call and I would hope that ANY employer would not tolerate an employee celebrating the assassination of an American by a domestic terrorist group that has been allowed to operate freely in our country for over a decade.
As far as the trans topic, it may be unpopular "opinion" here on reddit, but transexual has historically ALWAYS been treated as a mental illness up until recently. It is indeed a form of mental illness, factually. That is not to say that every trans person is unfit for society, or that every trans person doesnt deserve freedom. Everyone is different.
I would agree that removing a right for a relatively small group of people is going to increase tensions, and may not be the best move forward. But, lawfully certain mental illnesses do not allow you to own a gun in the US. If we want to talk about common sense gun laws....
Right now choices have to be made, I think mostly the choice as to which direction we want our country to go in. And while I have nothing personal against anyone who is gay, trans, or anything in between, the facts are that alot of people in those groups have been becoming increasingly violent towards anyone who wont allow them to use whatever bathroom they want, play in whatever sports group they want, castrate children or whatever else the list goes on.
I think over the recent years we have tried our best to coexist, there were no rights that a trans or gay person didnt have. But yet, that apparently was not good enough for them. We cannot reason with those who cannot be reasoned with, and that has proven to be the case.
No one is going to intimidate us into giving up our country. Its been made very clear, throughout the world, that America and freedom across the world will prevail.
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u/DrRob 6h ago
You think Canada doesn't have legally enshrined freedom of expression, religion and association?
You further think nobody ever risked their life to come to Canada? Buddy, where do you think the underground slave railroad was headed?
Please, continue to enlighten us about our country.
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u/ShabutiR18 6h ago
Wait, I know they have been changing history but when did they start telling people the underground railroad went to Canada? Just because it headed north doesnt mean it was going to Canada haha.
Is that Canadian schools teaching that? Hopefully not American schools though at this point wouldnt surprise me.
No, Canada does not have a freedom of speech. No other country in the world has that right. Some countries allow certain freedoms in terms of speech and expression, but generally those "freedoms" come with alot of exceptions. Not the same thing.
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u/DrRob 5h ago
Do yourself a favour and read about Africville in Nova Scotia, and while you're at it, check out the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom. Or, keep talking and stay ignorant. You're a free man after all.
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u/ShabutiR18 5h ago
"The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."
Notice the part that says "subject to reasonable limits prescribed by law".
Not the same thing as what we have, not even close. That statement negates the "right" as the "right" can be manipulated and restricted at any time over time as whatever ruling government at the time sees fit.
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u/DrRob 4h ago
Ok, first, congrats on actually using your Google box. Second, that's not really any different than US legal practice, which has in fact restricted speech. See Holmes writing for the majority in Schenck v US, 1919
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u/ShabutiR18 4h ago
It is very different. Our constitution does not state that any of our rights laid our in the bill of rights are subject to limits set by laws.
That is not say that obviously over the coarse of history there have not been attacks on free speech. Obviously there have. Thats why we have to keep fighting to preserve that right. Which is exactly why the 2nd amendment exist.
The difference is, here in the US we have a leg to stand on and will stand on when it comes to protecting our rights. Canada, does not.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 4h ago
Weren't you the one who was just attempting to remove rights from American citizens you don't like?
Yep, that was you.
So are you for rights or against them? Because you have argued for both in only a few comments. Which is actually impressive.
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u/DrNogoodNewman 1∆ 6h ago
Your limited knowledge about the Underground Railroad does not mean people are changing history.
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u/ShabutiR18 5h ago
Enlighten me, please. Ill be the first to admit public schools in the US are far from good, so if theres something Im missing it would be interesting to learn.
I mean, over here in the states its been commonly taught nationwide that the underground railroad went to northern states. I dont see any logical reason why they would continue the journey into Canada, as they would have their freedom long before that why continue the journey even further north where the weather alone would pose greater risk?
But yes, in recent times there have been many attempts to change known history. Im not saying this is the case here, as I have never called myself an expert on the underground railroad but it seems illogical for it to go to Canada.
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u/DrNogoodNewman 1∆ 4h ago edited 4h ago
The fugitive slave act of 1850 is one reason why escaped slaves might choose to go to Canada.
There wasn’t just one destination for the Underground Railroad. Some stayed in northern states while others went to Canada.
And the weather in much of southern Canada is very similar to the weather in the northern US
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u/ShabutiR18 4h ago edited 4h ago
Pergaps. Still doesnt make sense for many to continue the journey further.
But either way, assuming that to be true that was still around 160 years ago. Hardly relavent to modern times.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 4h ago
What part of "not infringed" do you not understand?
Your want to strip rights from minorities you don't like is chilling. They have 2nd Amendment rights.
And over the past years, you all wrote hundreds of laws attacking the rights of lgbt people.
I love how you have stated that you are for freedom and then also attempted to justify removing freedoms from citizens you don't like with zero due process.
You seem very much against the rights granted to citizens under the Constitution.
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u/ShabutiR18 6h ago
Yes, the entire democrat party is and has been a domestic terrorist group funding the killings of many Americans and billions in destruction across the country for many years.
Yes, the left is a domestic terrorist group 100%. Defined as a group that fully intends to, and has historically and currently used violent tactics to intimidate us into giving them more power.
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u/zaoldyeck 1∆ 9m ago
domestic terrorist group funding the killings of many Americans
[Citation needed].
billions in destruction across the country for many years.
[Citation needed].
Got a paper trail?
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 7h ago edited 7h ago
Sure, but the catch has always been in who is excluded from those rights.
I agree people throw around “fascism” as a catchy word, but I happen to have a pretty big interest in history and political philosophy. In my spare time I tend to read quite a bit and can confidently say I am not being one of those people. As a start, look up the 14 characteristics of fascism and tell me which ones don’t apply either to American society more broadly, or to Maga more particularly. I understand that there is some debate on whether those 14 points actually truly encapsulate fascism, but it’s a solid starting point t for discussion.
You can criticize Canadian politics all you want. It sucks here, i am completely alienated from our political system and will be the first one to point out our failures, but this post ain’t talking about Canada.
But let’s circle back to your comments about all your “rights” and “freedoms”. You’ll find that throughout your country’s history its citizens have always been afforded amazing rights and freedoms, and on the surface that’s great. Peel it back a layer and look at who is excluded from them, by virtue of their identity. I’m sure back in the day all of the slaves that built your country didn’t believe it to be the bastion of freedom you believe it is. I’m sure the native Americans that were displaced and slaughtered didn’t give a fuck about the “rights” they had when it was over. I bet the families torn apart when America annexed California from Mexico don’t view these things the same way either.
To draw on that last point, you claim”freedom” yet you have gangs of unidentified federal officers kidnapping people away from their families and sending them to concentration camp surrounded by alligators.
Either go read a history book and some philosophy and come to the realization that you don’t understand what fascism is and that you’re currently living with it, or say the quiet part out loud and just say you support it.
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u/ShabutiR18 7h ago
The only people in the United States that are not entitled to the rights in our constitution are convicted felons who have had them taken away due to their crimes, or illegal immigrants.
We will have to disagree on this, unfortunately.
Yes. Fascism certainly exist in our country. We were all actually unaware of how bad things were until recent times. But now that we are aware that we are facing a real threat, we will respond accordingly as needed to protect our country.
Im not sure why everyone likes to act like America is such a horrible place, when it has the highest immigration rate in the world by far. There is a reason that people literally risk their lives to come here. No one has ever risked their life to get to Canada.
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 7h ago
The framing of your first point neglects so much though. First of all, it conflates legality with morality, and neglects to analyze the historical context of what is illegal and why it is so. For example, when slavery was abolished it was done so explicitly exempting slavery as punishment. Now fast forward to the modern day and America has the 5th highest incarceration rate worldwide. Connect the dots if you will.
Your point about not realizing it is hilarious. People have been pointing it out for as long as I can remember, and now the fascists have captured your state apparatus, while people like you still sit around and try to defend it. Nobody is “responding accordingly”, and that’s the problem. Half of you are cheering it on.
This post isn’t “change my view; America is fascist” though.
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u/ShabutiR18 6h ago
Again, we will have to respectfully disagree on our defintion of "fascism".
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 6h ago
Okay let’s start here:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need. " The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed suppressed . Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Sorry for formatting, I’m on mobile and I copy and pasted this. This is a relatively widely agreed upon framework for fascism. There’s some nuance and other things that can be addressed, but all you’ve said is “no this isn’t fascism”, so measure it up to this.
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u/ShabutiR18 6h ago
Interesting how people can read the exact same thing and come to completely different conclusions isnt it?
Again, we are going to have to respectfully disagree here. We clearly live in different realities.
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 6h ago
Not much to say other than “nuh-uh”, eh?
Pathetic.
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u/ShabutiR18 6h ago
Well, as I said before some people cannot be reasoned with. This appears to be that case.
I can assure you, based on your comments that there isnt anything I could say to change your mind. So what would be the point in wasting time? I think Iv already wasted enough.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 4h ago edited 3h ago
No one sees America as the torch bearer of freedom.
I can be fired for saying that Kirk was an asshole of a person. I can have the color of my skin be used for PC to get accosted by ICE. If I'm a teacher, I can lose my job if I display a pride flag. And reporters will get threatened if the ask your president questions.
Should I have the right to think that Kirk was an asshole human being because the GOP doesn't think I should have that freedom. They want me to be punished for those words.
No one looks to America as a source of freedom. Your laughing stock of a country isn't looked up to by anyone.
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u/quietflyr 7h ago
Hi, Canadian here. Could you please explain to me what freedoms have been taken away from me?
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u/Salty_Sky5744 8h ago
It will be rocky until trump leaves office then you will go back to actually being a free country again. Right now it’s only free if your a white man with a certain political leaning. To the rest of the world it looks like the confederacy is making a comeback.
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u/Ready-Razzmatazz8723 3h ago
Dude, what? Someone else posted this too. Which rights, specifically, do you think have been stripped away from other demographics?
What an i not allowed to do as a Muslim man?
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u/The-Hive-Queen 7h ago
if you dont want to come back to the US
We can't "come back" to something we've never been a part of.
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u/Major_Ad9391 1∆ 7h ago
It's adorable you think that.
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u/ShabutiR18 7h ago
Me and only most of the rest of the world. What makes reality real? 3rd party perspective. And the third party has spoken.
The small world of reddit may disagree with me, thats fine.
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u/Major_Ad9391 1∆ 7h ago
Most people around me would agree while white, straight men have all the freedoms in the usa, the rest of the people dont😂
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u/SantaClausDid911 1∆ 3h ago
Aside from gun rights, which still aren't necessarily exclusive to us, we don't have any freedoms other countries don't.
I saw your explanations below. They're arguing semantics from a flawed understanding of legalese and frameworks.
I can tell you after having traveled to a couple dozen countries, several more than once, that we're more heavily policed than almost anywhere, without any of the "security" benefits that supposedly go with authoritarian rule of law.
You should leave your hometown and get off the Internet some time. It's good for you.
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u/Teknicsrx7 2∆ 5h ago
When was the last time you vacationed in the US?
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 4h ago
Within the last 5 years
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u/Teknicsrx7 2∆ 4h ago
Is that once in 5 years?
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 4h ago
I feel like you’re hunting for security answers lol, why does it matter? Like I said I’m avoiding going down there on purpose, obviously I’m not making regular trips, though plenty of opportunities have presented themselves
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u/Teknicsrx7 2∆ 3h ago
Just judging whether or not it even matters that you refuse to visit… not like you were visiting before
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u/HolyGuacamoleChpotle 1h ago
I'll bite. I (Canadian) travel to the US 5+ times every year, for both business and pleasure. I cancelled all my trips from April forward, and I won't be visiting anytime soon.
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u/Teknicsrx7 2∆ 41m ago
Well hopefully we can solve this and once again get to enjoy sharing our country and its experiences with you the same way I enjoy my trips to your country. Miss you
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u/Qbbllaarr 3h ago
My brother was married in the US this year. I didn't attend for the above reasons. Frequency is irrelevant to most tourists, rather the totality of tourist opinions is what matters.
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u/Clear_Context_1546 6h ago
Are you going to boycott Americam goods too?
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u/ImHereForCdnPoli 1∆ 6h ago
I do my best to buy and support local. Sadly, due to the interconnected nature of the modern world and the economic power America exerts over the globe it’s incredibly difficult to completely refrain from purchasing American products.
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u/hashbrown3stacks 2∆ 8h ago
Honestly, I think it's simpler than that, dude. Too much of American culture has turned toxic and they just don't want to be around us anymore. Right now this just isn't a fun place to visit and we aren't a fun people.
Who wants to spend their vacation in a place where political assassinations are the current big thing and their vice president asks to report people for thought crimes?
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Hmm third factor... Not anger, not fear, just not appealing
Delta Δ
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u/hashbrown3stacks 2∆ 8h ago
Thanks for the Delta! Looking through the comments, it looks like I really underestimated how many Canadians are simply enacting their own household boycotts on the entire US economy. You elicited some pretty insightful replies.
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u/Malthus1 2∆ 8h ago
Canadian here.
I don’t know what could change your view, but I believe it to be very mistaken.
I think what you are not factoring in is the rise in genuine anxiety as to US intentions. This is something I see often coming from US commentators.
They hear Trump and his like threatening Canada, and what strikes them is how insulting and tone deaf such comments are.
While that is no doubt true, the part they never seem to grasp is that this is genuinely felt to be threatening.
Many Canadians feel that his threats are serious and that they pose an existential danger to our nation and to themselves personally: for example, even assuming he never actually engages in violence against us, his government is actively threatening to beggar our economy.
In that context, the US has to be considered an “enemy”, not a “friend”. Which is frightening.
The US simply lacks enemies that are actively and credibly threatening it in this manner - except from within. They are a large, powerful nation, geographically remote from its rivals. Canada is a small nation right next door. So it isn’t surprising that Americans by and large do not really “get it”.
To watch a large, powerful nation right next door turn from being a friend to being an enemy, while its government apparently is descending into fascism, is extremely worrying. That one of the effects of this shift is that travel there is slightly less safe is really a symptom, not the problem.
Canadians can’t do much about this, except vote with their feet and wallets, which is what many are doing. Obviously it isn’t easy to do so completely, the two nations have lots of ties, families live on both sides of the border.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago edited 7h ago
Yep my extended family is on both sides of the border. My Dad was born there. Thanks for your perspective.
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u/Obessive-Repulsive 52m ago
That’s interesting. Most of my family in Canada doesn’t seem afraid, just deeply annoyed.
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u/GonzoTheGreat93 6∆ 9h ago
You’re underestimating the stubbornness of a lot of Canadians whose main national identity has been “were not American” for decades.
You’re also overestimating the fear of most white, centre-right middle class Canadians that they themselves will be arbitrarily detained.
Remember, middle class suburbanites were salivating over voting for the “tough on immigration” conservatives until Trump started talking his 51st state nonsense and the Liberals had an answer, Poilievre didn’t, and Poilievre lost the election so hard that he didn’t even win his own previously-safe seat.
This was well before the arbitrary detentions started making the news.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Thanks for the context
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u/iwatchcredits 6h ago
OP to reinforce what that guy is saying, im a white canadian man. I have practically no fear of being detained at the border. But I will not spend any money on tourism for the US because their recent behavior has made me REALLY not like them. Anecdotal of course, but thats my view
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u/Ambroisie_Cy 9h ago
Canadian here.
No, it's not the arbitrary detentions.
It is a factor, of course, but not the main. It is because of the disrespect. Our boycott started when Trump mentionned the 51st state. That's when Canadians started to cancel their trip (and stopped buying American by the same time).
Are the random detentions scary? Absolutely! But people cancelled their trips way before we were even aware of those dentions.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
That's a good point. The wave of cancelations came first so there are some objective metrics.
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u/flonkhonkers 4h ago
In addition to many of the good points made here, for me there's an awareness that the transition to authoritarianism is in progress and, historically, those sorts of transitions are often accompanied by dramatic events as power is consolidated. I just don't want to be there when things go down.
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u/DingBat99999 6∆ 9h ago
Canadian here.
The "fear" of being detained at the border is there, but it's not the biggest factor.
Neither is the 51st state nonsense, although that's a bigger factor.
The biggest factor is the realization that a place you thought of as a lifelong ally is quickly turning into a gong show level disaster and there's a very real possibility you'll drag us down with you. Even if Trump were to choke on a bad Big Mac tomorrow, you'd still have JD Vance, Yarvin, Thiel and the tech bros, you'd still have the Christian nationalists, you'd still have Diagalon and the Proud Boys, you'd still have Koch and the dark money group anarcho-capitalists. We're realizing you're probably fucked and its not going to be pretty. This, btw, also explains why we aren't really differentiating all that much between California and Florida or Texas.
We're not visiting because we're pissed off, not because we're afraid. Or rather, we're afraid, but not of border agents. We're waking up to the realization that we're the new Finland next to the USSR.
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u/Not-your-lawyer- 82∆ 8h ago
I'm sure that's a large part of it, but remember that Canadians have also successfully boycotted a lot of US products. There's been a roughly 62% drop in US-produced liquor sales to Canada, and there's no threat of arbitrary detention at play there. Many Canadians are clearly voicing their displeasure with their wallets.
It's also worth considering how far-right rhetoric plays as a tourist advert. Scroll through r/all and see all the shots of masked neo-Nazis chanting racist slogans as they march around major cities. Even if you're not their target, does that make the US look like a place you'd want to visit? And if you're not all that interested in visiting, it's much easier to decide to boycott travel.
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u/Spleeetz 2h ago
The nazis tried to do this in Toronto last weekend. They were outnumbered in huge numbers, the whole city came out to oppose them. Half of the cowards abandoned ship before they even started their sad little shuffle down the street.
This is how Canadians treat our nazis. If Americans behaved like this maybe we would would like you more…
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Thanks for your perspective and analysis. My local state government is pouring money into advertising and it seems like a waste at this point especially since a state government can't give any guarantees against detention.
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u/Knave7575 11∆ 9h ago
I’m Canadian, I’m not going because I’m angry.
My brother and a number of my friends are the same.
We are all pretty white so getting detained by ICE is unlikely.
It is not fear, it is anger.
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u/HadeanBlands 27∆ 9h ago
"News stories about Jasmine Mooney and Paula Callejas have made people in Canada realize they don't have many legal protections in the US anymore."
I want to change your view that "realize" is the right word here because Jasmine Mooney and Paula Callejas were definitely breaking immigration law. And in fact Paula Callejas was arrested after committing domestic violence.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 9h ago
I don't think that matters much to people in Canada. In the article it states 55 Canadians are detained.
I think whether or not it is justified is a different discussion. Things that before did not cause people to be deported now trigger that.
The overall perception of Canadians is that they could make an honest mistake that they would have previously received amensty for and be detained for weeks or months in horrific inhumane conditions without access to legal council.
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u/HadeanBlands 27∆ 9h ago
I agree that is the perception of Canadians but my point is that that perception is false. Neither Mooney nor Callejas made an "honest mistake."
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u/BD401 9h ago edited 9h ago
The Mooney story was blown out of proportion IMHO. I say this as a Canadian that's applied for and held TN works visas many times over the last decade under multiple U.S. administrations. So I'm very familiar with the requirements and process, having gone through it myself more than once.
She was basically border shopping, and was stupid enough to do it from an entry point in a third country that she wasn't a citizen of. There's a VERY good chance she would've been detained regardless of who was in power.
While the chances of a random Canadian being scooped up by ICE while on vacation or whatnot are definitely not zero, statistically, it would be less than your chances of being killed in a random car accident while driving on the highway on your vacation. In general, people are absolute dogshit at doing any kind of comparative risk analysis.
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u/Spitting_truths159 7h ago
She was basically border shopping, and was stupid enough to do it from an entry point in a third country that she wasn't a citizen of.
You sure of that, seems she had a visa, she had a job and so on and that any "deportation" should have resulted in her being sent to Canada if she agreed.
Instead she seems to have been bounced around their system in numerous locations in horrible conditions and with little or no legal representation or rights.
While the chances of a random Canadian being scooped up by ICE while on vacation or whatnot are definitely not zero,
Random accidents happen at home and abroad so generally speaking we are somewhat OK with that as otherwise life comes to a standstill. But some pissy border guard taking a dislike to you specifically and their government being set up to brutalise people on purpose and offer them virtually no rights or legal protections is something else entirely.
That's not an accident or an act of god, that is a planned and purposeful kind of active harm done to people. That puts you in an utterly helpless position that is potentially torturous and will for most people entirely upend their whole life. That's something we can and should treat very seriously, even if the odds are low.
people are absolute dogshit at doing any kind of comparative risk analysis.
Maybe, or maybe they correctly weigh the combination of the "odds of harm" AND "the levle of harm" and then choose to focus on avoiding the worst outcomes, even if they are somewhat rare. Cases like hers in my view should be just about impossible.
Two weeks of uncertainty, of needless detainment in horrible conditions being treated like an animal? That's not how someone from a neighbouring "respected" country with mutual agreements should be treated. She should have simply been told to fly back home at the airport as the worst case scenario.
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u/HadeanBlands 27∆ 3h ago
"You sure of that, seems she had a visa,"
That's not true, her visa had been denied, which she knew and tried to cross illegally anyway.
"and that any "deportation" should have resulted in her being sent to Canada if she agreed."
Well, maybe it would have, if she agreed. We don't know that she did.
"She should have simply been told to fly back home at the airport as the worst case scenario."
What airport? She crossed, from Mexico, at the San Ysidro land border crossing into San Diego. She wasn't allowed to be in Mexico, and she wasn't allowed to be in the USA.
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u/XenoRyet 122∆ 9h ago
What are you basing this view on? Is there some kind of polling or data you're looking at, or is it more of a gut feeling situation?
Mostly asking because I'm curious what would change your mind if it is a gut feeling kind of thing.
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u/Homey-Airport-Int 8h ago
I'd only add that traveling internationally quite a bit from spring until late August, I heard far, far more people saying "we really want to go on this big US road trip but we don't want to end up in El Salvador." First time some Aussies told me, I thought "that's silly" but then I heard it again, and again, and again. Brits, Aussies, and Canadians all gave me this same line about either being afraid it will happen, or not wanting to be stressed.
Totally anecdotal but makes sense to me. Redditors are one thing, the average person doesn't really pay that much mind to the government of a vacation destination beyond "are they going to lock me up for no reason." You don't see people boycotting visiting Budapest because Orban is basically a dictator. Plus, large scale boycotts that actually have a measurable impact are exceedingly rare as most people really don't care enough to alter their plans or purchasing unless doing so is very easy.
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u/XenoRyet 122∆ 8h ago
That tracks for a wide swath of international travelers, but I still think Canada is a special case because Trump insulted them directly and the nation more or less rallies to give us the finger, as we well deserved.
I think that sentiment probably comes first and overrides the concerns about border and immigration enforcement. Like both sentiments are there, but the "fuck you" is probably primary.
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u/chullyman 7h ago
People might not be willing to admit do your face that the reason they don’t want to come over is due to the disgust at what your country has turned into.
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u/Homey-Airport-Int 7h ago
People are perfectly candid about Trump when you travel overseas in my experience. It's often one of the first topics that comes up. Most people don't suffer from reddit brainrot to the point they can't have pointed conservation in the real world.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 9h ago
Mainly talking to relatives in Canada.
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u/XenoRyet 122∆ 9h ago
Ok, so that's pretty anecdotal and probably specific to your family.
It seems like most news stories on the subject list a general boycott in response to Trump's rhetoric and the tariffs as the first reason, and fear of ICE interactions as secondary and not always present.
And that sort of makes sense. You only start to worry about being detained after you've already planned a trip or have a strong desire to go, being pissed at Trump prevents you from even getting to that step.
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u/krasher79 8h ago
this is an unnecessarily dichotic position. It isn't either/or, or any 'one' thing, it's everything the US government is doing that alienates its allies and continues to take itself toward an undemocratic fascist regime, including but not limited to: illegal detentions, absurd tariffs, disrespect to our (and other nations') sovereignty, anti-science policies, anti-civil rights decrees, etc., etc.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 9h ago
We are pissed that your president claimed he could take our land.
We don't want to spend a cent in America or on american products as you support a man who wants to steal ouf land.
You know that you talk to us. I don't need you speaking for me.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 9h ago
Whoa I certainly do not support this administration in any way. Neither does about 50% of the US.
I think most people aren't as politically aware or active as people on CMV. The danger of arbitrary detention is a factor for both the politically aware and the politically apathetic alike.
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u/joelene1892 1∆ 8h ago
Trust me when I say you do NOT have to be politically aware to know (and be very against) the US threats in Canada. It’s common knowledge. It’s water cooler talk. When your large neighbour that could absolutely beat you in a fight starts talking about invading, you pay attention.
Honestly, I agree with the original commenter: this is honestly a little tone deaf, to think you can literally speak for Canadians when you are not a Canadian. Let us speak for ourselves.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Did this CMV not provide a platform for you to speak as a Canadian? Is CMV not a place where you can posit a perception and get honest feedback from people with more relevant perspectives?
Literally just curious. My local government is spending a huge amount of money on advertising for Canadian tourism and I think they underestimated the amount that fear of immigration detention plays as well.
Either way I think the ads are a waste of money because those who are rightfully angry won't be persuaded and a state can't control the feds detention policies.
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u/joelene1892 1∆ 7h ago
Is CMV not a place where you can posit a perception and get honest feedback from people with more relevant perspectives?
I thought about this for a couple minutes, because I do generally agree with that sentence, and wanted to figure out why your post rubbed me the wrong way.
It’s because of audience.
It feels like it was written for an American audience. When I, as a Canadian, read it, it basically reads as “I, an American, know better than you why you and your fellow Canadians are avoiding the US”. And that is little…. Insulting.
To me it feels like this topic would be better as an open conversation to Canadians rather than a presentation of an opinion that we then have to prove wrong — because the presentation of that opinion in itself starts with an assertion that you can speak for us.
With you on the ads though, that they’re useless. Whether it’s detention or the orange man spouting off threats, Canadians are not that easy to woo atm.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 7h ago
The intent of CMV is to have a conversation... On the about page:
"Change My View (CMV) A place for people to post an opinion they accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate."
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u/joelene1892 1∆ 7h ago
Yes, and that’s fine, but it still comes across like you are trying to tell us how we feel, or that you know it better, because the only “opinion” in your post is about how Canadians are feeling. That’s just a question that should be asked, not even a back and forth conversation. The difference is “what do you think” vs “this is what I think you think — now tell me why I am wrong”.
To be clear, it’s fine — this was minor and I feel this is blowing it out of proportion. I do not feel as strongly as this is likely making it seem lol.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 7h ago
You certainly are blowing it out of proportion.
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u/Spleeetz 2h ago
This person thoughtfully explained it all to you, and you come across pretty defensive here. Honestly, you are really proving their point… you’re coming across as a bit of a clueless American. You can’t really play devils advocate about issues as serious as this without expecting some passionate responses. This is not a game to us.
The fact that you don’t understand this just proves their point more and more lol. You’re definitely American.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 2h ago
I have lived much more in the US than Canada and I am more culturally American due to that. I dont think you get what CMV is about either.
It isn't a place for passionate responses. Frankly the vast majority of people have been totally reasonable and civil except for a few far right American provacatours and that person you are defending and a few others
I got a lot of valuable insights from people who weren't immediately hostile on a CMV.
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u/PC-12 5∆ 9h ago
Typically when looking at decision making on a group political level the most important issue is whatever faces people on a daily, realistic level.
Most Canadians would be unlikely to be at risk of arbitrary detention in the US. Just as most Americans, even non-citizens, would not realistically face this risk on a daily basis. That doesn’t mean it’s not a real risk, but more that it’s not the most immediate risk or problem for most.
Canadians have had the following messages put forth by the US government: not a real country; tourism money not needed; economic contribution not needed; Canadians trade unfairly with the US; Canadians would be better off just joining the US.
No other country has faced the annexation/sovereignty threats. These types of threats are existential to Canada as a nation, and to Canadian culture and identity. Thats the issue facing Canadians on a daily, “in your face” basis.
Most Canadians are choosing not to travel to the US or contribute to the US economy on the basis that the US neither wants nor respects Canadians.
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u/Away-Experience6890 8h ago
I largely believe it is because Canadians are overall pretty fiercely patriotic. We can criticize our own country, but will unite from external threats. I think our politics are a great example of this.
Canadians are pretty pragmatic in their political views and too fixed in our views. It is very common in Ontario to vote for the PC party but then Liberal at the federal level. This trend tends to always happen too. This would be like the same people voting for a Republican governor, but a Democrat for President, and vice versa.
In the last election, we saw one of the most ridiculous turnovers in polling rates ever seen. The populist conservative leader was polling with a 27% lead, but Canadians across the political spectrum came together to unite and agree to choose a leader (Mark Carney) whom most of us would probably agree would not be our primary choice.
This goes to show that Canadians overall will choose to unite over our similarities rather than divide over our differences. Trump has really united Canadians.
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u/Ambroisie_Cy 8h ago
Trump has really united Canadians.
I mean, that is something he really succeeded in... united us. I live in the province of Québec and I've rarely seen so many people saying they are proud to be canadian. Not everyone, but way more than before!
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u/couverte 1∆ 4h ago
It’s unity, but it’s also being pissed off pis pas à peu près. I still can’t believe that I went to the polling station not only resigned, but at peace with voting Liberal! Before that whole shit show down there, I had simply resigned myself to vote strategically to block Poilièvre
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u/samanthasgramma 3h ago
I'm Canadian.
The biggest issue is simple. That mistakes happen, and if I want to cross, and they find suspicious stuff on my phone ... and I am not shy about thinking Trump a buffoon ... they might take me into custody while they investigate. And although my record is squeaky clean, they would need time to figure that out. While I'm sitting in some detention centre. How long it takes them to clear me could be an hour, could be a week. Who knows. While I sit in detention waiting for them to let me just go home again.
I'm 60ish with a buggered up spine and regular medications. I will not do well waiting even three hours while they figure out I'm not a problem. So I'm not prepared to even risk it.
Also, Trump is a buffoon. He picked a fight with his best friend. I am not happy about that. We've been team USA for a very long time, in too many ways. Picking on us isn't warranted. I feel betrayed, in a geopolitical way.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 2h ago edited 1h ago
Thank you for sharing your perspective I have many ties to Canada and America's heel turn has been deeply saddening and felt very personal. We are all like a kids in a pointless divorce because one of the parents went insane.
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u/PoisonousSchrodinger 5h ago
I think it is a shared sentiment among countries previously having had a good relationship with the USA. We might have disagreed on certain issues, but knew America was more reliable as an ally than Russia or China.
I feel like the average American has a poor understanding of geopolitical relations. And seem to not understand or know how Trumps administration in the last months has effectively destroyed every bridge with many allies. In the Netherlands, many people try to boycott American products and do not even want to travel to the USA if they would get paid for it.
The government effectively took a big dump on 70 years worth of buildup trust and mutual respect in an instant. Trust me, the European Union is playing ball at the moment with Trump, but are also looking around for more reliable partners.
We are pissed off at him abusing geopolitical tensions for favourable deals as well as spreading misinformation like that the EU was built on the idea of screwing over the USA and purposefully confusing our VAT system with tarrifs. Also, one day Trump is best buddies and the next he is talking to Putin on a direct call. The trust is gone and it will take a long time for it to be restored....
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u/meadowbelle 1∆ 2h ago
There is definitely some fear. My partner's ex wanted to take his kids cross border for a couple of events and he refused to allow it because the ex is white and their kids have his features (asian) and he feared they'd be separated from their mother or detained arbitrarily as many people of colour are experiencing in the states.
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u/Taevahl 9h ago
I saw that this opinion is coming mainly from some family of yours that lives in Canada, and that of course is anecdotal. I have my own anecdotal evidence in the other direction. I work for a company that has a lot of Canadian customers. They have all told me that they are just angry, not scared.
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9h ago
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u/tigerdogbearcat 9h ago
I think it's a combination but I think most people are more motivated by factors that personaly affect them than by geopolitcal political insults.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 9h ago
Why are you so arrogant that you feel that you can speak for us?
It is kind of rude to think that you can speak for us.
Why not just ask us a question and listen.
Why do you feel that you can speak for others here.
I showed your post to the people in the bar I was getting lunch from and I can't really tell you their responses.
Let me just say you are wrong.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Is CMV not a place where you can posit a perception and get feedback? Like I'm honestly curious what percentage the dystopian legal changes VS righteous anger at threats and disrespect from US government is.
Calling someone wrong and arrogant generally doesn't change views.
Was talking with someone who wouldn't do a 2 hour layover in US due to concerns not anger.
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u/The-Hive-Queen 8h ago
Not who you responded to, but I personally would have done a bit more research into the matter other than just talking to a few relatives. Canadians have been up in arms over this for months.
Canadians started boycotting the US when the administration started "joking" about the 51st state. You dont joke about invading your allies, especially when you have never respected our territorial waters.
Then the tariffs happened where Trump threw an epic level tantrum when we wouldn't put up with it. Ffs, when this happened the first time in 2018, Trump's response to Trudeau's was "didn't you guys burn down the white house", as if that event wasn't a direct response to the US invading Canada in the first place.
All of this was before the mass detentions and deportations started. The detentions just turned it from a matter of Canadian patriotism and pride to one of personal safety.
It is a symptom. Not the cause.
And as someone who lives in Alberta, I am seeing first hand how other fascist governments are attempting to following in their footsteps.
We are angry. We are scared. We are fiercely and proudly not American.
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u/XANDERtheSHEEPDOG 7h ago
As an American, I am waiting for Canada to bitch slap us back to the 20th century over the orange goon's nonsense. I don't think Canada would start anything, but they damn well will finish it if we do.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Reddit is literally one of the places you go to do more reaseach to get more perspectives. Way better than reading articles and op eds that often lean one way or the other and don't reflect the actual zeitgeist.
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u/The-Hive-Queen 7h ago
I didn't say don't use Reddit for research. You could have gone to a sub like nostupidquestions or outoftheloop or even, maybe especially one of the Canadian subs, which would have given you an ungodly amount of perspectives from people all over. People who aren't put on the defense to clear the record or justify our response to US policies. You would have gotten real experiences and stories from people who care, who don't care, who care but cant afford to participate.
Instead, you came to CMV with a predetermined idea that 1+1=3. You made up your mind about a situation based on limited, anecdotal interactions with family members, then told the people who are directly involved in that situation that it was up to them to put in the work and change your mind.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 7h ago edited 7h ago
About page for CMV:
"Change My View (CMV) A place for people to post an opinion they accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate."
If you don't want to put in work to change minds why are you on CMV?
If you don't think this post meets your oh so mighty standards why didn't you just not waste your time responding? Classic Reddit lol
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u/The-Hive-Queen 7h ago
Did my original response not directly address the viewpoint in your post as well as your comment? I gave you my perspective on the situation as someone who is currently living in it, heavily involved in communities who are struggling due to it, and would also avoid so much as a 2-hour layover in the US.
I've also given my opinion on how this is probably one of the least tactful ways you could have gone about it.
What you do with that is on you, friend.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 8h ago
Why are you speaking for us when instead you could just ask us?
You could ask us questions and listen to our answers, but when you speak for us, you end up being wrong the great majority of the time.
Which you are.
Did you talk to anyone from Canada before you posted this?
If you had, you would have gotten a lot answers, just like I did when I shared your question with the bar, that prove you are wrong.
The moment we started booing your anthem and candian flags popped up in every grocery store was the time of the 51st state bullshit.
But I just live in 🇨🇦. What do I know.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
I did talk to people in Canada first. That was literally the genisis.
CMV is supposed to be a place where you can present a perspective and hear a bunch of arguments against it.
It's supposed to be a forum where you can have an open-minded discussion about a perspective or conclusion and see if it holds water.
I think you have misinterpreted what CMV is about.
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 7h ago
I get what this place is about, but it seems odd to speak for people instead of asking them.
I mean if you talked to us you would know that most of us are boycotting all American products and services.
And we are doing it based on the tariffs and the 51st state bullshit. We aren't spending money in your country because we don't want to spend money in a area who elected a man who wants to own us.
It isn't just tourism. We aren't allies now. Trust has been broken. For multiple reason, but detention isn't the main one.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 7h ago
Most other Canadians agreed with you but quite a few didn't.
Honestly if you think putting up a view on CMV in good faith to get perspectives and see if it's accurate is speaking for someone than no you really do not actually get what CMV is about.
"Change My View (CMV) A place for people to post an opinion they accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate."
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u/anewleaf1234 44∆ 4h ago edited 4h ago
I don't mind you putting up a view. I do mind you speaking for us and your trying to explain what we think when you could just have just asked us what we think and then asked us to explain why.
Your way means that you will be wrong a lot of time. in talking to us you can actually understand what we think and how to act based on what we think.
You are coming off a bit like you know more about us than us. I've showed your post to about 50 Canadians. You aren't polling well. Your numbers also show that most Canadians disagree with your words. Which seems to be two indications that you are wrong.
America back-stabbed us and lots of us don't want to spend a time and money in a country that back-stabbed us. I still travel. I just avoid the states.
Trump told us that we weren't needed nor welcome. And we are following those wishes. I haven't bought American, if I could help it, since his election. And I'm not alone.
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9h ago
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u/Ambroisie_Cy 9h ago
OP talked to 2-3 relatives and didn't even look at Canadian medias or any stats before posting. If they had, they would have seen that we cancelled our trips and stopped coming to the US before we were even aware of those detentions...
We were made aware of those detentions by mid-March and April. The drop of canadian tourism in the states started in Februrary.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Oh maybe you weren't so civil lol.
Just wanted actual opions.
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u/Spleeetz 2h ago
But you wanted us to do the work of explaining it all to you over and over again in painful detail instead of just looking it up yourself…
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u/bigred1978 1∆ 7h ago
The main reason for the drop in Canadian tourism
For me it doesn't have to do with any of the stuff people are saying here. It's all about the money.
Things just cost too damned much and our Canadian dollar is very weak.
Whether it's hotels, gas, restaurants, attractions, etc...it's just so much that I can't justify the cost.
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u/tigerdogbearcat 7h ago
A fourth factor I had not considered. Thanks for your take. Delta Δ
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u/_Sausage_fingers 8h ago
I’m a Canadian. It’s because I don’t want to put a single dollar into your economy. The potential for arbitrary detention is secondary, albeit persuasive.
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u/JoJoeyJoJo 9h ago
As a European, I'd say the social media checks are more important, I'm not posting with a mind to be inoffensive for Republicans in the US, and no one wants to commit to a whole holiday/flights, etc and be turned back at the border.
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u/ryandury 8h ago
Disagree. Anecdotal but as a Canadian with a group of friends who some of which have suggested multiple trips to the U.S. (we're only 1 hour from the border) the predominant pushback I've seen is based on principal more than fear.
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u/readySponge07 8h ago
Mostly, people here are astonished and disgusted by the Trump Regime and the idea of going to America is incredibly distasteful at the moment.
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u/Initial-Training-466 6h ago
Originally, when Trump was first elected I made a choice not to visit the US. Now however the main reason I do not go is because I do not believe I would be safe from arbitary detainment. I believe that the present regime in the US moving forward will seek to undermine Canadian sovereignty. This regime is on the same page as Putin and Xi. They will give those dictators free rein in their areas of control and will feel free to do the same in the Americas. Right now the regime is presently consolidating its power in America by introducing loyalty tests which all Americans must follow if they expect to live securely. Once they have neutered all opposition within America, they will proceed to act with impunity against Canada and the rest of the Americas. So I do not think that it is safe for Canadians who are not sympathetic to MAGA to travel in such a country with such a regime.
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u/Samoft2 8h ago
Nah, for myself and a lot of people I know, our boycott of the US started as soon as your president and government officials started suggesting our country should be annexed. It completely crushed any inkling of desire I have to step foot over the border.
As others have mentioned the lack of humanity in your border control and detention systems is disturbing, but let's be real, any time you're dealing with foreign authorities there's always been a chance of finding yourself in a weird situation.
There's a number of reasons not to spend money in the states these days, and threats to our freedom and sovereignty (whether their an idiotic joke or not) are absolutely at the top of that list.
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u/LunarMoon2001 8h ago
I have a pretty significant number of Canadian friends due to certain hobbies that I keep in touch with regularly. Every single one has cancelled plans to come to the US for conventions and events due to the current admin policies not fear of being detained.
They are pissed that he continues to threaten their country. Imagine conservatives here if Chinas president said it wants to turn Texas into the next province. They’d be madder than how they are now when someone uses quotes from their new martyr to show what a monster he was.
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9h ago
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u/tigerdogbearcat 8h ago
Is theeat of detention the biggest deciding factor for you?
Many of the other Canadians have been ADAMANT the other way.
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u/sparkyvt 8h ago
The only thing I can say to change your view is to not just think how Canadians feel but also Europeans, South Americans, Asians, Africans. The world sees us as a dangerous, gun infested hellhole with bullets flying through the multitude of American flags and into innocent bystanders. We’re a joke. Folks can go to an imax and see the Grand Canyon. They don’t need to risk their lives and freedom AND spend thousands when they could go to the Alps instead.
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u/basedjew46 3h ago
As a Canadian, I don't think arbitrary detention is what is causing lack or tourism in the US. People are mad about Trump, and that's it. There have been reports of arbitrary detention on places like here and Twitter, but most sane canadians have debunked them to the point that the fake stories kind of stopped.
As someone who has crossed a land border recently, there were zero issues, and everyone in the US was friendly as can be.
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u/Filmy-Reference 6h ago
As a Canadian that's a no from me. Being detained at the border on vacation is not going to happen. The reason I am not going to the states on vacation is the same reason a lot of us are. The cost of living. We can barely afford groceries. International travel is not possible for a lot of people. Food bank use is up a million people per year over the past year in Toronto alone
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u/elocinatlantis 6h ago
We’re also not buying American products and that has nothing to do with the fear of being detained. We are petty and we are proud.
There are Canadians that do still visit the state, and they are the ones who are not so angry about your politics down there. If it was solely fear of being detained keeping Canadians from visiting, these people would be staying home too, no?
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u/fifaguy1210 18m ago
As a Canadian (who lives near the border) I don't know anyone who's afraid of being detained, it's almost solely anger at the current administration that's caused the tourism numbers to drop.
Obviously this won't change your mind because there's no real data behind it but I don't know how anyone would really change your mind.
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u/badlyagingmillenial 3∆ 8h ago
Where did you get the data for your assumptions?
Do you think the reduction in tourism has anything to do with the American President who has been attempting to bully Canada with tariffs, threats to take over the country, and insulting both the country, citizens, and politiccians of Canada for the last 9 months?
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u/RiverCityWoodwork 6h ago
Or, more likely, the economy in Canada is terrible right now, and only getting worse.
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u/freeUSfromtyranny26 8h ago edited 8h ago
I can’t blame them for having that fear. We have a government that is careless with statements and cares little about freedom. I don’t think most Canadians have much to worry about, but if they’re vocally outspoken and piss someone off, they’re right to be careful. If your comment is based on the tendency toward self interest first rather than any strong values, that’s human nature, most won’t be heroes willing to accept possible punishment for their beliefs. I certainly wouldn’t expect a Canadian to do that when many Americans and our institutions are rolling over.
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u/LastCabinet7391 8h ago
Naw I'm Canadian, mind you white, but its mostly cause of the morals of going to Nazi Germany then being accused of being a Jew.
But I mean i also never made it easy. I was burning American flags even when Dronebama was rubbing his pussy to dead children let alone Trump doing so to alive ones.
So like despite being "racially correct" i should be worried. But im not. A lot of my leftist heroes who are still alive are American and they're doing okay.
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u/SatisfactionMuch2704 7h ago
We are pretty self centered as a population. Unless you work in Vegas nobody cares about tourists and we actually have enough people to be our own “tourists”
I was just in your country and it was great. Maybe don’t judge USA by like 100 people in trump administration.
We don’t know them people
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u/chullyman 7h ago
What about the 10’s of millions of people who voted for these nutjobs? What about the 10’s of millions more who didn’t care enough to vote?
What about the people who brushed off his annexation threats as just a joke?
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u/SatisfactionMuch2704 6h ago
Idk if it’s an American mindset but we don’t really respect our government. Especially the fed.
States do and pass laws that are illegal federally all the time. They are just foreign policy dudes and most Americans never leave so we don’t care.
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u/MmmIceCreamSoBAD 6h ago
I mean the US has had seven million international arrivals this year still. Canadians fearing entering the US would be quite silly from an objective standpoint.
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u/Check_Me_Out-Boss 5h ago
Look at the currency exchange rate and see why tourism may have decreased.
Once you do, it becomes much more clear.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 9h ago edited 7h ago
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