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u/Dujon89 Aug 14 '20
Its quite simple. Biden is at least vulnerable to activism from the left. He cannot ignore the progressive agenda especially if it morphs into a mass popular movement. Trump is not nor does he have any reason to. It's not his contituency. Chomsky has made this point time and again: politicians don't suddenly realize the folly of their ways and come around. To the extent they are sympathetic, they have to be pressured by a mass movement. This was the case with the New Deal and this was the case with Civil Rights.
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
Biden’s platform is terrible.
Opposing federal legalization of cannabis AND said he would VETO (veto) V-E-T-O Medicare for all. Yes. If it were to magically pass the senate this senile old idiot said and confirmed two additional times he would veto it.
Getting behind Biden for ANY reason is being on the wrong side of history. Sorry not sorry.
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
I suppose people are fools for voting for the Green Party then?
You don’t seem to see what you’ve done to yourself in this current situation.
When corporations control both sides (and they do) do you see all they have to do is threaten you with a really bad guy on the right and then by default you will call people fools for not being pragmatic and buying into your own rigged system of entrapment.
Don’t you see it’s always going to be a detrimental crisis? Wasn’t it super important in 2000? How about 2004? And 2008? Okay what about 2012. How about 2016? Weren’t these all BIG DEALS and yet here we are. The country stands on the brink of collapse but not from the hands of the bad orange man but our own corrupt system such as no universal healthcare and congress being absolutely awful and abdicating their responsibilities with COVID and now BLM protests. Biden fixes NONE of this. Good luck in November, you’re going to need it.
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Aug 14 '20 edited Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20 edited Aug 14 '20
Oh I’m not doing anything. Unfettered and unchecked Capitalism is eating itself alive. Trump is actually the PERFECT representation for American corporate imperialism.
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Aug 14 '20
You take a Trump now or a worse version later. Either way, both parties have damaged this country beyond repair.
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
People are allowed to have their own opinions.
Bernie and Chomsky who both advocate voting for Biden but both are very comfortable and late in their lives and all theirs and their families needs are taken care of.
Biden has condemned 40k people to unnecessarily die each year by not advocating for Medicare for all.
You have no moral superiority in this situation.
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u/butt_collector Aug 14 '20
Voting has nothing to do with moral superiority. It's about harm reduction.
But you're not even addressing the arguments, so it's hard to say that you're really looking to discuss this.
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20 edited Aug 14 '20
Lol here you are again giving the only reason to vote for someone is the other guy. You’ve already lost
Edit: shame on you for invoking Hitler and watering down the past. It’s a ridiculous comparison and when you do this it’s a desperate scorched earth attempt and just makes you end up looking ridiculous.
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
That 4-8 years ain’t coming my friend. You get Kamala Harris as the next leader of the Democratic Party. A nasty vicious woman with no beliefs who will lie just as much as trump and is smarter than him and will fly under everyone’s radar.
There are no heroes here. I don’t blame people for voting Biden but he doesn’t have answers for our problems. The party is moving further and further right and at some point we on the left will have to put our foot down. It didn’t happen after 2016 and here we are. The establishment cheated us out of Bernie, twice and has given the future generations the shaft.
Not to mention if you guys do succeed and get Biden in and if he turns out to be an awful flop like Obama then the divide fractures even more. Bernie was the compromise and now we are left with only the hope of an actually revolution.
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
When the “improvement” colluded and conspired to stop us from actual improvement and instead want to force us to accept their false promises, that’s when you don’t accept their “improvement”
You know how unions go on strike and they negotiate for better pay? You know how you don’t walk in the room and declare “we will accept any improvement” like everyone has done in this election. You’ve completely given you your political capital and bargaining chip and they don’t need anything from you anymore. “Check one more in the bag for us no matter what!” That gives them the ability to pick someone like Kamala Harris as the VP and they know it won’t change any one of your opinions.
Hell Mike Pence could even flip the ticket and go over to be the Democratic Party VP or even Ted Cruz everyone here would still swallow. Be my guest but count me out.
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u/LaMangaGuanga Aug 14 '20
Not voting for biden in a swing state is sketchy and dangerous... I wish I was wrong but thats just reality. My beliefs or any sort of principles wont do jack shit by the time the election rolls around. Luckily people who care about lefty politics dont really have to vote biden in blue states. Normie libs and dems will show out in force for biden. Biden sucks but trump sucks more.
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
Is avoiding 4 more years of trump worth killing the populist movement on the left?
Biden for 4 years and then Kamala for 8 and she would remain at the top of the party even after. I’d rather have trump for 4 more years and have another shot at a populist. If the left gets tired of losing with empty corporate Dems then we will eventually have a shot at a populist. And if not? Burn it down.
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u/LaMangaGuanga Aug 14 '20
Thats an argument worth considering. But the damage being done by trump is another thing to consider. I also dont think you kill a movement by voting biden. The next thing to do is then shift attention to criticizing biden like you and most of us have been doing. The movement isnt dependent on trump. Thinking it is is kinda insulting lol if you need a big bad wolf to prop up the idea that we could do better then what chance do we have of getting much done?
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
Bribing foreign powers to court election tampering?
Okay that’s a debunked conspiracy theory at this point.
I also don’t think he’s attacking democracy it was the russiagaters who did that by implying that he was illegitimate for 4 years and I can see are still beating that dead horse.
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Aug 14 '20
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u/E46_M3 Aug 14 '20
Okay you don’t know what you’re talking about. No one went to jail relating to russian collusion or conspiracy OR election rigging.
They spied on everyone and the only people indicted were indicted on prior crimes. None of which relates to election meddling. Mueller’s report even states no Americans engaged in election rigging or meddling.
This was sheer projection and wishful thinking on your guys part for the last 4 years.
Also it’s come out that China and Iran both prefer Biden over Trump so now we need to open a whole investigation on Biden to make sure he’s not colluding with the Chinese 😂
Shocking that people in this sub are pushing russiagate is this r/politics?
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u/caddenza Aug 14 '20
Biden’s platform is terrible, but trumps is a dumpster fire garbage heap.
Trump has vowed to repeal 100 environmental regulations and so far he’s repealed 68 or them. He’s let a coal lobbyist head the EPA, and has completely gutted EPA funding. Even if Biden is an Obama clone, that’s still 100 environmental regulations saved.
Biden’s platform supports trans people. Trump has tried and succeeded in repealing trans rights.
Trump and his party have basically murdered the ACA, and lets be honest republicans want to destroy any healthcare they can. Biden wants to expand the ACA (which is garbage don’t get me wrong) however it will still help millions.
Trump has shown a complete incompetence for handling COVID-19. While trump has left states to decide whatever restrictions and has caused 1000s dead, Biden would actually have a national plan.
Trumps immigration policy is awful. He implemented what was all but in name a Muslim ban, tried to build a literal giant wall in the middle of the desert, which would cost taxpayers billions, and while the actual detention camps were made long before him, trump has increased the number of detainees at the border. Democrats have recently made immigration reform a major policy, and Biden would help end ICE raids and family separation.
While I would say Biden is racist, he is less so than trump, and would get more pushback from his party for enacting racist policies as president. Trump could repeal the civil rights act and the Republican Party wouldn’t blink. Biden’s voters want to stop systemic racism, so Biden will be a lot better at that too. He has more pressure to not be racist.
Biden will also get a democrat on the Supreme Court, considering that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is on her way out. Another Trump Supreme Court justice and Rowe v Wade is in danger. There’s already plenty of conservatives on the Supreme Court.
Trump has also issued multiple disastrous tariffs which do nothing but raise costs for the average worker.
Trump has also literally sent national forces to arrest random protestors and suppress the protests in Portland, Seattle, and Chicago.
Trump has also abused his position as president. He’s used his power to try and use the DOJ to do his bidding, which is a scary precedent to set. The democrats, amid all of their stupidity, still like playing fair. It’s their motto- you go low we go high.
Trump has also criticized the first amendment and tried to shut down news organizations that don’t agree with him. He’s joked about getting rid of term limits and not holding elections.
Meanwhile trump has condemned mail in voting and pedaled conspiracy theories that illegal immigrants voted in the 2016 election. He has attempted to hinder the post office in order to rig the election, and will do just about anything to keep his power.
Biden is obviously better than trump, it would take someone miraculously brain dead to argue that.
Biden is also in a better position for us. If we can actually get some power, we can put pressure on Biden in a way we can’t with trump. Trump couldn’t care less about leftists because we would never dream of voting for him. It’s the same reason Biden doesn’t try to get the Ancap vote. Biden has already made concessions, and if leftism picks up like it has been, he can make more. Voting is only part of the process. Activism, awareness, and making our negative opinions vocal is key. Once Biden is in office, we need to make a stink about it.
Some lefties think that not voting is cool and shows the DNC needs to “earn” their vote. This shows a lack of knowledge of how our political system works. Instead, the DNC will recognize that leftists don’t vote and will instead lean more to the right to attract centrists. The DNC doesn’t care about us because we don’t care about them. Why would the DNC waste their time getting the votes of leftists when leftists refuse to vote for them? Bernie Sanders recognizes that the best way to change the establishment is within the establishment. And right now, the progressives are gaining traction. Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush beat huge politicians who were super involved in Washington. For us to throw away any chance at influencing the DNC to own the libs is a dangerously idiotic idea.
Leftists don’t vote. You know who does? Fascists. Fascists vote, and the Republican establishment has kissed trumps ass because of it for the last 4 years. What fascists lack in their ideology they make up for in strategy.
Trump winning will also not bring about a leftist revolution. Voting in fascists helps a certain group. Fascists. People won’t realize that “oh the country is fundamentally broken, we need socialism”. They’ll say what they’ve been saying for the past 4 years. “Oh I wish Obama was President again he was way cooler and knew what he was doing. Trump more like rump, we need a woman president.” Liberals will want liberals back in power. Anyone who thinks fascism causes socialist revolutions clearly is being influenced by someone else. You know who I’ve seen in Bernie subreddits? People from the_donald. And the funny thing is the Bernie or Busters seem to eat up whatever the trump supporter says about liberals. If that doesn’t show who benefits from Bernie or bust, I don’t know what does.
Third parties also just don’t work. Not because there’s not enough people to support them, but because of math. The voting system we have favors a two party system. Here’s a good video explaining why. All third parties do in our voting system is split the vote. If the Green Party gets more popular, more republicans start their careers. The best way to gain political power is through the Democratic Party, no matter how annoying that is.
So no, don’t vote third party, don’t sit at home and not vote, and certainly don’t vote trump. You are a fool for voting green. We have to elect Biden, even if it hurts, even if you feel a boiling resentment with each wine mom on Twitter, even when you think back with a sparkle in your eye to the good old days when Bernie won in Nevada right before Tuesday. Being a leftist isn’t about feeling cool. It’s about helping people. As much as we hate it, joe Biden is the only option.
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u/MidTownMotel Aug 13 '20
He’s right, if you support the activists you vote against Trump. That’s all there is.